Sir MadogPaul - buy a Euro 800 Big Boy from Marklin and put the loco on code 100 track, push it gently over the track and you can feel each tie plate and nail!Unless you put new fine scale wheels to your locos and cars, code 70 is out of question, code 83 is ok with NEM flanges.
Paul - buy a Euro 800 Big Boy from Marklin and put the loco on code 100 track, push it gently over the track and you can feel each tie plate and nail!
Unless you put new fine scale wheels to your locos and cars, code 70 is out of question, code 83 is ok with NEM flanges.
Why use a Maerklin Big Boy, surely the correct model would be a Trix with optional RP25 wheels? The introduction of the NEM 362 close coupling interface also means that coupling compatibility is no longer an issue as the coupling head can be swapped for any type, including Kadee.
Only Maerklinists have issues with compatibility as their system is unique to Maerklin* and Hag, real model railway modellers use 2-rail despite Maerklin's dominance of the German market.
TH
*It should be remembered that Maerklin is first and foremost a toy manufacturer and it caters predominately for that market.
--- mainly BRAWA!
There are a number of small makers of highly detailed, custom models, like Micro Metakit, Modellbahnmanufaktur Crottendorf, Weinert (for white metal kits, but way above the old Bowser kits) - fantastic models, but even in Germany, you need that "rich uncle in America" to be able to buy one of those $ 2000 + models.
I consider Roco, Brawa, Hag, Fleischmann as "premium" brands with prices commonly in the range of $ 300 - $ 500. Much more than your BLI $119 + decoder SD40-2 w/sound!Compared to German prices, US is the paradise! And your are right, in terms of value for money, the likes of Atlas, Athearn, Kato are superior, even with the still prevailing quality issues.
Buying directly in the US does not really give us an advantage - we have few, but very active importers who carry US outline mrr stuff at reasonable prices.
Looking at the price level of European mrr equipment in the US, it seems to me, that they do not only charge the manufacturer's MSRP, but also generously add an allowance for the exchange rate...
Slowly building a layout since 2007!
Ulrich
a question and a remark
The layouts build by Bernd Schmid aus Munchen, Rolf Ertmer (Repa Bahn) or from Herr Wientgen had outstanding scenery. Trackplanning was not state of the art. The development of the layouts of Bernd and Rolf however were amazing. Rolf Ertmer developped his own line of track because he didn't like the offerings of Marklin and Fleishmann. Still all these layouts were wide.
So the questions;
are reach in problems typical American? or do we accept akward derailments as a fact of life? As a teen I once ran a train in a tunnel, on my uncle's layout, though it was forbidden to do because of track problems. On birthday party's, the story is still be told.
is, even in the 500 euro prize range, still equipment being offered that can't be run on code 70 track?
BTW a very nice Atlantic indeed.
Paul
This has been a really interesting discussion. We do see quite a bit of cross-pollination between here and Europe, particularly in scenery techniques, but there's no doubt that the styles are different. Here are a few observations:
1 The "one town with staging" approach is a great way to have realistic scenery and realistic operation in a small space. My current layout and the one before both used that approach and I've really enjoyed it.
2. The level of detail and the number of features on model locomotives probably depend as much on what price a manufacturer wants to sell the locomotive for as on any other factors. We (and the Europeans) have far more brands than train factories, and even firms that have their own factories often outsource production to others.
3. I'm pretty sure that the East German railways ran quite a bit of steam into the late 1980s, though they may have announced an official end to steam operation before that.
4. Ulrich is absolutely right about couplers being a challenge for modelers of European railroads. They're not all compatible and most are pretty large. Add to that the split between the 2-rail DC and 3-rail Marklin systems and things can get pretty complicated for Euro modelers.
Thanks for reading MR,
Terry
Robert - that Atlantic is a class S9 passenger steamer of the former Royal Prussian Railway Administration (Koenigl. Preussische Eisenbahnverwaltung - KPEV), built around 1910. Despite of its sleek look, the design was not really successful and only a small number were built. Their service life ended about 15 years later.
The model is by BRAWA ( http://www.brawa.de/en/products/h0/locomotives/steam-locomotives/40270-s9-preussen.html ), superbly made, but out of reach in terms of price. In Germany it sells for about 550 Euros, that´s $ 730.00! Off course, it´s DCC and sound and you should not have a problem to run it on code 100 rail, even code 83 is fine.
Paulus - sorry for misquoting you - it was Stein, who wrote something like it!
I fell in love with US outline model railroading after I opened my first copy of MR 40 years ago. Since then, I am especially fond of those big articulated steamers and the F- and E-type diesels, best in a A-B-A consist! I do not care much about those GP´s and SD´s with their box-like utility design, but that´s my personal choice.
Buying US locos was out of reach in those days - brass locos were about $100 - the weekly spending income of my father. US model railroading was very much advanced in those days, but; IMHO, the Europeans have covered a lot of ground, since.
Normal 0 MicrosoftInternetExplorer4 st1\:*{behavior:url(#ieooui) } I do not believe in the separation of American and European model railways.
For years, cross-pollination has been in progress, cultures have exchanged ideas and concepts, only the subject matter has differed. Neither is better than t'other, just different. I am building a room sized layout based on 'less is more' principles whilst the subject matter is German and the scenic techniques are American. The concept would be instantly recognisable as a shelf layout with a continuous circuit designed for home and Expo use- very much the British practice.
For a wonderful layout that is the epitome of German modelling, I suggest that this layout is possibly one of the finest: http://www.forsten-online.de/navi/00-en.htm
I am impressed. What is this big Atlantic? Brawa? Prototype? Cost in USD? Is it two-rail DC? I love Atlantics, and that loco looks great to me. I could turn down the flanges to RP25 depth, no problem there.
Dear Ulrich,
Sir Madogmay be still that roughly 2 m by 1 m
I never said that line; but
Sir MadogAll manufacturers offer easy to install 1-2-3 track sets to just build that (and my LHS man tells me that this is what is being sold).
My LHS told me the very same, even he said " When I sell my customers those trainsets or tracksets they'll come back, when I sell them flex track and peco switches they'll never return".
Sir MadogWhen it comes to reliability, nothing beats Marklin, IMHO.
I still have my Marklin trainset, got it when I was 10, so it must be 54 years old. My youngest (8 yrs) puts the track on the floor, dad connects the "trafo" and it still runs and runs and runs. Never did some maintenance.
I always loved the John Armstrong approach. If you can't buy it make it. So I was very pleased to hear about someone on this forum who tinkered for a month to get a switch working properly. Going beyond the ready to run or shake the box mentality, attracted me to American model railroading. And a bit of Californian Dreaming (tnx the Mamma's and the Pappa's) came in. Why dreaming of a rainy England, Holland or Germany if can dream about the Sunny State. Why dream about the DB or the NS or GW with their drab colours if you can dream about the Santa Fe.
In Europe the DB has merely interchanges with the DB; drab colours are interchanged with the very same drab colours. I imagine my Port of Amsterdam layout in the Bay Area, so interchanges with the SF, UP, SP and WP can be made. Untill the European Common Market was founded in the 50's international traffic was scarce. Germans bought German cars, Italians bought Fiat, the French their Peugeots; it took almost 50 years to get us buying from abroad. Interstate traffic is relatively old in the USA..
rxanand Overall, I prefer American outline models: In terms of detailing and running quality, Kato, Atlas, Proto 2k and Athern are light years ahead of the Europeans.
Really?
Check this:
or this:
and a last one:
You may be right when looking at older Marklin/Fleischmann locos, but Brawa, Roco and others are by far superior to what I have ever seen in the US market, other than hand made brass locos. And we talk mass produced locos only...
http://www.bronneim.de/Bahnhof/bahnhof.php
Linked
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
Here´s an example of german model railroading in perfection:
http://www.bronneim.de/Bahnhof/bahnhof.php Slide show on the lower left side.
And yes, its HO scale!
I'm not that familiar with continental modelling, but it seems one difference between US and UK model railroads is the scope of what they try to represent. British layouts - even large ones - seem to try to model one particular area, like a junction or a part of a particular city in great detail. In the US, we tend to try to fit five cities into the same space, so a train will sometimes be in two cities at once. I recall a track plan in MR not too long ago that had like three passenger stations for three different cities...on a 4' x 8' HO layout !!
The British modellers, probably because they usually have smaller layouts, seem to love superdetailing everything and doing great weathering jobs. British modeller Martyn Welch's "The Art of Weathering" is the best book I've ever seen on weathering.
I received my first copy of MR in 1969, and although I could not really read the text (1 year of English language in school was not sufficient to understand), the pictures I saw put me in a state of awe. Those huge layouts! Those fantastic looking structures. And those highly detailed brass locos! I looked at my Marklin stuff and packed it away for years...
But was, and still is, what I saw and still see published in MR and other fine mags, layout reality? Or are the masterpieces we see the exception, but not the rule?
Paulus Jas has stated, that the average layout (continental Europe) may be still that roughly 2 m by 1 m sized table top layout, single or double lap, two or three sidings and some spurs to a freight station or a loco shed. All manufacturers offer easy to install 1-2-3 track sets to just build that (and my LHS man tells me that this is what is being sold).
How´s that in the US/Canada? Is it the 4 by 8, single lap, 1 siding, 4 - 5 spurs layout made with Atlas Snap-Track or Bachmann E-Z Track? If, so, the difference in average mrr practice would not be that great, would it?
Btw, after pausing for nearly two decades (career, getting married, starting a family, building a home), I tried my long dormant skills on a 2m by 1 m layout, out-and-back design, with a hidden staging yard. For reasons of nostalgia I chose Marklin C-Track and their proprietary digital command system. When it comes to reliability, nothing beats Marklin, IMHO.
CNJ831 I've seen quite a number of small British "layouts" that are simply a single amazingly detailed station scene, with totally unscenicked, viewblocked, fiddle yards at either end. It reminds me somewhat of single HO or N-Track modules but executed to a far, far higher standard. These relatively small scenes are often museum quality, many of which are head and shoulders above U.S. layouts appearing in the magazines. Many of these European train scenes are so well done that, without careful examination, they can easily be taken for the real thing!
I agree here with CNJ and Ulrich. Those modular layouts--which I'm guessing are much greater in detail than anything I've seen here---now, mind, I'm talking about where I live. I suspect that a LDE could be turned into such a thing as a ISL---but on a much higher level of detail work. Even the lighting effects are something to behold on these things---
Hi
From the first time I saw MR.magazine in a hobby shop, 45 years ago, I was stunned. I must have been very lucky indeed; it covered the first presentation ever of the CS by John Armstrong. So different from those Marklin multiple loop (or lap??) plans. So many new things like numbered switches, code 100 track and RP25 wheels. And Linn Westcott daring to tell readers how to build an interesting pike. (or a boring pike: every track parallel to the wall, etc)
In Germany exists Miniatur Bahnen, the German MR-magazine; I bought my first some 50 years ago. Their view on scenery building was amazing. PitPeg wrote a booklet in which he made four points I'll never forget.1) get rid off the table top. Their is more under the RR the above. 2) RR's are built in the foothills, not over the mountains(peaks) 3) RR's are build outside existing city's and have their own environment. (no tracks along midieval buildings) and 4) don't over do selective compression. The last one becomes clear when you remember the good old day's: building the Mont Blanc on the corner of a 6x4. and running modern coaches over 14" curves. He was one of the first looking for big industry's in stead of barnsized cuties. The booklet dates from 1962 and also showed the wonders of flextrack, like easements, big radii and even cosmetic curves.
European railroads may be looking great, but are very hard to model. I am living near the old main line to the east from Amsterdam. Trains are going as far as Berlin, in former days to Moscow. Today 11 trains to the east and 11 trains to west are (level) crossing the roads in Bussum; every hour of the day from 6 am till midnight. Not to mention extra's. My little son is like me, daddy wait.... just till the next train. All running 70 miles an hour if possible. Imagine the size of the staging yard you'll need and how brief their appearence will be on a small pike. New trains running 150 miles an hour (or even 200) can't be mixed with the other trains on so heavely used tracks.
One year ago an Austrian model railroad was covered in model railroad planning(2008). As good EU's do, Franz Reichl build the passanger part of Ottakring, a Vianna suburb. Three pictures were provided; the last one made it clear; I've become an American living in Europe. That back yard alley, with a team track in the middle and the small railroad related businesses and freight houses along side: they should be the focus of the layout. Not the posh intercity that's gone before you could even blink an eye. The local carefully avoiding trucks, running at walking speed; placing a boxcar at the right spot; this is the kind of railroading overlooked so much; but so well suited to small pikes. It took so many years before I could see the grandeur of scenes like these. Many are gone to day; on both sides of the pond I feel a growing love for those small scenes.
The German solution has been a "double" layout. Build a branchline for operation but add a huge underground staging area and a "parade strecke" (parade ground). Just a visible double-tracked stretch of track for a well groomed passenger train or a long freight.
selectorLarge basement empires are very much the exception on this side of the Big Murk as well.
I must just be really lucky to live where I do. There are dozens, yes dozens of American Model Railroad Basement Empires within a 30 mile drive of where I sit. And that only counts the guys I know. There may well be many more.
Here in the Mid Atlantic of the USA the "average" home is between 1500 and 2500 sq ft and most have basements below not counted in that size. So many, many people of average means have the space.
After that you only need the interest, the means and the blessing of the Mrs.
In our local round robin group of about 15 regulars, at least half have a basement sized layout or are in the process of building one. Everyone of these is within 10 miles of me.
Our little group is far from being the beginning or end of modeling in our area.
There are to be sure lots of guys with smaller layouts, but 500 to 1000 sq ft or bigger layouts are quite common.
Every fall there is a regional open house circuit of layouts from DC to Phily, a total of 50 to 100 I would say, most pretty large, all open to vistors, for most of November and early December.
Within a short drive from here there are also some well known, well published mega layouts, some of those layout owners post here from time to time.
And many of the unpublished "hidden" large layouts around here are as good as the ones in the magizines.
Sheldon
Just a few comments based in no order:
Large basement empires are very much the exception on this side of the Big Murk as well.
If Europeans seem to gravitate toward purely passenger service depictions (and why wouldn't they in view of their wonderful pax systems with all the exposure they get?) then it stands to reason that they would model what they see...and that is carefully maintained and groomed rolling stock and engines. Weathering seems to have been more evident (more being a relative term) in N. America.
European and British railways developed in slightly different ways with different requirements than they did in N. America. Per J. Vance, Jr. (1995), rights of way in England were more easily available, and generally easier in grade with modest tonnages. Established markets were in place. In, N. America, the railroads actually created the various subs and communities as they went along and had more challenges due to distances and terrain, including making heavier and more powerful engines to take those tonnages over steeper grades. The "look" and "feel" for railroading in the two places is substantially different, and that is plain to those who have witnessed and used them.
Any classification system has a utility commensurate with its acceptance and enduring nature as the subject area, itself, develops and is understood. If the demarcations become too abstract or devolved from advances in learning about the nature of the subject, those demarcations will eventually fall into disuse as they are supplanted by others with more utility. We should understand that demarcations that make sense in one milieu may not make sense in another. European rail history doesn't necessarily closely mirror N. American rail history.
Lastly, I sure admire the abilities in both places in those who have mastered their various ways of modelling. British and European rail magazines provide ample proof that their hobbies are advanced and robust...a comfort to anyone who likes model railroading, surely.
-Crandell
Era names and dates make sense only if they are associated with commonly agreed upon historical events. For instance, I model 1944-45 (late WWII) only, with certain throwbacks for special occasions. So I'm not really a "transition era" modeler, as I don't have anything after 1945, but I do have a number of NH diesels on my railroad, as the NH was among the first to dieselize. I also don't model 1939-43, which is also WWII. I have to pay attention to freight and passenger car history to make sure I don't have the wrong cars on the railroad. It would be a great thing if all rolling stock was packaged with the years on the box, but the freight cars are marked by year anyway (BLT and NEW dates). Some equipment was built earlier than the NEW date, as the NEW date shows only when the car was last rebuilt.
CNJ831I've seen quite a number of small British "layouts" that are simply a single amazingly detailed station scene, with totally unscenicked, viewblocked, fiddle yards at either end. It reminds me somewhat of single HO or N-Track modules but executed to a far, far higher standard. These relatively small scenes are often museum quality, many of which are head and shoulders above U.S. layouts appearing in the magazines.
I believe the one very detailed scene with unscenicked viewblocked fiddle yards at either end is a British speciality.
They do it darned well, too, as can be seen by looking e.g. at the layouts of Jon Grant or looking at rmweb.co.uk.
Another thing that is popular at least some places in Europe is modular layouts where each modeler build one or two standard modules (e.g. according to the FREMO H0 standard), and then a bunch of people get together to run trains on a bigger combined layout.
(linked from http://www.mjf.no/forum/)
Planned era for the meet is august 1959, theme is SE Norwegian mainline towards the border with Sweden (so one also can run Swedish rolling stock on international trains), plus side lines, the attendance is capped at max 50 participants, and they will be using rolling stock with RP-25 wheels, and run freight using car cards and waybills.
Here is a link to a web page with some pictures of a smaller setup of FREMO modules at another occation: http://blog.tmjk.no/?p=918
There are also people around here who model narrow gauge modules (H0e modules). Here are some picture of narrow gauge Norwegian H0e modules from a modular event in Oslo in February 2009:
(Pictures linked from http://www.torsja.com/)
As you can observe - weathered cars and buildings.
I am not saying that this is the norm - what everybody who builds a layout is doing.
The "typical" home layout is probably a 105 cm x 210 cm (41" x 82") rectangular piece of wood with a track oval, using Märklin C track (sectional track with molded plastic ballast), with maybe two spurs, where German prototype steam, electric or diesel locomotives are pulling a train of maybe 3-4 passenger cars around pretty sharp curves.
Most Märklin engines and rolling stock easily can pretty easily go around 37.5 cm (14.7") radius curves, so a turnaround curve can be done in about 80 cm (31"), as shown in this little temporary layout I put up in a corner of our living room for my youngest son's birthday back in november of 2007:
Grin, Stein
Indeed, a most interesting thread from our friend Ulrich. I do think, however, that he has somewhat glossed over what, from my own observation of European model railroading, is the thing that distinctly sets it appart from the way the hobby is practiced over here in The States. While most U.S. hobbyists model some sort of broad section of a rail line, implying that the layout represents a wide expanse of territory, a very high percentage of European modelers seem to concentrate much more on depicting a single interesting scene and its immediate surroundings. I've seen quite a number of small British "layouts" that are simply a single amazingly detailed station scene, with totally unscenicked, viewblocked, fiddle yards at either end. It reminds me somewhat of single HO or N-Track modules but executed to a far, far higher standard. These relatively small scenes are often museum quality, many of which are head and shoulders above U.S. layouts appearing in the magazines. Many of these European train scenes are so well done that, without careful examination, they can easily be taken for the real thing!
CNJ831
simon1966 GraffenWouldn´t it be nice if the US mfg´s started to use the era-classifications. Then it would be much easier to know when the equipment was used. It would be great to be browsing in a hobby shop and know from the box what era something would come from. This would be particularly helpful when starting out in the hobby.
GraffenWouldn´t it be nice if the US mfg´s started to use the era-classifications. Then it would be much easier to know when the equipment was used.
It would be great to be browsing in a hobby shop and know from the box what era something would come from. This would be particularly helpful when starting out in the hobby.
Nice idea but it still leaves lot of room for errors. Better that manufacturers should label cars with unique info like first year built, last year of common use, rather than some system of eras.
The problem with set eras is the dividing points. what about a car or loco type developed right at the end of an set "era"? It is not correct for the begining of that era, which could be 5, 10 or more years before?
Or, to than classify it in the next era because that is the era of common use, would raise questions about first production, accuracy of use by modelers of earlier periods, etc.
I can just see the discussions on here now.
I use a single year, if it did not exist in that calender year, you won't find it here.
On the Atlantic Central it is 1954.
Pardon me for getting carried away with the topic, but there is one more issue I have nearly forgotten to address - it´s couplers!
In the US, all of the couplers, be it Kadee (my all-time favorite), Accumate, McHenry etc. are more or less compatible. In Europe we are light years behind this. Each manufacturer still has his own, proprietary system, which is, naturally, not at all compatible. The NEM (Europe´s counterpart to the US NMRA) has, at last and alas, achieved, that coupler mounting is standardized, so fitting your favorite coupler is done in seconds.
The looks of whatever coupling system is just awkward and has no resemblance to either the old hook-and-screw couplers used by the prototype, nor the newer Scharffenberg couplers used on European highspeed trains. There are scale hook-and-screw couplers in HO available, but automatic coupling/uncoupling is a no-no if you intend to use them. They look dang real, though.
simon1966GraffenWouldn´t it be nice if the US mfg´s started to use the era-classifications. Then it would be much easier to know when the equipment was used. It would be great to be browsing in a hobby shop and know from the box what era something would come from. This would be particularly helpful when starting out in the hobby.
Manufacturers like Marklin, Roco etc. use pictograms on their web pages and sometimes packaging to explain the product, also which "epoch" the models belongs to.
Just an example:
Edit:
UK modeling practice is different again - lotsa a kit building, lotsa small show layouts (well, sometimes not so small, see Jon Grants "Sweet Home Chicago" and his new layout "Sweet Home Alabama"). I guess, continental Europe is pretty much like Germany. UK layouts look odd to us, as German layouts look probably odd to them. UK layouts are often even smaller than German layouts - just station to fiddle yard, but with a tremendous attention to detail and realism.
Scales and gauges used in Germany are HO, HOe (9mm track NG), HOm (12 mm track NG),TT, N, Nm (6,5 mm track NG), Z. Off course there is still O, Oe, Om, 1, 1f, G etc. TT was very popular in the "old" GDR and now sees its revival in the West as well.
I gather there is also a lot of difference between European and UK modeling. I have drop in on the RMWeb forum, a UK based forum, and I would say that UK modeling is significantly different from what you describe in Germany, with much more emphasis on kit building and detailing and less RTR, especially with scenery and structures. there seems to be more emphasis on weathering. After reading your description of your view of modeling, a comment I read on that forum really jumped out at me. They were discussing using RTR or stock built structures, scenery and accessories vs. scratchbuilt or kitbashed ones and the comment was made that if you used a lot of stock structures, trees and accessories, it would look like a "German" layout.
Another thing that struck me was the differences in scales and gauges in the UK (HO, OO, O , 7mm and a rainbow of narrow gauges based using standard gauge track from other scales). Are German modelers also using a wide array of scale/gauge combinations?
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
Nice topic! There is some big differences between the US and Europe when it comes to the building bit as well, there seems to be more demand in the US for craftsman kits, wich in turn leads to weathering and so on and so forth. I think that the US way is more "interesting", and what has probably captured my interest.
Wouldn´t it be nice if the US mfg´s started to use the era-classifications. Then it would be much easier to know when the equipment was used.
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That's mostly in line with my experience in Germany in the 70's. Nearly every layout I saw had clean immaculate locos and rolling stock and the track was virtually spotless. My layout (which I had built here before going to Germany) was something new and different to many who looked at it. They were fascinated by the flat distressed paint jobs for the most part and the rusty rails were a constant attention getter. While many liked what they saw they siad they wouldn't do it to their own because it just wasn't done there. Weathering seemed to be pretty much a US practice.
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Dave,
the Germans have a tendency to over-organize things quite a bit. This goes also for model railroading. The different eras are classified as follows:
It seems to me, that epoch III and IV are the most modeled eras, as you can enjoy steam as well as oldimer and newer electrics, as well as contemp. diesels. The end of the steam era took place in 1977 (West Germany) and 1982 (East Germany).