I've noticed in both HO and G scale, that the latest steam locomotives from manufacturers seem to be mostly gigantic ones--Challengers, Big Boys, 4-12-2s and such.
It's particularly weird in G--lots of narrow-gauge stuff, and Big Boys, with hardly anything between the extremes, other than the Aristo Mike and Pacific.
Where are the mid-size engines? The ones that 1) constituted the vast majority of working prototypes and 2) will fit on any layout, not just basement empires with humongous curves.
I'm new here, so I may be slapping a dead equine, but I wonder what the rest of you think about this. Am I mistaken?
Welcome!
No, you are uncannily right. Over the past three or more years, many long-time modellers have lamented the fact that variations on the Mikado, Consolidation, Pacific, and other classes have fallen out of market favour with many wondering if it is because they are no longer offered, and that simple, or that they are really not in demand that much.
-Crandell
punder I've noticed in both HO and G scale, that the latest steam locomotives from manufacturers seem to be mostly gigantic ones--Challengers, Big Boys, 4-12-2s and such. It's particularly weird in G--lots of narrow-gauge stuff, and Big Boys, with hardly anything between the extremes, other than the Aristo Mike and Pacific. Where are the mid-size engines? The ones that 1) constituted the vast majority of working prototypes and 2) will fit on any layout, not just basement empires with humongous curves. I'm new here, so I may be slapping a dead equine, but I wonder what the rest of you think about this. Am I mistaken?
That horse has been slapped soo many times it's a Donkey. They''re out there. G scale tends to be non-protoypical looking, so people don't mind freakishly cool/huge engines. in HO, they;re just weird.
Check Proto, Spectrum, Roundhouse others for smaller engines.
-Morgan
Welcome
Most of us modelers has been asking the same question for a long time. Modern modelers have it rather easy. Diesels of many different sizes. Us steam guys need more 2-8-0, 2-6-2, 0-6-0 and so on and so forth. Especially the Pennsy guys. Besides Bowser and BLI there is very few Belpair boilers that we can use.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
Welcome to the forum!
There is a lot of discussion about the issue. There seems to be a demand but not every manufacturer sees that. Bachmann seems to be one of the few that have, more consistantly, come out with reasonably priced units though--at least in HO and N scale.One, of many possible reasons is the 'Collector' market --ie; those who buy the locomotive more for the aesthetic appeal than for running.
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
This discussion has been going on for a long time now. It would only seem logical that those engines which numerically dominated the various railroads would be fairly represented.
However that does not seem to be the case. The manufactures seem to favour the more unique engines such as the "Challengers" and the "Big boys". They do sell well and that is what matters.
This logic though, at least in the HO market is not being followed by Bachmann who in their Spectrum line have produced well detailed smaller engines at affordable prices.
Over the past month I've had the opportunity to visit a couple of layouts in my area. One had curves in the 22 to 24 inch range and the other just a tad larger. One of the setups featured diesels from about 1985 forward and the other was mostly steam with some of the early diesels. As you might have guessed, just about all the steam was big, very big. The diesels were of the smaller variety, meaning I didn't see any AC 6000's, but all the rolling stock was of the modern vintage....., 50 foot boxcars were the shortest. It didn't faze the owners at all that their equipment didn't look quite right on the smaller curves, they were running what they liked. What ever floats your boat!
I've found most of my smaller steam at Bachmann with one Mikado coming from BLI. But now, if you've got a big layout with big curves the y6's, big boys and challengers look great!
Jarrell
Disclaimer: Nothing wrong with big engines. I love 'em. But you can't populate a "prototypical" layout with nothing but the prototype's largest engines, especially if you haven't won the lottery lately!
Punder:
I'm one of the HO guys who run big engines, but then I've got the radii (34" minimum) where they look OK. One of my friends on this Forum has referred to me as the "King of the Articulateds" because of my propensity for those big critters (four 4-6-6-4's, four 2-8-8-4's, five 2-8-8-2's, four 4-8-8-2's and a couple of 'little' 2-6-6-0's and 2-6-6-2's).
But despite all that huge stuff running around on my Yuba River Sub, I will be the first to join in and say YES, we need more 2-8-0, 4-6-0, 2-6-2, and especially some 2-8-2 and 4-6-2 locos that AREN'T USRA!
There really should be a market out there for them, but let me put it this way: Except for some of we Old Farts who REMEMBER steam in either its heyday or Transitional Period, a lot of newer model railroaders collect (and hopefull run) the Big Steam because they mistakenly think that's what the railroads really ran, mostly, during the steam era.
Not true. The workhorses on most railroads were the small to medium or medium-large wheel arrangements. The Big Stuff was specialized for particular divisions on a lot of railroads. And those Big Stuff locos were in most cases specific to the railroad. Southern Pacific never had a 2-6-6-6 Allegheny any more than Chesapeake and Ohio ever sported a 4-8-8-2 Cab Forward. But both railroads sported some really handsome 2-8-2 and 4-6-2 types. And a lot of them. They were the more numerous workhorses of those railroads, and were the SOLE workhorses of a lot of other rail lines.
Hey, I LIKE running my big power, and I've got the MR with the grades and curves to do it. But I sure as Heck don't ignore my smaller power. There's nothing that brings a smile to my face quicker than one of my little chunky 2-8-0's waltzing out of my yard with a 5-10 car 'turn' that I can really 'work' along the way, or a sweet little 4-6-0 or 4-6-2 with my local passenger that stops at every fishing hole along my route. And I like it when one of my 2-8-2's decides to take a medium freight up the grade from Deer Creek to Yuba Summit and prove that it can be done.
We really need more small/medium steam power. And a little more 'specific' that can be easily adapted to what we want to see. Bachmann does a nice job. Now if we can talk some of the other mfgrs. into medium power that ISN'T a USRA clone (how about Harriman, which is very easily adaptable to a lot of roads?), then I'll be just as happy a camper as anyone else.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
There seems to be pretty much all the wheel arrangements covered in HO. What exactly are you looking for?
I think the issue here is that the Big Boys et al get more press and tend to be favored on display layouts at train shows.
Enjoy
Paul
IRONROOSTER There seems to be pretty much all the wheel arrangements covered in HO. What exactly are you looking for? I think the issue here is that the Big Boys et al get more press and tend to be favored on display layouts at train shows. Enjoy Paul
Paul,
While all the various wheel arangements may be "covered", the wheel arangements most prolific on the prototype are pooly represented by the few available models.
The 2-8-0 was the single most prolific wheel arangement in North Amercia, yet we have only one decent model on the market? What about all the other prototype versions of that wheel arangement?
Same is true for 4-6-2's, 2-8-2's, 4-6-0's. these where the work a day locos of the steam era yet they are poorly represented in the available models.
Sure, there is a 4-6-2 if you model the PRR, so many in fact you get a headache choosing which one to buy, but if you model any other road, you are out of luck.
The only 2-8-2's are USRA lights and heavies, hardly the beginning or end of the 2-8-2.
I don't buy this idea that these same locos are the only ones that sell. In fact, I own over 100 locomotives and don't own any of the following: UP Big Boy, PRR K4, UP Challenger, N&W J, UP FEF, NYC Hudson, SP Cab Forward, SP GS4.
Yet these locos are produced over and over by the same and different manufacturers to the exclusion of other types.
As for what modelers may be looking for, I will repeat my list again: DT&I 800 class 2-8-2, B&O President class 4-6-2's both as built and moderized, ANY Camelback, 4-4-2, 4-6-2, 2-8-0, ANY modern 4-6-0.
There are many others, these are just a few ideas. Any of these locos should appeal to lots of modelers and knowledgeable collectors as well.
It is not just a question of large vs small, it is about prolific vs rare (Big Boys's were rare - only 25 examples) Many railroads had dozens and dozens of the same or very similar classes of these other wheel arangements.
And dispite road specific differences, many of these small/medium sized locos where based on standard designs from the big builders, so model manufacturers could build one frame and boiler and apply different road specific details for several or possibly even dozens of different proto accurate models.
Only the UP had Big Boys, and by now I'm sure enough have been produced for everyone active in the hobby to have all 25 examples, but they still have not sold me one. I don't collect and I don't model the UP.
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRALAs for what modelers may be looking for, I will repeat my list again: DT&I 800 class 2-8-2, B&O President class 4-6-2's both as built and moderized, ANY Camelback, 4-4-2, 4-6-2, 2-8-0, ANY modern 4-6-0.
As an aside--in Ian Wilson's "Steam Over Palmerston"(Can, Branchline Miniatures, 2001) most of the photos portray 2-6-0's and 4-6-0's. If someone was to try to model the era/time( in this case June 1954) s/he would have a fair amount of work ahead of them trying to find those two, This was a branchline afterall, not mainline operations---and even then most running the mainlines were no large beasties like the challengers et al.
And again, the Collector trend is there----
Hi!
I sure do agree! I would love to get my hands on HO ATSF mid size steam locos!
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Road specific steam has always been hit or miss for other than the PRR and maybe Santa Fe. There are just too many variants for the manufacturers to cover and not enough demand for each. Even for a particular road there are variants.
Still I did find, non-PRR, two 2-8-0's, three 4-6-2's + one coming, four 2-8-2's + 1 coming, one 4-6-0 (in 2 versions). There may be others I missed - it was just a quick search.
I agree that the big steam locomotives available are all out of proportion to what actually ran on the prototype, but I don't think that's at the expense of smaller steam. I suspect that a lot of people just like having one of each wheel arrangement.
Re detailing, kit bashing or scratch building to get a specific steam locomotive has always been the way for most roads.
Personally, I lucked out in S scale. There are only 2 2-8-0's available and one of them comes in 3 versions for the Ma&Pa (41, 42, 43). But the rest of the Ma&Pa roster are future building programs.
Here's a hard economic truth that I've heard from almost every model locomotive manufacturer. In any given scale, it costs them pretty much the same to design, tool, and produce a big engine as a small one. However, they can generally command a higher price for a big engine, because it's, well, bigger.
We should be grateful that some manufacturers recognize that there can sometimes be a greater demand for small to medium-size engines than for the giants. I think that's the main reason why we have any smaller engines available to us. But "big," "bigger," and "biggest" are always great marketing terms, so the big engines keep rolling out.
So long,
Andy
Andy Sperandeo MODEL RAILROADER Magazine
I spend my time (and money!) flitting between various hobbies, and it's the same in every one. From 1/72 to giant-scale RC, finding an F-16 is easy, but try finding a good MiG-23BN, for instance. The serious hobbiests' dreams and the manufacturers' quarterly statements are always in tension, and of course the money wins.
And really, the problem is much worse in large scale. Maybe I should cross-post to Garden Railways!
I would like to see BLI or Athearn focus their attention on adding proper class lights to pre-war steamers, rather than putting their energy towards smoke units, I am a little disappointed in Broadway's Paragon 2 series, I would have to say.
Lets put it this way, I wouldn't mind seeing smaller steam made, if more attention was directed towards detail and realistic operation, and less on sound or smoke gimmicks.
Contrary to what others have stated, I actually think we need more K-4's along with the 2-8-0's that is. Particularly the pre-war 1920s versions though. Doesn't it strike anybody else as odd that MTH put all that work into a die cast model that smokes and has station sounds, yet still has no proper classification lights. Even if they can't light up, why not at the very least do they come with the green jewels that appeared in so many of the early lionel hudsons. Even the Roundhouse mogul has these. It really adds to realism.
If smaller steam were actually made right, I would be first in line to get them. And when on earth will they make a decent colorful little engine like the 4-4-0? The Bachmann ones are a travesty. This has to be one of the most popular old time engines, the plastic $60 ones put out by Bachmann don't do them justice. I hope BLI or Athearn start making these.
rjake4454 I would like to see BLI or Athearn focus their attention on adding proper class lights to pre-war steamers, rather than putting their energy towards smoke units, I am a little disappointed in Broadway's Paragon 2 series, I would have to say. Lets put it this way, I wouldn't mind seeing smaller steam made, if more attention was directed towards detail and realistic operation, and less on sound or smoke gimmicks. ....Doesn't it strike anybody else as odd that MTH put all that work into a die cast model that smokes and has station sounds, yet still has no proper classification lights. Even if they can't light up, why not at the very least do they come with the green jewels that appeared in so many of the early lionel hudsons. Even the Roundhouse mogul has these. It really adds to realism. If smaller steam were actually made right, I would be first in line to get them. And when on earth will they make a decent colorful little engine like the 4-4-0? The Bachmann ones are a travesty. This has to be one of the most popular old time engines, the plastic $60 ones put out by Bachmann don't do them justice. I hope BLI or Athearn start making these.
....Doesn't it strike anybody else as odd that MTH put all that work into a die cast model that smokes and has station sounds, yet still has no proper classification lights. Even if they can't light up, why not at the very least do they come with the green jewels that appeared in so many of the early lionel hudsons. Even the Roundhouse mogul has these. It really adds to realism.
I was staying out of this one, but...
IMHO, class lights are just as much a gimmick as smoke and station sounds, as are directional headlights. All of these are throwbacks to our Lionel animation days when watching our lighted trains run in the dark was the ultimate fun.
Until near the end of steam (and often not then), headlights and class lights were not used during the day. And railroading at night (as was most factory production) was minimized to only that which was necessary. Sufficient light for working through the night was difficult to arrange until the arrival of reasonably priced flourescent lights, and you still had a much higher accident rate. War production needs with minimal infrastructure improvements drove the conversion to 2 and 3 shift operations. Trains ran at night to the extent necessary to return people from day jobs, and because distances caused daylight to run out before miles did.
Similarly, before the advent of widespread central air conditioning, those who could afford to do so left the Atlantic cities for the hills and mountains to escape the heat and humidity in the summer. Life was simply very different back then - daylight, weather, and environment tended to be more important than the clock up until WW2.
But I digress - the main point I wanted to make is that making a very good 4-4-0 in HO is actually quite difficult. Especially if the intended price point is less than that of an articulated. A very good 4-4-0
How many 4-4-0s will you buy at $350 each, even if it had all the above?
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
Actually, I'm surprised that market forces don't drive more production of smaller steam engines. There is one simple fact that can't be avoided - most of us need tight curves to fit our layouts into the small spaces we have for them.
Yes, some of these behemoths will run on 18-inch curves, but they look exceedingly silly doing so. I'm pretty happy with the way my Hudson 4-6-4 runs on my layout. I'm in the market for another mainline steamer, but I've got to make sure that whatever I get will be able to run at mainline speed on my layout.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
IRONROOSTERStill I did find, non-PRR, two 2-8-0's, three 4-6-2's + one coming, four 2-8-2's + 1 coming, one 4-6-0 (in 2 versions). There may be others I missed - it was just a quick search.
OK Paul, help me out here,
2-8-0, Bachmann Spectrum and ? - I have eight of the Spectrum 2-8-0's
4-6-2, IHC 2 versions and ?, plus Roundhouse on the way - I have two of the IHC's and a Roundhouse on pre order. I'll buy more if the first one is a winner.
2-8-2, BLI USRA light and heavy, Spectrum China 1980's prototype (hardly useful for my 1954 era), MTH (won't run on my layout & just a duplication of the BLI USRA light) - I have two BLI USRA heavies kitbashed with different tenders.
4-6-0, Bachmann Spectrum 2 versions - I have two of the large driver version, kitbashed to be more in my era.
Please fill in the question marks.
fwrightHow many 4-4-0s will you buy at $350 each, even if it had all the above?
Fred, all very good points. But I didn't pay $350 for any of my 2-8-8-2's, 2-6-6-2's, 4-8-2's, 4-8-4's, 2-6-6-4's, 2-8-2's, 2-8-0's, etc, etc.
I will and do however pay $150-$250 regardless of loco size for good running well detailed DC locos with out sound that fit my era and layout theme.
And I agree completely about class lights and such.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL fwrightHow many 4-4-0s will you buy at $350 each, even if it had all the above? Fred, all very good points. But I didn't pay $350 for any of my 2-8-8-2's, 2-6-6-2's, 4-8-2's, 4-8-4's, 2-6-6-4's, 2-8-2's, 2-8-0's, etc, etc. I will and do however pay $150-$250 regardless of loco size for good running well detailed DC locos with out sound that fit my era and layout theme. And I agree completely about class lights and such. Sheldon
Your top end of $250 is exactly the lowest price point where I would expect a new tooling 4-4-0 with coreless motor, equalization, stainless tires, as much metal as possible, and a functional pony truck to come in at in the DC, no sound version. Add DCC and sound for the standard $100 markup, and you get my $350 price point.
FWIW, the new MMI HOn3 Baldwin 18-8C 4-4-0 has a pre-production price of $359 (no sound, DCC ready). Allowing an extra $100 for the smaller production run for HOn3 instead of standard gauge makes it about right. But without most of the features I cited that would make the difference between great and good performance. And that was my point - to get equivalent high level of performance from an HO 4-4-0 as compared to a mid-size 2-8-2 requires implementation of all the known best practices for improved performance, not just some of them.
What is interesting to me is that PSC/MMI is getting enough orders for the On3/On30 versions, but not the HOn3 versions of the 4-4-0. It seems (and makes some sense) that there are a lot more O scale folks who like tiny engines than there are HO scale folks who do.
yours in having fun
I don't understand, I thought that class lights were used up until the 1930's. Perhaps I 'thought wrong' but thats what I have read and been told countless times on this forum and on others. True, they were rarely used on the type of steamers I collect like the late J1 and T1, but what about on all those early multistriped K4s from the 20s or on the NYC hudsons? I'm talking about the early days when semaphore signals were still used, if you were modeling this era or before, wouldn't illuminated marker lamps make sense?
My first memory of a train was gazing in awe at the Baldwin 60000 when I was just a child, and the thing that caught my eye and remained etched into my brain to this day were the emerald class lights. To me a steam engine from that time period just isn't the same without these. Illuminated number boards are an attention grabber too.
Anyway, prototypical or not, I just think proper class lights and working marker lamps are a better investment than smoke or station sounds in HO. I'm preaching to the choir on this one, but the manufacturers should know that smoke damages HO layouts, I try running even my O gauge lionels with it, and grease gets everywhere, but my point is that I don't get why companies waste their time with this smoke fluid rather than focusing on marker lamps and class lights, which is the lesser of two evils in model railroading?
On BLI's website they show a pic of the hudson with illuminated class lights, but the actual model is just like before, kind of a let down considering they put the time and money into it puffing smoke, not to mention the lack of quality control. My LHS bought 6 of these new hudsons, 3 puffed smoke with no sound, while 1 other did just the reverse.
rjake4454 I don't understand, I thought that class lights were used up until the 1930's. Perhaps I 'thought wrong' but thats what I have read and been told countless times on this forum and on others. True, they were rarely used on the type of steamers I collect like the late J1 and T1, but what about on all those early multistriped K4s from the 20s or on the NYC hudsons? I'm talking about the early days when semaphore signals were still used, if you were modeling this era or before, wouldn't illuminated marker lamps make sense? My first memory of a train was gazing in awe at the Baldwin 60000 when I was just a child, and the thing that caught my eye and remained etched into my brain to this day were the emerald class lights. To me a steam engine from that time period just isn't the same without these. Illuminated number boards are an attention grabber too.
Class lights were used at night; most railroads used flags instead of lights during the day.
ATLANTIC CENTRALIRONROOSTERStill I did find, non-PRR, two 2-8-0's, three 4-6-2's + one coming, four 2-8-2's + 1 coming, one 4-6-0 (in 2 versions). There may be others I missed - it was just a quick search. OK Paul, help me out here, 2-8-0, Bachmann Spectrum and ? - I have eight of the Spectrum 2-8-0's 4-6-2, IHC 2 versions and ?, plus Roundhouse on the way - I have two of the IHC's and a Roundhouse on pre order. I'll buy more if the first one is a winner. 2-8-2, BLI USRA light and heavy, Spectrum China 1980's prototype (hardly useful for my 1954 era), MTH (won't run on my layout & just a duplication of the BLI USRA light) - I have two BLI USRA heavies kitbashed with different tenders. 4-6-0, Bachmann Spectrum 2 versions - I have two of the large driver version, kitbashed to be more in my era. Please fill in the question marks. Sheldon
2-8-0 Roundhouse.
4-6-2 Mantua Metal Products (Walthers has them listed for back order, but some dealers have them -
http://www.enginetender.com/455i.htm)
4-6-2 BLI - Walther's lists for adv res.
IRONROOSTER 2-8-0 Roundhouse. 4-6-2 Mantua Metal Products (Walthers has them listed for back order, but some dealers have them - http://www.enginetender.com/455i.htm) 4-6-2 BLI - Walther's lists for adv res.
OK, I forgot the Roundhouse 2-8-0, not in my era so it slipped below my radar.
Mantua 4-6-2's at the Engine and Tender are 5 year old new old stock from before the Model Power take over, not the new ones that have been on the way for two years now. That's OK, it is a good base for a kit bashing project.
BLI, that's a joke, I have grandchildren that have been born and learned to walk and talk in the time since they where announced. BLI is in trouble and scared of MTH for some unexplainable reason, if you ask me. That's why we are seeing retooled Hudsons with MTH like features before we see the long list of "other" stuff promised years ago.
When one of my favorite MR authors responds to a thread I started, I have to respond to that response. So, Andy, thanks for weighing in, and the next time you encounter one of those big-business robber barons (yes, I'm kidding), let them know we need more CPR P1s and G2s! :) And ask them why the heck they think they can sell a steam locomotive model without an Elesco feedwater heater.
Some guys need marker lights. I need an Elesco feedwater heater. It's just who I am.
fwright Class lights were used at night; most railroads used flags instead of lights during the day. Fred W
Ok, thanks, I wasn't aware of that. If you don't mind my asking, how do you feel about marker lamps when properly displayed in HO models? For instance, in a yard or near the engine house, wouldn't HO steamers benefit by having illuminated marker lamps? Apparently MTH got this right, with DCS functions, they can go on or off.