Uuuuuuuuuuuuh... all this N scale talk has got me thinking about small scale again. Two 's up on the pics WM, very nice.
BRAKIE wm3798 Aside from that bland article about the WM layout, it's a pretty good issue! Lee Indeed that was a terribly bland layout..
wm3798 Aside from that bland article about the WM layout, it's a pretty good issue! Lee
Aside from that bland article about the WM layout, it's a pretty good issue!
Lee
Indeed that was a terribly bland layout..
Well for all you established N'ers out there, what would be a good working/viewing height? I know usually shelf style layouts (the only thing I have room for) are usually 12-18 inches deep for N.
The major problems I have with N scale are:1). Availability - The selection of items just isn't there compared to HO. Just look at the Walthers catalog. Their HO catalog is much bigger than their N & Z scale catalog, and one of HO's biggest companies (Athearn) isn't even in it. Which brings me to...
2). Prototype modeling - I am extremely attached to the New Haven RR, since it's my hometown RR and the modern era is rather boring in these parts (other than the Acela). In HO scale, just about every major steam engine, diesel, electric, passenger car, freight car, and caboose has been done. In N scale, not so much. It's much improved, but if I want N scale FL9's, forget about it. If I want accurate NH stainless steel cars, I can't get those, either. And steam? Only Spectrum 4-8-2's, 2-8-0's, and P2K 0-8-0's are even close to being NH prototype. And I don't think there have been any N scale NH electrics at all...ever...in any format. In HO, some of this stuff has only been done in brass, but at least it's out there. I can't say that about N scale. Now if you model a railroad that is well represented in N scale, then you're all set. But it's not for me.
3). Custom painting and decaling - I do a lot of this in HO scale for me and some friends. I can't imagine trying to paint N scale equipment, decaling it, and then adding grabs, horns, et al. I know many people can do it quite well, but I don't think I could take it. HO scale stuff can drive me buggy. N scale would probably peg my meter towards insanity.
4). Operations - Reading car numbers in HO scale is bad enough. In N? Um, sorry, but I left my Optivisor in my other pants. And cutting cars? I've seen people knock HO cars off the track when using a bamboo skewer. N scale cars would probably go flying like movie props from "Twister".
Of course, I don't have to worry much about size constraints. My home HO layout is 25' x 50', and my HO club's layout room is over 6300 sq. ft. (do you hear N-scaler's drooling? I think I do... ).
Paul A. Cutler III <--- Not taking #3 & #4 very seriously, can't you tell? *******************Weather Or No Go New Haven*******************
Valid points, all, Paul. But some of those "challenges" are what make N scale so appealing to me! Until only very recently, the Western Maryland wasn't very well represented at all in the locomotive department. In fact, I was pretty settled in with modeling Conrail during the Paint Out Era up until Atlas released the SD-35 in WM paint. Heck, it took almost 20 years to get a decent plastic caboose that was halfway right.
There are a lot of suitable locomotives available now that I've accumulated, but I've had to paint just about all of them. The main exceptions are the aforementioned SD-35's (available in both black and circus), Atlas GP-35, and Intermountain F-7. If you can still find them, LifeLike did the BL-2, which was sort of an iconic WM diesel right up to the end, and there have been lesser models of the FA-2 and F?? by Lifelike. But I've painted up and lettered my own RS-3 fleet, and I've started building chop nose GP 7's and 9's. Being able to print one's own decals is a major plus, since Micro Scale has very limited offerings for both freight cars and locomotives. I'm an operator, so I don't mess around with super detailing, odds are I'd break it off. I have built some customized engines, such as the choppers, an RS-3 hammerhead, and even a WM K-2 steamer. None are prize winners, but they all suit my purposes just fine, and from 3' away, who cares! In HO, it's a lot more obvious if your details are missing or in the wrong place.
For operations, I don't fool around with bamboo sticks, everything on the layout is in easy reach, so I pretty much just grab the car and go. That probably costs me points with someone somewhere, but so far they haven't been invited to my ops sessions...
As far as availability goes, that's never bothered me. HO has an embarrassment of riches, and most of it is RTR off the rack stuff. That's fine for those who dig that sort of thing, but I prefer the challenge of "rolling my own" and do a lot of scratch building to get what I want. Other than their outstanding prebuilt turntable, a farmers co-op and another building I got in an auction, I don't have ANY Walther's kits on my layout. As a result, I have a lot more money to spend on detail parts and window and door castings that I can use on my scratchbuild projects. (I also make my own trees...)
So is N scale a little harder to deal with? Probably is. But if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen!
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
MILW-RODR Uuuuuuuuuuuuh... all this N scale talk has got me thinking about small scale again. Two 's up on the pics WM, very nice. BRAKIE wm3798 Aside from that bland article about the WM layout, it's a pretty good issue! Lee Indeed that was a terribly bland layout.. Was it really that bad? I mean I know the article itself was a tad dry but I didn't think the layout was all that bad. I will have to look when I get home, after this thread was started I went back over all my MR back issues the last year or so and took out all the issues with featured N scale layouts to reread (for at least the 4th time). IIRC there wasn't as much switchi....oooooooooh. Never mind [:|] Well for all you established N'ers out there, what would be a good working/viewing height? I know usually shelf style layouts (the only thing I have room for) are usually 12-18 inches deep for N.
LOL!! No,I was agreeing Lee as a joke...
I fully agree its a nice layout and I really like the Laurel Valley...
For me a good working/viewing height is around 36"..Perfect for me when seated.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Paul,Good points but,let's look closer.
1). Availability - The selection of items just isn't there compared to HO. Just look at the Walthers catalog. Their HO catalog is much bigger than their N & Z scale catalog, and one of HO's biggest companies (Athearn) isn't even in it.
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Huh Paul,Walthers doesn't carry Athearn in HO or N..I know you already knew that but,figured you had a old timers second...
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Prototype modeling - I am extremely attached to the New Haven RR, since it's my hometown RR and the modern era is rather boring in these parts (other than the Acela). In HO scale, just about every major steam engine, diesel, electric, passenger car, freight car, and caboose has been done. In N scale, not so much. It's much improved, but if I want N scale FL9's, forget about it. If I want accurate NH stainless steel cars, I can't get those, either. And steam? Only Spectrum 4-8-2's, 2-8-0's, and P2K 0-8-0's are even close to being NH prototype. And I don't think there have been any N scale NH electrics at all...ever...in any format. In HO, some of this stuff has only been done in brass, but at least it's out there. I can't say that about N scale. Now if you model a railroad that is well represented in N scale, then you're all set. But it's not for me.
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I agree but,there is NYC,PRR,C&O,Santa Fe,UP,Rio Grande,some NH and other roads.Plus there is some short lines.
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Custom painting and decaling - I do a lot of this in HO scale for me and some friends. I can't imagine trying to paint N scale equipment, decaling it, and then adding grabs, horns, et al. I know many people can do it quite well, but I don't think I could take it. HO scale stuff can drive me buggy. N scale would probably peg my meter towards insanity.
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The younger N Scalers is into adding details from lift rings to grabs...Like you it would drive me batty trying to add lift rings just like it does in HO.
As far as custom painting..No problem..Its just like HO.
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Operations - Reading car numbers in HO scale is bad enough. In N? Um, sorry, but I left my Optivisor in my other pants. And cutting cars? I've seen people knock HO cars off the track when using a bamboo skewer. N scale cars would probably go flying like movie props from "Twister".
Actually many of us do operated with car cards and waybills without needing Optivisors..I am 60 years old and can read N scale car numbers..Of course my eyes is still working good..
As far as making cuts..Paul,ever hear of uncoupling magnets? You know we have delayed uncoupling just like HO..
There should never be the need to knock cars all over the place-----in any scale.That's the beauty of magnets and delayed uncoupling.
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Being a simple man with simple needs I would not want a Godzilla size layout that fills a 25' x 50' area in any scale.Oddly giant layouts was never my cup of tea..
With traction, interurban, etc., there is a lot of scratchbuilding, soldering for overhead operation, and street construction, regardless of the scale modeled.
HO Scale does have a little smidgeon more R-T-R electric motive power than N Scale, but that is the extent of it. So, N Scale is the choice for CR&T due to 45% greater operations potential within the available layout space.
Conemaugh Road & Traction circa 1956
In years past I would have jumped all over a thread like this, defending N scale from the liturgy of misconceptions and misstatements from non-N scalers... Misconceptions, however, tend to rule the day when deeply ingrained and so I prefer not to have the same arguments with the same people for the same reasons each year. Besides, I'm not at all convinced that an internet forum is an effective means to really, truly divine which scale, era, and/or prototype is right for you. It has to come from within. It has to come from that place in your soul that drives your love of trains, and your inexplicable but inexorable compulsion to model them in miniature.
For what it's worth, N scale has been the best thing to happen to me in this hobby. After 20 years in HO, I switched to N for a number of reasons, some of which are relatively unique to me (such as moving frequently due to military service). I love it, and even if given unlimited resources, space, and a permanent home it's very unlikely I'd go back to HO. Yes, there are challenges in N scale that don't always exist in HO, but I find "easier" does not often equal "more rewarding."
Whatever you choose, enjoy it... But it's a bit like asking "which is better, chocolate or vanilla?" Depends.
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
HanselN scale....but it looks like I can do a lot more in this small space. Any thoughts?
HanselI currently have a switching layout in HO, 2'x8', and have been running that for the last year. I am bored with that and would like to have a layout where I could operate trains.
I presume you mean you want to run trains around in a loop (switching is operating a train by the way). Are you planning things that will keep you from getting bored with that as well?
Hanselwhy do the rails on the N scale track look high, or said another way "out of proportion.
I was a hard core N-scale person from 1969 until 1986. It was then I started wanting more than lots of trains running in a small space. At that time I had gobbled up every brass N-scale locomotive made. While at the time they were an order of magnitude better than the plastic I wanted something that was truly scale. I did the calculations to make a scale model of something (don't remember what now but it was probably an E5 locomotive). When I calculated how small a 3/4" grab iron would have to be, I switched to HO. One doesn't choose N-scale if they want highly detailed models. Likewise if one wants on-board sound N-scale is probably not the best choice. I kept the N-scale layout around for years but finally razed it in 2005, and converted all the rolling stock to Christmas tree ornaments. Just couldn't afford the space. I razed my O-scale layout at approximately the same time. Of course now I have unlimited space and wish I still had them both.. sigh. Each size has it's strong points.
Hansel: I currently have a switching layout in HO, 2'x8', and have been running that for the last year. I am bored with that and would like to have a layout where I could operate trains. -----------------------------
TZ:In what way is it boring? Are you operating it to a schedule and keeping track of the number of moves & time it takes to complete a given session? Have you added variations such as certain cars can't be moved or have to be spotted in a certain direction.
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TZ,While I enjoy ISLs far better then loop de loop layout I can fully understand why a 1x8 foot ISL is boring.
Having built some 1x8 footers I can attest there isn't much room for very much switching after you add some structures..Of course flats along the back drop is a must.
My minimum sizes for ISL would be (HO) 18" x 10' and (N) 12" x 8'..
After operating on some very nice layouts with Waybills, Car Cards, Train Orders and the like, I would like to have my own layout or as much as I can have in the very small space that I have, to do the same or as close to the same operations, hidden staging, trains running both eastbound and westbound, etc. Yes, I have done different types of operating on my switching layout, but it still doesn't do much for me.
My other alternative would be to put a layout in my garage. But I don't think I would like to "work" in an area that is heated in the summer and cooled in the winter. That is a topic for another post, I am sure!
You all have provided some really great conversations about how and why to choose the different scales to model your railroad. Thanks.
nucat78This is a regular recipe versus extra crispy argument that keeps coming up. Each has advantages and disadvantages. Either might fit any given individual's situation better. I'm lucky enough to be able to model in both scales.
What about crunchy vs. smooth peanut butter? I prefer crunchy!
You know the old saying "Less is more" well it might be the case in N scale. Sure you theoretically should be able to fit twice as much in the same space being it's half the size of HO but with all the gains of space come a lot of pains with it. We have a very small N scale layout here that my 16 year old is building and lets jsut say it ain't for a guy like me with fat fingers. I enve the guys who have the manual dexterity to work with n scale. Just handling the trains is enough for me never mind structure building and detailing etc.
When it was decided that the new layout would have to be built in the basement rather then in the big building out back I thought man I could build a great sized N scale layout in this space, for all of about 30 seconds and laughed and said what are you stupid. I have enough with HO never mind making myself more crazy then I already am.
I will say the one of the things n scale has got in it's favor is that they are making some really great running equipment now a days not like the real trash they used to have when it first hit the scene. Good luck to you what ever scale you choose.
In hell, the only scale available is N, and the only video rental available is Ishtar.
Forgot these types before, hopefully I'm not being redundant. See if you can find local people who model in both scales that don't mind someone taking a tour of their layout. Even ask if they can run some of their trains around it. Or go to your LHS (I luck out a bit here as my closest LHS is purely trains) and just look at the HO and N trains and rolling, buildings and such.
One other thing to do is look around in the track plan date base. Figure out the square footage of your layout area, the database has sq. ft. ranges, and just look at the track plans it gives you in your interested skills.
One other quick question for the OP, what is the size? You say L shaped area but then you give the dimensions 4x8x4x7. Is there two possible areas, or just a signle odd shaped area?
MILW-RODR Forgot these types before, hopefully I'm not being redundant. See if you can find local people who model in both scales that don't mind someone taking a tour of their layout. Even ask if they can run some of their trains around it. Or go to your LHS (I luck out a bit here as my closest LHS is purely trains) and just look at the HO and N trains and rolling, buildings and such. One other thing to do is look around in the track plan date base. Figure out the square footage of your layout area, the database has sq. ft. ranges, and just look at the track plans it gives you in your interested skills. One other quick question for the OP, what is the size? You say L shaped area but then you give the dimensions 4x8x4x7. Is there two possible areas, or just a signle odd shaped area?
For now, until the kids leave for college in 8 year, or the wife leaves, ha, ha, ha, that is the only space that I have (funny how I have a 3100 sf house!) picture it as a 4'x8' with a 4'x4' extension as the "L" shape. I plan to go to an N scale operating session this month, so that will probably help me decide. The new issue of MR has a nice N scale layout in it. I know my LHS has lots of HO items but I think it only has N scale buildings. Then again there is always a train show at least once a month here with many vendors.
Hansel said:Yes, I have done different types of operating on my switching layout, but it still doesn't do much for me.
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I would be the very first to shout from roof tops that ISLs isn't for everybody..No,one must enjoy doing the unglamorous work of a local crew instead of running freight and passenger trains across the division.
And even at that there isn't much operation beyond car cards and waybills on a ISL and here is where the ISL looses to a point to point or loop layout as far as operation.
N Scale will give you what you seek in your layout space make no mistake about that and you should be able to run 30-40 car trains and still look "right"..
As a word of warning and a lesson learned--the hard way.. N Scale isn't as forgiving as HO when it comes to poorly laid track.However,properly laid track will give you hours of smooth derailment free operation.
Also use the largest curve possible and nothing less then a #6 switch especially if you plan on using long wheel base engines and cars.
I recommend N scale if you want distant towns any many industries, while HO is good for a switching layout.
My favorite scale is HO, but I think its fun collecting in other scales as well. Right now I'm into collecting HO steamers to build a dream layout in the future, while as a side project, I'm helping my older brother construct an O gauge lionel layout. I enjoy working with both scales, each having their own advantages and disadvantages.
I greatly admire those who have the patience to make outstanding n scale layouts, but n scale itself intimidates me. Its a beautiful scale, you can pack a lot of action and detail into a small room, creating your own miniature world, but I don't have the skill or the surgeon's hands required for mastering the modeling in smaller scales like N or Z. Even HO comes with its own frustrations, of course I'm an amateur model railroader. For example, I tried putting together one of those Branchline Blue print series passenger cars, thats not even scratch building, or kit bashing, but it took me 9 hours to construct a single car. The hardest part was getting the glue not to get on the windows and working with little tweezers to fit the bottom detailing in place. This was no easy task in HO, I can't even imagine taking on a project like that in n scale.
Has anybody seen the hand crafted T1 duplex that one modeler made in n scale? Truly amazing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uBg6AUYHac
The guy even installed illuminated class lights. Darn nice ballasting job too.
The great thing is you have the choice to do either scale in this space. By now youv'e heard that you will be at least slightly confinied in HO scale, but not to say that you couldn't have an outstanding layout in HO. N scale has its options as well, you will have more available space on the layout, but might be confined in detail parts if it interests you. I have worked in both scales, and if given the size layout in which you are speaking, and not sure of which scale, I would first ask you to consider what kind of layout you want. Do you want a big city scene, consider the types of industries and the era you desire. Think if you want mountains, bridges, and water.
I personally would do either an N scale OR bi-scale, two tiered layout, with forced perspective. Some people get scared and excited when they hear about a two tiered, two scale forced perspective. When planned (and executed) right, these kind of layouts catch people's eyes and keep them there. I would have the HO on the bottom of course, with at least a few spurs for trackside industries, and a city scene on top maybe. If desired you could even elimate grades this way, have running trains on both levels, switches on both levels, and have flexiblility of working with the both scales.
My 2 cents. I think N scale is a more practical choice when it comes to modeling passenger service within a real-world space constraints. I model in HO, and instead of small switching/test track that I have setup right now, I could have had a small loop with sidings. Plus Kato, company I really admire, has plenty of products available in passenger N scale.
The reason I'm in HO is that I can't get over the fact that trains in N scale look too toylike for some reason. Whenever I'm at a train show, HO layouts with trains look like I'm looking from a bird view on a real thing. In N scale, on the other hand, long trains look like I'm looking at snakes crawling though the table of toy structures. I wish I didn't felt this way, because with N scale it is so much easier to model passenger service in a reasonable space.
trainsBuddy My 2 cents. I think N scale is a more practical choice when it comes to modeling passenger service within a real-world space constraints. I model in HO, and instead of small switching/test track that I have setup right now, I could have had a small loop with sidings. Plus Kato, company I really admire, has plenty of products available in passenger N scale. The reason I'm in HO is that I can't get over the fact that trains in N scale look too toylike for some reason. Whenever I'm at a train show, HO layouts with trains look like I'm looking from a bird view on a real thing. In N scale, on the other hand, long trains look like I'm looking at snakes crawling though the table of toy structures. I wish I didn't felt this way, because with N scale it is so much easier to model passenger service in a reasonable space.
First one should never judge a scale by a modular layout set up for a train show.If that was the case I would have fled HO years ago because of its "ugliness" displayed on some modulars.
Of course this "ugliness" is seen on N,S and Lionel modular layouts as well.
I would agree that N Scale looks to "toy like" years ago with the ugly open pilot,oversize flanges but,not today's N Scale...Some times its hard to tell if the picture is HO or N if the N modeler is using weathered C55 track..
Is this HO or N?
I will share this with you..
I was losing interest in HO and slowly with the hobby since HO was becoming "stale" due to the lack of a layout and operating on a club layout does get tiresome..I don't have enough space for a HO ISL.
So,I changed my primary scale from HO to N,joined a N Scale club and the zeal and excitement for the hobby has returned.I have since built several structures,bought several engines and cars and will start going full tilt on the layout starting next month..I even sold the majority of my HO keeping only what I use at the HO club..
trainsBuddyMy 2 cents. I think N scale is a more practical choice when it comes to modeling passenger service within a real-world space constraints. I model in HO, and instead of small switching/test track that I have setup right now, I could have had a small loop with sidings. Plus Kato, company I really admire, has plenty of products available in passenger N scale.The reason I'm in HO is that I can't get over the fact that trains in N scale look too toylike for some reason. Whenever I'm at a train show, HO layouts with trains look like I'm looking from a bird view on a real thing. In N scale, on the other hand, long trains look like I'm looking at snakes crawling though the table of toy structures. I wish I didn't felt this way, because with N scale it is so much easier to model passenger service in a reasonable space.
I disagree on the toy like for N scale. The train shows I go to usually have several nicely done N scale modules in the NTrak layout. Frankly, those N scale trains running through a nicely done countryside are a real temptation to switch scales. But I just like bigger trains. I like the bigger presence on the layout and the bigger pieces when you're building. For me S scale has a nice balance between size of the trains and what I can fit on a layout. But I do understand the lure of N and if I were limited to a bedroom or less I would probably switch.
Enjoy
Paul
In some cases I would say that n scale packs even more detail into their passenger trains than HO, particularly their observation cars.
But I would agree that modular layouts don't do n scale justice. To really appreciate the beauty of n scale you gotta look up some of the layouts built by the masters on here.
BRAKIE Is this HO or N?
there was more i had to contribute to the actual post but the pain killers have been playing with my head a little bit and i forgot what it was.
MILW-RODR wrote:but the pain killers have been playing with my head a little bit and i forgot what it was.
I can understand that..Been there before.No fun at all.
You are correct that is a Atlas N Scale 17,360 gal tank car.
As far as plastic wheels several HO cars still comes with plastic wheels. .
Just wanted to point out, that said toy like N scale, not because the luck of detail, there are obviously models out there that have as much detail as premium HO samples. Some brands are even doing sound in N. But it's more of an perception of the size really - with N scale it's harder to resolve the details which are easier to see in HO scale. That's all. Like I said, I see merit in N scale, and it makes sense for the passenger service even more. Who knows, maybe I realize that I'll never be able to do a reasonable HO layout and that will have to switch no N. To make a further point, some people swear by Z scale, cause you can fit even more stuff!
It's humorous to me that so many people who have a strong opinion on HO scale vs. N scale have no layout in any scale.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
Great Pics! Got anymore?
wm3798 You're perfectly justified in describing some N scale as toyish. I'm sure that without a lot of effort, we could also find examples of HO, O, TT, G, S or what have you that have a toyish quality. Heck, there's even a 1:1 Thomas out there running around! If you're looking for detailed rolling stock, and super fine scale details, you'll be hard pressed to achieve that in N scale. It's not impossible, there are some real masters out there. Like, you, I'm an operator, so my concern is mainly that the car "works" by staying coupled and on the track. A little bit of weathering is all that's required for me to consider a car "done". As for scenery and the overall look of a layout, that's going to be driven by the skill and vision of the builder, not by the scale itself. The following are all N scale: So you see, hopefully, that with the right products, and some care, you can get whatever results you're looking for both in terms of looks as well as operationally. Lee
You're perfectly justified in describing some N scale as toyish. I'm sure that without a lot of effort, we could also find examples of HO, O, TT, G, S or what have you that have a toyish quality. Heck, there's even a 1:1 Thomas out there running around!
If you're looking for detailed rolling stock, and super fine scale details, you'll be hard pressed to achieve that in N scale. It's not impossible, there are some real masters out there. Like, you, I'm an operator, so my concern is mainly that the car "works" by staying coupled and on the track. A little bit of weathering is all that's required for me to consider a car "done".
As for scenery and the overall look of a layout, that's going to be driven by the skill and vision of the builder, not by the scale itself.
The following are all N scale:
So you see, hopefully, that with the right products, and some care, you can get whatever results you're looking for both in terms of looks as well as operationally.
There's a lot of good info on this thread!
My own space is somewhat limited, and I went back and forth on the HO vs. N debate for awhile too. HO is more readily available, and the models are generally more detailed and easier to work on. However, N scale has advanced by leaps and bounds in both of these areas in recent years.
In the end, I went with N scale because I can get so much more in the same space.