Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
Dave Vollmercuyama It's humorous to me that so many people who have a strong opinion on HO scale vs. N scale have no layout in any scale. For the win.
cuyama It's humorous to me that so many people who have a strong opinion on HO scale vs. N scale have no layout in any scale.
It's humorous to me that so many people who have a strong opinion on HO scale vs. N scale have no layout in any scale.
For the win.
Dave,
If you ever get transfered to WPAFB, let me know. I would love to see your layout in action.
Hansel
I found an N scale layout that would fit in my space on the MR website. The White River Northern!
I keep thinking---this too shall pass
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
cuyamaIt's humorous to me that so many people who have a strong opinion on HO scale vs. N scale have no layout in any scale.
There's a lot of good info on this thread!
My own space is somewhat limited, and I went back and forth on the HO vs. N debate for awhile too. HO is more readily available, and the models are generally more detailed and easier to work on. However, N scale has advanced by leaps and bounds in both of these areas in recent years.
In the end, I went with N scale because I can get so much more in the same space.
Great Pics! Got anymore?
wm3798 You're perfectly justified in describing some N scale as toyish. I'm sure that without a lot of effort, we could also find examples of HO, O, TT, G, S or what have you that have a toyish quality. Heck, there's even a 1:1 Thomas out there running around! If you're looking for detailed rolling stock, and super fine scale details, you'll be hard pressed to achieve that in N scale. It's not impossible, there are some real masters out there. Like, you, I'm an operator, so my concern is mainly that the car "works" by staying coupled and on the track. A little bit of weathering is all that's required for me to consider a car "done". As for scenery and the overall look of a layout, that's going to be driven by the skill and vision of the builder, not by the scale itself. The following are all N scale: So you see, hopefully, that with the right products, and some care, you can get whatever results you're looking for both in terms of looks as well as operationally. Lee
You're perfectly justified in describing some N scale as toyish. I'm sure that without a lot of effort, we could also find examples of HO, O, TT, G, S or what have you that have a toyish quality. Heck, there's even a 1:1 Thomas out there running around!
If you're looking for detailed rolling stock, and super fine scale details, you'll be hard pressed to achieve that in N scale. It's not impossible, there are some real masters out there. Like, you, I'm an operator, so my concern is mainly that the car "works" by staying coupled and on the track. A little bit of weathering is all that's required for me to consider a car "done".
As for scenery and the overall look of a layout, that's going to be driven by the skill and vision of the builder, not by the scale itself.
The following are all N scale:
So you see, hopefully, that with the right products, and some care, you can get whatever results you're looking for both in terms of looks as well as operationally.
Lee
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
Just wanted to point out, that said toy like N scale, not because the luck of detail, there are obviously models out there that have as much detail as premium HO samples. Some brands are even doing sound in N. But it's more of an perception of the size really - with N scale it's harder to resolve the details which are easier to see in HO scale. That's all. Like I said, I see merit in N scale, and it makes sense for the passenger service even more. Who knows, maybe I realize that I'll never be able to do a reasonable HO layout and that will have to switch no N. To make a further point, some people swear by Z scale, cause you can fit even more stuff!
MILW-RODR wrote:but the pain killers have been playing with my head a little bit and i forgot what it was.
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I can understand that..Been there before.No fun at all.
You are correct that is a Atlas N Scale 17,360 gal tank car.
As far as plastic wheels several HO cars still comes with plastic wheels. .
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
BRAKIE Is this HO or N?
Is this HO or N?
there was more i had to contribute to the actual post but the pain killers have been playing with my head a little bit and i forgot what it was.
In some cases I would say that n scale packs even more detail into their passenger trains than HO, particularly their observation cars.
But I would agree that modular layouts don't do n scale justice. To really appreciate the beauty of n scale you gotta look up some of the layouts built by the masters on here.
trainsBuddyMy 2 cents. I think N scale is a more practical choice when it comes to modeling passenger service within a real-world space constraints. I model in HO, and instead of small switching/test track that I have setup right now, I could have had a small loop with sidings. Plus Kato, company I really admire, has plenty of products available in passenger N scale.The reason I'm in HO is that I can't get over the fact that trains in N scale look too toylike for some reason. Whenever I'm at a train show, HO layouts with trains look like I'm looking from a bird view on a real thing. In N scale, on the other hand, long trains look like I'm looking at snakes crawling though the table of toy structures. I wish I didn't felt this way, because with N scale it is so much easier to model passenger service in a reasonable space.
My 2 cents. I think N scale is a more practical choice when it comes to modeling passenger service within a real-world space constraints. I model in HO, and instead of small switching/test track that I have setup right now, I could have had a small loop with sidings. Plus Kato, company I really admire, has plenty of products available in passenger N scale.
The reason I'm in HO is that I can't get over the fact that trains in N scale look too toylike for some reason. Whenever I'm at a train show, HO layouts with trains look like I'm looking from a bird view on a real thing. In N scale, on the other hand, long trains look like I'm looking at snakes crawling though the table of toy structures. I wish I didn't felt this way, because with N scale it is so much easier to model passenger service in a reasonable space.
I disagree on the toy like for N scale. The train shows I go to usually have several nicely done N scale modules in the NTrak layout. Frankly, those N scale trains running through a nicely done countryside are a real temptation to switch scales. But I just like bigger trains. I like the bigger presence on the layout and the bigger pieces when you're building. For me S scale has a nice balance between size of the trains and what I can fit on a layout. But I do understand the lure of N and if I were limited to a bedroom or less I would probably switch.
Enjoy
Paul
trainsBuddy My 2 cents. I think N scale is a more practical choice when it comes to modeling passenger service within a real-world space constraints. I model in HO, and instead of small switching/test track that I have setup right now, I could have had a small loop with sidings. Plus Kato, company I really admire, has plenty of products available in passenger N scale. The reason I'm in HO is that I can't get over the fact that trains in N scale look too toylike for some reason. Whenever I'm at a train show, HO layouts with trains look like I'm looking from a bird view on a real thing. In N scale, on the other hand, long trains look like I'm looking at snakes crawling though the table of toy structures. I wish I didn't felt this way, because with N scale it is so much easier to model passenger service in a reasonable space.
First one should never judge a scale by a modular layout set up for a train show.If that was the case I would have fled HO years ago because of its "ugliness" displayed on some modulars.
Of course this "ugliness" is seen on N,S and Lionel modular layouts as well.
I would agree that N Scale looks to "toy like" years ago with the ugly open pilot,oversize flanges but,not today's N Scale...Some times its hard to tell if the picture is HO or N if the N modeler is using weathered C55 track..
I will share this with you..
I was losing interest in HO and slowly with the hobby since HO was becoming "stale" due to the lack of a layout and operating on a club layout does get tiresome..I don't have enough space for a HO ISL.
So,I changed my primary scale from HO to N,joined a N Scale club and the zeal and excitement for the hobby has returned.I have since built several structures,bought several engines and cars and will start going full tilt on the layout starting next month..I even sold the majority of my HO keeping only what I use at the HO club..
The great thing is you have the choice to do either scale in this space. By now youv'e heard that you will be at least slightly confinied in HO scale, but not to say that you couldn't have an outstanding layout in HO. N scale has its options as well, you will have more available space on the layout, but might be confined in detail parts if it interests you. I have worked in both scales, and if given the size layout in which you are speaking, and not sure of which scale, I would first ask you to consider what kind of layout you want. Do you want a big city scene, consider the types of industries and the era you desire. Think if you want mountains, bridges, and water.
I personally would do either an N scale OR bi-scale, two tiered layout, with forced perspective. Some people get scared and excited when they hear about a two tiered, two scale forced perspective. When planned (and executed) right, these kind of layouts catch people's eyes and keep them there. I would have the HO on the bottom of course, with at least a few spurs for trackside industries, and a city scene on top maybe. If desired you could even elimate grades this way, have running trains on both levels, switches on both levels, and have flexiblility of working with the both scales.
My favorite scale is HO, but I think its fun collecting in other scales as well. Right now I'm into collecting HO steamers to build a dream layout in the future, while as a side project, I'm helping my older brother construct an O gauge lionel layout. I enjoy working with both scales, each having their own advantages and disadvantages.
I greatly admire those who have the patience to make outstanding n scale layouts, but n scale itself intimidates me. Its a beautiful scale, you can pack a lot of action and detail into a small room, creating your own miniature world, but I don't have the skill or the surgeon's hands required for mastering the modeling in smaller scales like N or Z. Even HO comes with its own frustrations, of course I'm an amateur model railroader. For example, I tried putting together one of those Branchline Blue print series passenger cars, thats not even scratch building, or kit bashing, but it took me 9 hours to construct a single car. The hardest part was getting the glue not to get on the windows and working with little tweezers to fit the bottom detailing in place. This was no easy task in HO, I can't even imagine taking on a project like that in n scale.
Has anybody seen the hand crafted T1 duplex that one modeler made in n scale? Truly amazing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uBg6AUYHac
The guy even installed illuminated class lights. Darn nice ballasting job too.
I recommend N scale if you want distant towns any many industries, while HO is good for a switching layout.
Hansel said:Yes, I have done different types of operating on my switching layout, but it still doesn't do much for me.
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I would be the very first to shout from roof tops that ISLs isn't for everybody..No,one must enjoy doing the unglamorous work of a local crew instead of running freight and passenger trains across the division.
And even at that there isn't much operation beyond car cards and waybills on a ISL and here is where the ISL looses to a point to point or loop layout as far as operation.
N Scale will give you what you seek in your layout space make no mistake about that and you should be able to run 30-40 car trains and still look "right"..
As a word of warning and a lesson learned--the hard way.. N Scale isn't as forgiving as HO when it comes to poorly laid track.However,properly laid track will give you hours of smooth derailment free operation.
Also use the largest curve possible and nothing less then a #6 switch especially if you plan on using long wheel base engines and cars.
MILW-RODR Forgot these types before, hopefully I'm not being redundant. See if you can find local people who model in both scales that don't mind someone taking a tour of their layout. Even ask if they can run some of their trains around it. Or go to your LHS (I luck out a bit here as my closest LHS is purely trains) and just look at the HO and N trains and rolling, buildings and such. One other thing to do is look around in the track plan date base. Figure out the square footage of your layout area, the database has sq. ft. ranges, and just look at the track plans it gives you in your interested skills. One other quick question for the OP, what is the size? You say L shaped area but then you give the dimensions 4x8x4x7. Is there two possible areas, or just a signle odd shaped area?
Forgot these types before, hopefully I'm not being redundant. See if you can find local people who model in both scales that don't mind someone taking a tour of their layout. Even ask if they can run some of their trains around it. Or go to your LHS (I luck out a bit here as my closest LHS is purely trains) and just look at the HO and N trains and rolling, buildings and such.
One other thing to do is look around in the track plan date base. Figure out the square footage of your layout area, the database has sq. ft. ranges, and just look at the track plans it gives you in your interested skills.
One other quick question for the OP, what is the size? You say L shaped area but then you give the dimensions 4x8x4x7. Is there two possible areas, or just a signle odd shaped area?
For now, until the kids leave for college in 8 year, or the wife leaves, ha, ha, ha, that is the only space that I have (funny how I have a 3100 sf house!) picture it as a 4'x8' with a 4'x4' extension as the "L" shape. I plan to go to an N scale operating session this month, so that will probably help me decide. The new issue of MR has a nice N scale layout in it. I know my LHS has lots of HO items but I think it only has N scale buildings. Then again there is always a train show at least once a month here with many vendors.
In hell, the only scale available is N, and the only video rental available is Ishtar.
You know the old saying "Less is more" well it might be the case in N scale. Sure you theoretically should be able to fit twice as much in the same space being it's half the size of HO but with all the gains of space come a lot of pains with it. We have a very small N scale layout here that my 16 year old is building and lets jsut say it ain't for a guy like me with fat fingers. I enve the guys who have the manual dexterity to work with n scale. Just handling the trains is enough for me never mind structure building and detailing etc.
When it was decided that the new layout would have to be built in the basement rather then in the big building out back I thought man I could build a great sized N scale layout in this space, for all of about 30 seconds and laughed and said what are you stupid. I have enough with HO never mind making myself more crazy then I already am.
I will say the one of the things n scale has got in it's favor is that they are making some really great running equipment now a days not like the real trash they used to have when it first hit the scene. Good luck to you what ever scale you choose.
nucat78This is a regular recipe versus extra crispy argument that keeps coming up. Each has advantages and disadvantages. Either might fit any given individual's situation better. I'm lucky enough to be able to model in both scales.
What about crunchy vs. smooth peanut butter? I prefer crunchy!
After operating on some very nice layouts with Waybills, Car Cards, Train Orders and the like, I would like to have my own layout or as much as I can have in the very small space that I have, to do the same or as close to the same operations, hidden staging, trains running both eastbound and westbound, etc. Yes, I have done different types of operating on my switching layout, but it still doesn't do much for me.
My other alternative would be to put a layout in my garage. But I don't think I would like to "work" in an area that is heated in the summer and cooled in the winter. That is a topic for another post, I am sure!
You all have provided some really great conversations about how and why to choose the different scales to model your railroad. Thanks.
Hansel: I currently have a switching layout in HO, 2'x8', and have been running that for the last year. I am bored with that and would like to have a layout where I could operate trains. -----------------------------
TZ:In what way is it boring? Are you operating it to a schedule and keeping track of the number of moves & time it takes to complete a given session? Have you added variations such as certain cars can't be moved or have to be spotted in a certain direction.
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TZ,While I enjoy ISLs far better then loop de loop layout I can fully understand why a 1x8 foot ISL is boring.
Having built some 1x8 footers I can attest there isn't much room for very much switching after you add some structures..Of course flats along the back drop is a must.
My minimum sizes for ISL would be (HO) 18" x 10' and (N) 12" x 8'..
HanselN scale....but it looks like I can do a lot more in this small space. Any thoughts?
HanselI currently have a switching layout in HO, 2'x8', and have been running that for the last year. I am bored with that and would like to have a layout where I could operate trains.
I presume you mean you want to run trains around in a loop (switching is operating a train by the way). Are you planning things that will keep you from getting bored with that as well?
Hanselwhy do the rails on the N scale track look high, or said another way "out of proportion.
I was a hard core N-scale person from 1969 until 1986. It was then I started wanting more than lots of trains running in a small space. At that time I had gobbled up every brass N-scale locomotive made. While at the time they were an order of magnitude better than the plastic I wanted something that was truly scale. I did the calculations to make a scale model of something (don't remember what now but it was probably an E5 locomotive). When I calculated how small a 3/4" grab iron would have to be, I switched to HO. One doesn't choose N-scale if they want highly detailed models. Likewise if one wants on-board sound N-scale is probably not the best choice. I kept the N-scale layout around for years but finally razed it in 2005, and converted all the rolling stock to Christmas tree ornaments. Just couldn't afford the space. I razed my O-scale layout at approximately the same time. Of course now I have unlimited space and wish I still had them both.. sigh. Each size has it's strong points.
In years past I would have jumped all over a thread like this, defending N scale from the liturgy of misconceptions and misstatements from non-N scalers... Misconceptions, however, tend to rule the day when deeply ingrained and so I prefer not to have the same arguments with the same people for the same reasons each year. Besides, I'm not at all convinced that an internet forum is an effective means to really, truly divine which scale, era, and/or prototype is right for you. It has to come from within. It has to come from that place in your soul that drives your love of trains, and your inexplicable but inexorable compulsion to model them in miniature.
For what it's worth, N scale has been the best thing to happen to me in this hobby. After 20 years in HO, I switched to N for a number of reasons, some of which are relatively unique to me (such as moving frequently due to military service). I love it, and even if given unlimited resources, space, and a permanent home it's very unlikely I'd go back to HO. Yes, there are challenges in N scale that don't always exist in HO, but I find "easier" does not often equal "more rewarding."
Whatever you choose, enjoy it... But it's a bit like asking "which is better, chocolate or vanilla?" Depends.