Trains.com

Subscriber & Member Login

Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!

Incorperating Derailments into Operations?

1704 views
21 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    August 2007
  • From: New Bedford, MA
  • 253 posts
Incorperating Derailments into Operations?
Posted by Jake1210 on Wednesday, August 26, 2009 6:33 AM

 Just an interesting thought I had when thinking about trackwork. Has anyone tried this or thought of doing it? Like, say a manifest freight goes over a rough spot and a few wheels go on the ground. Instead of just laughing at the layout owner, rerailing the cars in a matter of seconds, and continuing on. Maybe have the operator postpone train movements (if necessary) until the train crew (Big Smile) can get the rerailer frog and rectify the problem. Or even for more severe derailments, until a track crew can be dispatched to repair any damaged track and/or tow off any locomotives in need of repair. (Or simply write it off as a loss if it took a tumble into the giant concrete chasm Dead)

Your thoughts?

--Jake

Moderator
  • Member since
    November 2008
  • From: London ON
  • 10,392 posts
Posted by blownout cylinder on Wednesday, August 26, 2009 7:02 AM

My layout has a raised fascia---no train be going over no gorge here!! LOLSmile,Wink, & Grin---however, the idea sounds like it could be done---a kind of random event that could be generated---one could generate a notice of a switcher going to ground in an ISL, even off site, so that some traffic of the MOW variety could be generated--Have fun--Smile

 

Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry

I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...

http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/

  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Germany
  • 1,951 posts
Posted by wedudler on Wednesday, August 26, 2009 7:08 AM

 At my Diamond Valley I've two derails. Until now, at every meeting a few guy fun over the closed derail!

Wolfgang

Pueblo & Salt Lake RR

Come to us http://www.westportterminal.de          my videos        my blog

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • 305,205 posts
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, August 26, 2009 9:36 AM

 I don´t think this is funny.

A derailment in real life railroading is a tremendous hazard with a potential of severe injuries and the loss of life.  Railroads all over the world are spending fortunes to improve their track in order to avoid derailments. We have seen in many cases the sad results of neglect and carelessness, as exercised in the 1980´s and 1990´s, when track maintenance was cut short for reasons of shareholder value.

As model railroaders we spend extra care to put down our track so we get realistic and reliable operation - see MR´s new brochure on this topic.

Now why should we add "planned" derailment to our layouts? For me, this is toy-like!

  • Member since
    October 2001
  • From: OH
  • 17,574 posts
Posted by BRAKIE on Wednesday, August 26, 2009 9:48 AM

I strive for derailment free operation and will accept nothing less so,why would I want to plan derailments?

 

Larry

Conductor.

Summerset Ry.


"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt  Safety First!"

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • From: Omaha, NE
  • 10,621 posts
Posted by dehusman on Wednesday, August 26, 2009 10:50 AM

Jake1210

Or even for more severe derailments, until a track crew can be dispatched to repair any damaged track and/or tow off any locomotives in need of repair. (Or simply write it off as a loss if it took a tumble into the giant concrete chasm Dead)

Your thoughts?

Most derailments result in things stopping for hours (or days).  So if you think it would be great fun to stop running trains and have your operators stand around just waiting for hours while your model crews rerail cars and fix track, knock yourself out.  I personally think that keeping trains moving or operators occupied is more fun.

Normally if the derailment is big enough to get the big hook called out the track will be out of service for 8-12 hours.

Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com

  • Member since
    February 2005
  • From: Vancouver Island, BC
  • 23,330 posts
Posted by selector on Wednesday, August 26, 2009 10:53 AM

I think this is meant to be a more light-hearted discussion, and not meant to become an argument of the type we have had over now-banned topics (hobos, grafitti...).  I haven't understood any suggestion that derailments are fun, or that they are safe, or that they are not costly in various ways. 

 Instead, the question could be phrased, "If a derailment takes place at an ops session, would it be realistic, even useful, for those involved to have to go through a scale time recovery process other than merely using the sky-hook and hurrying along?"

-Crandell

  • Member since
    February 2008
  • 8,826 posts
Posted by maxman on Wednesday, August 26, 2009 11:09 AM

selector
 Instead, the question could be phrased, "If a derailment takes place at an ops session, would it be realistic, even useful, for those involved to have to go through a scale time recovery process other than merely using the sky-hook and hurrying along?"

 

NO!

  • Member since
    October 2001
  • From: OH
  • 17,574 posts
Posted by BRAKIE on Wednesday, August 26, 2009 11:15 AM

Instead, the question could be phrased, "If a derailment takes place at an ops session, would it be realistic, even useful, for those involved to have to go through a scale time recovery process other than merely using the sky-hook and hurrying along?"

-Crandell

---------------

In that light..

Absolutely! I done that while operating my past ISLs..

You see that gave me time to investigate  the cause of the derailment while the MOW "crew" rerailed the car.Cool

 

You see I do not accept derailments as a normal operation occurrence.

Larry

Conductor.

Summerset Ry.


"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt  Safety First!"

  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Germany
  • 1,951 posts
Posted by wedudler on Wednesday, August 26, 2009 11:17 AM

 Even at a model railraod a derailment is dangerous. At the mentioned derails one time it broke the rod from a steamer, running over a closed derail!

Wolfgang

Pueblo & Salt Lake RR

Come to us http://www.westportterminal.de          my videos        my blog

  • Member since
    March 2008
  • From: Seattle Area
  • 1,794 posts
Posted by Capt. Grimek on Wednesday, August 26, 2009 2:39 PM
I've seen derailments on layouts that have perfect track work at operations sessions. Other things cause derailments even if it's just a new or inattentive operator running a turn out and picking the points.******* Like the OP I've played with the idea of sending out the big hook and MOW car once the layout is operating. If we don't keep things in scale time (if that's not a concern for a particular session) it can add some fun operations with a minimal delay. It may be the only time we get to run and use our cranes, r.h. crews, etc. in a remotely prototypical manner even if it's only to run 'em out to the scene and then rerail everything quickly. If nothing else it reminds us of what the hostler's other than the usual duties might be, clear some yard tracks, etc. and then there's the opportunity for more paper work if paper work is your thing. *******Other than static repair MOW scenes, when else can we operate our emergency repair/work crew's rolling stock and tell that particular "story"? I don't think having a little semi-prototypical fun with this scenario is laughing in the face of real life danger or taking less than scale time (if not operating on time limitations: schedules or fast clocks, etc.) to re-rail is a "crime".******* Isn't it more fun, educational and "respectful" than simply running over and picking the errant train up physically without even sending out a wreck crew?******* I'm not understanding (aside from a prototype scheduling systems) why sending out a scale crew/wreck train in non-scale time isn't more "fun" and even "instructional and respectful for tradition(s) than a quick "hand of god" replacing everything instantly? It shouldn't take more than a couple-3 minutes on most layouts to accomplish this, should it? It gives the owner or dispatcher a few extra "enforced" minutes to analyze the problem. Am I missing something? Surprised by the vehement and numerous "NOs!"...

Raised on the Erie Lackawanna Mainline- Supt. of the Black River Transfer & Terminal R.R.

  • Member since
    March 2008
  • 773 posts
Posted by ruderunner on Wednesday, August 26, 2009 4:18 PM

I agree with the OP, in fact I had started a similar thread a couple weeks ago.  Seems lots of modelers take a derailment as a personal insult.  OK if it's the same car or same spot in the track then be offended and fix your sloppyness.  If it's just one of those things with no rhyme or reason or a new operator etc  then why not have some fun weth it?  No need to call it a day and send everyone home but I think it would be more fun to send out the wreck crew.  If it take a fast hour then thats the dispatchers problem!

Modeling the Cleveland and Pittsburgh during the PennCentral era starting on the Cleveland lakefront and ending in Mingo junction

  • Member since
    October 2006
  • 520 posts
Posted by Loco on Wednesday, August 26, 2009 7:28 PM

 Gads, maybe some decaf is in order.  I PLAN to have random things happen.  Derails or brake shoes getting hot, cows on track, tanker leaking....Boiler pressure drop - got to get another loco.  Rock slide.  Going to make a spinning wheel with random events.... SPIN THE BIG WHEEL!

You go OP!  

 

 

 

LAte Loco
Moderator
  • Member since
    November 2008
  • From: London ON
  • 10,392 posts
Posted by blownout cylinder on Wednesday, August 26, 2009 7:35 PM

Sheesh

Wow. What happened to prototypicality here? If one is to OPERATE in a prototypical fashion--as many say they are--then a part of that is going to be the randomly generated events. Yes, these events may not be great or CONVENIENT, but that is also part of our prototypical world.

 Look. If you do not want any derailments ON the layout--generate an event that occurs OFFSITE so that it effects the operation on the site.

That's all. No need to get wrapped around the axles hereSmile

Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry

I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...

http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 1,414 posts
Posted by Guilford Guy on Wednesday, August 26, 2009 7:51 PM

 I don't understand several of the replies. I try to replicate railroad operations as best I can. Pulling together a rescue train and running out to the scene while the dispatcher must try to find places for other trains on the system seems "fun" to me. I'm not making this a laughing matter with scaled down slaughter. It's the idea of mimicking what the real railroads do, just to make our mini empires run more like their full sized counterparts.

Alex

  • Member since
    February 2009
  • 29 posts
Posted by Mill Bay on Wednesday, August 26, 2009 7:59 PM

Also, for those who are annoyed by the occasional derailment and simply have to keep their railroad running and not have operators standing around doing not much of anything, there is a prototypical response you can use that should have trains rolling again in a smaller scale time frame. Just have a train standing buy with some sectional track, run it out to the derailment site, and build a quick shoo-fly around the wreck so that trains can keep moving around the site.

 Actually, this is not really plausible because, unlike real railroads, one track-work is glued down, we can't really disconnect the rails and manhandle them around to join them to the temporary trackage of a shoo-fly. Oops! Well, at least I tried to offer a prototype solution. Big Smile

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • 2,751 posts
Posted by Allegheny2-6-6-6 on Wednesday, August 26, 2009 8:37 PM

One of the largest club layout in the country is not too far from me and I have operated with them as a guest a few times. If a derailment occurs weather planned or not if you just put the wheels back on the track you will be suspended from operating for one month. Thats how much of a stickler for details these guys are. A fact of life is derailments do happen as well as tracks get closed for flooding, mudslides etc. Their dispatcher will occasionally through an obstacle such as a derailment into an op session without the knowledge of anyone but the person he directs to make the accident happen. This is done to see how operators act when serious things like this happen.The prototype has disaster drills all the time so it's their way of art imitating life I guess.

They don't just laugh it off and continue operating just as a real railroad wouldn't.  They do this even in the case of an accidental derailment, they will also review what happened and how it was handled at club meetings or at the end of the sessioni was told. Say what you want but these guys are serious about their operations, don't get me wrong their a great bunch of guys and have a lot of fun but it's the way they choose to run their railroad.

Just my 2 cents worth, I spent the rest on trains. If you choked a Smurf what color would he turn?
  • Member since
    November 2002
  • From: Colorado
  • 4,075 posts
Posted by fwright on Thursday, August 27, 2009 1:47 PM

Mill Bay

Also, for those who are annoyed by the occasional derailment and simply have to keep their railroad running and not have operators standing around doing not much of anything, there is a prototypical response you can use that should have trains rolling again in a smaller scale time frame. Just have a train standing buy with some sectional track, run it out to the derailment site, and build a quick shoo-fly around the wreck so that trains can keep moving around the site.

 Actually, this is not really plausible because, unlike real railroads, one track-work is glued down, we can't really disconnect the rails and manhandle them around to join them to the temporary trackage of a shoo-fly. Oops! Well, at least I tried to offer a prototype solution. Big Smile

It is quite plausible if you are willing to perform a few hours of hard work with a skilled team of several persons like the prototype does.

I'm sure in 4 hours a team of 3-4 top notch model railroaders with access to the necessary tools and materials could get a shoo-fly installed on most layouts - about the same as a prototype.  The problem is 1) time doesn't scale; 2) very few of us are willing to take as long to perform an operation as the prototype.  How many of us are truly willing and content to switch our yards at a prototypical 5MPH - waiting 6 seconds for each 40ft boxcar to pass a yard limit sign?

my thoughts, your choices

Fred W

  • Member since
    August 2006
  • From: Nashville, TN area
  • 713 posts
Posted by hardcoalcase on Thursday, August 27, 2009 9:02 PM

MR had a cartoon on this many moons ago.  The picture was of a club member hulking over a derailed freight car and a rescuing crane car.  He was feverishly manipulating the crane car cables by hand trying to secure the car and return it to the rails. 

In the background, one member says to another... "If he's going to do this with every derailment, I'm for kicking him out of the club!"

Jim

  • Member since
    August 2004
  • 2,844 posts
Posted by dinwitty on Friday, August 28, 2009 6:32 PM

 

This was done in the board game "Dispatcher", you had incident cards, turn one over it said things like heavy rains cause a washout, no trains thru this hour. Or train leaving west yard derails, this train stopped this turn (you get demerit points)

But model derailments really do affect operation anyways, treat it as you will, but we don't have little green men running around to pick it up, its the old 5 fingered hook every time. 

 

  • Member since
    May 2015
  • 779 posts
Posted by Dallas Model Works on Friday, August 28, 2009 6:35 PM

I have a self-imposed rule that forces me to haul out the big hook when there's a derailment.

It's a pain in the butt just like the real thing but mostly it's another incentive to have good track work and well-tuned rolling stock.

Yes, I'm insane.

Craig

Craig

DMW

  • Member since
    November 2002
  • From: Findlay, Ohio
  • 447 posts
Posted by danmerkel on Friday, August 28, 2009 9:27 PM

It seems to me that there are two options here... one, if a train derails, call out the 0-5-0, put it back on the track & keep on going.  Two, have a proceedure in place for a derailment.  This could involve a short timeout (with trains backing up in the affected area or having to use one of two tracks, etc) which would allow someone to mark the spot, check the car in question and make necessary notes for repairs.

I don't think I would "plan" on a derailment but if one happens during a session, I don't see why it couldn't be handled according to some kind of pre-arranged plan.

dlm

Subscriber & Member Login

Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!

Users Online

There are no community member online

Search the Community

ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT
Model Railroader Newsletter See all
Sign up for our FREE e-newsletter and get model railroad news in your inbox!