can somebody explain to me why broadway limited keeps making expensive hybrid models, which most modellers find a little rich in todays economy,instead of the normal well detailed ones they made before.
I could not justify buying the NYC Mohawk even at FDT discounted price and the PRR Q2 is a must have loco but I cannot afford to buy more than one,as for the Baldwins recently announced,they mostly ran in pairs so buying two will nail your credit card good
Not to be flippant but, I would assume they make them because they are earning a profit doing it. People like me who just happen to "need" a good looking Mowhawk on their NYC based layout buy them. It dosn't pull as well as my BLI Hudson or Niagra, but it sure looks and sounds great. I will have to use it to pull time freights rather than a 14 car passanger train. Since the company is in business and they would probably like to stay that way, selling high priced locomotives is part of their business model.
Paul
Dayton and Mad River RR
turbine,
I guess it depends how you look at it. At discount, the new BLI L-4 Mohawks are $380. A pretty penny? Perhaps. A newly painted brass L-1 Mohawk from Division Point or Key Imports*? Probably $1,500 minimum. In that case, the BLI is a bargain.
*[Neither manufacturer has released their's yet.]
Also, given the fact that a computer will run you at least that much and more...then need to be retired after 5-7 years of service, the Hybrids should allow for many years of MRRing enjoyment. You can always wait and see if the Mohawks, Q2s, and Baldwins eventually make it to the "2 fer" sale at FDT, like the recent Blue Line Niagaras did.
That's one nice thing about the pre-orders: It usually gives me sufficient time to save up my pennies so that I can buy one.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
tstageturbine,I guess it depends how you look at it. At discount, the new BLI L-4 Mohawks are $380. A pretty penny? Perhaps. A newly painted brass L-1 Mohawk from Division Point or Key Imports*? Probably $1,500 minimum. In that case, the BLI is a bargain.
I guess it really does depends on how you look at it. Since BLI prices their stuff so high. I just don't buy it. From a business perspective, its hard to comprehend the money you *didn't* make because people didn't spend their money with you. Which is not the same as people not spending money at all. They just chose to spend it elsewhere.
jwhittenI guess it really does depends on how you look at it. Since BLI prices their stuff so high. I just don't buy it. From a business perspective, its hard to comprehend the money you *didn't* make because people didn't spend their money with you. Which is not the same as people not spending money at all. They just chose to spend it elsewhere.
Lets say the goal is to make $10,000. You could sell 100 engines that make $100 profit, or you could sell 500 engines that make $20. One thing I think BLI is very good at is understanding the business end of things. Will you sell all 500? What do you do if some perceived problem is trumped up on a message board and you're sitting there with 400 unsold locos? You can't really put them on sale to justify the price because the margin is already so low. BLI's been playing with price structure, product lines, and distribution models for a while now. I imagine they've got a pretty good idea what sells and what doesn't.
There's also the notion of protecting the brand. Apple computer is big on this. Steve Jobs has stated he doesn't want to sell a computer that costs less than $500 cause it would be "crap". Whether a sub-$500 PC is crap or not is a different topic, but the lesson here is that people will pay for quality and exclusivity. Bachmann, with their extreme discounts to basement dealers and ebay sellers, is the polar opposite of this. No one pays MSRP, and few even pay 50% of that. The brand develops a reputation as a "cheap" item.
I find it hard to accept that both MTH and BLI don't really know what they are doing. Even the Rivarossi Alleghney engines seem to be scarce, and they were just as expensive with the LokSound decoders when they ran that production offering a few months after the initial DC-only run.
Yet, both MTH and BLI price their engines at a premium level, and it doesn't take long before two things happen: they decline rapidly in availability, and/or, they are blown out heavily discounted with in a few short months. This doesn't seem to fit the model at MTH, to my knowledge, but BLI and FDT seem to have it working well. Both still very much in business and offering new engines in the foreseeable future by either subscription or with the promise of yet more discounts for those who have self-restraint.
Somebody is buying up all these expensive engines. Maybe it is the former brass fellas who know a good thing when they see it. No tinkering, get three engines with sound for the price of one ornery brass engine with about the same level of detailing (no, I agree, not the same in the case of the BLI's or the MTH engines, but the Rivarossi H-8 is truly outstanding!). Somebody is keeping this premium loco market afloat and not even breaking a sweat. Sorry, but it is plainly so.
That said, I do sympathize with those who would love to have such beasts, but who in good conscience decline to pay for them. It is a personal decision, and mature men make such choices for the best of reasons. Afterwards, one can only press one's nose against the window glass and dream. In life, many are in that position, some by choice, some by happenstance.
-Crandell
I don't mind them making hybrids at all if it allows them to be made in the first place.
What I mean by that is that it's possible if they had to make all engines in the normal BLI or Blue Line product line that they wouldn't think it was worth the risk. Therefore, they don't make relatively obscure models at all and only continue to pump out less risky locos like USRA-types, UP Big Boys, PRR K-4's, NYC Hudsons, et al.
I own one hybrid BLI loco, the New Haven I-5 4-6-4. It cost, brand new, $359 direct from FDT with free shipping because I ordered before a certain date. It has QSI sound w/ the distinctive steamboat whistle the I-5's had, weighs 2 pounds, and pulls ten 85' passenger cars up a 2.5% grade on a 40" radius S-curve. It runs very smoothly at low speeds, and all tender wheels and all driver wheels pick up power. The paint and decal work is superb, and the detailing is spot on. In short, it's almost everything you'd want an HO steam loco model to be.
Before the BLI hybrid I-5, you had three choices:
1). Buy an NJ/Custom Brass version from the early-1980's. Going rate is approx. $400 unpainted, $500 painted. Only half the drivers and half the tender wheels picked up power, detailing was minimal, and the plastic gear in the gear tower didn't last too long. From the factory, the loco was very light and can hardly pull it's tender. Of course, there's no sound, no DCC plug...heck, there's no headlight.
2). Buy a W&R brass version from the early-1990's. Factory painted, the loco goes for over $1000 today (it was $800 new). The electrical pick-up is the same as the NJ/CB version, but the drive is solid. Heavier then the NJ/CB, it still needs some lead for weight to max out it's performance. Very well detailed, even the gauges in the cab are painted white. No DCC plug, but it does have a headlight. Runs like a Swiss watch like all W&R locos do.
3). Build one yourself...but only if you're John Pryke.
The way I see it, my BLI hybrid I-5 costs less than any other commercial option and gives me DCC, sound, and superior performance. Just $359 is a bargain compared to all other options. I'm glad BLI made it, and run it whenever I can.
Paul A. Cutler III*******************Weather Or No Go New Haven*******************
Great post Paul. I actually might be buying one of those in the near future. Can't wait for the Q2 to come out.
Milepost 266.2jwhittenI guess it really does depends on how you look at it. Since BLI prices their stuff so high. I just don't buy it. From a business perspective, its hard to comprehend the money you *didn't* make because people didn't spend their money with you. Which is not the same as people not spending money at all. They just chose to spend it elsewhere.I don't quite get this. Sure, they'll move more units at a lower price, but will they make the same profit?Lets say the goal is to make $10,000. You could sell 100 engines that make $100 profit, or you could sell 500 engines that make $20. One thing I think BLI is very good at is understanding the business end of things. Will you sell all 500? What do you do if some perceived problem is trumped up on a message board and you're sitting there with 400 unsold locos? You can't really put them on sale to justify the price because the margin is already so low. BLI's been playing with price structure, product lines, and distribution models for a while now. I imagine they've got a pretty good idea what sells and what doesn't.There's also the notion of protecting the brand. Apple computer is big on this. Steve Jobs has stated he doesn't want to sell a computer that costs less than $500 cause it would be "crap". Whether a sub-$500 PC is crap or not is a different topic, but the lesson here is that people will pay for quality and exclusivity. Bachmann, with their extreme discounts to basement dealers and ebay sellers, is the polar opposite of this. No one pays MSRP, and few even pay 50% of that. The brand develops a reputation as a "cheap" item.
I have a hard time believing that it costs so much more for BLI to put out a locomotive than it does for say Bachmann Spectrum, Walthers Proto 2000, etc. Sure there are some initial research, modeling, setting up, carving dies, etc-- but all the companies have to do that. That work is essentially the overhead of the business. After that its a matter of stamping out plastic parts, putting together power train assemblies, slapping on an printed circuit board and soldering a few wires, giving it a go around the test track and stuffing it in a box. If the loco is longer and has a few more wheels, there's obviously going to be a slight increase in cost. So from a "parts is parts" perspective, there's nothing all that outstanding about a BLI locomotive. They're good, but in the same league as the other mgrs I mentioned. Sound is an extra factor that's worth some extra bucks for, but their pricing seems to be way above even that adjustment. (And they then have the temerity to say that they don't include a DCC decoder to "save money"-- I know, the new ones are all-in-one)
Milepost 266.2 One thing I think BLI is very good at is understanding the business end of things.
One thing I think BLI is very good at is understanding the business end of things.
Why? What makes you say that? Maybe they do, maybe they don't. The world is full of people with good products and intentions who didn't have a clue about business strategies who ended up crashing on the rock of broken dreams-- or worse, just languishing.
Doesn't mean they're bad people. Or that they make bad products. Or undesirable products. Or even that they're stupid. Steve Jobs is super lucky. Of course he's a billionaire now and hire people to brush up his image. Same with Bill Gates. They were extremely fortunate to have the right thing at the right time in the right place when lightning struck. And I find it interesting now that times are hard and economics suck, even good ole' Jobs is changing his tune and lowering his prices. I guess its better to sell "crap" pc's than no pc's at all-- which, if you'll survey that market, is pretty much what's happening these days. Forget "Cash for Clunkers", the feds need to do up a "Morphine Drip for the PC Industry" program.
Milepost 266.2 BLI's been playing with price structure, product lines, and distribution models for a while now. I imagine they've got a pretty good idea what sells and what doesn't.
BLI's been playing with price structure, product lines, and distribution models for a while now. I imagine they've got a pretty good idea what sells and what doesn't.
That's interesting because one of the things you hear a lot about BLI (here and on other forums) is how they come out with new products priced high, sell off a bunch at near MSRP, and then dump the rest for a lot less. Which would tend to indicate that they made their mfgr costs back at the high price and them dumped them some time later to get whatever they could so they wouldn't have to pay for warehousing static inventory. And from an observational point-of-view (my own), it seems to hold up since that's how I've gotten the few I have.
Meanwhile Bachmann and Athearn and the others keep pumping out products year-after-year and selling reasonable stuff. If it were me, those are the folks I'd be pointing to as folks who might have a clue. Although I agree you're right that BLI has evidently found themselves a business model that at least permits them to sustain their operations. The key question is- are there people standing around with cash in their pockets who would spend those dollars with BLI if only the price were a little less? And if so, is the profit from the increase in sales by lowering the price more than the profit derived from selling only to the nose-bleed crowd?
I don't know the answer to that, and I suspect that if BLI is lurking here they probably wouldn't want to respond to that publically either. So I guess we'll never know unless an industry insider wants to step up and spill some beans.