Does anybody know of any article-- online or MR back issue perhaps-- detailing or discussing techniques or approaches to adding a belpaire firebox to a locomotive with a regular firebox?
I have a number of locos that I want to refit and I'm looking for advice, info or articles about how to go about it. None of them are brass. (If I could afford brass, I'd have gotten locos with the right fireboxes in the first place! :)
John
I have been thinking about that for a long time. The square corners of the firebox could be made from various materials including plastic or metal. Then they could be glued on and with some filling and shaping they would give that "Pennsy look". A certain amount of super-detail parts could be added to complete the project.
I am still trying to finish the Bowser kits I bought years ago. As soon I complete them the Belpaire conversions are next, if I live that long.
Doc
topcopdocI have been thinking about that for a long time. The square corners of the firebox could be made from various materials including plastic or metal. Then they could be glued on and with some filling and shaping they would give that "Pennsy look". A certain amount of super-detail parts could be added to complete the project. I am still trying to finish the Bowser kits I bought years ago. As soon I complete them the Belpaire conversions are next, if I live that long. Doc
Thanks for the reply! I was beginning to think I was talking to the crickets on this one...
I wonder if you could just use some flat pieces of styrene in a kind of a 'U' shape and then slip that down over the boiler. Once it was in-place, use putty and some sanding to get the rounded edges.
I guess I need to get some toss-away locos to test it out on.
jwhittenI wonder if you could just use some flat pieces of styrene in a kind of a 'U' shape and then slip that down over the boiler. Once it was in-place, use putty and some sanding to get the rounded edges.I guess I need to get some toss-away locos to test it out on.
That was my first thought when I saw this. Only problem is that I don't know if a sheet of styrene would hold its shape when bent. If you just stuck 3 pieces together in a U shape, you wouldn't have the rounded edges of a Belpaire. Though I suppose you could sand the edges to a curve if you put some putty on the inside of each corner.
Good Luck!
--Jake
Jake1210jwhittenI wonder if you could just use some flat pieces of styrene in a kind of a 'U' shape and then slip that down over the boiler. Once it was in-place, use putty and some sanding to get the rounded edges.I guess I need to get some toss-away locos to test it out on. That was my first thought when I saw this. Only problem is that I don't know if a sheet of styrene would hold its shape when bent. If you just stuck 3 pieces together in a U shape, you wouldn't have the rounded edges of a Belpaire. Though I suppose you could sand the edges to a curve if you put some putty on the inside of each corner.Good Luck!--Jake
I was thinking of rounding off the corners but hadn't thought about putting putty inside the corners. That makes sense though. I just hadn't gotten that far in my thinking. Thanks for the suggestion.
jwhitten Does anybody know of any article-- online or MR back issue perhaps-- detailing or discussing techniques or approaches to adding a belpaire firebox to a locomotive with a regular firebox?
Hi John;
You can often find an older Bachmann Spectrum K4 (damaged) on that auction site for a low price. You could cut out it's firebox to make your master, to either mold or form out of sheet.
Another choice, which seems to be kind of where you were heading to start with is to take a rectangular block of wood or aluminum; cut it to the correct thickness, then radius the top corners. Drape the sheet styrene over the form, and apply heat slowly - a 1500W hair dryer is probably sufficient - and oven is way too hot. Once cool, the plastic will hold it's shape fairly well, but should be tacked to the radial fire box underneath.
Note on some PRR locomotives, the fire box was narrower than the course in front of it, some the same width, and some wider.
7j43kjwhitten Does anybody know of any article-- online or MR back issue perhaps-- detailing or discussing techniques or approaches to adding a belpaire firebox to a locomotive with a regular firebox? Yes, I do. On either this forum or the Atlas forum, I have described in detail my method for converting standard fireboxes to Belpaire. I basically built a form, poured in some epoxy, stripped the form, filed/sanded it down, added "boiler bands". For the two I did, the cab was removable. With a cab attached to the boiler, I think this method would not be a wise choice. Ed
Ed
Thanks for the reply Ed. I'd like to see if I can chase down your conversion article. Do you by chance happen to remember the approx date? Or year?
nfmissoHi John; You can often find an older Bachmann Spectrum K4 (damaged) on that auction site for a low price. You could cut out it's firebox to make your master, to either mold or form out of sheet. Another choice, which seems to be kind of where you were heading to start with is to take a rectangular block of wood or aluminum; cut it to the correct thickness, then radius the top corners. Drape the sheet styrene over the form, and apply heat slowly - a 1500W hair dryer is probably sufficient - and oven is way too hot. Once cool, the plastic will hold it's shape fairly well, but should be tacked to the radial fire box underneath. Note on some PRR locomotives, the fire box was narrower than the course in front of it, some the same width, and some wider.
Those are some good suggestions. Especially heat-warping styrene over a wooden form. That sounds like a pretty good idea and one that I could easily try without sacrificing a loco in the process... If I can get the rough shape, I can fill the corners as an earlier responder suggested and sand it down the rest of the way.
I hadn't thought of using a damaged K4 either. I happen to have a small fleet of K4's and one of them I recall took a six-foot plunge to the floor-- carpeted fortunately, so not too much damage. But I haven't ever gotten around to fixing it. Wonder if I could use it as a shape to make a mold from?
John,
All good ideas here, and I was also thinking about rounding a styrene box with putty on the inside corners and joints. Nigel's suggestion is basically a vacuform technique, minus the vacuum. As for the Bachmann K4 method, Dave Vollmer kitsmashed a large Pennsy steamer out of a Consolidation (IIRC), and used the Belpaire from another shell. I think he had progress photos here at the time. Maybe you should shoot him a PM.
Nelson
Ex-Southern 385 Being Hoisted
jwhittenThanks for the reply Ed. I'd like to see if I can chase down your conversion article. Do you by chance happen to remember the approx date? Or year?
7j43kjwhittenThanks for the reply Ed. I'd like to see if I can chase down your conversion article. Do you by chance happen to remember the approx date? Or year? I can't recall the dates. I tried a search on the Atlas forum--no luck. If you've got a lot of time (and we all do) you can do a search for "belpaire". As I recall, additional points to consider: Everything should be clean so you get a good bond. Epoxy likes to leak out. You should first fill the form with a "sealing layer" to fill the cracks. Pour some in and pour it out. There'll be bubbles and oopses. You'll probably have to go back with several repair layers after you strip the forms and rough-shape the blob. The boiler bands will have to be epoxied on. Of course, if you make a mistake, you can file them off and try again. Since I used metal castings as a base, the heat generated by the epoxy reaction wasn't a problem. I don't know how much heat would be generated, so there could be problems with a plastic boiler. I just cast the blob in one pour. With plastic, maybe I'd use several. Ed
Yes, that's another good tip- I definitely think I'm going to try it on locos I can live without until I come up with a suitable and repeatable technique.
Another minor issue is going to be figuring out the size/shape of the underlying boiler. Maybe one of those universal contour tools with the pins would work.
Hi. What exactly are you trying to do?
I need a fleet of H10 consolidations, and the choices are 1950 technology Bowser and 1960 technology expensive brass. (I guess the even higher dollar Sunsets are 1980 technology) I'm not crazy about either choice. I'm currently conducting expiriments with MDC/Roundhouse PRR boilers.
I have one mated to a cut down BLI 2-8-2 frame that looks good and runs great. It was not a project for the faint of heart but it turned out so well that I'm starting another. BLI 2-8-2 units are going for $100-$150 on ebay, and you get the correct PRR valve gear, drivers only 1 scale inch too large, and DCC and sound as a kicker. MDC PRR models can be had for $10-$25.
I have an IHC 2-8-0 that I will also attempt to use as a host, but It will be hard to beat the BLI drive.
I also have a Gem H10, which I'm re motoring/regearing. So far this has been a money pit, although it looks marginally better, it's still not running after looking for ever for a motor and gearbox that would fit.
FYI the Bachman 2-8-0 and Genesis 2-8-2 are extremely difficult to work with as there is a weight inside the boiler that is integrated with the gearbox and driveline,making it almost impossible tomodify,or accept a different boiler shell.
I am also thinking about using the Bachman K4 boiler on one of the BLI 2-8-2 drives to make an L1.
jwhitten I definitely think I'm going to try it on locos I can live without until I come up with a suitable and repeatable technique. Another minor issue is going to be figuring out the size/shape of the underlying boiler.
I definitely think I'm going to try it on locos I can live without until I come up with a suitable and repeatable technique.
Another minor issue is going to be figuring out the size/shape of the underlying boiler.
A lot of this depends on what kind of realism you would like. Modelers in the past have use sheet brass and pressed rivets into the brass sheet before forming the brass. You can do that with styrene also. Take Patience and practice. Below are some possible idea sources.
[url]http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/2236/boileratstrasburgto8.jpg" target="_blank" title="http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20100[/urll]
[url]http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/2236/boileratstrasburgto8.jpg">http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20100[/urll]
[url]http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/2236/boileratstrasburgto8.jpg
http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/2169/grp2roofsheetju2.jpg
http://www.nr.nps.gov/multiples/64000729.pdf
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
1948PRRHi. What exactly are you trying to do? I need a fleet of H10 consolidations, and the choices are 1950 technology Bowser and 1960 technology expensive brass. (I guess the even higher dollar Sunsets are 1980 technology) I'm not crazy about either choice. I'm currently conducting expiriments with MDC/Roundhouse PRR boilers. I have one mated to a cut down BLI 2-8-2 frame that looks good and runs great. It was not a project for the faint of heart but it turned out so well that I'm starting another. BLI 2-8-2 units are going for $100-$150 on ebay, and you get the correct PRR valve gear, drivers only 1 scale inch too large, and DCC and sound as a kicker. MDC PRR models can be had for $10-$25. I have an IHC 2-8-0 that I will also attempt to use as a host, but It will be hard to beat the BLI drive. I also have a Gem H10, which I'm re motoring/regearing. So far this has been a money pit, although it looks marginally better, it's still not running after looking for ever for a motor and gearbox that would fit. FYI the Bachman 2-8-0 and Genesis 2-8-2 are extremely difficult to work with as there is a weight inside the boiler that is integrated with the gearbox and driveline,making it almost impossible tomodify,or accept a different boiler shell. I am also thinking about using the Bachman K4 boiler on one of the BLI 2-8-2 drives to make an L1.
My thinking is to see if I can make some sort of "cover" that I can (permanently) slip over the firebox area to give it the Belpaire shape, which will have to include the area underneath the side walkways too.
richg1998 A lot of this depends on what kind of realism you would like. Modelers in the past have use sheet brass and pressed rivets into the brass sheet before forming the brass. You can do that with styrene also. Take Patience and practice. Below are some possible idea sources.[url]http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/2236/boileratstrasburgto8.jpg" target="_blank" title="http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20100[/urll][url]http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/2236/boileratstrasburgto8.jpg">http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20100[/urll][url]http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/2236/boileratstrasburgto8.jpghttp://img120.imageshack.us/img120/2169/grp2roofsheetju2.jpghttp://www.nr.nps.gov/multiples/64000729.pdfRich
That piece about the trains on the National Historic Places Registry was really interesting. Thanks!
richg1998 http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/2169/grp2roofsheetju2.jpgRich
Actually that last image ("grp2roofsheetju2.jpg") is very similar to what I had in my mind to try to do in plastic, or something similar. To fit over the boiler like a cap.
I know its going to take some trial-and-error. I don't expect to get it right on the first go. And once Ido figure it out, my hope is to figure out a way to make some sort of a casting, or mold or something so I can replicate it a number of times to fit other locos.
I'm not a rivet-counter but I would like for the locos to have a little more of the traditional "Pennsy" look to them. But I am going to move the headlamps, generators, bells, and such, and probably switch out some pilots at the very least, in addition to getting the 'Belpaire' hump. Then probably add a few detail parts such as the big air cylinders on top of the pilot and that sort of thing.
OTOH, I'm always willing to consider trading up for brass... ;)
Some people have used a hardwood block, small nail and a small hammer to make rivets. A little practice would be needed.
Some have used an automatic center punch. This tool has a adjustable pressure. Look in the tool section of Sears. The tool is not expensive and it doubles as a center punch for punching a spot to start drilling. The tool has a sharp point that can be rounded with a little bit of sand paper or file if the rivet is not round after punching. Again, experiment
What I meant by "exactly" ,is:
What manufacturer and model are you working on, and what type of locomotive are you trying to approximate?
Is it an IHC? Athearn? Tyco?
What wheel arrangement?
What era are you modeling?
There are several PRR engines available currently, with a huge glaring exception of the H class 2-8-0, which in my opinion would be a sure fire seller, and be perfectly suited to the "average" sized layout.
Look closely at pictures, especially builders photos, and you will see that the firebox and crown sheet (top and most noticeably square part) are different sizes on different classes. I think the most disproportionately long one is the M1.Most correrespond to the length of the ash pan.
Well, I've never built one, but it seems to me that there's another option and, perhaps, a much simpler solution.
Here's a picture of a Pennsy K-4, with the cab and boiler/firebox lagging removed:
Except at the sides, where it's about the same width as the barrel of the boiler, the firebox is wider and generally straight-sided. Using sheet styrene of a suitable thickness (I'd suggest .030" or thicker) fashion a front for the new firebox, making it as wide as the widest part of the boiler at the point along its length where you wish to install it. Cut slots into the sides (only) of the boiler at that point, as wide as the material used, and as deep as the boiler sides are thick. Angle them front-to-back as required by your prototype. Remove material from the new firebox front until you're left with an upside-down "U"-shaped piece that will slip over the boiler top, the sides sliding into the cut slots, and the bottoms of the legs of the "U" resting atop the running boards. Trim the inside of the curve along the bottom of the "U", which should sit atop the boiler shell, until you get a good fit.
Next, use a large mill file to remove material from the outside of the boiler barrel where it will be covered by the new firebox - this needs to be done only at the widest part of the boiler, where it would interfere with the inside face of the new firebox sides. Remove as much material as you can - at least .010" from each side, although .030" or .040" would be even better. Because you're only removing material from the widest area, you should be able to safely file right through the shell at this point. This will allow you to use the thickest material possible for the firebox sides.
Using sheet styrene of a suitable thickness, cut new firebox sides to suit the loco upon which you're working - length and height will depend on the model and on the prototype drawings or photos which you're following. The bottom edges of the sides should sit atop the running boards. Similarly, cut a new top for the firebox, using the thickest material possible. You'll have to decide if the front should overlap the sides or vice-versa, and likewise for the top/front and top/sides joints. Regardless of which way you do it, the overlapping piece can be larger than required. Use a good liquid solvent cement (lacquer thinner will work fine) to join all pieces - it's probably best to assemble it in place on the loco, and, if necessary, also cement it to the loco. When the cement has fully cured (overnight at least), use a file, sandpaper, etc. to shape the curved corners - this is the main reason for using thick styrene. With a good bond, the filed joints should be both strong and invisible. If you are unable to use thick material because of the limitations of your particular model, use styrene strip, of the greatest size that will fit within the confines of the space between the boiler shell and the inside of the new firebox, to reinforce the corners of the thinner firebox shell - this should still provide sufficient material for you to file the rounded outside corners, particularly those along the top edges and top front corners.
The advantages of using all-styrene are that all pieces will essentially become a single entity once cemented together, allowing filing to-shape without the risk of parts separating. You can use strips of .005" or .010" thick material for boiler bands, etc., and the styrene will be easy to drill for handrail stanchions and other detail parts, too.
Wayne