To all who have been following this thread:
I have always believed that the main reason that the Intermountain wheelsets work so well is the reduced diameter of the axle outside of the wheel, and the resultant smaller cone on the end of the axle.
I believe that with sprung trucks it is impossible to expect the sideframes to remain at a right angle to the bolster or the axle, therefore more flex is needed and more side play in the axle is a help not a hindrance. The fact that the trucks equalize makes them more able to always self center, even with this "extra" play, when compaired to rigid sideframe trucks.
I would in fact agree with the idea that on rigid sideframe trucks, the least amount of side play that results in free rolling is best. But not necessarly so with sprung trucks. The movement factor changes everything.
And to repeat if I may, it is the smaller axle outside the wheel on the Intermountain (and Reboxx) wheel sets that make them roll better. Actually, I think if Kadee would just redesign the end of their delrin axle, they would have the most free rolling truck ever made.
Again, I realize other methods work well, and mine is not the least expensive or easiest, but for me the look, tracking, and superior rolling qualities of metal sprung trucks are worth the time and money.
Sheldon
Gentlemen,
First off, let me say that the wheelsets were oriented correctly! No shorts from that. I've got Kadee Bettendorf trucks, but I don't like the black wheels and someday, I would like to be able to install resistors on wheelsets for signals, block detection, etc. I also agree with most here that the IM wheelsets roll more freely than the Kadee wheelsets. I just did some measuring with a micrometer and here's what I found. The Kadee wheelsets are 1.010" long. The diameter of the shaft right before it begins to taper to the point is 0.089" (measured with calipers, couldn't get the micrometer in there!). The IM wheelsets are 1.0028" long. The diameter of the shaft right before it begins to taper is 0.060". I'm starting to think that the combination of shorter wheelset + smaller diameter shaft + 18" radius curves will not work out. This stinks because after reading Sheldon's posts a few weeks ago, I tested this on my straight yard tracks and agree with his results, the Kadee/IM combo rolled almost twice as far as a Kadee truck/Kadee wheelset combo. I may look at the Reboxx wheelsets for my 40-50 cars with Kadee trucks and use the IM wheelsets on the plastic trucks. I also saw no need to use the truck tuner on the Kadee trucks but wanted to see if anybody had experience pro or con with that. Thanks again for the advice and personal experiences.
Keith Baker
NeutrinoThese "standard replacement axles are approximately 1.010 wide, Kadee's on the other hand are 1.018 to 1.021 on the 70 Barber RB truck, hence they are wider and fit better. All that slop in the trucks can make the car run missaligned through turnouts and definetly through 18" radius curves. Reboxx is the only replacement axle that will fit correctly. http://www.reboxx.com/wheelsets.htm Download the .pdf files for the correct axle lengths for any truck made. Don't forget that these are also .088 tread width or semi-scale, and may not work as well as standard plastic trucks with .110 tread widths on your trackwork.
Jerry,
I have a question, and/or comment about this statement. I don't generally use Kadee roller bearing trucks because they are outside my era for most of my rolling stock. I model 1954 and the 70 ton Barber's where just starting to appear on things like the new 75' trailer flats. Everything else was ASF ride control and Bettendorf styles or a few Timken 50 ton roller bearing styles (which Kadee does not make). So I cannot directly comment on the 70 ton RB's since I don't have dozens of them laying around like I do the ASF and Bettendorf styles.
Anyway, I just went to the workshop and measured a bunch of Kadee 33" wheel sets. Their axle lengths where all between 1.010" and 1.012". They all came out of Kadee ASF ride control or Bettendorf trucks. Reboxx's recommendations aside, how could the 1.010" Intermountains (which I measured also) not be a suitable replacement?
Somehow I doubt Kadee is making different length axles for each truck, especially in view of the fact that they sell the wheel sets seperately.
I am not disputing the work done by Reboxx regarding their recommendations, but as I said before the question is how much play is too much.
Not trying to be argumentitive here, you just got me thinking about stuff I checked years ago and am now rechecking.
But based on the parts on my workbench, my caliper says they should work just as my results say they do. Why is your data different?
ATLANTIC CENTRALgmcrailMetal axles in metal sideframes sometimes do not roll as well as metal axles in plastic sideframes. On my layout, which is small, the longest trains are less than 20 cars long, so this isn't a problem for me. As mentioned every time I have posted about this, I put a drop of oil in the journals at assembly. My Kadee/Intermountain combo trucks roll better than anything I have been able to find - I tested them all.
gmcrailMetal axles in metal sideframes sometimes do not roll as well as metal axles in plastic sideframes. On my layout, which is small, the longest trains are less than 20 cars long, so this isn't a problem for me.
As mentioned every time I have posted about this, I put a drop of oil in the journals at assembly. My Kadee/Intermountain combo trucks roll better than anything I have been able to find - I tested them all.
I agree that the Kadee sideframes work very well, but at more than $6 a pop, I can't afford enough to do all my cars. And I oil the journals also.
ATLANTIC CENTRALYes the reamer works on metal - but - it will wear out in such use and I found it to be of no benifit with the metal trucks.
I agree as to its lack of benefit. But, the OP asked. I had the same question, and emailed Reboxx; their reply:
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Yes, indeed. It's made from drill stock suitable for metals.John BurroughsGary M. Collins wrote:> Can the subject tool be used on metal sideframes (e.g: Kadee, old> Athearn, Varney)?>> Thanks...Gary M. Collins
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Gary M. Collins gmcrailgNOSPAM@gmail.com
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"Common Sense, Ain't!" -- G. M. Collins
http://fhn.site90.net
Sheldon,
I didn't say you were incorrect, just the width of the axles you're using. Most people using inexpensive switches have problems with narrower tread wheels and the wide ones are fine for people who need to use them.
Your hobby money is better spent on what works for you, not someone else. I fully understand that everyone doesn't have perfect track work or the smoothest turnouts and even if they did, they still might prefer the bigger couplers and oversize wheel threads. It's your hobby so run it like you wanna.
I was pointing out a time honored axiom that you shouldn't oil your journals and for the reasons stated. Just like not using real dirt for ballast, until you bake it and run a strong magnet over it. Your dirt/ballast might be iron free, but lo the person who thinks a suggestion to scoop up some from the backyard and start ballasting, is a good idea! You'd be into some other hobby pretty quickly.
Thanks for the kudos on the car. www.weatheringsolutions.net for more.
Jerry
P.S. - I don't mind being "incorrect".
I also don't use those "correct" semi scale couplers, or those "correct" DCC systems, or that "correct" onboard sound, or the "correct" overpriced track products.
But my trains run good and stay on the track and I have been having lots of fun with them since 1967.
NeutrinoAssuming that the insulated wheels are correctly installed... I think all the IM axles are insulated on both sides IIRC.
No they are only insulated on one side.
That is a nice looking model by the way.
Neutrino "While I understand all the facts regarding axle length, fact is all pointed axles ride on the top of the axle/journal cone, not on the point. If the axles are long enough to actually ride on the point, then their tight fit would not produce a free rolling truck. The only real question is how much play is too much play. Opinons vary." When the axle slop allows a cars wheels to touch a metal frame. Whatta ya gonna get? "As mentioned every time I have posted about this, I put a drop of oil in the journals at assembly. My Kadee/Intermountain combo trucks roll better than anything I have been able to find - I tested them all." You obviously never used the correct width Reboxx axles. Putting oil in a journal box just makes a magnet for dirt and anything else that will stick, Dry graphite will stay put longer and not cause the same problems. "Yes the reamer works on metal - but - it will wear out in such use and I found it to be of no benefit with the metal trucks." My screwdrivers work as a chisel too, but I found them to be of no benefit as screw drivers afterwords either. At $14 a pop, the reamer works better as a tool for plastic trucks, but makes a swell metal punch. Just because it works for you doesn't mean that the correct parts won't work for 99% of others seeking advise.
"While I understand all the facts regarding axle length, fact is all pointed axles ride on the top of the axle/journal cone, not on the point. If the axles are long enough to actually ride on the point, then their tight fit would not produce a free rolling truck. The only real question is how much play is too much play. Opinons vary."
When the axle slop allows a cars wheels to touch a metal frame. Whatta ya gonna get?
"As mentioned every time I have posted about this, I put a drop of oil in the journals at assembly. My Kadee/Intermountain combo trucks roll better than anything I have been able to find - I tested them all."
You obviously never used the correct width Reboxx axles. Putting oil in a journal box just makes a magnet for dirt and anything else that will stick, Dry graphite will stay put longer and not cause the same problems.
"Yes the reamer works on metal - but - it will wear out in such use and I found it to be of no benefit with the metal trucks."
My screwdrivers work as a chisel too, but I found them to be of no benefit as screw drivers afterwords either. At $14 a pop, the reamer works better as a tool for plastic trucks, but makes a swell metal punch.
Just because it works for you doesn't mean that the correct parts won't work for 99% of others seeking advise.
I have sat and played, pushed, wiggled, rolled, etc, Kadee trucks with Intermountain wheelsets and have yet to get a wheel to rub a sideframe. I'm not saying it can't happen, but as I suggested before, there are most likely other factors, like the wheels hitting the underframe on sharp curves. I openly admitted I don't have any curves that sharp so its not a problem for me.
I did not deny the validity of using Reboxx wheelsets, but as YOU pointed out, they are semi scale treads. I have tested semi scale treads with the trackage I build/use and do not like the performance. So I prefer to stay with NMRA standard track and wheel products.
The oil has NEVER been a problem. It is such a small amount and it soaks into the cast metal. I tried graphite it didn't work as well. The other guy on here who uses the Kadee/Intermountain combo uses grease - that apparently works fine for him. Maybe you need a cleaner invironment for your layout.
I NEVER implyed or stated that my way of doing this was the ONLY way that works. BUT, the OP did refer to me and asked a specific question about info I had posted in other threads. I answered his questions and the questions/comments of others.
One fellow modeler in our group was into the reboxx thing big, then he noticed how rough they bounce through his code 100 Atlas turnouts. Now he just pops Intermountain wheels in everything.
I full well understand that you are no doubt the worlds formost authority on this, but I will continue to do what my own experiance has shown to work and will share those ideas with any who ask.
Mr. SP Why not just keep the Kadee wheels in the Kadee trucks? I use Kadee trucks exclusivly with no modification and have no problems with derailments, shorts, or other maladies.
Why not just keep the Kadee wheels in the Kadee trucks? I use Kadee trucks exclusivly with no modification and have no problems with derailments, shorts, or other maladies.
I understand, that's what I used to do, but in the quest for more free rolling trucks to allow longer trains to pulled by any given locomotive or locomotive set, I discovered this combination. I want metal sprung/equalized trucks and I want them free rolling. And I don't have any problems with them with the Intermountain wheelsets.
I have spoken to Sam at Kadee and he admits their trucks are not a free rolling as many out there today. BUT, with Intermountain wheelsets, they are more free rolling than anything I have found. Pulling capacity of my locos is increased 30% with trains fully equiped with this setup.
Yes the reamer works on metal - but - it will wear out in such use and I found it to be of no benifit with the metal trucks.
These free rolling trucks allow two Spectrum 2-8-0's to pull 40-50 cars.
Neutrino The main problem is, the IM wheels (or LL, or Branchline, etc.) are too narrow. The axle point rides at the top of the journal, not in the center where it belongs. If you hold onto the truck and wiggle the axle, you'll see what I mean. Watch the truck as you set the car on the tracks and the truck will settle after the wheel stop on the rail head.The truck is so loose it will actually touch the inside of the truck sideframe when going through tight turns. These "standard replacement axles are approximately 1.010 wide, Kadee's on the other hand are 1.018 to 1.021 on the 70 Barber RB truck, hence they are wider and fit better. All that slop in the trucks can make the car run missaligned through turnouts and definetly through 18" radius curves. Reboxx is the only replacement axle that will fit correctly. http://www.reboxx.com/wheelsets.htm Download the .pdf files for the correct axle lengths for any truck made. Don't forget that these are also .088 tread width or semi-scale, and may not work as well as standard plastic trucks with .110 tread widths on your trackwork.
The main problem is, the IM wheels (or LL, or Branchline, etc.) are too narrow. The axle point rides at the top of the journal, not in the center where it belongs. If you hold onto the truck and wiggle the axle, you'll see what I mean. Watch the truck as you set the car on the tracks and the truck will settle after the wheel stop on the rail head.The truck is so loose it will actually touch the inside of the truck sideframe when going through tight turns.
These "standard replacement axles are approximately 1.010 wide, Kadee's on the other hand are 1.018 to 1.021 on the 70 Barber RB truck, hence they are wider and fit better. All that slop in the trucks can make the car run missaligned through turnouts and definetly through 18" radius curves. Reboxx is the only replacement axle that will fit correctly. http://www.reboxx.com/wheelsets.htm Download the .pdf files for the correct axle lengths for any truck made. Don't forget that these are also .088 tread width or semi-scale, and may not work as well as standard plastic trucks with .110 tread widths on your trackwork.
While I understand all the facts regarding axle length, fact is all pointed axles ride on the top of the axle/journal cone, not on the point. If the axles are long enough to actually ride on the point, then their tight fit would not produce a free rolling truck. The only real question is how much play is too much play. Opinons vary.
I tested Reboxx wheels and the results where no better. As you point out, semi scale wheels may not be a good choice for everyones trackwork. I do not use them for those reasons. Anyone who does not understand wheel tread width issues should go to the Fast Tracks web site and watch their videos on frogs.
The shorter axle Intermountain wheelsets work fine in Kadee trucks because of the reduced axle diameter outside the wheel. Proto and others do not work well in Kadee trucks because their larger wheel axle cone can bind in the Kadee journal.
Hundreds of freight cars and 30% improved pulling capacity can not be wrong. I have no problems with poor tracking, quite the oposite actually, but as admitted, I don't have any 18" radius curves either.
kbaker329Also, I'm assuming the MicroMark truck tuner is for plastic trucks only, or will it work on metal trucks.
The Micro Mark truck tuner is the same as the Reboxx one, and according to Reboxx, it works equally well with metal sideframes. It's made of steel drill rod stock, so it should work very well on cast metal sideframes. I've tried it. It does.
I am nearing completion on a project to convert my freight car fleet from plastic rigid trucks to metal (and cerrtain plastic - e.g.: Lindberg) sideframe sprung trucks, all with Reboxx "semi-scale" (0.088" tread, as compared to the 0.110" treads of the NMRA wheel standard) wheelsets. I have made some interesting observations regarding the whole sprung-truck and wheelset question.
I have used old Varney, Athearn, Ulrich, Kadee and Silver Streak trucks, as well as some unknown ones. All seem to perform equally well.
A question for all: Who used to make models of Vulcan trucks? I found a pair in a lot of trucks I picked up on the auction site, and I don't recall ever seeing any before... Kinda neat looking, though.
Keith, if your wheelsets are touching the sideframe, the axles are too short, causing the wheels to slip too far to the side. Normally that should not be a problem. I suspect, as others have mentioned, that the shorting is in the journals, because you've gotten a wheelset swapped end-for-end. It happens. Trust me.
Assuming that the insulated wheels are correctly installed... I think all the IM axles are insulated on both sides IIRC.
Reboxx's reamer is for plastic trucks only, Atlas trucks tend to be narrower and you can ream them out to fit a standard 1.010 replacement axle with this tool too.
These had to be relpaced, besides being rusty when they should have been black and greasy, I mean. These are IM .088 replacement wheels which would almost fall out of the truck they were so sloppy.
You can see in this end shot that the axle is not even close to the center of the journal box where they belong.
Keith,
I would be inclined to suspect that your 18" radius curves are the problem. It is possible that the wheels are hitting the underframe of the car and this is pushing the wheelsets into the sideframes.
I must admit, I don't run any 18" radius curves. My minimum mainline radius is 36", yards, industries, etc, are all in the 24" range or larger.
I would look closely for the cause - because - any such cause will have other operational drawbacks at some point. It may be in the form of derailments or extra drag effecting performance, etc.
Thanks for the responses. I did make sure that the insulated sides were correct before trying. I tried to run the two test cars again and I have no problems on straight track. However, on 18" radius curves, I see (and smell) some arcing and and am definitely shorting out. It appears from looking at just the truck and wheelset that the side of the wheel can come into contact with the truck. I'll have to decide if I want to go to Kadee trucks on my cars. I may do so more experimenting with this. Thanks again to all for the advice and personal experiences.
I have over 200 cars equipped with KD trucks with Intermountain wheels. They run fine, I have no shorts or arching.Thesetup is very free-rolling and being truly sprung and equalized (like the prototypes) my cars are very forgiving to track imperfections and never derail.
I've never had any problems with Kadee trucks. I use ONLY Kadee trucks on my freight cars.
loathar I've had problems with the sprung metal KD's so I avoid them.
I've had problems with the sprung metal KD's so I avoid them.
After reading this I popped some IM's into some sprung, metal KD's and I see where the truck flexing could give you problems if the axles weren't oriented correctly. I've had problems with the sprung metal KD's so I avoid them.Just bought some Athearn plastic trucks with metal wheels and they are great for $3.00/pair! The IM wheels sets rock too.
I don't know what you did to get a short circuit. If you "tested" it not on a car, and pressing on it with your finger, that might be possible, but thats not a valid test. In a properly assembled truck, the wheels will never touch the sideframes. As mentioned, both insulated wheels need to be on the same side, or you will have a dead short. I have hundreds of pieces of rolling stock with metal trucks and metal axles with only one side insulated, never had a problem in 30 years. Metal trucks where the standard for many years (40's, 50's and into the 60's) in this hobby. If they didn't work Kadee, Central Valley and a host of others would not have made millions of them. All Kadee freight cars come with the same metal trucks they sell individually.
The Kadee - Intermountain set up is very free rolling and tracks exceptionally well. It adds weight down low, often allowing cars to be lighter overall, and allows for electrical pickup for things like caboose lighting or resistors on wheelsets for detection. In my tests they roll more freely than ANY plastic sideframe truck. They increased the pulling capacity of most of my locos by over 30%.
Do not use the truck turner on metal trucks, there is no need. A very small drop of light oil should be placed in the journal before the new wheelsets are installed. This oil soaks into the cast metal of the truck and "perminately" lubricates it.
The other benifit of the Kadee trucks is the springs. They are not intended to "spring" the load, but to allow equalazation, the oposite, reactive flexing that keeps all the wheels equally on the rails. In the old days, many trucks that where not sprung where equalized by being made of three pieces, bolster and two sideframes, attached with screws to allow the sideframes to move. This was once considered very important, today some of us still believe it provides much better tracking and performance, even on the best trackwork.
I would advise using plastic trucks but if you insist on metal trucks just make sure your Intermountain metal wheel sets are correctly orientated with the insulated wheels all on the same side.Oh' and I'm pretty sure the track tuner is for plastic sideframes only.
I am planning on converting my rolling stock to Intermountain wheelsets and read an interesting thread a few weeks ago. A couple of guys, I think Atlantic Central was one of them, mentioned that they use Intermountain wheelsets with Kadee trucks. This got me to thinking about short circuits when the wheel may touch the side of the truck. So I tested it with a Kadee metal truck and an Intermountain wheelset and did see some arcing and had a few shorts. Does painting the wheel provide enough insulation, or is something else necessary? Or are the Kadee trucks in use made of plastic instead of metal. Also, I'm assuming the MicroMark truck tuner is for plastic trucks only, or will it work on metal trucks. Thanks for any information.