Guys,
We missed an engine, and I mislabeled it. I for one think this little guy is cute. And I earlier associated it with Spectrum, it's not, it's a Mantua. It's not technically a camelback, but it is around, DCC, and I've heard, a good little engine
-Morgan
We missed an engine, and I mislabeled it. I fo rone think this little guy is cute. And I earlier associated it with Spectrum, it's not, it's a Mantua. It's not technically a camelback, but it is around, and I've hear, a good little engine
CNJ831 SteamFreak New One made an 0-4-0 yard goat Camelback that was an Aristo Craft import, but many have succumbed to zinc rot. Interestingly, while New One Models produced arguably the crudest example of any camelback locomotive ever with their 0-4-0 switcher, they shortly afterwards executed perhaps the best looking, non-brass, HO camelback model in the form of a CNJ 4-6-0 passenger locomotive, which was sold under the AHM brand in the early 1960's (and to a lesser degree by Aristo-Craft). (photo source www.homauchchunk.co.uk) Why this model is not well known today comes from the fact that is was cast from an extremely inferior batch of zamac and most of the models began crumbling and distorting within just a few years of purchase. It is quite difficult to find a perfectly intact example today, with most of those showing up on eBay currently being in a horribly deteriorated state. CNJ831
SteamFreak New One made an 0-4-0 yard goat Camelback that was an Aristo Craft import, but many have succumbed to zinc rot.
New One made an 0-4-0 yard goat Camelback that was an Aristo Craft import, but many have succumbed to zinc rot.
Interestingly, while New One Models produced arguably the crudest example of any camelback locomotive ever with their 0-4-0 switcher, they shortly afterwards executed perhaps the best looking, non-brass, HO camelback model in the form of a CNJ 4-6-0 passenger locomotive, which was sold under the AHM brand in the early 1960's (and to a lesser degree by Aristo-Craft).
(photo source www.homauchchunk.co.uk)
Why this model is not well known today comes from the fact that is was cast from an extremely inferior batch of zamac and most of the models began crumbling and distorting within just a few years of purchase. It is quite difficult to find a perfectly intact example today, with most of those showing up on eBay currently being in a horribly deteriorated state.
CNJ831
Sometime very early in my model railroading career this issue of zinc contamination was addressed in MR . . . . . . . . . . and I believe that this New One Model's Camelback was the very item addressed in the commentary. I recall that several members of my club in Massachusetts had purchased these with the results specified in this posting. The problem was that by the time joesixpack realized there was a problem with his model it was (usually) too late to do anything about it. Somewhere or another along the line I picked up the tip--I can't tell you where and I can't verify its veracity--that pot metal should always be soaked in vinegar to eat away any (surface) contamination. As I said I have no way of verifying that this works but remembering this issue raised in that long ago issue of MR I never began work on a Bowser or Cary/Mantua without first giving it a thorough immersion in vinegar . . . . . . . . . . and I mean 24 hours or longer.
Didn't Hobbytown of Boston once experience a problem in this area?
New One was, apparently, not the only one to come to griefs over this issue. Somewhere I remember reading about a post-WWII entrepreneur--a Left Coast concern if I remember correctly: where else could something like this occur?--who showed considerable promise with his model railroad line but whose business was destroyed very quickly because he allowed his pot metal--model locomotives was only a sideline to a different enterprise but it too when down with his ship--to become contaminated. The weird thing about this story is that he didn't use zinc in his business at all but an adjacent enterprise did and that is where the contamination originated. Pot metal manufacturers such as Bowser and Mantua stayed afloat because they exercised extremely high levels of quality control insuring that their manufacturing facilities were sealed against accidental zinc contamination such as befell the cited gentleman.
It is extremely unfortunate that this was allowed to happen. The thrust of CNJ831's thread bemoans the lack of Camelback-bodied locomotives in today's model railroading. Here was one company--New One Models--who treaded into these waters of Camelback locomotives and, I am to guess, drowned doing so. Had they survived--they would perhaps have eventually converted over to plastic--we would surely be living in a richer environment that we currently do.
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
Why this model is not well known today comes from the fact that it was cast from an extremely inferior batch of zamac and most of the models began crumbling and distorting within just a few years of purchase. It is quite difficult to find a perfectly intact example today, with most of those showing up on eBay currently being in a horribly deteriorated state.
twhiteI believe that Union Pacific also had a few camelbacks......
I've seen a picture of a 4-4-0 UP camelback, but I think it was the only one. It's was a late 19th century loco.
R. T. POTEET CNJ831 raises a good point. Although not my cup of tea there are many, many modelers who model the Anthracite Roads and it does raise a point as to why no manufacturer has brought out a decent Camelback in either HO-Scale . . . . . . . . . . or N-Scale for that matter. Whenever there is a wishlist published here on the forum a Camelback is almost always on the list.
CNJ831 raises a good point. Although not my cup of tea there are many, many modelers who model the Anthracite Roads and it does raise a point as to why no manufacturer has brought out a decent Camelback in either HO-Scale . . . . . . . . . . or N-Scale for that matter. Whenever there is a wishlist published here on the forum a Camelback is almost always on the list.
And there is always someone to say that there is no demand----which always raises the question----what are these threads about then? Does anyone catch the demand?
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
I wouldn't mind seeing more medium-sized Camelbacks available. A Spectrum version of a CNJ 4-6-0 would be a nice addition to Bachmann's roster.
MILW-RODR, here's a story of a famous wreck involving LIRR Camelbacks. The way the engineer and fireman were dispatched inside the lead engine isn't pretty. The Great Pickle Works Wreck
Nelson
Ex-Southern 385 Being Hoisted
MILW-RODR Anyone care to post a pic of one of these camel humps? Or was it camel barns. No no, it was camel tooth. What the heck was it again?
Anyone care to post a pic of one of these camel humps? Or was it camel barns. No no, it was camel tooth. What the heck was it again?
I can assure you that it wasn't a camel toe.
Iv'd the camels too, but was also gonna share the drive cleaver that PC got ahead of me.
I think my preference though is the Goats, the smaler camels that Spectrum put out
blownout cylinder I keep wondering about these camelbacks and why hardly anyone makes them. Especially in the Green age---they'd be rather symbolic of the effort to make (re)use of Culm, or any other mat'l. Much like some steam traction engines that even burned straw ----
I keep wondering about these camelbacks and why hardly anyone makes them. Especially in the Green age---they'd be rather symbolic of the effort to make (re)use of Culm, or any other mat'l. Much like some steam traction engines that even burned straw ----
Actually - they do. The Reading & Northern hauls a LOT of 'waste' out of the anthracite region of Pennsylvania. Anywhere there was a mining operation, there are huge unsightly piles of waste which is at least as much rock as coal, probably more rock. Stuff worthless to market when coal was in demand. The good bits got sorted out, the waste got dumped on piles which just got bigger and bigger. Today, they load up that waste material and clear out those piles and actually burn it in power plants. Many plants to burn the waste have been built in the area, there's years and years worth of energy in those piles. Slowly but surely, the piles are disappearing. But they are HUGE. Literally mountains.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Autobus Prime I'm not sure why the earlier preference was for the camelback...the Reading's "Wooten" (I think it was theirs) had the cab over the (very first?) Wooten firebox. Visibility? Too much length on a loco with no trailing truck?
I'm not sure why the earlier preference was for the camelback...the Reading's "Wooten" (I think it was theirs) had the cab over the (very first?) Wooten firebox. Visibility? Too much length on a loco with no trailing truck?
Clearances. A cab wider than the firebox was too wide for the tighter clearances of the mid-19th century. And perching it up on top of the firebox made it too high for the clearnaces. So they figured out the ideal position - straddling the boiler.
markpierce Camelback locomotives have always appealed to the "child" in me. In fact, my first two locomotives (acquired in the early 1960s) were Camelbacks, a 0-4-0 and a 4-6-0, and my first railroad book was on CNJ locomotives. Too bad the Southern Pacific had only one Camelback locomotive, and SP "normalized" it after a couple of years or so. I'm with you--I've always liked the unique look of them. Mark
Camelback locomotives have always appealed to the "child" in me. In fact, my first two locomotives (acquired in the early 1960s) were Camelbacks, a 0-4-0 and a 4-6-0, and my first railroad book was on CNJ locomotives.
Too bad the Southern Pacific had only one Camelback locomotive, and SP "normalized" it after a couple of years or so.
I'm with you--I've always liked the unique look of them.
Mark
Mark:
I believe that Union Pacific also had a few camelbacks--and since the mfgrs these days are tripping all over themselves (and each other) to produce UP steam, I'm surprised that they haven't gone for these, LOL!
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
markpierce Autobus Prime Yes, they burned "culm", a fine waste coal. A wide grate was needed, to slow down the draft so the light fuel would stay in place. The anthracite roads also burned culm in end-cab locos, such as this one: My understanding is that anthracite was a "premier" coal and definitely not waste since it had fewer impurities and burned hot, and was the preferred coal for heating and metallurgy work. Mark
Autobus Prime Yes, they burned "culm", a fine waste coal. A wide grate was needed, to slow down the draft so the light fuel would stay in place. The anthracite roads also burned culm in end-cab locos, such as this one:
Yes, they burned "culm", a fine waste coal. A wide grate was needed, to slow down the draft so the light fuel would stay in place. The anthracite roads also burned culm in end-cab locos, such as this one:
My understanding is that anthracite was a "premier" coal and definitely not waste since it had fewer impurities and burned hot, and was the preferred coal for heating and metallurgy work.
MP:
It is a good coal, yes. Culm wasn't usable for a lot of purposes because the coal it contained, which was anthracite, was small in size, and mixed with rock (as HM also mentions above). It must have been obnoxious to fire.
AC: Modelers were grumbling about too many K4s back in 1935. There is nothing new under the sun. I guess there are just a lot of SPF's out there...
howmus [Camelbacks] were popular in part because they burned a byp[roduct of mining anthracite that was basically rock with bits of coal in it. The RRs got it for very low prices as the mines were glad to get rid of it.....
h:
http://www.steamlocomotive.com/mikado/cnj926.jpg
You can see the wide "Wooten" firebox. Note how the cab is notched around it.
I would love to see some nice, afordable camelback locos. Being an east coast road, we could justify them very easily.
Silly me, the next new product will have to be a PRR K4 or be 12 coupled.
Sheldon
MILW-RODRDoes the cab 'slice' through the boiler or is it built around it?
The cab sits over the boiler. Nice and warm in the Winter, and hotter than Hades in the Summer! The usual position of the engineer was sitting on the window sill trying to get cooled down. There were many times the the engineer would lose his balance and fall out. (see below)
MILW-RODRThe fireman still stationed at the rear or did the steamer have some kind of automatic feeding set up?
The fireman worked in his usual position. If the engineer fell overboard as mentioned above...... The fireman usually found out when the train roared through the next station without stopping..... Often times he had just about enough time to exit the loco at speed before disaster happened.
A lot more info is available for the "camelback, aka: Old Mother Hubbard" locomotives here: http://www.steamlocomotive.com/camelback/
Ray Seneca Lake, Ontario, and Western R.R. (S.L.O.&W.) in HO
We'll get there sooner or later!
MILW-RODRWhat the mayo !!! For now on when someone says I'm weird looking I'm going to show them that picture and then ask them if they still think I'M the weird looking one. I don't know if I would want to be running that thing. Does the cab 'slice' through the boiler or is it built around it? Where did everyone get put? The fireman still stationed at the rear or did the steamer have some kind of automatic feeding set up?
You've never seen a camelback?
Engineer is in the center cab where he normally would be, and the fireman gets to freeze/get wet out on the back porch. It really wasn't a winning deal for the engineer though. If a main rod bearing failed the rod could "wipe the clock", which had a tendency to ruin the engineers day!
dehusman CNJ831Yet, over the course of the past 50 years of the hobby, reasonably credible examples of these engines have only been offered three times: by AHM around 1960, Mantua in the early 1980's and most recently a rather questionable example from IHC. Actually its a faily good representation of a NYO&W U-1 2-6-0. Unfortunately it has a very squat boiler and the full width fireman's hood which makes it less useful for kitbashing. Basically they found a boiler that was a close match for the SP 2-6-0 underframe they had. The Mantua camelback Pacific was a more fanciful design than the 2-6-0 (no 4-6-2 camelbacks were produced by real railroads). The 2-8-2 is a resonable attempt at a LV engine. That boiler can be shortened to make a reasonable RDG I-8 2-8-0 boiler.
CNJ831Yet, over the course of the past 50 years of the hobby, reasonably credible examples of these engines have only been offered three times: by AHM around 1960, Mantua in the early 1980's and most recently a rather questionable example from IHC.
Actually its a faily good representation of a NYO&W U-1 2-6-0. Unfortunately it has a very squat boiler and the full width fireman's hood which makes it less useful for kitbashing. Basically they found a boiler that was a close match for the SP 2-6-0 underframe they had. The Mantua camelback Pacific was a more fanciful design than the 2-6-0 (no 4-6-2 camelbacks were produced by real railroads). The 2-8-2 is a resonable attempt at a LV engine. That boiler can be shortened to make a reasonable RDG I-8 2-8-0 boiler.
Yes, I'm told that the IHC 2-6-0c was supposed to be based more or less on the NYO&W's class U camelback, or maybe even the older Dickson's Hog. But it really isn't all that close and the model's cab is too small for any human-sized engineer to honestly fit in.
The Mantua camelback pacific, on the other hand, is a fairly accurate model (except for its lack of valve gear) of the LV's unique class K-1 4-6-2c. The model wasn't a fiction. Both the Mantua camelback pacific and mikado were based on the scale prototype drawings appearing in MR back in the 1970's (as were many of the camelbacks done in brass). Likewise, using a small frame add-on to the mikado mechanism, Mantua briefly offered a RDG 2-8-0c that was almost spot-on for one particular RDG class of these engines. Unfortunately, it was part of a very small production run and is rather hard to come by today.
What the mayo !!! For now on when someone says I'm weird looking I'm going to show them that picture and then ask them if they still think I'M the weird looking one. I don't know if I would want to be running that thing. Does the cab 'slice' through the boiler or is it built around it? Where did everyone get put? The fireman still stationed at the rear or did the steamer have some kind of automatic feeding set up?
I would love to have camelback, even though my protoype never had one. Unfortunately in S they have only been available in brass 20 years ago and as a conversion kit for American Flyer.
Enjoy
Paul
MILW-RODRAnyone care to post a pic of one of these camel humps? Or was it camel barns. No no, it was camel tooth. What the heck was it again?
Here you go! (coincidentally, this is also one out of two remaining DL&W engines)
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
CNJ:
Indeed, we might as well say "Anthracite Roads - Why Not?" They all had very interesting end-cab motive power as well, but except for the massive Reading 2-8-0 that just defaulted into model railroading early on because it had room for a big motor, they're so little seen in model form that they almost look like foreign locomotives. A lot of anthracite-road power was built big, using "small" wheel arrangements, so they would be a great way to give a small layout some serious-looking power.
The distinctive look might be the problem. The best hope for a mass-produced model might be to fake it a little. Mantua tried this, and it was hokey, but looking back at it now, there might have been something in it, if they had stuck to prototypes that matched their starting-point models better, and executed the detail more carefully, and not charged ridiculous "collectible" prices.
Model railroading has geographical trends, too. At one point it was all Appalachian coal, coal, coal, and then it went to the Midwest, and now we seem to be drifting east again. Maybe we'll see the D&H become the next "Colorado narrow gauge" of this hobby.
A post on the thread concerning the lack of small steam brought up what I've long considered a rather long standing, puzzling situation.
Now, of course, we all have our favorite locomotives but I think it worthwhile to point out what I regard as an oddity. In recent years we've seen quite a number of locomotive models commercially produced that were fairly rare in the prototype, or were largely limited to use on just one, or maybe a couple of railroads. On the other hand, quite a significant number of well known and modeled eastern railroads employed camelbacks in a large number of sizes and wheel arrangements. Thousands were built and their operating lifetimes spanned the late 19th through the mid 20th centuries, longer than most any other locomotive and with their general appearance altering very little over that entire span.
Yet, over the course of the past 50 years of the hobby, reasonably credible examples of these engines have only been offered three times: by AHM around 1960, Mantua in the early 1980's and most recently a rather questionable example from IHC. Admittedly, camelbacks were a bit unusual looking but so have been more than a few rear-cab engines over the years. Why are there no good models of camelbacks today?
There has to be at least several thousand hobbyists today who model (or wish to model if the equipment were available) steam, or transition era railroads, that employed engines of this type in large numbers. Thus, it has always struct me as particularly odd that this class of motive power has been so neglected by the manufacturers down through the years.
Incidentally, the number and diversity of brass camelbacks imported over the same 50 year interval has been surprisingly large and broad in wheel arrangement (varying from 0-4-0 to 0-8-8-0) as compared to plastic examples. Likewise, these usually do quite well on the re-sale market, indicating that there unquestionably is a continuing demand for these engines among hobbyists.