Note to self: don't get any more Bachmann HO steam if I intend to have it pull more than 4-6 cars.
In an earlier post, I mentioned that the two 2-8-0's and the two Decapods I had both ran poorly at low speed, slowed down badly on grades, and could pull only a few cars up a 2.5% grade. This was with either DC before conversion or DCC. I did all the usual and suggested things to make sure there was no binding, etc. My conclusion was that either the gear ratio needed to be higher, the motor torque higher, or both. I decided maybe this was so because these were small locos with small motors, and not very good mechanical designs. Some people agreed and some not.
Last weekend, I saw a Bachmann Santa Fe 3781 (a large Northern) at a train show and took it home. This thing acts just about the same. It stumbles at low speed. It slows down on 38" curves, which seems unbelievable, since I verified free lateral movement of the driver axles and rods. It doesn't like grades, even running light. And ten free-rolling freight cars bog it down pretty badly, such that the chuff calibration of a sound decoder I put in it is thrown way off from a "light" calibration. Forget about grades with more than six or seven cars. This engine has been carefully cleaned, checked and lubed.
Not that other steam I have (proto 2000, BLI) doesn't suffer some of these problems, but my Bachmanns seem the worst. Too bad, because some, especially the Spectrums, are quite good looking.
Hal
Buying Bachmann loco without trying it - there is fair chance you will not be satisfied, it seams.
Beeing from Europe, I do not have that option, so my two Bachmann locos were a bit of gambles. Shay ended up being great runner, and 2-8-0 (with bad Bachmann decoder) also run good. Maybe I had a bit of luck.
I sold Consolidation later because I have 18' min. radius, and this loco likes straight track and generous curves. But Shay is one of my favourite models!
Spectrum 4-6-0 looks like a nice engine, so maybe one day...
I feel for you! Is the locos you have Spectrum models? I have a few of them myself, including the 2-8-0 and a 4-6-0, and I have no problems with them. They manage to pull 10 NMRA weighted 50´ cars up my layouts 2% grade (including 18" curve). I run my on DCC and have not seen the maentioned bogs or speed reductions. Sorry that I don´t have any solutions for your problems.
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Something is wrong here. We just made several test at our local club and a Bachmann Spectrum 2-8-0 with a Digitrax decoder pulled 17 freight cars up a 2% grade that had a 33" radius curve. The grade was built using W/S ramps so I know it is 2%. At home I have 2.7% grades on one section with a 22" curve - 7 to 8 40' freight cars can be handled.
Steam engines usually do not pull as good as diesel models, but you have a real problem here.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
My bachman spectrum light mountain ran great, pulled great and looked great. I sold it because it had problems with the tender staying on the track in turns. The wires are too stiff and even with a heavily weighted tender it still came off. After much tinkering and adjustment I just gave up and sold it.
alco's forever!!!!! Majoring in HO scale Minorig in O scale:)
People like blaming other people or other things for shortcomings or problems that may or may not be the fault of the object in question. Before this turns into a "Botchmann sucks!" rant, let me ask a few pointed questions:
hdtvnutNote to self: don't get any more Bachmann HO steam if I intend to have it pull more than 4-6 cars. In an earlier post, I mentioned that the two 2-8-0's and the two Decapods I had both ran poorly at low speed, slowed down badly on grades, and could pull only a few cars up a 2.5% grade. This was with either DC before conversion or DCC.
In an earlier post, I mentioned that the two 2-8-0's and the two Decapods I had both ran poorly at low speed, slowed down badly on grades, and could pull only a few cars up a 2.5% grade. This was with either DC before conversion or DCC.
2.5% grade? Four to six cars? Hmm.....
What do you think REAL steam engines of this size could haul up a 2.5% grade? Short answer: about 4 to 6 cars.
It's not ONLY about the grade either. How heavy are your cars? Is your grade constant? Are there curves on the grade? Do you have free-rolling metal wheelsets on the cars? How's your power pickup at this point of the layout? If there are curves, are they superelevated? Are you POSITIVE that all of your track is gauged properly? There are MANY variables here that need to be addressed, not just "Bachmann sucks".
On my last layout my ruling grade was 2.25%, up a curving mainline. I load tested all of my engine types (by manufacturer AND engine model type) to come up with a "tonnage rating" table for my engines, so yardmasters would know how many cars to add to a train heading uphill. In general, 4-6 cars sounds about right for the engines and grade in question, since my Bachmann Spectrum 2-8-0s were able to haul 8-10 cars up my grade. Virtually every other engine I had would outperform them, but not by much. That's not surprising, considering the 2-8-0s were the smallest mainline engines I was running (everything else were various 2-8-2s and 2-8-4s).
I did all the usual and suggested things to make sure there was no binding, etc. My conclusion was that either the gear ratio needed to be higher, the motor torque higher, or both. I decided maybe this was so because these were small locos with small motors, and not very good mechanical designs. Some people agreed and some not.
In general, Bachmann engines are engineered just fine. Their only real problem is that they're light. They're FAR too light to be "quality performers", at least as compared to diesel models and antique all-metal steam. Don't blame Bachmann for this problem: blame President Nixon and the EPA (eg: "lead is evil, and must not be included in anything that a child may lick or chew on."). This is a problem with ALL plastic steam, whether or not it's engineered well.
Now you're talking about a completely different Bachmann entity. Spectrum engines were designed from the ground up to be fairly good engines. The Bachmann 4-8-4 isn't a Spectrum engine. You're comparing apples with ducks here. And there are two different versions of the Bachmann 4-8-4s: older production engines in white cardboard boxes, and newly reworked examples in plastic cases. You didn't identify which version you bought.
And here's the key: ALL of your plastic steam has these problems to some degree. BLI has "corrected" some of plastic's shortcomings by adding traction tires, which many modelers despise. Bachmann has only added traction tires to a select few of their engines (especially their tiny "modern" 4-4-0). Proto engines in general are horrible pullers (worse than BLI) because Life Like refused to add traction tires. That changed under Walthers ownership, but they're still nowhere near heavy haulers. The only "good pullers" I have are Mantua engines and older brass. Both types of engines blew away my tonnage rating tables: I stopped testing a remotored Mantua 2-8-2 when it hit 50 cars up my old grades).
Honestly, and you may not like hearing this, but I think the problem is your own expectations of what the engines are supposed to be hauling. Our hobby is chock full O' compromises, mostly stemming from selective compression. We compress time, distance, scenes, switches, and curves, yet some people don't understand that train length has to be compressed in the same way as well. Six cars up a 2.5% grade for a midsized 2-8-0 is completely and wholly prototypical. Perhaps you're setting your standard too unrealistically high for the engines you have on hand? Alternatively, maybe you're buying the wrong models, and should be running Mantua steam models, which are well known for pulling essentially anything you throw their way.
Ray Breyer
Modeling the NKP's Peoria Division, circa 1943
It's funny how people's experience can vary.
My Bachmann Spectrum 2-8-0s, one with a Tsunami, one with the stock decoder, both haul 8-10 cars up the 4% curved (22r) grade on my test layout without a big hassle.
My Spectrum 4-4-0 American is limited to 4 cars up the same grade, and slips horribly towards the top.
I agree, that more weight would be useful on these models, but I think for what they are, they're fine models. More than 10 cars, and you get to doublehead! How awsome is that!
I'm trying to model 1956, not live in it.
I agree very much with Ray, just above me, but I do think I should support the OP in at least one respect...my one recently purchased Spectrum engine is also a poor performer at low speed.
I had heard so many good things about the Spectrum line that I didn't question myself, but I sure do now. The item is a J Class 4-8-4 that exhibits what I am dismayed to read so many other posters complain about here and on three other forums I visit regularly. Everyone seems to be lamenting new/recent purchases of Bachmann steamers that lurch badly at low speeds.
I knew enough to run it for a while, forwards and backwards. No good. Ran it lots more.....no good. Sent it back to my decoder installer repair guy, someone who has tinkered with steamers most of his 62 years...no good. I felt worse when he said he finally gave up on a Spectrum Consolidation 2-8-0 and sold it on ebay. Nothing he could do or think of seemed to work.
So, let's not be too quick to rebuff the OP...he has some legitimate beefs. I do think he needs to be reminded or educated about real world limitations in engineering when it comes to scale models and what John Armstrong would term "realistic operation." Supposing that the figure of 2.5% is a legitimate descriptor of the grade, it is a substantial grade. A light engine like a Consolidation would be lucky to pull four or five fully loaded boxcars up such a grade. Darned lucky.
-Crandell
hdtvnut It slows down on 38" curves, which seems unbelievable, since I verified free lateral movement of the driver axles and rods.
In addition to the comments of others, I have to queation the OP about the curves. Is that 38" radius? or is it possibly 18" radius, measured outside to outside of the entire circle (diameter)?
If it is actually 18' radius, no wonder that giant slows down on the curves, its lucky to go around them at all.
Like others have said, 2.5% grade, that's pretty steep.
I do not have experiance with the loco in question, but like others who have responded I have a number of Bachmann Spectrum locos and all are good runners and range from good to exceptional in the pulling power department.
I have grades slightly under 2% and my USRA 4-8-2 Heavies easily pull 15-18 cars up them. My 2-8-0's pull 10-12 up them, and two 2-8-0's easily pull 40 cars on level track.
Seems there is more to this story then we are getting.
I obvoiusly don't know the OP, so this is not necessarily directed at him, but it seems Bachmann often gets a bad rap from the "plug and play" crowd. Yes, they have been known to make a dud now and then (which they cheerfully replace without question) and sometimes they require a little adjustment here and there for best performance, but overall, it is hard to beat their combination of price, selection, appearance and quality in my opinion.
I have locos from those more "expensive" brands, and most of them have needed the same kinds of ajustments, tweaks, modifications to make them run to my standards.
I add weight to all my Bachmann tenders, I carefully arrange the loco/tender wiring, I modify the drawbars on some for better clearance for the wires, I add a little weight to the locos where I can, and I could not be happier with the performance results and with the cost of my steam fleet, which is mostly Bachmann Spectrum.
Sheldon
selector I agree very much with Ray, just above me, but I do think I should support the OP in at least one respect...my one recently purchased Spectrum engine is also a poor performer at low speed. I had heard so many good things about the Spectrum line that I didn't question myself, but I sure do now. The item is a J Class 4-8-4 that exhibits what I am dismayed to read so many other posters complain about here and on three other forums I visit regularly. Everyone seems to be lamenting new/recent purchases of Bachmann steamers that lurch badly at low speeds. I knew enough to run it for a while, forwards and backwards. No good. Ran it lots more.....no good. Sent it back to my decoder installer repair guy, someone who has tinkered with steamers most of his 62 years...no good. I felt worse when he said he finally gave up on a Spectrum Consolidation 2-8-0 and sold it on ebay. Nothing he could do or think of seemed to work.
Crandell,
You said the magic words, "recent" and "DCC". your problem is most likely not the loco itself, but the inexpensive Bachmann decoders. As you may recall, I don't use DCC. The Spectrum locos I have bought with DCC ran very poorly on their dual mode decoders. Decoders removed, jumpers installed the locos run great on my Aristo Craft wireless throttles.
Everyone I know with Bachmann locos and DCC says the best performance is gotten by removing the Bachmann decoder AND circuit board and hard wiring a quality decoder.
While the spectrum locos do not perfrom like a Proto2000 2-8-8-2 (one of the best running locos I have ever seen in 40 years of modeling) they do run well and can be made to run very well in most cases.
As for your friend and his 2-8-0, should have just sent it back and got his free replacement. Out of the twenty plus spectrum locos I own, I have sent three back because they ran poorly right out of the box. No question, no problem a new one showed up in a few weeks.
The Bachmann Spectrum "Heavy" mountain is a decent puller. It can pull 20-30 40' cars with a little bit of effort. It's the only bachmann that I have that has any muscle.
I would definitely say that something's wrong, here. I've got 3 Spectrum locos, a 2-8-0, a 2-6-6-2 and a heavy 4-8-2 and all three are excellent performers throughout the speed range, and very good haulers. I'm strictly DC, so I don't have any experience with the Bachmann decoders, and I can't comment on that.
But I have 34" minimum radius and grades of up to 2.4% and I've never had a problem with the Spectrums not hauling their fair share. In fact, my 2-6-6-2 is a much better hauler than my Proto 2-8-8-2, which cost me a lot more money.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
twhite But I have 34" minimum radius and grades of up to 2.4% and I've never had a problem with the Spectrums not hauling their fair share. In fact, my 2-6-6-2 is a much better hauler than my Proto 2-8-8-2, which cost me a lot more money.
Tom, I double head my Specrum 2-6-6-2's with my Proto 2-8-8-2's, they run well together and the combined smoothness and pulling power is great.
Sheldon, thanks for your comment. This was a DC engine that I purchased when Klein's was blowing them out before Christmas. I had the same gentleman install a heavy Tsunami. I am happy with his work, and the engine "sounds" terrific. But neither of us could get the chuff sorted out (decoder not being able to read a wonky motor's bemf?) or the lurching at speeds under 20 scale mph. He finally made a reed switch and cam from handy materials and it now sounds very good...and still lurches.
A number of the guys in our local group are into DCC and sound, even though I'm not. A number of them have tried installing sound decoders (mostly Tsunami's) in any number of older or non DCC locos. I have not seen one yet where the bemf/chuff rate thing worked completely, regardless of loco brand (bowser/IHC/Bachmann/etc). A cam is the only answer in my opinion. Heck, that view goes all the way back to the Modeltronics days.
Gee, I'm glad I don't like onboard sound, what a headache.
As for the lurching, again, I would have sent it back if it didn't run perfect out of the box. This is a rule all should follow with Bachmann and BLI based on my experiances and those of others I know.
I have the bachmann spectrum consolidation, beautiful southern green one, I am thrilled with it, although I do admit that it runs badly at slow speeds, and isn't a good puller up grades. Still, its a great engine for the money. Superior detail.
Now my brother also bought the spectrum k4 pacific, absolutely superb engine, runs great with DCC, excellent puller, handles grades well, terrific at slow speeds. This engine rivals many BLI products in my opinion, although it is a little light. I would love to get my hands on the BLI platinum series version, but can't find them anywhere.
The only problem I have with bachmann spectrum engines is the headlight. Its incredibly small and dim, you compare it to the MTH version, and you wonder why is it so hard to get a bright LED light in there?
I believe, unless their listing is faulty, that trainworld still has some BLI Platinum K4's. Internethobbies.com might still have one.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL twhite But I have 34" minimum radius and grades of up to 2.4% and I've never had a problem with the Spectrums not hauling their fair share. In fact, my 2-6-6-2 is a much better hauler than my Proto 2-8-8-2, which cost me a lot more money. Tom, I double head my Specrum 2-6-6-2's with my Proto 2-8-8-2's, they run well together and the combined smoothness and pulling power is great. Sheldon
Sheldon:
That's exactly what I do--doublehead them. Otherwise, I wouldn't have much of an excuse to keep the Proto on my power roster. But boy, howdy, does that little 2-6-6-2 get out and HAUL!
Cal-Arabian Knight Hmm. Reading all this about folks with 36" minimum and 34" minimum radius layouts makes me suspect there be those who need to learn the difference between radius and diameter. Either that or they have some really big layout spaces. A 36" minimun radius layout would require 6 feet across JUST for a simple circle disregarding any straight runs one might want to incorporate. Then again different mileage for different folks I suppose?
Hmm. Reading all this about folks with 36" minimum and 34" minimum radius layouts makes me suspect there be those who need to learn the difference between radius and diameter. Either that or they have some really big layout spaces. A 36" minimun radius layout would require 6 feet across JUST for a simple circle disregarding any straight runs one might want to incorporate. Then again different mileage for different folks I suppose?
Yup, that's what I've got, about 6' across. It's a garage layout. Good sized. 24'x24'. 34" minimum, 36" maximum. It's built for 2-10-2's and articulateds.
Cal-Arabian Knight ""Yup, that's what I've got, about 6' across. It's a garage layout. Good sized. 24'x24'. 34" minimum, 36" maximum. It's built for 2-10-2's and articulateds."" Note my envy. :)
""Yup, that's what I've got, about 6' across. It's a garage layout. Good sized. 24'x24'. 34" minimum, 36" maximum. It's built for 2-10-2's and articulateds.""
Note my envy. :)
Cal--
Don't get TOO envious, it's in a relatively uninsulated garage and right smack in the middle of California's "Pollen Belt." It's a MONSTER to keep clean, LOL!
Hoople The Bachmann Spectrum "Heavy" mountain is a decent puller. It can pull 20-30 40' cars with a little bit of effort. It's the only bachmann that I have that has any muscle.
It's also the only Spectrum engine with a metal boiler rather than a plastic one. Mine is a smooth powerful engine too.
I've had one or two Spectrum engines that had some problems but overall they're very good. My factory-Tsunami 2-10-0 can pull about 25 cars or so at a slow speed on level track, and my 2-6-6-2 can do over 30. Last night I had my 2-6-6-2 (TCS decoder and MRC "Sounder") with a short train rolling along nicely at a steady scale 15 MPH with no problems.
p.s. Geez I laugh everytime I see that "Dune cat".
Cal, I know lots of folks with layouts that fill 800, 1200 or even 1500 sq ft, have 36" minimum radius curves and contain hundreds or even thousands of feet of track. Not really that uncommon these days.
My layout, still under construction, is in a dedicated 22' x 40' room above my garage/workshop. Its about 800 sq ft, heated, cooled. The layout uses 36" minimum mainline radius and many curves are bigger. The mainline when completed will be about eight scale miles of double track on two decks. I have friends with equal/bigger layouts. While it is big, the track plan is not all that complex. Size and complexity are not automaticly linked to each other.
The idea is to be able to run realisticly long trains, have them make a long enough run to be interesting and have them look good on the curves.
Same for me, although my total footprint is in one corner of my basement measuring 9' X 14', and it has a duck-under to a central operating pit. I purposefully chose this pain in the rump (and back, and often head) so that I could build a large folded loop with 30" radius and up. My two large end-curves are in the 44" range.
Don't know I'll ever to a duck-under again. Lift-out more likely.
Hi!
I also have the Spectrum 2-8-0, 2-10-0, and 4-8-2, and find them to be very satisfactory and an excellent buy for the money. While you could have a "lemon", it is highly unlikely that all of yours are faulty.
The locos could have picked up excessive dirt, or have a poor connectivity problem or just need a major "lube and tune" as they might have been sitting around for some time. I would put them on the test bed and go over them thoroughly before I do anything rash.
Hey, for what its worth,
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
I'll agree that the standard Daylight is a tad underpowered. But my Spectrums are great. The Shay will haul almost anything. I;ve yet to find a limit on it, but I haven't pushed it too hard, and the GW 4-8-2 is begging for me to lengthen the train, when I get her back for the whole miswired tender issues, I probably will.
-Morgan
Back in 1959 I bought a used 1953 Dodge Coronet; in 1978 at the encouragement of "friends"--who needs enemies?--I bought a new 1978 Dodge Aspen. Both were pieces of junk. I wrote old Lee I. a letter complaining about the poor quality of that '78 Aspen. Three or four years later while it was still in the process of coming unglued at the seams he had the effrontery to send me a letter inviting me to try one of the "new Dodges"; HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! I bought another Toyota which is where I have stayed since!
The next time you are in the market for new motive power I would suggest that you give Bachmann the bum's rush!
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
I have a number of Spectrum engines and overall I am quite happy with the quality of these engines and their running characteristics. I have had a couple of duds, but they were replaced quickly by Bachmann. They are excellent engines and their street prices are moderate.
I also have a couple of Proto engines that I wish I could say the same about, they were first run, fairly expensive and can hardly pull their own weight. I understand that the later runs were improved, they added traction tires and updated the electrical. After wasting my money on the first batch I am not inclinded to buy any more steam Proto models, ever. The Proto engines street prices are quite expensive and I do not find their quality any higher than the Spectrum engines..
I park the Proto steam engines with my Athearn Genesis 2-8-2 and 4-6-2 in the roundhouse. They look great there.
Hal,You didn't mention if your cars is weigh to RP20.1 or not..If they are then your "Wimpy Bachmann Steam" is doing far better then you think..You see those 10 RP20.1 weighted cars equals around 14 stock weight cars even if they are free rolling..
As Ray mention your 2.5% grade doesn't help either...
Since there is no rules saying a layout must have grades here is my simple rule..Anything steeper then 1.5% is a no go for grades and to date my few past loop layouts was void of grades.I simply refuse to have grades steeper then 1.5%..Even on the prototype a 1.5% grade pushers may be needed.
Also even real locomotives have tonnage ratings base on ruling grade and curvature of the track.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
BRAKIEEven on the prototype a 1.5% grade pushers may be needed.
The CN mainline between Dundas and Woodstock ON had a 'ruling grade' of just 1.5% and used helpers on the passenger heavyweights as far as Woodstock.
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
Thanks for comments pro and con.
I'm not surprised at the variety of experiences people have had with Bachmanns and engines generally. Mine just havn't been that good with Bachmann.
A couple of things: 1. yes, I meant 38" RADIUS (this engine had to be sick).
2. I have a number of different type engines, so can make plenty of comparisons.
3. my medium steam engines, if they can exert 2.5 oz or more drawbar pull, can pull seven to eight Branchline Blueprint Pullmans with a standard weight of 6.5 oz up my 2.5% grades. Note that these cars have very good truck bearings, and will coast on the slightest grade. The same engines would only pull four Walthers heavyweights (same weight) up those grades until I changed the trucks on them to Branchline. I find truck bearings to be extremely important, and try to tune them so that when I spin a wheel, it keeps going for 8-10 seconds.
4. I don't expect a small Bachmann to pull more than possibly seven to nine well-tuned 40-ft freight cars up the grades. My other small engines seem able to do this. The 3781 was hardput to do it.
5. I weight my cars to between 90 and 100% of NMRA recommendation.
I have a scale good for measuring drawbar pull, and have measured a number of engines with readings taken just before/at the slip point on level, clean track. Here's a few:
MTH SP 4449 4-8-4 3.5 oz Traction tire
BLI C&O 3007 2-10-4 3.8
BLI N&W 1217 2-6-6-4 4.4
BLI UP 5509 2-10-2 3.5
RIV C&O 2-6-6-6 5.0 Traction tire
P2K NP 740 2-8-4 3.0
P2K Erie 127 0-8-0 3.2 Traction tire
Bach C&O 1524 2-6-6-2 2.5
Bach Frisco 1632 2-10-0 1.5
Bach South 722 2-8-0 1.5
Bach PRR 5448 4-6-2 1.7
The Bachmanns are pretty light, true, but they didn't seem to slip until near the stall point. This suggests to me that their motors are not powerful enough to be able to benefit from traction tires. Looks like the P2K 0-8-0 might have doubled its pull with one.
The 3781 in my original message was the early version. I couldn't measure the drawbar pull because I had already shipped it out to Bachmann, but, subjectively, it was poor. It also was pretty noisy, so I decided to order a new drivetrain. They said the parts were unavailable, but I could trade it in for a new version for $40. The tech says it now has a Spectrum motor, so seemed like the best idea.