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What are some things that are waaay off

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Posted by CNJ831 on Friday, April 10, 2009 7:45 AM

tomikawaTT

Vertical rock faces next to the track with not a sign of a borehole...

Let me add an associated situation to this complaint. How about essentially vertical, heavily wooded, hillsides immediately adjacent to the tracks. While I fully appreciate that the depth of our layouts is far from infinite, it shouldn't result in one modeling in a manner that absolutely flies in the face of real-world laws of nature.

There is a physical parameter called "the angle of repose" that limits just how steep a hillside can be and still retain its ground surface (dirt). In most cases, this is less than 45 degrees, even with trees and shrubs helping to hold the soil in place. Vertical foilage walls, except maybe in the case of vines, just doesn't look realistic. It can look pretty bad when viewed straight on but becomes totally unblievable when seen from an acute angle.

CNJ831   

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Posted by blownout cylinder on Friday, April 10, 2009 8:07 AM

CNJ831
There is a physical parameter called "the angle of repose" that limits just how steep a hillside can be and still retain its ground surface (dirt). In most cases, this is less than 45 degrees, even with trees and shrubs helping to hold the soil in place. Vertical foilage walls, except maybe in the case of vines, just doesn't look realistic. It can look pretty bad when viewed straight on but becomes totally unblievable when seen from an acute angle.

 

The only way that a cliff face works is if the region being modelled is precisely having just such a situation---ie--there are many areas along the Niagara Escarpment where rock wall are darn near vertical and still have vegetation BUT we are NOT talking great heaping hords of the stuff! BTW--the areas of vegetation do tend to sit on 40 degree slopes intermingled with verticals--so even then--if you are going to model verticals try to consider the less than vertical as part of the overall--

 If one wants to look for themselves they can always check out any good aerial mapping sites before trying to model such rockwalls to see how it really looks. Also---attached to this---talus at bottom of steep/not so steep faces--I've come across a few people who completely leave these things out---forgetting that, yes, mountains do, at times, have remnants of erosion and slides etc around---

Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry

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Posted by MisterBeasley on Friday, April 10, 2009 8:33 AM

I don't like seeing driverless cars and trucks out on the highway, particularly convertibles.

And I really hate oversized Hot Wheels race cars, like 1:64 cars on an HO layout.  C'mon, there really are a lot of appropriate scale models out there.  Find them, and give the Hot Wheels to some kid.  Even Jeff Gordon doesn't drive a 30-foot-long Chevy Malibu with NASCAR logos to the super market, does he?  (Gee, I dunno, really.  I don't follow car racing at all, but my guess is, he doesn't.)

It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse. 

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Posted by hawghead1 on Friday, April 10, 2009 8:43 AM

I guess my biggest complaint (1.) would be running through a scene more than once. If you have to do it there's nothing for it but to do it. (2.) Big locomotives on small layouts with tight curves.

Each of us should model in the best possible way we each know how to. We should learn from others and not be critical of others. What I don't like doesn't mean I can't tolerate it on someones layout but that maybe I would try in every way possible to "not do it" on my own layout. We need to remember to encourage others and not hinder their enjoyment of the hobby.

This is supposed to be a hobby, a re creation of a scene in our minds eye and it's supposed to be enjoyable to each of us in his or her own way and remember, none of us see eye to eye on any give subject so lets be tolerable of others layouts that have things we wouldn't have on our own. They are doing the best they know how and maybe enjoying the hobby more than we are?

The way I see trees, anything close is good enough. Well there are some exceptions.................... Cedums aren't one of them. Done right with several clumps added to make one tree turn out very nicely and only "represent" a tree. :-) We only have just so much space to "represent" a scene. Each see it (the space) differently.

Bob

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Posted by DigitalGriffin on Friday, April 10, 2009 8:54 AM

Coke plants without coal lorries or extractors.  How exactly do you expect the coal to get in?  And the Coke to get out?

Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions

Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!

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Posted by blownout cylinder on Friday, April 10, 2009 8:56 AM

CNJ831
I can't speak to westcoast tree species but I can't ever recall seeing any common North American tree that closely resembles Sedum. If you are familiar with any, please post an image.

 

I'm wondering whether someone isn't confusing us by using Sedum to represent a 'plain' or, 'Plane', tree? They seem to be flattened at their tops----

Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry

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Posted by wjstix on Friday, April 10, 2009 9:59 AM

I'd echo what several people have said about too many automobiles, especially on steam era layouts. My Dad was born in 1918, when I'd put in a layout tour video (like the "Great Model Railroad" series) that was a layout set before WW2 he'd inevitably point out that the layout had too many autos. One of the reasons you had streetcars back then is because people used them !!

BTW in my Dad's case, he learned to drive before his Dad did. Grandpa was a milkman and didn't learn to drive until his employer (Franklin Co-op Creamery in Minneapolis MN) changed from horse-drawn wagons to trucks in the forties. Otherwise, Grandpa walked or took the streetcar to work or wherever he was going.

Stix
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Posted by BRAKIE on Friday, April 10, 2009 10:26 AM

collectthem
 What are some things done in modeling in scenery that you would never see in real World? I see some layouts and it’s amazing but can’t imagine in real World situations. For example, a clump of bushes that looks neat on a layout but in real life, it just would not happen.

A water fall that has a small pond with no where for the water to go other then that tiny pond...

Larry

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Posted by PASMITH on Friday, April 10, 2009 10:34 AM
Model scenery with photographic backdrops. (IMO, it s more realistic to match your skills from foreground to background regardless of your skill level) Peter Smith, Memphis
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Posted by PASMITH on Friday, April 10, 2009 10:46 AM
galaxy

Some guys will make Messy train yards and engine service facilities on model railroads.

In real life, due to  hazzards and safety concerns they are not messy, but neatly organized.

Yes but I just love to model bad housekeeping especially in the days before OSHA. Peter Smith, Memphis
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Posted by blownout cylinder on Friday, April 10, 2009 10:50 AM

PASMITH
Model scenery with photographic backdrops. (IMO, it s more realistic to match your skills from foreground to background regardless of your skill level) Peter Smith, Memphis

 

Well, I suppose--ConfusedWhistling--

-but what happens when you have some poor guffer who has a superrealistic talent when it comes to modelling but apparently is a 3 year old when it comes to painting backdrop?MischiefWhistling---I'd rather do photographic backdrop than see what appears to be a 3 year old's painting of a backdrop-Whistling---I think the transition would be a bit---um---abruptSigh

Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry

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Posted by wm3798 on Friday, April 10, 2009 10:55 AM

 Topic diversion Warning:

Sedum straight from the stem is indeed too flat to make a realistic tree.  However, if you take a moment to break apart the stems then glue them together to create a multi-tiered crown, it works quite well...

For me the scenery is there as more of a stage set.  There's a lot missing from my scenes.  What drives me wild is roads, tracks and other major scenic elements that run parallel to the table edge.  I don't know why, it just bugs me.

Another thing is impossible engineering feats like retaining walls that are 100' vertical drops, or two tunnel bores that are right on top of one another in an obvious attempt to hide a loop or something.  Sometimes you can't avoid stuff like that, but there are better ways of disguising them...

Lee

Route of the Alpha Jets  www.wmrywesternlines.net

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Posted by IVRW on Friday, April 10, 2009 11:00 AM
The worlds only weed farm?

~G4

19 Years old, modeling the Cowlitz, Chehalis, and Cascade Railroad of Western Washington in 1927 in 6X6 feet.

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Posted by blownout cylinder on Friday, April 10, 2009 11:00 AM

Lee-I would say the top photo is what a 'Plane' tree --in southern Europe--would look more like. We, however, need to do them closer to bottom------Smile,Wink, & Grin

Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry

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Posted by PASMITH on Friday, April 10, 2009 11:13 AM
blownout cylinder

PASMITH
Model scenery with photographic backdrops. (IMO, it s more realistic to match your skills from foreground to background regardless of your skill level) Peter Smith, Memphis

 

Well, I suppose--ConfusedWhistling--

-but what happens when you have some poor guffer who has a superrealistic talent when it comes to modelling but apparently is a 3 year old when it comes to painting backdrop?MischiefWhistling---I'd rather do photographic backdrop than see what appears to be a 3 year old's painting of a backdrop-Whistling---I think the transition would be a bit---um---abruptSigh

- iis I agree with your example. That would be an abrupt transition. But, it is hard for me to imagine a person who has super-realistic talent and is a 3 year old when it comes to painting a backdrop. Peter Smith, Memphis
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Posted by blownout cylinder on Friday, April 10, 2009 11:31 AM

PASMITH
iis I agree with your example. That would be an abrupt transition. But, it is hard for me to imagine a person who has super-realistic talent and is a 3 year old when it comes to painting a backdrop. Peter Smith, Memphis

 

It is odd but in this fellows case I've seen---it definitely makes for a chin stroking---hmmmnWhistlingSigh

Then again, is it possible he could be doing a abstractionist's poke at us?Mischief

Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry

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Posted by HarryHotspur on Friday, April 10, 2009 1:30 PM

 I've seen it in many, many instances. Layouts are built by people accustomed to and skilled at working in three dimensions. Painting a backdrop is two dimensional.  Those are two entirely different skill sets.

If one doesn't like photo backdrops, a clear blue sky can always be used - it never detracts.

- Harry

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Posted by PASMITH on Friday, April 10, 2009 1:48 PM
One of the greatest advantages of mountain scenery is that it can hide track in tunnels and behind mountain cliff view blocks. It is very hard to do this when one is modeling the midwest corn belt. Some of the more famous model railroaders including John Allen, Malcolm Furlow and most of the 3 foot Colorado narrow gaugers really knew how to use their mountainous terrains to create spectacular scenes and great track work designs. When I first started to model the Klamath Falls branch of the SP in the area around 14,000 ft. Mt. Shasta, I thought I could do it in a small space with a lot of view blocks until I actually visited the area and realized that the surrounding area was basically a 4,000 ft high planes desert with no need for tunnels and the 45 degree rule really became a challenge. Peter Smith, Memphis
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Posted by selector on Friday, April 10, 2009 1:55 PM

PASMITH
blownout cylinder

PASMITH
Model scenery with photographic backdrops. (IMO, it s more realistic to match your skills from foreground to background regardless of your skill level) Peter Smith, Memphis

 

Well, I suppose--ConfusedWhistling--

-but what happens when you have some poor guffer who has a superrealistic talent when it comes to modelling but apparently is a 3 year old when it comes to painting backdrop?MischiefWhistling---I'd rather do photographic backdrop than see what appears to be a 3 year old's painting of a backdrop-Whistling---I think the transition would be a bit---um---abruptSigh

- iis I agree with your example. That would be an abrupt transition. But, it is hard for me to imagine a person who has super-realistic talent and is a 3 year old when it comes to painting a backdrop. Peter Smith, Memphis

...or a three year old modeller with respect to his/her talent using a photographic backdrop scene...that does not compute, either.

Having said that, I must say some photographic backdrops work very well when they are placed properly, and matched in terms of angle of view, with the "scenery" in front of them.  Quite often, the two don't match.  The scenery falls toward the backdrop, but the backdrop shows mostly sky...where it couldn't possibly be!

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Posted by PASMITH on Friday, April 10, 2009 2:12 PM
selector
Having said that, I must say some photographic backdrops work very well when they are placed properly, and matched in terms of angle of view, with the "scenery" in front of them.  Quite often, the two don't match.  The scenery falls toward the backdrop, but the backdrop shows mostly sky...where it couldn't possibly be!
A master at coordinating a photographic backdrop with his three dimensional modeling was Cliff Powers on his Magnolia Line. As noted in this post, this takes a lot of skill to make it work right. ( Cliff has been previously feature in MR and Great Model Railroads.) http://magnoliaroute.com/magnolia%20route.htm Peter Smith, Memphis
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Posted by tatans on Friday, April 10, 2009 3:48 PM

wm3798-- Great idea for sedum and/or shorten them. The 100' walls are not too nifty as are the 3 layered tracks on rock walls, I think they refer to them as wedding cake scenes. Along with fat gorilla-like figures in shiny clothing ½ way up the side of a locomotive,referred to as gumby figures.

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Posted by blownout cylinder on Friday, April 10, 2009 4:40 PM

tatans

wm3798-- Great idea for sedum and/or shorten them. The 100' walls are not too nifty as are the 3 layered tracks on rock walls, I think they refer to them as wedding cake scenes. Along with fat gorilla-like figures in shiny clothing ½ way up the side of a locomotive,referred to as gumby figures.

I'd agree there on all points

1) Shorten them and bunch them as per the second picture

2) The CN doubletrack west of TO comes up the Niagara Escarpment by Dundas ON--I'm not sure of the incline but it is something---You can hear everything just hammering away going up that incline I'll say--

3) Or anywhere---Spandex wearers---

Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry

I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...

http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/

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Posted by brank on Friday, April 10, 2009 6:30 PM

I second the shiny "spandex clothing".....and just people in general....they never look real for some strange reason..

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Posted by ccaranna on Friday, April 10, 2009 6:39 PM

Note to self:

Never open my model railroad to other model railroaders.

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Posted by selector on Friday, April 10, 2009 7:38 PM

ccaranna

Note to self:

Never open my model railroad to other model railroaders.

Well, that's one way to never get any objective eyes on one's work and assumptions.  Personally, as much as it is sometimes delivered unartfully, criticism given discretely can help a person to see something about their opus that just doesn't seem to work, or to fit.  Not long ago, Driline mentioned in passing that my tall grass needed some work, and on another forum a person pointed out that my white utility pole insulators never existed.  Both were good information to have since it helped me to generate a better product.  I actually sprayed some figurines with Dull Coat around Christmas time because I knew continuing to image them as shiny ceramic dolls wasn't doing the rest of my work justice.  I still have to fix the grass, and my poles are now a sort of jade green.

Almost no one posting here has perfect images.  There are flaws in all that I see, and others surely see some that I don't.  But, we still have fun and compliment and encourage one another with what we get right.

This thread is a gentle reality check, to me....

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Posted by blownout cylinder on Friday, April 10, 2009 8:01 PM

selector
I actually sprayed some figurines with Dull Coat around Christmas time because I knew continuing to image them as shiny ceramic dolls wasn't doing the rest of my work justice.  I still have to fix the grass, and my poles are now a sort of jade green.

 

My N scale people are now bought unpainted and I just paint them with flat acrylic craft paints---don't have dulcoat issues---Whistling---and my insulators are the usual black/dk brown(which I have somewhere in the basement---Smile,Wink, & Grin

Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry

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Posted by markpierce on Friday, April 10, 2009 8:26 PM

cbq9911a

5. The railroad goes out of a tunnel and onto a bridge.

 

That's right.  You'll won't ever see a prototype railroad that goes directly from a tunnel and then onto a bridge, and not along the side of a cliff either.

Mark

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Posted by howmus on Friday, April 10, 2009 8:32 PM

selector
and on another forum a person pointed out that my white utility pole insulators never existed. 

 

Oh really?  Better check that out: http://www.insulators.info/porcelain/color.htm Down near the bottom of the page.

While they were not common in many parts, they most certainly did exist.  We had a couple hanging around on the farm that I grew up on.  They were broken ones that had been removed from the line poles on our road by the farm.  We used them as paper weights in the milk house. Line pole insulators came in a huge amount of different colors.  The guy who told you that isn't the guy over across the street who knows everything about everything but doesn't think that facts need to be involved is it???? WhistlingLaugh 

Ray Seneca Lake, Ontario, and Western R.R. (S.L.O.&W.) in HO

We'll get there sooner or later! 

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Posted by MisterBeasley on Friday, April 10, 2009 8:36 PM

Sometimes, response time of the forum's servers is waaay off.  Most of the time, it's OK, though.

Glad to see you're still with us, Mark.

It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse. 

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Posted by markpierce on Friday, April 10, 2009 8:37 PM

OK, OK.  It is just a model.  I thought my rock tinting and tree/brush making turned out well.  I lost count on how many Preiser figures I used.

Mark

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