Sir Madog "De gustibus non est..."
"De gustibus non est..."
Great language which I have recently taken up, good to see another latin enthusiast on here.
Two things that don't seem to 'scale down' --for me, at least-- in HO scale are smoke and water. It seems the larger the scale, the better chances for realistic smoke. When I had my G-guage garden railroad some years back, my locomotives smoked rather nicely, but I've never seen it 'scaled down' that successfully in HO scale. As I said, O guage and larger are an entirely different matter.
Of course, one of the railroads that I model--Southern Pacific--had an absolute THING about running as clean a stack as possible most of the time, so the lack of smoke doesn't bother me. The other railroad I model--Rio Grande--had some pretty smoky locomotives, especially their big L-131 2-8-8-2's, which according to engineers would blow huge plumes of it out of the stack at random and unpredictable intervals. For that, I just let my imagination take over.
But most of the HO 'smoking' locos I've seen look like someone stuck a lit cigarette down the stack.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
rjake4454,
If You are tempted, You probably wouldn't regret making the change. I was an HO'er for 30-35 years, and if someone had told me that I would end up this involved in 3 Rail back in 2004, I would have Laughed at them, and asked them what kind of substance is affecting your thinking. I am a member of a Large HO(contradiction in terms?) club, here in Portland, OR(the Columbia Gorge Model Railroad Club, CGL reporting marks) I have found myself spending less and less time at the club, I can't even tell you when, or which HO locomotive, I bought last.
Then after years of running HO (with a couple years of Large scale thrown in too) under the Christmas Tree, I got tired of picking the pet hair out of the running gear of my HO steamers, particularly, my Lionel HO Challengers. So, November of 2005 I ran down to my LTS, Whistle Stop Trains, and told Charley, the owner I really like my HO, but I NEED some Lionel for under my Christmas Tree, I just need a basic Steam locomotive(Gotta be UP) half a dozen freight cars, track and transformer, just a basic set up.
Well, I got home and set things up to make sure that everything ran fine, OMG, I was HOOKED, it was the next week, I was back at Whistle Stop and picked up an F-3 Passenger set(Not pictured, but of course in Armour Yellow and Harbor Mist Grey) The O-Gauge virus bit me so bad, that I nearly had to notify the CDC in Atlanta. Be WARNED, the O-Gauge virus while EXTREMELY CONTIAGOUS, is rarely fatal(Unless your Wife catches You buying trains, my Fiance and I have been discussing that very topic lately, silly gal thinks that I have ENOUGH trains, I still love Her though)
The little Hudson that is Top Center, behind the Big Boy in the semi-scale pic, earned that position by being the very locomotive that got me hooked on 3 Rail. The sheer mass is addictive, that Scale Big Boy weighs in, in neighborhood of 15-18 pounds.
Buy a Classic Toy Trains magazine some time, it covers every thing from painted plywood Toy train Layouts, to Hi-Rail Layouts that have scenery to match anything done in HO or N scale.
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
Tom, you are so right. Real stack stuff billows quickly in scale, but the fake HO stuff doesn't...it wisps and the wisps are long and much straighter than the tight billows and roils in the smoke and steam combo out of a real stack. Also, if a steamer does smoke appreciably, it is almost never completely white. It is at least greyish, or black and stream mixed.
All that said, I would never stand in the way of an enterprising person wanting to find a nifty, affordable, and realistic way to model all that a real steamer does. And there must be a lot of room for imagination in anything but the real 1:1 item. If someone could figure out how to get greyish tightly billowed and synchronized smoke out of an HO steamer, I'd be all over it like spots on a leopard. Add some leaking steam at the packing or the snifter valve, some drippings from the injector overflow, a steady wisp rising out of the turbo-generator...oh, oh, oooohhh...!
-Crandell
Maybe I can experiment in O gauge by running them outside, smoke and all, if I do, I want the lionel pennsy s1! Then the mth premier t1!
Oh, how I love trains, and I couldn't wait to see those marker lights shining in the dark, just gotta get up the money first, which could take some time..
twhite ... one of the railroads that I model--Southern Pacific--had an absolute THING about running as clean a stack as possible most of the time, so the lack of smoke doesn't bother me. The other railroad I model--Rio Grande--had some pretty smoky locomotives, especially their big L-131 2-8-8-2's, which according to engineers would blow huge plumes of it out of the stack at random and unpredictable intervals. For that, I just let my imagination take over.
... one of the railroads that I model--Southern Pacific--had an absolute THING about running as clean a stack as possible most of the time, so the lack of smoke doesn't bother me. The other railroad I model--Rio Grande--had some pretty smoky locomotives, especially their big L-131 2-8-8-2's, which according to engineers would blow huge plumes of it out of the stack at random and unpredictable intervals. For that, I just let my imagination take over.
Yes, but surely you have seen towering columns of condensed steam on a still, frigid day. One of my favorite photos is on pages 280-281 in Signor's Southern Pacific's Salt Lake Division of such a scene on a cold day in Nevada. By the way, the book contains a lot of photos with both steam and diesel SP locomotives smokin'....And magination can be more realistic than the "real thing."
Mark
Crandell,
Lionel's new Top of the Line Locomotives Blow smoke at a pretty convincing pressure out of the whistle and blow down. The bell also rocks when activated. They haven't done the Cylinder **** exhaust yet, or the turbo generator, but who knows how far off those are?
Some didn't think that sound would ever fit in N scale, but it is there now, better looking smoke/steam for HO may be just down the road now. I haven't seen MTH's new Smoking HO in person yet, but I have heard great reviews about it, but that is subject to each's own opinion, their O-Gauge can make a small unventilated room uninhabitable though.
One question for anyone here though, the thing that I have the most difficulty understanding how to "Scale Down" is TIME. How do you figure the appropriate speed for a Fast Clock in any scale? in HO does 1 minute =87 minutes?. And as a related question, speed being a factoring of Distance/Time, How are scale speeds calculated?
Inquiring minds want to know,
Doug,
You are so right about the fact that there is no "right" way to enjoy this hobby, and I'm glad your having fun, And I agree the new three rail stuff is very nice.
But here's why I'll never catch that bug or the sound bug or the smoke bug:
NO single model loco will part me from $1200-$1500 in ANY scale.
I have no pet hair to worry about.
I am personally interested in detailed scenery and railroad operations more than the detail of any one piece of motive power or eqipment.
My HO layout is built to a set of standards designed to accomplish the above - 36" is the minimum radius, many curves are 40"-50", #8's the minimum mainline turnout, and trains lengths are nearly prototype for the era I model. In fact I pefer and use selectively compressed passenger cars even with my large curves because 85' cars don't look acceptable to me on 36" radius in HO. My layout space is large but my track plan simple to accomplish this.
In O scale I would need 72" radius, because no matter how good the models look, to my eyes they look bad going around sharp curves. I will agree may HO modelers make compromises in these areas that are different from my standards. They too are intitled to enjoy the hobby as they see fit.
In the larger scales I agree smoke and sound can be effective ellements. But my knowledge of physics tells me these things will never be successfully scaled down to HO or N.
Yes it is a hobby of compromises, we all make choices. Some people spend a lot of time and money and never "settle" on an aspect or set of aspects to the hobby that satisfy them. Others figure out what they like the most and zero in on that. Most disagreements between modelers seem to be between these two different types of modelers.
I know exactly what I like and want to model. No new product has ever dramiticly altered that, not in 40 years now.
One last note, I'm not a collector either. I have NO shelf queens and every purchase is part of the layout plan. This too is part of the "dividing line" between some modelers.
Doug, you have a nice collection there. you might find mine not so interesting. In over 100 locomotives I have no BIg Boys, Challengers, PRR K4's, GG1's, GS4's, NYC Hudsons, N&W "J"'s, etc. So all those manufaturers who keep making the same "stuff" for collectors have missed a lot of money I might have spent.
I don't think anyone on this thread intended to degrade others choices, they simply meant to explain their own. Sometimes it is instintive to explain why you did not choose something else in that process.
Sheldon
rjake4454 Maybe I can experiment in O gauge by running them outside, smoke and all, if I do, I want the lionel pennsy s1! Then the mth premier t1! Oh, how I love trains, and I couldn't wait to see those marker lights shining in the dark, just gotta get up the money first, which could take some time..
rjake,
Actually this is a growing segment of the Hobby, evidently enough so that Atlas O, made their plastic ties UV resistant, and have advertised this point. Gargraves also makes stainless steel O-Gauge track, but I don't know what the expected lifespan of their wooden ties is exposed to the weather. While not extremely common yet, you would be far from the first to try this. Most O-gauge eqipment though is not weather proofed like the better large scale stuff, so plowing the tracks after a decent snowfall, probably isn't reccomended, but some the guys in Large scale eagerly wait for that first snowfall, I have even seen videos of working rotaries, needless to say VERY COOL!!!
Doug, you are really reviving my interest in o-gauge. I would like to talk with you more about the pros and cons of HO, I have a feeling that I may share some of your sentiments about this. I've been thinking about trying to cut my HO collection in half, sell some on ebay, then use the money for my o-gauge fund.
I prefer to run a few expensive realistic trains, perhaps even outside, rather than waste hours and hours on building scenery for plastic models (bachmann, in particular) I find HO to have some fine points, but a lot of it brings a lot of hassle, at least for me (no offence to any person reading this, this is just my experience). The smaller scales just don't provide that train experience that I am looking for, particularly the operating marker lamps and classification lights, although MTH is going into this, but I am not sure if this will catch on, although I have high hopes for them. I am not at all satisfied with Broadway's Paragon 2 series, don't get me wrong, for HO, they are fine models at a good price, but they just aren't the same as lionel or mth premier.
I should say that I am indeed an engine collector, this is the most important aspect of the hobby for me, I also prefer to run them with plenty of signals, crossings, anything with lights, prototypical operation is important too, but this is secondary to me.
Anyway, I would like to talk with you some more about these things if you have the time, again, thanks so much for your input in this thread, I have been trying to meet people into O-gauge, but so far no luck, you have made this area of the hobby seem accessible to me, and I appreciate that. Most HO people scoff at me when I think about going into O gauge, so its a breath of fresh air to talk to you.
Please email, or PM (through the forum link) me and we can exchange email addresses that way. I would be more than Happy to answer any questions you have, or chat about anything. I don't dislike HO, and I have a large collection, that at this point, I'm not going to give up yet. I do find that 3 rail is more relaxing, and stress releiving for ME, than HO, which is what any Hobby should be for.
I have debated back and forth with myself, whether or not to renew my membership at the club, for various reasons operating there just doesn't provide the enjoyment that it used to. I hesitate to leave the club though, because I do enjoy the camaraderie of the club, we do have a really great group. During our annual "Show" the four weekends in November, my favorite position to work is in the Roundhouse, it is the first thing that people see when they enter the layout room, and is one of the few positions that have any real interaction with the public. I really do enjoy dealing with the public. I am sure that they would welcome me to help during show, even if I wasn't still an active member, but, in many things if I'm in, I am ALL the way in.
You most definitely need to check in at the Classic Toy Trains (CTT) forum, it is the very top forum on the index page. There are many on there you could also give you much more info than I could by myself. Lionesoni(Bob Nelson) is an absolute electrical genius and has helped many people with electrical challenges, that I wouldn't have even dreamed of, never mind know how to solve. There are probably many things that he would be able to help others with, if they stopped into the CTT forum.
Well, we're getting more than a bit off topic here, so email/PM me, and I Hope to see you over at the CTT forum soon,
Thanks Doug, I will have to drop in at the classic trains forum. I definately want to talk to you some more about the HO and O gauges, thanks for the offer, I will pm you for sure
Thanks again, and I totally agree with you that the third rail is more relaxing, I focus on engine detail, less on track, third rail doesn't bother me at all when you are running a mth premier. Its the detail on the loco that counts, I'm a collector of steam engines, I want them to have marker lamps and classification lights, because it feels like these things are just necessary for (my) enjoyment of the hobby, and I prefer heavier models when it comes to steam, preferrably no plastic, no big deal really, but the HO crowd kinda gives me the boot if I start talking about that stuff too much around there...
I don't care nearly as much about track appearance as I used to. Tried to get into code 83 but...well, we'll discuss that topic later through pms/email etc........
rjake4454Sir Madog "De gustibus non est..." Great language which I have recently taken up, good to see another latin enthusiast on here.
I had 7 years of Latin in school - but that is over 35 years ago. Have forgotten almost everything of it.
Model railroading is the greatest hobby - and you know, why? It allows for so many different interest, be it scale, period, layout size, area to be modeled - well, and also whether HO steamers should or should not puff smoke...
To each his own!
You certainly can get N-scale engines with steam. I have two. One is an Arnold with specially made Seuthe unit, the other is an 0-4-0 Ibertren, which runs for seven minutes and is the better of the two - looks really great for such a small engine.
I'd like to see an ALCO diesel that not only smokes, but when starting up occassionally shoots flames out the stacks!!
Sir Madog modelmaker51 I don't think H0 smoke has ever looked very realistic even when syncronized, it always looks as you described, cigarette smoke and toy-like, which most H0'ers I think try to avoid. As you also mentioned, the oil residue does get everywhere, track & scenery. With those considerations, smoke is better left to the immagination or Photoshop. Only live steam looks like live steam. I do not quite agree with that statement. Watch this link: www.km-1.de/dynamicsmoke4_3.wmv and you can see why. Now that´s not yet quite HO scale, but the guys are working on it for HO as well.
modelmaker51 I don't think H0 smoke has ever looked very realistic even when syncronized, it always looks as you described, cigarette smoke and toy-like, which most H0'ers I think try to avoid. As you also mentioned, the oil residue does get everywhere, track & scenery. With those considerations, smoke is better left to the immagination or Photoshop. Only live steam looks like live steam.
I don't think H0 smoke has ever looked very realistic even when syncronized, it always looks as you described, cigarette smoke and toy-like, which most H0'ers I think try to avoid. As you also mentioned, the oil residue does get everywhere, track & scenery. With those considerations, smoke is better left to the immagination or Photoshop. Only live steam looks like live steam.
www.km-1.de/dynamicsmoke4_3.wmv
and you can see why.
Now that´s not yet quite HO scale, but the guys are working on it for HO as well.
Well ya, it's No.1 gauge, 1:32 scale (i.e. correct standard gauge train for "LGB" or G gauge track) so it's much much bigger than HO. Great smoke effect, but unfortunately I suspect it will be a long time until HO has anything comparable.
wjstixI'd like to see an ALCO diesel that not only smokes, but when starting up occassionally shoots flames out the stacks!!
Yeah, THAT would be cool! They'd have to figure out how to make it nice and black and synchronize with the engine lag. Being an ALCOholic, I've often contemplated rigging a smoke unit to one of my RS-3's just to get a laugh.
There have been a lot of opinions in this thread both for and against "real" smoke. At the last show I attended, there were a number of manufacturers displaying working smoke units in HO. Obviously some were better than others, just like the quality of the models themselves. Some of them had an irritating affect on the eyes and lungs while others did not. Some looked semi-realistic while others looked terrible and toyish. From my observation, the direction of the hobby in general seems to be toward more realism. Whether that is through adding smoke or sound or just road specific details, model manufacturers are working hard to earn our dollars.
There are far more choices available today than ever before in the hobby. You can get base model train sets, mid-grade engines and cars, high end plastic and brass, with and without sound, running DC or DCC. The advances in DCC in the past few years alone is, in my opinion, just incredible. Who would have thought, when DCC first came out, that it would be able to fit in N gauge equipment, with SOUND no less? The advances in electronics technology has made all sorts of things available to everybody in the hobby that were just pipe dreams twenty years ago. Who's to say that an extremely realistic smoke unit for HO won't come out in the next year or two? And why can't that smoke be non-oily, dissipate quickly, smell like real smoke and not cause any health problems?
Even with the availability, that doesn't mean everybody is going to want it, just like with sound and DCC. It's similar to the options available when you buy a car. There are plenty of options, but not everybody is going to get them all. Some people opt for the base model with no options (my father was like that), some will take a couple of options and some will take all of the options. It's nice to have choices.
Oh, one more thing, as a former smoker myself, I have not noticed any correlation between cigarettes and model railroad smoke units. There is, to my knowledge, no nicotine in the smoke fluid and it doesn't make you want to go out and light up by watching one. Well, at least it didn't for me.
Greg
I agree with modelmaker51. I have six or seven old Bachmann locomotives that came with smoke oil. I tried it when they were new (to me) and was not impressed but noticed the oil on the engine. Now I just run them, leaving smoke to the imagination. I seriously doubt that anyone who expects synchronized smoke/chuff/let-off, etc. will ever be satisfied anyway.
I have had a few HO locos that smoked. I did not enjoy the experiance since it meant the motor or decoder had let the magic smoke out and no longer worked.
Phil
Timber Head Eastern Railroad "THE Railroad Through the Sierras"
Ok why did you nercropost??? this thead is 9 years old
Pointing out that it is an old thread is sufficient, without asking why. It is a rite of passage for Newbies.
Lot's of us have done it and not only as newbies. There is another smoke thread that is current. I've posted in the wrong thread, more than once. Maybe he meant to post there.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Holy necro topic Batman. You never know which topics will be dug out of the deep dark past to be awakened from the dead.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
I agree the "oily residue" comment is not true of today's BLI and MTH HO scale smoking steam engines. I ran them on my layout, and they left no film whatsoever on my other engines and rolling stock. None at all. I would have noticed because I routinely wash my hands to remove extra oil before touching my rolling stock, as I don't care for the greasy sweaty fingerprints that I otherwise leave. I occasionally wash HO engines of all types with a little soap and water just to remove my own greasy fingerprints. I would notice if the smoke fluid was leaving any film residue.
I will attest that any spillage whatsoever can be difficult to clean off the engine in question. Especially if the smoke unit is over-filled, it runs everywhere (I had to use the edges of paper to get into crevices to get the spillage out). The smoke fluid does eventually evaporate, but I spent much time with cotton Q-tip swabs, and regular soap and water, completely removing the oily residue from BLI and MTH steamers before I sold them. Yes--on the boiler there was residue from any small spillage or leakage when the model is tipped over while handling--but the tenders were clean.
John
No worse then the air you breath evey day if the smoke unit was made properly.Look at E- cigerettes .They were invented by a doctor. A model steam engine no matter how detailed it is looks toylike when its running around the room without smoke. It wis the major detail that designe engineers and the industry as a whole in ho scale defleCT like yorself since such a simple detail they cannot accomplish. Oil residue is never a problem since the oil that is used is turned into a vopor and is no longer oil at that point.This deflection from reality is just a erronious statement .
Harpo1meLook at E- cigerettes .They were invented by a doctor.
Did you see that????? He strikes again! No warning!
And than vanishes! Unlike the huge vapor cloud that follows vap smokers around.
Mike.
My You Tube
History repeats itself again. lol
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
I was surprised, while reading this thread, to learn that I had not replied to it when it was originally started. Time to add my worth (about 1.4 cents U.S.).
Smoke from model steam locomotives , unless they're live steamers, is just another version of the giraffe car.
Use it if you want, but my imagination can create smoke and steam better than anything (other than the real ones) that you've ever seen.
Wayne
Wow! .... a ten-year-old resurrected thread huh.
I wonder how many of the original members here used to still smoke 10 years ago. I know anonymous did. He told me that.
I remember he helped me when I was quitting. He helped me more than anyone on this Forum. Not that others didn't, I thank you all too
I don't know,... I don't care if model steamers smoke or not. Smoking doesn't really make a steamer or not (Except for the real ones)
What concerns me is all these kids starting to vape and being deceived. They think vaping is a safe alternative to smoking
At least I knew smoking was bad when I started as a kid. Vaping has three to five times the concentration of nicotine, depending on how hard you puff.
I wonder if the Vape in model steam engines has nicotine in it.... NOT.... The model steamer doesn't get addicted and go buy some more
Thanks for listening
Track Fiddler