About 10 years ago I made two Overton passenger car sets from kits for my RR the ME &O
One set was the 34 Fters and the other the 50 Fters
Do these represent anything close to the actual length/s
51% share holder in the ME&O ( Wife owns the other 49% )
ME&O
The short answer is yes. While they may not be exact models of specific prototypes, cars like the MDC 34' and 50' cars where common in the 1870- 1905 period and the 50' length was very typical. Shorter cars did exist, but again, whether there is an exact prototype for the 34' cars i'm not sure.
Carstens book "Passenger Cars - vol 1" has drawings and pictures of several such prototypes in various lengths.
Sheldon
Thanks I thought the 50s were OK but was unsure of the 34
I will run the 34s with the old time 4-4-0 and the 50s with the modern 4-4-0
The prototype for the Overton cars are some post WW1 cars built for the Sierra. There were also several roads that had short baggage cars,
For the vast majority of roads in the 1890-1920 era the overton cars are not typical. 50-70 foot cars would be much more common.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Technically, MDC used the term Overton for only the 34 foot cars. The 50 foot cars were described as Pullman if they had a duckbill roof and Overland if they had the full length clerestory roof.
The 50 foot passenger car with duckbill roof appears to be a model of the Pullman "Pioneer". The Overton coach and combine look like models of Sierra RR cars. Whether by accident or intent, the Overton baggage car is close to a car built by the V&T.
Layout is a project in progress but here are the two types
dehusman The prototype for the Overton cars are some post WW1 cars built for the Sierra. There were also several roads that had short baggage cars, For the vast majority of roads in the 1890-1920 era the overton cars are not typical. 50-70 foot cars would be much more common.
Adding to the above comment, I would note that the 34' cars were unique to the Sierra and as I recall, operated only on a single branchline of that road, plus there were only just a couple of cars of this design in total. Thus, it is difficult to considering them as prototypical for use in any other situation.
The fifty-footers are much better respresentatives of "typical/common" passenger car design from the later years of the 19th century up until the very early years of the 20th.
CNJ831
CNJ831 I would note that the 34' cars were unique to the Sierra and as I recall, operated only on a single branchline of that road, plus there were only just a couple of cars of this design in total. Thus, it is difficult to considering them as prototypical for use in any other situation.
I would note that the 34' cars were unique to the Sierra and as I recall, operated only on a single branchline of that road, plus there were only just a couple of cars of this design in total. Thus, it is difficult to considering them as prototypical for use in any other situation.
The Angels Branch started in front of the Nevills Hotel in Jamestown and wound its way back and forth, always following the "Mother Lode" vein and passing many of the most famous gold mines in its 19.3 tortuous miles. Included along the route were "switchbacks" in the steep canyon of the Stanislaus River.The first train into Angels Camp arrived on September 15, 1902. Because of the steep grades, tight turns, and numerous switchbacks, geared locomotives and special equipment had to be used. Two special "shorty" passenger cars were built especially for the Angels Branch in 1902 by the Holman Car Company of San Francisco. These unique cars, combination coach-baggage No. 5 and coach No. 6, have seen many years of varied service on the Sierra. Both have been used in countless movies and remain on display today at Railtown 1897 State Historic Park in Jamestown, CA.
Mark
CNJ831 dehusman The prototype for the Overton cars are some post WW1 cars built for the Sierra. There were also several roads that had short baggage cars, For the vast majority of roads in the 1890-1920 era the overton cars are not typical. 50-70 foot cars would be much more common. Adding to the above comment, I would note that the 34' cars were unique to the Sierra and as I recall, operated only on a single branchline of that road, plus there were only just a couple of cars of this design in total. Thus, it is difficult to considering them as prototypical for use in any other situation. The fifty-footers are much better respresentatives of "typical/common" passenger car design from the later years of the 19th century up until the very early years of the 20th. CNJ831
Do you think that the fifty-footers could have perhaps seen branch or secondary service into the 1940's or even the 1950's on some roads?
Bruce
In the case of the ME&O (my RR) special copies were made (:-) at least that is my story
citylimits CNJ831 dehusman The prototype for the Overton cars are some post WW1 cars built for the Sierra. There were also several roads that had short baggage cars, For the vast majority of roads in the 1890-1920 era the overton cars are not typical. 50-70 foot cars would be much more common. Adding to the above comment, I would note that the 34' cars were unique to the Sierra and as I recall, operated only on a single branchline of that road, plus there were only just a couple of cars of this design in total. Thus, it is difficult to considering them as prototypical for use in any other situation. The fifty-footers are much better respresentatives of "typical/common" passenger car design from the later years of the 19th century up until the very early years of the 20th. CNJ831 Do you think that the fifty-footers could have perhaps seen branch or secondary service into the 1940's or even the 1950's on some roads? Bruce
While one can never say absolutely never in the world of railroading, it would be highly unlikely. By the 40's and 50's even the heavyweight steel passenger cars were getting old. The far older 50' wooden cars would have just about rattled themselves to pieces by then...except perhaps on some questionable small, Pettycoat Junction-like, shortline.
citylimits Do you think that the fifty-footers could have perhaps seen branch or secondary service into the 1940's or even the 1950's on some roads?
Bruce,
Actually many did stay in use, but mostly on small lines and branch lines. The Maryland & Pennsylvania ran its 50' open platform wood coaches right up to the end of its passenger service in 1952. One of the Ma & Pa cars is part of the fleet of similar cars still in service today on the Strasburg Railroad. That car was built in 1913 - still in service today.
There are many photos showing the Ma & Pa operations all thru the 40's and early 50's with steam, diesel and gas electrics pulling the wood coaches, combines and head end equipment.
The Strasburg roster contains upwards of twenty such cars most bought from small lines in the mid to late 50's and put right in to service there. Still running today, as many as 15 trains a day in the summer - last place where two regularly scheduled steam trains pass each other - pulling 50' wood open platform cars.
The only reason these shorty cars were likely made in the first place may have been due to the popularity of "Petticoat Junction", where the Hooterville Cannonball, Sierra RR#3 and one of the remaining short Sierra combines, still roamed in the mid-1960's
Now we have similar versions of these cars and this engine in most scales.
Have fun with your trains
IIRC Mantua's old-time 4-6-0 was based on Sierra No.3. All the models, regardless what railroad it was lettered for, came with a "3" numberplate on the front of the smokebox.
CNW/Omaha used some wood passenger cars with open end platforms in commuter service (often as smokers) into the 1940's and maybe into the 50's. Not sure if they were 50' or 60' but they were very similar to the MDC cars in overall appearance.
BTW in the South, some very old passenger cars remained in service as "Jim Crow" cars well into the mid-20th century, so it wasn't uncommon to see a train with heavyweight cars except for one or two ancient wood Jim Crow cars being in the consist.
It's worth remembering is that "Overton" is a made-up word Model Die Casting/Roundhouse invented to give the HO models a name with an old-timey sound. The models aren't really based on any prototype, as their roofs and trucks are quite different from those of the Sierra Ry short combine and coach.
So long,Andy
Andy Sperandeo MODEL RAILROADER Magazine
I believe these might be correct. Any thoughts? They are not available yet.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
wjstixCNW/Omaha used some wood passenger cars with open end platforms in commuter service (often as smokers) into the 1940's and maybe into the 50's.
I know that the "Old and Weary" (NYO&W) used the wooden open end coaches in revenue service until 1930 on their milk trains. With that little piece of information in my head, I got out some ancient Pocher "Overton" cars and repainted them for my railroad set in the late 1920s.
Ray Seneca Lake, Ontario, and Western R.R. (S.L.O.&W.) in HO
We'll get there sooner or later!
Okay, so I'm confused. The MDC 50s I thoutght were a steel car and the wood 50s were Bachmann? Or is this another one of those models made their way around the sellouts?
-Morgan
MDC Roundhouse made 34' "Overton" wood passenger cars,
50' wood "Overland" passenger cars,
and 85' "Pullman Palace" wood passenger cars.
They also used to make a 60' Harriman (round roof) steel passenger car. I don't think they make the Harriman cars anymore, but the others are still made by Athearn (who owns Roundhouse now).
http://www.roundhousetrains.com/Products/RollingStock/Default.aspx
Flashwave Okay, so I'm confused. The MDC 50s I thoutght were a steel car and the wood 50s were Bachmann? Or is this another one of those models made their way around the sellouts?
Morgan--it gets confusing by the Roundhouse names for their passenger cars:
The Roundhouse steel cars were based on the "Harriman"-style 60-footers that were used predominantly on the "Harriman Lines" during the first part of the 20th Century. Baggage, mail, coach, diner and observation. The design was copied by some other railroads, but possibly their most famous usage was by the Southern Pacific in either daytime or commuter service on the West Coast. The first "Coast Daylight" was made up of these cars, painted a light gray, between Los Angeles and San Francisco.
"Overland" cars are the wooden 50-footer open-platform cars that are generally based upon passenger cars used between, say, 1870-1880 on railroads.
"Overton" cars are the short 40-footers that only the Sierra Railway in California used on their Angels Camp Branch between Tuolomne and Angels Camp in the foothills of the central Sierra Nevada in California. As Mark says, there were only two built--a combine and a coach, and were used on a branch that ran on steep grades and numerous switchbacks traversing the Stanislaus River Canyon between the two towns. The grades were so steep (approaching 5%) and the curves so sharp, on both sides of the canyon, that only short equipment could be used. In fact, the general motive power used on the branch consided of Heislers and Shays. Most rod locomotives couldn't handle either the curves or the grades. It was a fascinating 19 miles of railroading. Before the river was dammed in the 1970's and the roadbed mostly flooded, it was possible to follow the abandoned grade on parallel State Route 49 from Angels Camp to the bottom of the gorge (and it was STEEP!) and see the switchbacks. A buddy of mine and I even hiked the switchbacks down to the river from the Angel's Camp side of the gorge, and it was exhausting. And we were in SHAPE, back then, LOL! So those short little cars were an absolute necessity.
However, where Roundhouse came up with the name "Overton" is beyond me. Most Sierra Railway employees just referred to them as the "Angel's Camp Cars."
Those little 'shorties' are still at Toulomne City in California, at the Sierra Railway branch of the California State Railway Museum. They're cute.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
twhite Flashwave Okay, so I'm confused. The MDC 50s I thoutght were a steel car and the wood 50s were Bachmann? Or is this another one of those models made their way around the sellouts? Morgan--it gets confusing by the Roundhouse names for their passenger cars: The Roundhouse steel cars were based on the "Harriman"-style 60-footers that were used predominantly on the "Harriman Lines" during the first part of the 20th Century. Baggage, mail, coach, diner and observation. The design was copied by some other railroads, but possibly their most famous usage was by the Southern Pacific in either daytime or commuter service on the West Coast. The first "Coast Daylight" was made up of these cars, painted a light gray, between Los Angeles and San Francisco. "Overland" cars are the wooden 50-footer open-platform cars that are generally based upon passenger cars used between, say, 1870-1880 on railroads. "Overton" cars are the short 40-footers that only the Sierra Railway in California used on their Angels Camp Branch between Tuolomne and Angels Camp in the foothills of the central Sierra Nevada in California. As Mark says, there were only two built--a combine and a coach, and were used on a branch that ran on steep grades and numerous switchbacks traversing the Stanislaus River Canyon between the two towns. The grades were so steep (approaching 5%) and the curves so sharp, on both sides of the canyon, that only short equipment could be used. In fact, the general motive power used on the branch consided of Heislers and Shays. Most rod locomotives couldn't handle either the curves or the grades. It was a fascinating 19 miles of railroading. Before the river was dammed in the 1970's and the roadbed mostly flooded, it was possible to follow the abandoned grade on parallel State Route 49 from Angels Camp to the bottom of the gorge (and it was STEEP!) and see the switchbacks. A buddy of mine and I even hiked the switchbacks down to the river from the Angel's Camp side of the gorge, and it was exhausting. And we were in SHAPE, back then, LOL! So those short little cars were an absolute necessity. However, where Roundhouse came up with the name "Overton" is beyond me. Most Sierra Railway employees just referred to them as the "Angel's Camp Cars." Those little 'shorties' are still at Toulomne City in California, at the Sierra Railway branch of the California State Railway Museum. They're cute. Tom
RIght, I have the names matched to the lengths, but I was of the impression that the Overlands were of metal construction. Though where I got that is beyond me. Possibly the buisness car from the 4 pack release, but i duuno.
Always thought the overtons were cute too. But then I like the Oscar Pikers for the same reason. My guess is the name came from Over- matching the overland cars they are related too, and the fact that maybe at there size they were one ton cars? Doesn't seem right by the weight of the trucks though.
I think I;ve been to SIerra, but I don't remember the cars.
twhite The Roundhouse steel cars were based on the "Harriman"-style 60-footers that were used predominantly on the "Harriman Lines" during the first part of the 20th Century. Baggage, mail, coach, diner and observation. The design was copied by some other railroads, but possibly their most famous usage was by the Southern Pacific in either daytime or commuter service on the West Coast.
The Roundhouse steel cars were based on the "Harriman"-style 60-footers that were used predominantly on the "Harriman Lines" during the first part of the 20th Century. Baggage, mail, coach, diner and observation. The design was copied by some other railroads, but possibly their most famous usage was by the Southern Pacific in either daytime or commuter service on the West Coast.
I don't trust Roundhouse's versions of Harriman cars. Particularly, the diner and observation cars are very much short compared to any SP, real world, all-metal passenger cars. The shortest diners I see in SP's standard plans were 72', while 77' or more was common. As for observation cars, they were at least 72.5'.
Flashwave RIght, I have the names matched to the lengths, but I was of the impression that the Overlands were of metal construction. Though where I got that is beyond me. Possibly the buisness car from the 4 pack release, but i duuno.
I don't believe those Sierra-like cars have been produced in metal (other than in brass) for a very long time. Five decades ago I acquired a pot-metal version of the combine and coach set. Even back then, I thought they were crude models.
richg1998I believe these might be correct. Any thoughts? They are not available yet.Rich
I believe Ulrich offered these cars ( and a couple of other similar ones) as metal kits at one time.
If you have the Roundhouse/MDC 50' cars and want to run them in a more modern (late steam) era, why not downgrade them to work train service?
Wayne
richg1998 I believe these might be correct. Any thoughts? They are not available yet. Rich
Yes, that's the "guilty party" (as in a crude model.)
One of each Overton and Overland
To add some further perspective to the discussion, as I recall, the shorty Seirra cars first appear in the hobby as an MR article with construction diagrams sometime in the latter half of the 1950's (there had also been several MR articles concerning the Seirra in general, in the 50's). This article briefly outlined the history of these cars, making it clear they numbered only a couple of examples used on a single RR branchline.
However, perhaps because of the very tight radii, spaghetti-bowl layouts of the day and their need for shorter than normal prototype passenger rolling stock (there's a whole complex story there), Ulrich not long after the MR article introduced a diecast kit to build the Seirra cars. Spurred by their success, a few years later a highy similar pair of models, this time done in plastic, were offered from MDC and were issued under a multitude of inappropriate and improbable road names thereafter.
Further regarding the so-called "Overland" 50-footers, these were initially referred to in the MDC catalogs as "Pullman's Palace Cars", not to be confused with MDC's larger and later prototype wooden cars which were offered under the same title. The 50-footers were indeed more representative of passenger equipment from the post civil war era up through the Gay Ninties - parictularly those with the "duckbilled" roof - than anything constructucted even very early in the 20th century and why I indicated previously they would not likely have been seen in regular passenger service by the 1940's and 50's. While some wooden cars certainly did exist in regular service in that interval on some branch and shortlines, they were not all that close to the MDC cars in appearance, outside of simply being made of wood and having open end platforms. I'd also note that MDC's longer, more elaborate Pullman Palace cars were indeed still in-service on some roads very late in the steam era, as were some other more approapriate early 20th century wooden car designs offered in plastic by other HO and N manufacturers.
markpiercerichg1998 I believe these might be correct. Any thoughts? They are not available yet. Rich Yes, that's the "guilty party" (as in a crude model.) Mark
Jeff Stone of Bitter Creek bought the old BC Models line a few years ago and is upgrading the rolling stock line. We shall see some time this year how good the upgrade is.
The 50' cars are pretty good representation of 19th c. Pullman cars based on a book I have covering the wood Pullman cars. Some lasted into the 20th c. as parlor cars etc. but the 80-85' cars had become the norm for new cars in the 1890's.
Note that in the 1950's many modellers liked to model (or least dabble in) 'turn of the century' railroading from 1890-1910, often in sort of 'cutesy' ways that probably would look kinda funny today. Cars like the 34' wood cars would fit the bill for those type of layouts.
Just to complicate life
The orange car is repainted from a Rivarossi Circus train set with an old time 4-4-0
Measuring from platform ends
Blue--5"--36 Scale feet
Orange--6 3/8"-- 46 scale feet
Red--8'--58 scale feet