Cost of MR Hobby too Expensive !?!?

[Don Z]

The coroner just looked into this thread and stated the horse has been declared dead. Time to stop the beating and find something else to discuss.

Don Z.

[blownout cylinder]

Autobus Prime

But manufacturing hasn't been driven out of this country.  Far from it.  In fact, the US is the #1 manufacturing nation on Earth.  Why do people not realize this?

There's a TON of manufacturing in the US.  We're here, making the stuff you use every day. The post-industrial misconception is a harmful one, because it keeps smart kids with mechanical aptitude from seeking out training, and keeps us from getting the good people we need to make manufacturing even better.   

Most people do not get this kind of information because everybody's head is getting caved in by all the so called---globalist rhetoric. This kind of jabber has been going on since the early '70's when the fuel 'shortage' cropped up.---we just don't wanna hear this stuff because we'd rather spend the profits on buying up investments--one should see where the investment money is coming from--pension funds---

Autobus Prime

How does this have anything to do with model railroading?  I guess we should consider: have we ignored the manufacturing end of the hobby too much, in favor of farming it out and reaping easy profits? If we have, what are we going to do when the imports become too expensive?  This happened before, with brass.  It will happen again with Chinese plastic.

Although some are reporting plastics are already getting out of hand, I'll wait and see on this one--

Of course, Autobus--I could see more mfg opportunities coming back to your country as well as mine--it is already occurring----------------

[blownout cylinder]

When companies pay execs upwards of 900% or more of the cost of the guy working the plant floor plus the really strange bonuses---and somehow these are never talked about as PART of the overall labour costs I do tend to get a little piculous---look at one certain insurance co's bonuses--given from a bailout no less--no wonder there is a lot of irritation going on.

But what the hey--we could drop all kinds of pension funds, all those 401K's--ever factor in cost of maintaining those funds for a company?--and go back to the age old idea--seemed to work for others before---saving for a rainy day. By the way--not all businesses pay pension funds--mine never did--and I'm glad they never did--I invested in my own stuff and stocks and can still see returns---

But now that we're here how to go to that spot for large segments is rather tricky.

[citylimits]

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

Bruce,

Based on your view, there is no answer to the OP's question.

The model railroad industry is not responsible for how much disposable income he, you or anyone else has or does not have. They are by no means obligated to lower their prices because someone thinks they are too high. As I and others have suggested, the market will control that.

They are only responsible for making a market competitive product within the current costs of production.

I think we have established that they are doing so.

Nobody "owes" anyone access to this hobby, or even food and shelter in my world view.

Make more money or don't buy as many trains. And in either event, stop complaining about it.

"The universal misery of capitalism is the unequal distribution of the blessings, the universal blessing of socialism is the equal distrabution of the misery" - Wiston Churchill

Sheldon

 

 

My goodness, Sheldon, did you find all of that in what I have written elsewhere on this subject? 

I am hoping that perhaps you are making your thoughts know to a general audience. Look the OPs question is very simple and is definitely answerable. All these side issues are only muddying up the waters.

 

Perhaps if I posted my thoughts in a different way they may become clearer. Here is a hypothetical conversation between one model railroader and another - I'm trying to make this conversation a reflection of the current discourse in this subject. I'm trying also to show some of the ways people can think - they might not be correct, but that just what they think.

So here goes:

 

MR #1: So, you like that Genesis Mikado - are you going to grab it?

 

MR #2: Nah, its too expensive for me right now, what with taxes to pay and I want to help send the grand kids to College.

 

MR #1: OK, but the Mike is good value - it's DCC ready and look at all that detail.

 

MR#2: Yeah, your right about that, but  the DCC ready stuff makes the Mike too expensive (for me) right now. Besides, I still run DC and making the change to DCC & sound is just way too expensive - I do like the way it works though.

 

MR#1: You don't have to use the DCC - it'll run fine on your pike. Do you realise that even with the added features, this model loco is actually cheaper than what we used to pay in the sixties when we were starting out.

 

MR#2: That's interesting, but how does that fact make it easier for me to buy this one now?

 

MR#1: Well it should do - I think you may be just a bit slow in recognising a good price when you see it.

 

MR#2: Sometimes I think that with all this new technology loaded into our models we may run the risk of being priced out of the hobby, but the range of choice is certainly much greater than when we were kids - that's for sure. With all of this stuff to buy I think that the hobby generally has become too expensive now.

 

MR#1. Look, why are you busting out all this liberal twaddle - you never used to be that way?

 

MR#2: Heck, Hank, where did all that come from, I just said that I thought the Mike was too expensive for me to buy right now and it may be that with a declining income I may never be able to buy it.

 

MR#1: Perhaps if I told you an encouraging quote or two from (Sir) Winston Churchill that may show you how your socialist views are effecting your ability to recognise just how much of a bargain you are passing up.

 

MR#2: Sure if that will help me get that Mike.

 

MR#1: No, it wont do that, but it may change the way you think about the MR industry in general. You know, they're not really trying to rip you off or make huge profits at your expense - I don't know why you would even think that. All that price gouging nonsense you've just come out with is getting me quite upset - why don't you just go out and make more money, they're always hiring at Mc Donald's and I'm told they pay an extra quarter an hour after midnight - see, problem solved.

 

MR#2: Yeah and I'll be too beat to worry about all this  political stuff or even give a tinkers cuss about my model railroad - yes, the advantages of working my guts out at an all night burger joint are becoming more and more obvious. Hey, thanks for clearing up a lot of stuff for me, I can see where I've been going wrong now. It's just that I can't built kits the way I used to - the parts are getting so small and fiddly I'm gluing air hoses to the trucks of some cars - see what being a socialist liberal can do to a man? I kind of have to buy RTR now.

 

MR#1: Look, if you stopped complaining every time you stumbled on some small inconvenience it would be a lot better for all of us. You need to go back home and get your lathe and English Wheel out from under the work bench and scratch build a Mike from all that brass stock you've horded. What ever you do though, stop this infernal whining about how tough your life is.

 

MR#2: Well, it's not so easy for me to do that now - I had to sell the lathe to buy the Spectrum yard goat you reckoned I should have.

 

MR#1: That was an excellent buy, in getting that model you were actually saving about fifty bucks over 1960's prices - it was important that I steered you in the right direction on that one. I can save you even more money too if you buy that Mikado.

 

MR#2: OK, I'll sell the English Wheel and the brass stock - I hope any buyer won't think my asking price will be too expensive though - I really do want that Mike.

 

Bruce

[Autobus Prime]

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

You want to know why all those jobs are gone? Because after a while people like me who didn't have those kind of high wage jobs stopped buying the over priced stuff you produced.

That combined with the high taxes and high regulation have driven all the industry out of this country.

But manufacturing hasn't been driven out of this country.  Far from it.  In fact, the US is the #1 manufacturing nation on Earth.  Why do people not realize this?

There's a TON of manufacturing in the US.  We're here, making the stuff you use every day. The post-industrial misconception is a harmful one, because it keeps smart kids with mechanical aptitude from seeking out training, and keeps us from getting the good people we need to make manufacturing even better.   

A great deal of the highly publicized offshoring wasn't motivated by long-term cost savings, but of a shortsighted desire to invest the money in the high-performing stock market, instead of the plant.  As it turned out, the performance was artificial, and now those companies are struggling.  Boo hoo.   The farsighted ones invested in manufacturing, and this will pay dividends, monetary and otherwise, in the long run.  The easy way to wealth ... isn't. 

Despite all our regulation and taxation, and against every attempt by the shortsighted profiteers and politicians to dismantle our industrial patrimony, we are still the number one manufacturing nation on Earth (look it up) and we do it while paying a living wage and protecting the natural environment.  THAT is an accomplishment worthy of note, instead of ignoring, wouldn't you say?

GM is not in trouble because they can't build good cars, their in trouble because they pay too much to have the fenders installed and then pay too much retirement to people who should have saved and invested those high wages rather than expecting someone to take care of them later.

I'm really tired of the "somebody owes me a good job with a fat retirement package" thinking and all that goes with it.

You'll never catch me saying a living wage is too much, or that the people who made you a few million dollars, each, during their carreers, don't deserve a few hundred thousand of that after retirement.  I'm not going to sit by the track and cheer the race to the bottom.  That's something to be lamented.

I am glad to see you don't subscribe to the widespread poor-quality or low-technology myth, however.  Good for you! 

I do agree that certain other manufacturers are at an unfair advantage, mostly because they have fewer retirees.  That's the breaks, I guess, but what can be done about it?  I guess that's a topic for another day.

How does this have anything to do with model railroading?  I guess we should consider: have we ignored the manufacturing end of the hobby too much, in favor of farming it out and reaping easy profits? If we have, what are we going to do when the imports become too expensive?  This happened before, with brass.  It will happen again with Chinese plastic.

 

 

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

Midnight,

First let me say that when people or companies promise something, they should stick to it. A deal is a deal.

However, that does not mean it was a sound economic idea in the first place. The big union wages and benifits of the 60's and the high taxes from then to now have put us where we are.

401(k), that's just more big government and big corperate BS in my view. But like anything in the stock market, its not gone until you sell at a loss.

I have been self employed or worked for small companies all my life, my only retirement is what I have saved and invested. I WAS the other 50% for my self. None of that is in the stock market. I saw the folly in that years ago and got out.

Your references to "cheap" companies and "they deserve" clearly show we are philosophcally at oposite ends of the heart of this issue.

Have you ever ran you own company? Decided who earns what or what products will cost, or seen the real cost of doing business? OR, most important, risked your own money with no garrantee of success? Or actually lost money in a business venture?

It is easy to be critical of business when you have always been on the pay check recieving end and not on the pay check writing end. 

I have no quarrel with those who have chosen what they saw as a more secure route than what I took, however I expect them to live with their choices just as I have had to live with mine, good and bad, without complaint or blaming others.

Liberal - A person who feels a great debt to his fellow man, a debt he proposes to pay with other peoples money.

Conservative - A person who has paid his debt to his fellow man, by earning his own money.

We should simply agree to disagree, so I will consider this my last comment.

Sheldon 

[Midnight Railroader]

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

and then pay too much retirement to people who should have saved and invested those high wages

 

Oh, you mean the 401(k) plan pushed by cheap companies so they wouldn't have to pay pensions anymore?

Yeah, those are great. Mine lost $5,000 in value thanks to the economy tanking. That's $5,000 of my money that's gone.

"Too much" retirement? If someone works for you for 25 years, they deserve it for their loyalty. 

 

[BRAKIE]

Sheldon,Thanks to my last union job I have a very nice medical retirement.. It wasn't a handout..I earned it by working and adding to the retirement fund which is and remains 50-50 deal.I paid 50% the company matched it..Nothing is free..

 

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

BRAKIE

Many forget there was a lot of good paying Union factory and construction jobs in the 50/60s.Times was good..Didn't like your current job? Quit and go to work within 48 hours for another company.

 

A good union factory job would pay $130-140 a week-bring home was around $105.00(a lot of cash back then)..Taxes wasn't as high back then either,nor was car or mortgage payments...

Larry,

You want to know why all those jobs are gone? Because after a while people like me who didn't have those kind of high wage jobs stopped buying the over priced stuff you produced.

That combined with the high taxes and high regulation have driven all the industry out of this country.

GM is not in trouble because they can't build good cars, their in trouble because they pay too much to have the fenders installed and then pay too much retirement to people who should have saved and invested those high wages rather than expecting someone to take care of them later.

I'm really tired of the "somebody owes me a good job with a fat retirement package" thinking and all that goes with it.

Stop complaining! Earn more money or do without, I'm tired of paying for people who don't work. Tired of high taxes and noisy government.

I'm sorry some of you didn't learn economics in school or didn't plan your future better, but its not the fault of Athearn, Bachmann, Walthers, Atlas or any of the rest of the MR industry. And its not the fault of the rest of us who understand economics or who ended up in different circumstances that you did not.

Again - "The universal misery of capitalism is the unequal distribution of the blessings, but, the universal blessing of socialism is the equal distribution of the misery" - Winston Churchill

Fact is, one hours labor at any given trade today, buys about what it did 10 years, 20 years or 30 years ago. The fact that there are fewer jobs in some trades, or that the government taxes are a larger percentage, or the banker charges more interest because you finance 100% of your home instead of 70%, all have nothing to do with it.

If you really don't like the price of model trains, stop voting for those who would raise your taxes and keep promising to "care" for you.

"Any man that would give up the smallest measure of liberty for any measure of security, has and deserves niether" - Ben Franklin

Sheldon 

 

[andrechapelon]

That was then and this is now. I also can't understand why you can not see that there are many different factors that have a baring on price, enough so that comparing prices from widely different generations are pointless and are not helpful in answering what the OP wanted to discuss. Direct comparisons of this type are of limited interest if they are not germane to the subject of the original posting.

For crying out loud, my university degree was in Economics. A great deal of my career in IT was supporting the financial arm of the company I worked for. I've provided seed money for a small business startup. I've forgotten more than most people will ever know about what bears on prices.

What's at work with those who continuously bellyache about hobby pricing is a sense of victimhood coupled with a sense of entitlement to high quality merchandise at bargain basement prices. It costs money to develop the products on offer. The market is not only not large, it's fragmented as well. Production runs are small compared to other industrial output. Economies of scale of the kind seen in other industries is not possible. Nobody ever seems to consider that. Athearn is a relatively big manufacturer in its market, but it's microscopic compared to the likes of Ford or Toyota.

I don't give a flying fig if the cost of your airfare to New Zealand paid by you in 1969 is relatively more expensive then than the airfare paid today to cover the same journey. Conditions existing in the airline industry at that time were vastly different than they are today - in 1969 it was still considered by many to be a luxury to travel by air. Now international air travel is routine and with specials offered by many airlines - $1.00 ( special conditions apply, needless to say) to fly between Auckland and Christchurch by Virgin Blue, air travel has never been cheaper. Once again though, your reasoning is flawed if you believe that there is within the context of the OP's original proposition a need for this comparison. That was then and this is now. I also can't understand why you can not see that there are many different factors that have a baring on price, enough so that comparing prices from widely different generations are pointless and are not helpful in answering what the OP wanted to discuss. Direct comparisons of this type are of limited interest if they are not germane to the subject of the original posting.

 Conditions in a whole host of industries are vastly different than they were before. It was vastly cheaper to make a trans-Pacific flight in 1969 than it was in 1939, not only in relative terms, but in absolute terms and it's even cheaper now.  

The hobby is totally discretionary. No one "needs" trains anymore than they "need" a vacation trip to Fiji. If you can't afford it now, save for it if it's something you value or just don't do it, but in the name of all that's holy, quit bellyaching about it.

EDIT: The above is not directed at you personally, but at a general audience.

I shouldn't have to point out the obvious to you, but there is nowhere stated or implied in any thing I have written in this post that I believe we are the victims of price gouging by QANTAS or anybody else in the business community servicing model railroaders - where did you get that from, it's a little creative, I do believe. 

 

I was using it as an example and I didn't accuse you of believing that we are being gouged by QANTAS. If you had followed the numerous threads that have arisen on this topic, you would have discovered that there actually ARE a considerable number of people who DO believe that hobby suppliers are price gouging. They are the ones I had in mind.

 

Andre

[andrechapelon]

.......And in either event, stop complaining about it.

What he said.

Andre

 

[blownout cylinder]

BRAKIE

Barry,Every time this comes up so does the wages back then..

Many forget there was a lot of good paying Union factory and construction jobs in the 50/60s.Times was good..Didn't like your current job? Quit and go to work within 48 hours for another company.

 

A good union factory job would pay $130-140 a week-bring home was around $105.00(a lot of cash back then)..Taxes wasn't as high back then either,nor was car or mortgage payments...

 A brass engine was as low as $21.95..A Athearn car kit could be had for $1.25..MR and Trains was 50 cents.

There is no way to compare today with the 50/60s..

There were also jobs in mgmt, retail and such that were not quite so well paying. Then along came the "Post Industrial '70's" and now we see that the mfg jobs aren't near as plentiful so of course one sees more of the "this hobby is expensive---" threads.

Besides--even nowadays deals can be had---do a bit of hunting. If no deal can be found learn--or do--scratchbuilding---have fun!

[Rangerover]

I think it's all relevant/irrelevant whatever....a brand new 1979 Chevrolet Corvette $12,313.00

In the early 70's I had a mortgage, raising 2 kids, model RRing...Well I waited for the sales on Loco's before I purchased them, I remember the last one, I still have from then, went on sale for $9.99 from $12.99 at a LHS.

Funny today I wait for them and any MRR stuff to go on sale, unless I really want it now. The Internet has made it possible to find sales on most everything. I really don't see my hobby or my other hobby's price too expensive or out of sight to where I would quit or find it too expensive! 

So I'm not complaining at  all, too old and wise for that nonsense anyhow!

[Autobus Prime]

reklein

I been lookin at some MRRs from the 50s. Price of the mag was 35 cents. The Varney ads on the back which usually consisted of a photo by John Allen adavertised cars for $1.70 to $2.95 and an engine for around $13.00. Just my ,BILL

rk:

This would be about $12-$20 for the cars and $91 for the loco in today's dollars, depending on what year it was.  Varney wasn't the cheapest supplier around. 

I don't think we can just say "inflation". There's more to it.  Loco and car kits did go up at a fairly steady rate.  However, the set of popular mass-market stuff seems to have *decreased* in actual inflation-adjusted price up until the mid-1990s or so, but after that we've had increases, and I wonder why.

Possibly, it is because so much now is produced as some sort of limited run.  Maybe the average model railroader has more income now, and doesn't have to worry about price, or maybe some manufacturers have decided that they don't need the other kind.  There does seem to be less emphasis on economy in the hobby press, and in the manufacturers' ad copy, compared with 15-20 years ago and before.  Is there some sort of taboo in effect, where we don't want to have our train time spoiled by dismal economics?

[BRAKIE]

blownout cylinder

reklein

I been lookin at some MRRs from the 50s. Price of the mag was 35 cents. The Varney ads on the back which usually consisted of a photo by John Allen adavertised cars for $1.70 to $2.95 and an engine for around $13.00. Just my ,BILL

AAHHH--But how much was the average wage back then? In calculating the relative expenses and such we never seem to take that wage issue into the equation

 

Barry,Every time this comes up so does the wages back then..

Many forget there was a lot of good paying Union factory and construction jobs in the 50/60s.Times was good..Didn't like your current job? Quit and go to work within 48 hours for another company.

 

A good union factory job would pay $130-140 a week-bring home was around $105.00(a lot of cash back then)..Taxes wasn't as high back then either,nor was car or mortgage payments...

 A brass engine was as low as $21.95..A Athearn car kit could be had for $1.25..MR and Trains was 50 cents.

There is no way to compare today with the 50/60s..

 

Unless you can take $5.00 and can go to a movie,have McD burgers,a milkshake and still have $2.00 left..

 

Put $3.00 in your gas tank and cruise the drive ins on Friday and Saturday night...

 

Yup..Good times.

[emdgp92]

 Jeez, is it just me, or do these threads show up every few months?

Model Railroading *can* be an expensive hobby, but it doesn't have to be. There are always bargains out there, provided you know where to look. Not long ago, I found an N scale Kato E8 that was salvaged after its hobby shop was flooded. Nothing wrong with the E, other than some mud on the box. As such, I picked it up for less than $40. Granted, it's painted wrong--in Southern green, while I'm a Penn Central modeler...but for $40, I couldn't complain, and eventually it'll get a PC black paint job. You don't see Kato engines of *any* type marked down that much!

But, some of the high prices can be blamed on companies like Walthers. Not long after they took over the Life-Like/P2K brands, they nearly doubled them. Odd, since the locomotives were *exactly* the same. No new tooling, no additional detail parts, etc. Not surprising, they apparently had trouble selling them...and then brought them down to more reasonable levels. I'm glad I found my HO scale NYC E8 when I did :p

Oh, and MR-ing isn't nearly as expensive as restoring an old car. I'm just wrapping up the ridiculously long-term restoration of my 1969 MGB GT. Cost? I don't even want to think about it--even though the body was pretty solid, the panels, paint, and welding costs could have bought a good first-generation Mazda Miata.. "Expensive" is all relative, I guess :)

[blownout cylinder]

reklein

I been lookin at some MRRs from the 50s. Price of the mag was 35 cents. The Varney ads on the back which usually consisted of a photo by John Allen adavertised cars for $1.70 to $2.95 and an engine for around $13.00. Just my ,BILL

AAHHH--But how much was the average wage back then? In calculating the relative expenses and such we never seem to take that wage issue into the equation

[reklein]

I been lookin at some MRRs from the 50s. Price of the mag was 35 cents. The Varney ads on the back which usually consisted of a photo by John Allen adavertised cars for $1.70 to $2.95 and an engine for around $13.00. Just my ,BILL

[blownout cylinder]

cwclark

 One of the reasons it's so expensive is that there really aren't a lot of MRRer's when you look at a global market which goes back to that old supply and demand thing. The less there is of something, the more it's gonna cost. ....chuck

 

Quite true. The issue was always that and the issue adding to this is the " I don' wanna--" scratchbuild gotta have the latest of the latest more expensive--and we'll pay top dollar for something that turns out not to work so they throw it out kind of people--and guys like me buy this cast off--fix the hiccup and 'voila!' it works!!

[B&O1952]

 Actually, It comes down to a couple of things. Resources, patience, and what a person is actually willing to pay for an item. With the internet, hobby stores, and train shows, there are many more avenues for the modeler to utilize. If a guy is willing to model with used items, he can save a bundle of cash that can be used for more expensive items that he may be looking for. I always look for track lots at the train show where I can get a close look at the track. You can get a good deal on rolling stock and structures as well. Most train shows also offer a test track to try locomotives before purchasing if you are looking at used locos. The internet offers you a chance to compare price just about anything you may want. Internet auctions are even better. You can set your price range for an item, and you may just get what you're looking for with a little luck. I won the bid on a brand new P2K B&O F7 with sound and dcc for $58.00 last week.  Patience is a virtue. If you can wait for an item, you may find it for your price. One other thing, compare it to the cost of other hobbies. I have 2 sons who snowboard all winter at a cost of about $700.00 each. Think about what you could buy for your layout for that kind of cash! They also play video games on a new XBOX 360. The games alone run for about $75.00 apiece. Add on the cost of the game system, and a fee to use XBOX live, and you're talking about a pretty expensive hobby.  I guess it's all relative. Btw, they also participate in the model RR project.

[cwclark]

For years, I had to scrape up just enough money to purchase a lot of the poorest quality stuff on the market to keep a small MRR operating. It's always been an expensive hobby even when i started modeling in 1977 a family, house, car and utility payments added to the financial burden. Then one day:

1. The kids left home.

2. the mortgage was paid off.

3. My wife got a decient job.

4. I started making more money at a job i've been at the past 25 years.

Now i can afford the good stuff and plan on spending it all as long as i can on the hobby until i'm disabled or the day i die. Which ever comes first.

   One of the reasons it's so expensive is that there really aren't a lot of MRRer's when you look at a global market which goes back to that old supply and demand thing. The less there is of something, the more it's gonna cost. ....chuck

[blownout cylinder]

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

As for buying trains, I am a bargin hunter, and seldom pay anything near top dollar for the "big" stuff.

That's why I love my second hand/consignment and now fleamarket finds--found all manner of things there--including a 2-8-8-2 Y3 from Walthers Heritage series with DCC/sound for under $60--and the dang things works a charm--heeheehee---and just to add to my fun I fell over a box of 4 used--very little by the look of things--KATO RDC2's. All for a ridiculous price--you think I'm going to pass this up? My shortline has a successful passenger/commuter rail service here!!

[Autobus Prime]

fwright

Costs have sky-rocketed because expectations have sky-rocketed.  The Roundhouse Climax no longer cuts it for me - it's too far away from the prototype.  A 4x8 Plywood Pacific can really only handle 2 locomotives.  Back when locomotives had to be built from kits, that was a reasonable expectation.  Same with track - the rule of thumb was no more than 20 turnouts for a one man layout because of construction and maintenance time.  But RTR (at a price) allows one to build a much bigger, much more complex, and much more complete layout in a reasonable amount of time - again for a price.  As a result, expectations for the average layout have been driven way higher, and so has the price.

fw:

This is a good point.  I think there is an additional factor at work.  The heavily staging-yard dependent model railroads that got the most attention for a while tend to be equipment-hungry, and a lot of that sits idle on staging tracks, unless trains are reused.  This makes things more expensive.  Reusing trains is a good way around this, I think.  Railroads tend to have a lot of similar trains, usually going in one direction.  How different do stack trains or coal drags look, really? 

Moderation is a good thing.  Maybe we can plunk down RTR quickly enough to build a GD Line in a few years, or buy one ready-made, but should we?  Those model railroads take a crew to run, and most of us usually operate solo, or maybe with a friend or two.  No sense having more than we can enjoy.  Too much, and it's not a hobby, but a job. 

Moderation has always been needed, I think, even in earlier years.  Atlas track has been around for more than fifty years, and don't forget Tru-Scale, which was a previous generation's Unitrack.  Even before the war, you had RTR equipment: Lionel!  Hi-rail was a large part of model railroading back then, and the hi-railers were more bent on operation than collection back then.  It's a shame that hi-rail got so little respect from the "scale" mags of the time.  Sometimes it seems like Louis H. Hertz was the only one willing to give hi-railers their due.  At any rate, it was completely possible, even back then, to get "completely carried away...away...away".

 

 

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

blownout cylinder

Sheldon, another comment to yours from Winston Churchill was Lenin's-" the way to destroy the bourgiousie is through taxes and inflation"--or summat.

Barry,

How true, but we should leave it at that before we upset someone or get too far a field of the topic.

As for buying trains, I am a bargin hunter, and seldom pay anything near top dollar for the "big" stuff.

Sheldon

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

Larry,

For many you are so right, they have never decided what they really want or set specific modeling  goals. And that is fine, it is after all just a hobby. I for one have taken a different route. After spending my teenage years in the hobby, as member of a great club where I learned a lot, I then decided what I really wanted to accomplish with model trains.

To that end, I don't "collect" or buy anything just to "have" it, or because it was "famous". I have a theme and plan for my layout and everything purchased is a piece to that puzzle.

So I don't have a glass case containing:

UP Big Boy, GG1, GS4, N&W J, PRR K4, etc, etc. - never owned any of these.

I do have 8 Spectrum 2-8-0's, 6 P2K GP7's, 8 P2K FA1's, 5 Spectrum 4-8-2H's, 2 P2K 2-8-8-2's, 3 Spectrum 2-6-6-2's, 6 or 7 sets of EMD F3's and F7's of various brands, etc, etc, because it makes a believable roster for my RR.

I still buy Athearn rolling stock and upgrade it some, rather than think every car in a 600 car fleet needs to be a $30.00 piece from Kadee or Intermountain or whoever.

My layout is large, 800 sq ft room, but not extremely complex, I have lots of locos and cars, none are $1500 pieces of brass. We all make choices based on our resources.

I don't use DCC because I don't see it as a good value for ME. I don't use sound because it sounds tinny and costs too much - for ME.

But I don't think anything in the hobby is over priced. Some things may be more than I am willing to pay for that item, but so is a BMW.

Sheldon

[blownout cylinder]

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

Make more money or don't buy as many trains. And in either event, stop complaining about it.

"The universal misery of capitalism is the unequal distribution of the blessings, the universal blessing of socialism is the equal distrabution of the misery" - Wiston Churchill

Sheldon, another comment to yours from Winston Churchill was Lenin's-" the way to destroy the bourgiousie is through taxes and inflation"--or summat.

 And Brakie's point works well here--limit the purchases to what you are modeling. A shortline--in my case--can get up to 15 lokes(although in my case the discovery of several lokes in a fleamarket gave me boodles more-- So I'm already finished with the HEAVY PURCHASES. Gee--I just checked --I'm up to 65 lokes---OOOPPS and I spent under $1000cdn for all that---The rolling stock needs no more as I got over 120 hoppers, 90 boxcars, 23 flatcars---and a mixed bag of odd load gondolas and such----got in 2 seperate places for about $300cdn.

The thing I've noticed more recently is that where I'm finding my deals--in fleamarkets and in second hand/consignment shops. A few people also told me --and I've seen this too--that a lot more stuff has shown up on web sites like Kijiji. So what do we make of this? ---HMM

 

[BRAKIE]

Guys,Think of this...

 Build a small or moderate room size size layout,buy 1 or 2 locomotive and say 60 cars..

 

Here you have a short line..Now divide your cars into 3 groups of 20 cars each..Now you can rotate the cars you use..

 Figure up the cost for the basics and you will see the hobby isn't all the expensive.

 The total adds up when we start buying more locomotives and cars then we really need,DCC,Sound and that age old trap of keeping up with other modelers..

 Do you really need that Atlas GP40-2 because Johnny has one? Do you really need that $50.00 automax or are you buying it because they look "cool"?

 Do you really need that 2-10-4 even tho' the largest curve on your layout is 22"?

 Ah,the traps we fall into..

And yes brothers and sisters that WE includes yours truely.

[fwright]

jwhitten

Is it just me or what? (I'm looking for some old-timer perspective here...)

The cost of this hobby just seems astronomically staggering !

It just seems like every single manufacturer is out to put their kids through college on a single hopper car or bag of ground foam.

I'm not complaining that things cost money, people gotta eat-- but it seems pretty ridiculous. And it hasn't always been this way. For example, sometimes when I buy stuff from that big online yard sale place, it'll show up with the original price tags still on the box. For example, I just got through buying a bunch of Shinohara turnouts recently. #6's LH&HR, among others, new old stock... I thought I was getting a deal at $12 bucks each. I see them advertised elsewhere online for $20+ and up. So they get here and I was looking through them and then notice the _original_ price... $1.29, from a _DRUG STORE_ no less !

I understand a lot of things about buying and selling, particularly that things are worth whatever people will pay for them. So I know that's the real answer here-- people have bucks to spend and are willing to spend them even at these prices.

I'm just saying.

(Can I get an amen :)

No, you can't get an amen from me.  You said you were looking for some old-timer perspective here.  I may not be an old-timer, but I'll give my perspective.

First, on the new old stock turnouts.  Usually, when store/shops selling model railroad equipment drop the model railroading aspect or go out of business completely, their remaining stock is put up for sale.  Usually, another LHS buys up the stock - and I'm guessing here - for around the 1st shop's cost or a little less.  It behooves the second shop to buy this stock, both for the potential resale, and to prevent the market from being flooded with fire-sale prices.  I suspect the turnouts were fire sale priced before being sold to the next dealer - I sure don't remember Shinohara turnouts ever retailing for $1.29.

The normal practice is to mark up the just-bought new old stock to a price point somewhat nearer market value to relect the buying and carrying costs of the inventory.  I see examples of this all the time with Campbell and other NOS structure kits, and with Roundhouse kits in particular.  It helps the price if the item is rather difficult to obtain as new production these days (same as on eBay).  If your turnouts had been left at $1.29, I doubt the dealer buying them would have made a profit, and they probably would not have still been there for you to buy.  You still got a good deal from your point of view, and the person buying the stock turned a profit for his efforts.  I just don't see the problem here.

As for putting your or my kids through college on profits from manufacturing model railroad goods - if it was so easy, everybody would be doing it.  But don't believe me.  You have my strongest encouragement to become a model railroad manufacturer.  Why don't we make your first item easy - a decently detailed, properly scaled 15T or 18T Class A Climax (known as a "Black Satchel" by some of our Southern logging friends).  I'll even supply a few pictures.  I chose the Climax because of the lack of visible pistons and drive gear - a small diesel drive will work pretty well.  Make it cute enough, and run decently (on a 15" radius), and you will outsell the Roundhouse caricature.  I'll pay you $200 for it in kit or RTR (kit preferred).  And if you integrate DCC and sound - including the 2 speed Climax transmission - I'll give $350 for it.  If you show me a good pre-production model and evidence of actual production, I'll give you the money as an advance deposit.  Only catch - most of the model has to be made of metal to get enough weight for decent pulling power.  You can use horizontal T or vertical boiler - your choice.  Or expand your market by producing both - in both narrow and standard gauge.

I guess my willingness to pay that kind of money marks me as one who has bucks.  If $40/month for a hobby budget qualifies me as a big spender, so be it.  I am willing to pay a year's worth of hobby funds for one locomotive because I don't collect.  With a layout room size of 7.5 ft by 10 ft, I only need 2-3 standard gauge locos, and the same for the narrow gauge.  I can't be bothered buying locomotives or cars to sit in boxes.  30 cars for both gauges is probably more than enough.  Even if I had my ultimate space (24 ft by 20 ft), double the rolling stock and locomotives is more than I would want/need.

Which leads me back to costs of the hobby.  Costs have sky-rocketed because expectations have sky-rocketed.  The Roundhouse Climax no longer cuts it for me - it's too far away from the prototype.  A 4x8 Plywood Pacific can really only handle 2 locomotives.  Back when locomotives had to be built from kits, that was a reasonable expectation.  Same with track - the rule of thumb was no more than 20 turnouts for a one man layout because of construction and maintenance time.  But RTR (at a price) allows one to build a much bigger, much more complex, and much more complete layout in a reasonable amount of time - again for a price.  As a result, expectations for the average layout have been driven way higher, and so has the price.

my thoughts, your choices

Fred W

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

Bruce,

Based on your view, there is no answer to the OP's question.

The model railroad industry is not responsible for how much disposable income he, you or anyone else has or does not have. They are by no means obligated to lower their prices because someone thinks they are too high. As I and others have suggested, the market will control that.

They are only responsible for making a market competitive product within the current costs of production.

I think we have established that they are doing so.

Nobody "owes" anyone access to this hobby, or even food and shelter in my world view.

Make more money or don't buy as many trains. And in either event, stop complaining about it.

"The universal misery of capitalism is the unequal distribution of the blessings, the universal blessing of socialism is the equal distrabution of the misery" - Wiston Churchill

Sheldon

 

 

[citylimits]

andrechapelon

I was trying to say that price comparisons between what was paid for a packet of Cal-Scale detail parts in 1960 (or any other applicable item of model railway interest) bares little or no relevance to the price paid today for the same item or perhaps if you prefer; a locomotive. Other than perhaps an exercise driven by a person interest to find this out, a direct comparison is not useful at all in pondering a reasonable outcome to the OP's original proposition.

 

Hogwash. The only question that needs answering is whether or not the cost of the hobby RELATIVE to the general cost of living in the past is higher, lower or unchanged. Some things are more expensive and some less. Overall, hobby items are no more expensive than they historically have been. HOWEVER, there is so much more available now than before that we're all like kids in a candy store with a buck to spend on candy. Or, to make the analogy clear, it's as if the candy store back then was a hole in the wall shop, and we're in the midst of a Wal-Mart which sells nothing but candy and we only have the same amount of money to spend on an inflation adjusted basis.

 

You may have noticed in my message that I suggested that the over simplification of adjusted for inflation prices and CPI stats is that we are not, in the speak of busy business executives, operating on a level playing field. There are numerous other factors in existence that affect price comparisons and the perception of what is highly priced and what is not. I gave a few examples of these earlier and they are  germane to this discussion.

 

Why does everyone try to complicate things that are really pretty straight-forward? It's not all that hard to understand. I paid $700 for a plane ticket to New Zealand in 1969. That's $4027 in today's dollars. If I book by Friday, I can get a flight to Auckland on Qantas for $299 each way. By the time you add in all the taxes, that ticket (round trip) will cost me $736 in TODAY's dollars. That $736 equates to $128 in 1969 dollars. That is DIRT CHEAP in comparison. The fact that someone "perceives" that today's $736 is expensive and that Qantas is gouging the poor passenger is irrelevant. You're getting essentially the same service at a $578 discount (an 82% saving when expressed in 1969 dollars). And that's including the taxes and fees that didn't exist 40 years ago.  The fact that someone can't afford to fly to New Zealand now or thinks the ticket price is too high has nothing to do with the relative cost of flying now vs. the cost of flying 40 years ago. It's cheaper now.

 

Andre

 

 

 

 

Hogwash you say! 

 

Well, I don't understand why you can't see that price comparisons - adjusted for inflation, bare no relevance to the question posed by the OP, that being, is this hobby too expensive. I say that the question is subjective and depends on whether you can afford to pay the asking price of what is currently available now or if value can be seen in the prices being asked. So, too expensive for who?

If I am faced with paying real-time prices and for what ever reason I don't have the money to do so, then the items that interest me are too expensive for me to buy even if the result of your inflation adjusted calculations makes them less expensive than they were in 1969 or when ever.

I also don't understand why you would unnecessarily complicate this question by introducing a fat red herring into the argument. I have no problem at all with the figures you produce as a statement of fact, but are they relevant within the context of the Original Post.

 

I have no trouble understanding the point you are making, it's not at all difficult to follow a simple argument regardless of how many times it's repeated. What is difficult to understand is your insistence that your argument does in anyway address the question posed by the OP.

You are arguing along a line as if the question asked by the OP was, is the cost of our hobby more expensive than it was for modelers in the past. Is that what you see as being asked by the OP - because it's not.

 

I don't give a flying fig if the cost of your airfare to New Zealand paid by you in 1969 is relatively more expensive then than the airfare paid today to cover the same journey. Conditions existing in the airline industry at that time were vastly different than they are today - in 1969 it was still considered by many to be a luxury to travel by air. Now international air travel is routine and with specials offered by many airlines - $1.00 ( special conditions apply, needless to say) to fly between Auckland and Christchurch by Virgin Blue, air travel has never been cheaper. Once again though, your reasoning is flawed if you believe that there is within the context of the OP's original proposition a need for this comparison. That was then and this is now. I also can't understand why you can not see that there are many different factors that have a baring on price, enough so that comparing prices from widely different generations are pointless and are not helpful in answering what the OP wanted to discuss. Direct comparisons of this type are of limited interest if they are not germane to the subject of the original posting.

 

I shouldn't have to point out the obvious to you, but there is nowhere stated or implied in any thing I have written in this post that I believe we are the victims of price gouging by QANTAS or anybody else in the business community servicing model railroaders - where did you get that from, it's a little creative, I do believe. 

 

Anyway, I certainly don't want to be the cause of this post being locked or removed by the moderators. So I will not engage with you any further on this topic.

 

We will have to agree to disagree, I'm afraid.

 

Bruce

[blownout cylinder]

andrechapelon

 

Why does everyone try to complicate things that are really pretty straight-forward? It's not all that hard to understand. I paid $700 for a plane ticket to New Zealand in 1969. That's $4027 in today's dollars. If I book by Friday, I can get a flight to Auckland on Qantas for $299 each way. By the time you add in all the taxes, that ticket (round trip) will cost me $736 in TODAY's dollars. That $736 equates to $128 in 1969 dollars. That is DIRT CHEAP in comparison. The fact that someone "perceives" that today's $736 is expensive and that Qantas is gouging the poor passenger is irrelevant. You're getting essentially the same service at a $578 discount (an 82% saving when expressed in 1969 dollars). And that's including the taxes and fees that didn't exist 40 years ago.  The fact that someone can't afford to fly to New Zealand now or thinks the ticket price is too high has nothing to do with the relative cost of flying now vs. the cost of flying 40 years ago. It's cheaper now.

 

I'm thinking that there is a point in this in that there is a perception out there that this hobby is expensive. Where this perception came from is irrelevant. It is how do we address this perception. We did not use inflation calculations until the 90's in most cases--which is ironic considering that during the 80's we saw inflation up here in the upper 'teens/lower twenties percentile range and seen interest rates pushing 20% or more. With money getting tighter in a lot of homes --and with said homes Eloc's going underwater as some of the Case/Schiller studies are saying--and credit lines going out the window, people are just starting to see what happened for the last number of years. It will be time to educate people on how to do hobbies by not mangling what is left of their credit/cash accounts.

And yes,City Limits --my fleamarket finds may be fortuitous--but that becomes part of one's repertoir of hunting/gathering skills. I've only done this type of thing for a few decades---after all---

[blownout cylinder]

citylimits

I have no clue who or what this POD is you mention in your messages - can you give me a clue!

Check PM's

[andrechapelon]

I was trying to say that price comparisons between what was paid for a packet of Cal-Scale detail parts in 1960 (or any other applicable item of model railway interest) bares little or no relevance to the price paid today for the same item or perhaps if you prefer; a locomotive. Other than perhaps an exercise driven by a person interest to find this out, a direct comparison is not useful at all in pondering a reasonable outcome to the OP's original proposition.

 

Hogwash. The only question that needs answering is whether or not the cost of the hobby RELATIVE to the general cost of living in the past is higher, lower or unchanged. Some things are more expensive and some less. Overall, hobby items are no more expensive than they historically have been. HOWEVER, there is so much more available now than before that we're all like kids in a candy store with a buck to spend on candy. Or, to make the analogy clear, it's as if the candy store back then was a hole in the wall shop, and we're in the midst of a Wal-Mart which sells nothing but candy and we only have the same amount of money to spend on an inflation adjusted basis.

 

You may have noticed in my message that I suggested that the over simplification of adjusted for inflation prices and CPI stats is that we are not, in the speak of busy business executives, operating on a level playing field. There are numerous other factors in existence that affect price comparisons and the perception of what is highly priced and what is not. I gave a few examples of these earlier and they are  germane to this discussion.

 

Why does everyone try to complicate things that are really pretty straight-forward? It's not all that hard to understand. I paid $700 for a plane ticket to New Zealand in 1969. That's $4027 in today's dollars. If I book by Friday, I can get a flight to Auckland on Qantas for $299 each way. By the time you add in all the taxes, that ticket (round trip) will cost me $736 in TODAY's dollars. That $736 equates to $128 in 1969 dollars. That is DIRT CHEAP in comparison. The fact that someone "perceives" that today's $736 is expensive and that Qantas is gouging the poor passenger is irrelevant. You're getting essentially the same service at a $578 discount (an 82% saving when expressed in 1969 dollars). And that's including the taxes and fees that didn't exist 40 years ago.  The fact that someone can't afford to fly to New Zealand now or thinks the ticket price is too high has nothing to do with the relative cost of flying now vs. the cost of flying 40 years ago. It's cheaper now.

 

Andre

 

 

 

 

[citylimits]

blownout cylinder

Again--if one wants to get good bang for the buck--look into different venues--as I blitherred about in an earlier post here I went to a fleamarket of all things-a place for second hand antiquey things--and found a whole bunch --more like 14 locos,9 with DCC/sound--for under $375cdn! So I say that one can do this stuff without bashing in their credit card or wallet---try to imagine the possibilities---unless you want to help certain POD's along---

I think that your canny purchase at a fleamarket is fortuitous and shows how taking advantage of opportunities such as this can save money. This example has been good for you, but at $375.00 for 14 locomotives - about $26 a pop, it would be a purchase that may seldom be repeated. So well done, mate!

By comparison. no matter how good the bargain is, it would be an insurmountable task for me to come up with $375.00 to laydown for a purchase that was not planned and budgeted for in advance. So while your extraordinary good fortune is to be applauded and does to some extent show that a fully equipt locomotive model can be had at a very reasonable price reducing the cost of the hobby for you at that time it is not always a repeatable experience.

On the other hand, and from my personal point of view, buying 14 locomotives of any other type than those that were operated by the road I am modeling, would at any price be a wasted purchase - that is, unless I was to move them on at a profit thus reducing my modeling costs overall. Even then, I would still have to find the puchase price to be part of such a deal. Once again it all comes down to what financia recourses you have as to whether you can take advantage of such good deals.

I have no clue who or what this POD is you mention in your messages - can you give me a clue!

Bruce

[blownout cylinder]

TMarsh

Autobus Prime

I feel that nobody is going to read after my first paragraph.

I did too.

I did three----so there----

[TMarsh]

Autobus Prime

I feel that nobody is going to read after my first paragraph.

I did too.

[blownout cylinder]

Autobus Prime

I feel that such of this equipment that remains, like Bowser, is ignored not because it lacks potential, but because it isn't being promoted - it's incredible how many articles on Bowser-modification you see in magazines up until the mid-90s, to get prototypes that still aren't being made and never will be, except in brass.

I feel that nobody is going to read after my first paragraph.

(Whatever happened to Bowser RTR, anyway?)

 

The usual happened--we'll push what sells and if that means the $$$RTR then fine. Bowser's somehow fell out of favour---(?!?!)

[Autobus Prime]

CTValleyRR

So how about we sum up 5 pages of posts in a few short lines:

1) The hobby doesn't have to be expensive.  If you use the "home" or "alternative" methods rather than going out for a retail hobby product.  I mean, you can buy pre-made benchwork for $50 per section, or you can make it yourself for about $10 for parts plus your own sweat (mental and physical).

2) While there is some initial outlay to get enough track and locos to get some kind of layout up and running, most of the expenditure is spread out over time, pretty much as long as the modeller can stand.  Most of us can budget $10 (or whatever) out of each paycheck to set aside for hobby stuff.

3) I've seen a lot of people throwing numbers around, but few references to the Consumer Price Index, which is the official measure of the change in prices in our country. ...something that cost $100 in Jan 1970 should cost $459 today... and I just don't see that kind of price increase.

CTV:

I think it's still kicking...at least, I think I can add a few things.

Re. creative solutions: I am 100% in agreement that these exist, because I collect them and use every one I can find. I do feel there is a great and immediate need for more promotion of these methods, most of which are practically lost down the 20-year memory hole, and languish somewhere in a back-issue on some dusty shelf.  The easy retort is, "So, go do it".  I will - as soon as I prove out my methods enough to do so.  But somebody must be ready to publish!

Re. inflation: I think 1970 is a fairly poor choice for comparison.  Remember, inflation did a huge and abnormal KERFLUMP in the 70s.  I believe that is the proper economic term.  It was relatively steady before and afterward. This tends to skew figures; we assume a steady rise, which there wasn't.

After much back-issue browsing and rumination, I have come to the conclusion that there was a time, in the early 90s, when the popular, reasonably good "hobby" grade merchandise had become quite affordable.

Looking in the 1994 RMC I have in front of me, I see, for instance, an Athearn F7 for ~$19 and a Bowser K4 for $75 kit and $125 RTR, at Trainland.  Using the AIER calculator, these equal a $28 F7, a $110 kit K4, and a $208 RTR K4. Oddly enough, Bowser isn't too far off this, but today's equivalent blue-box F7 is something like $40.  It leads me to wonder - what happened?  You can see that, using the cost of living as a benchmark, "inflation" can't be the answer.

I feel that this "period of affordability", in which the most popular equipment was a surprisingly good value for the low price asked, is at the root of most dissatisfaction with prices today.

I feel that such of this equipment that remains, like Bowser, is ignored not because it lacks potential, but because it isn't being promoted - it's incredible how many articles on Bowser-modification you see in magazines up until the mid-90s, to get prototypes that still aren't being made and never will be, except in brass.

I feel that nobody is going to read after my first paragraph.

(Whatever happened to Bowser RTR, anyway?)

 

[TMarsh]

Is this hobby more or less expensive than ever? Just depends on how you look at it. A gallon of gas is supposedly cheaper now than in remembrance however I don't see it any easier to purchase it. All of the price comparisons don't amount to doodley squat because it's up to the individuals pocket book as to what is expensive and what isn't. It's an age old, non-ending non-answerable question. One thing is constant. It will be more expensive to restore an old Jaguar or a 5 bedroom 3 bath mansion, than a Camaro or a 2 bedroom 1 bath bungalow. And then each will vary within a persons geographic location. If you are building a basement size layout it's going to be more costly than a 4X8. Most people I know of do not go out and buy their entire fleet, all the scenery and all the structures at once. But then again, judging by her trips to the craft store, I don't think my wife bought all the yarn or needle thingy's she was ever going to use. She has complained however about the prices as to the way they used to be so it's not just MRR that has gotten more costly. Kits as a rule are cheaper than RTR's. Scratchbuilding supplies are cheaper than structure kits and we don't even need to go into scenery. There are countless ways to "save" money. You just have to decide what you want to spend your money on and what you want to save on. And for some of us, what we have to buy and what we can save some money on. I don't think it is a cheap hobby, nor do I think it ever will be (or ever has been). One thing you must keep in mind when calling this hobby expensive, and that is...compared to what? Model cars? Boats? Fishing? You must take into consideration that MRR is not just buying a $15.00 car kit and painting it with some paint and using supplies you have bought before. You are building many, many, many things to achieve what is called one thing. When put in proportion it is not overly expensive. Now if you will excuse me, I must leave and take out a second mortgage on my house. I plan on doing some more things to the layout.

[blownout cylinder]

citylimits

Some models today are way too expensive for me to buy and so is the cost of equipping my modest fleet of locomotives for DCC and sound. That is a fact! However some guys with a heap of change or limitless credit can go out and equip a much larger roster than mine in one purchase - that is probably factual as well. I interpret too expensive, in the OP's question to be relative to days hobby experience and in direct proportion to the amount of money I can access to buy what I want/need. Other than amassing a large collection of belly button lint which is cost neutral, most hobbies today are expensive - but too expensive - only if today's prices make this hobby inaccessible by acting as a barrier to people wanting to enter the hobby or making existing hobbyists even more selective than they are today.

 

Again--if one wants to get good bang for the buck--look into different venues--as I blitherred about in an earlier post here I went to a fleamarket of all things-a place for second hand antiquey things--and found a whole bunch --more like 14 locos,9 with DCC/sound--for under $375cdn! So I say that one can do this stuff without bashing in their credit card or wallet---try to imagine the possibilities---unless you want to help certain POD's along---

[OntarioTodd]

 Today was a good Model Railroad bargain day for me. Answering a Kijiji ad I picked up 12 snap switches (two still new in package), a box full of nickel silver track (including 3 still sealed Atlas packages of track), a model of a freight station, a nice 40 foot CN boxcar with Kadees, a large box of trees, a curved tunnel that is very well built and will work nicely on my layout for $80. I then picked three milk crates full of mint MR magazines going back to 1970 for free. All this will keep me busy for quite a while!

Todd 

[citylimits]

andrechapelon

As the man once said, there are  lies, *** lies and statistics - or something like that. Statistics work on paper but they are cold detail - they stand alone and give no credence whatsoever to the many other factors that must be considered in addressing the OP's original proposition. He asked about the "hobby" not just examples of the relative costs of a locomotive in the 1960's and the cost of the same or similar model today.

 

Since a locomotive is probably the single most expensive item a model railroader would purchase, it's a logical place to start. The OP's original example was Shinohara turnouts.  I could go through every 35-50 year old MR I have and run a [censored]load of prices through an inflation calculator (e.g. Cal-Scale wanted $.85 for a pair of #260 number boards in 1962, they're listed at $4.40 at Bowser's site and the inflation adjusted 1962 price equals $5.94) but it wouldn't matter one whit to to anyone who starts out fully convinced he's getting ripped off. La Belle's 1905 coach kit (at $5.95) cost the current equivalent of $41.60 in 1962 and the identical item today is actually priced at $32.75. My source is the August, 1962 MR.

 

 

Andre

 

 

 

Andre, I think that you may have missed the point that I was trying to make in my long winded dissertation.

OK, so I used the word locomotive in my message, but I could have just have easily used any other example of a model or kit or detail part, my point was not confined to just locomotives - perhaps I didn't make that clear enough.

 

I was trying to say that price comparisons between what was paid for a packet of Cal-Scale detail parts in 1960 (or any other applicable item of model railway interest) bares little or no relevance to the price paid today for the same item or perhaps if you prefer; a locomotive. Other than perhaps an exercise driven by a person interest to find this out, a direct comparison is not useful at all in pondering a reasonable outcome to the OP's original proposition.

 

You may have noticed in my message that I suggested that the over simplification of adjusted for inflation prices and CPI stats is that we are not, in the speak of busy business executives, operating on a level playing field. There are numerous other factors in existence that affect price comparisons and the perception of what is highly priced and what is not. I gave a few examples of these earlier and they are  germane to this discussion.

 

What we are addressing here is not if prices now are too high compared to prices paid in an early period of time, but instead the discussion is: "Cost of MR Hobby too Expensive !?!?." That infers the question being asked relates to today's prices and not those of several decades past. The answer must always be subjective relative to today's buying conditions, which were, as I've mentioned earlier, much different than they were in some decades past. That means the hobby as a whole and not just its commponant parts.

 

Some models today are way too expensive for me to buy and so is the cost of equipping my modest fleet of locomotives for DCC and sound. That is a fact! However some guys with a heap of change or limitless credit can go out and equip a much larger roster than mine in one purchase - that is probably factual as well. I interpret too expensive, in the OP's question to be relative to days hobby experience and in direct proportion to the amount of money I can access to buy what I want/need. Other than amassing a large collection of belly button lint which is cost neutral, most hobbies today are expensive - but too expensive - only if today's prices make this hobby inaccessible by acting as a barrier to people wanting to enter the hobby or making existing hobbyists even more selective than they are today.

 

Bruce

[blownout cylinder]

citylimits

Retail commerce is comprised now of selling features - added value -the more features a model offers the bigger the cost to the buyer.

The more you are prepared to do yourself then the less you will be paying some manufacture to do the same thing for you. Also in the modelers world of today there are far greater opportunities to be relieved of the contents of your pocket-book. An example being Sound and DCC - decoders, sound chips,  these are merely an enhancement rather than being nessesary for your layout to function and can add many hundreds of dollars to the hobby.

 

You can make something that is unique or road specific while the highly detailed big ticket item is more generic and possibly still needs to be fiddled about with. Brass models are mostly the exception and are expensive when bought new.

 

Model building does still offers opportunities to enjoy our hobby and without resorting to buying every darn thing ever made. Many modeling skills used in the past will probably become lost as there are becoming less opportunities to learn these skills these days.

You can spend a kings ransom on your hobby if you can afford to do that or you can organise your hobby in a different way that involves the modeler in more than just spending money.

 

On the other hand, it may well be that RTR can allow a future train modeler an easier access to the hobby than would otherwise be available if scratch building was the only game in town.

That is the other way of getting bigger bang for the buck--it is another way to get into the hobby. But then again--more companies are getting out of that part of the market--witness Bowser--and some of the effects thereof--

citylimits

On the other hand, it may well be that RTR can allow a future train modeler an easier access to the hobby than would otherwise be available if scratch building was the only game in town.

 

Is the cost of MR Hobby too expensive? Well yes, it can be, but it doesn't have to be that way. All these branded products available today offer quick gratification, but are not cheap. Like in many other situations, and after determining if you can afford the asking price, the cost of some item or other must represent good value for the money spent.

 

Cost of MR Hobby too Expensive !?!? Another answer is yes, it is too expensive if it precludes people from entering our hobby or even fellow modelers having to abandon the hobby for the same reason.

 

And confirming one of the canards of a certain so called POD(Prophet Of Doom).

[andrechapelon]

As the man once said, there are  lies, *** lies and statistics - or something like that. Statistics work on paper but they are cold detail - they stand alone and give no credence whatsoever to the many other factors that must be considered in addressing the OP's original proposition. He asked about the "hobby" not just examples of the relative costs of a locomotive in the 1960's and the cost of the same or similar model today.

 

Since a locomotive is probably the single most expensive item a model railroader would purchase, it's a logical place to start. The OP's original example was Shinohara turnouts.  I could go through every 35-50 year old MR I have and run a [censored]load of prices through an inflation calculator (e.g. Cal-Scale wanted $.85 for a pair of #260 number boards in 1962, they're listed at $4.40 at Bowser's site and the inflation adjusted 1962 price equals $5.94) but it wouldn't matter one whit to to anyone who starts out fully convinced he's getting ripped off. La Belle's 1905 coach kit (at $5.95) cost the current equivalent of $41.60 in 1962 and the identical item today is actually priced at $32.75. My source is the August, 1962 MR.

 

Someone could waste their time going through back issues of MR until the cows come home running price comparisons on every item imaginable and it isn't going to convince the complainers that they're not being robbed blind. Nothing will. No amount of research, fact checking, and inflation calculation is going to change the mind of someone who is convinced from the get-go that he's some kind of victim.

 

When I first started out looking into complaints of excessive prices, I didn't start out with the pre-conceived notion that the complainers were wrong, but out of simple curiosity. Nothing I've seen indicates to me that overall pricing is out of line with what used to be. PERIOD. Sure, there's individual variance, but overall, things are NOT overpriced.

 

 If Shinohara turnouts are "too expensive", hand lay your bloody turnouts as well as the rest of your track. If a fleet of diesel units is too expensive, downsize to a branchline where you don't "need" as many units. If you want to build a layout that requires 50-60 locomotives and hundreds of cars, it's going to cost you, even if you scratchbuild everything like Carl Appel did for his OO scale Norfolk & Ohio (see November, 1958 MR).

 

I'm a retiree. My income's pretty much fixed and I don't either feel I'm getting ripped off, nor am I about to leave the hobby because it's become "too expensive", the blatherings of our resident Prophet O'Doom notwithstanding. Grow the [censored] up, people. You're not going to get Tiffany diamonds at Faux GemsR'US cubic zirconia prices, ever.

 

Andre

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[citylimits]

As the man once said, there are  lies, *** lies and statistics - or something like that. Statistics work on paper but they are cold detail - they stand alone and give no credence whatsoever to the many other factors that must be considered in addressing the OP's original proposition. He asked about the "hobby" not just examples of the relative costs of a locomotive in the 1960's and the cost of the same or similar model today.

The world of decades past is a very different place to the decade we live in today.

Other factors - the way we do things, buying patterns, the cost of credit, time pressures, demands on your income, availability of raw materials and the desire to use these for modeling are all factors in determining the true cost of our hobby.

 

Retail commerce is comprised now of selling features - added value -the more features a model offers the bigger the cost to the buyer.

The more you are prepared to do yourself then the less you will be paying some manufacture to do the same thing for you. Also in the modelers world of today there are far greater opportunities to be relieved of the contents of your pocket-book. An example being Sound and DCC - decoders, sound chips,  these are merely an enhancement rather than being nessesary for your layout to function and can add many hundreds of dollars to the hobby.

 

You can make something that is unique or road specific while the highly detailed big ticket item is more generic and possibly still needs to be fiddled about with. Brass models are mostly the exception and are expensive when bought new.

 

Model building does still offers opportunities to enjoy our hobby and without resorting to buying every darn thing ever made. Many modeling skills used in the past will probably become lost as there are becoming less opportunities to learn these skills these days.

You can spend a kings ransom on your hobby if you can afford to do that or you can organise your hobby in a different way that involves the modeler in more than just spending money.

 

On the other hand, it may well be that RTR can allow a future train modeler an easier access to the hobby than would otherwise be available if scratch building was the only game in town.

 

Is the cost of MR Hobby too expensive? Well yes, it can be, but it doesn't have to be that way. All these branded products available today offer quick gratification, but are not cheap. Like in many other situations, and after determining if you can afford the asking price, the cost of some item or other must represent good value for the money spent.

 

Cost of MR Hobby too Expensive !?!? Another answer is yes, it is too expensive if it precludes people from entering our hobby or even fellow modelers having to abandon the hobby for the same reason.

 

Bruce

 

[IVRW]

The general consensus I think is the hobby is expensive but we like it and we are willing to pay for it.

[nw_fan]

 Here's my take on things and how they have affected me.
I really started with the hobby in the late 80's.
I am primarily interested in N&W steam.
Back then, I could get an N&W 4-8-4 or a 2-8-8-2 or a  2-6-6-4 for $800-2000 in brass.
And there wasn't much info available to me about re-gearing them, etc... if I needed to do that.  And research! Heck, that was barely even a speck on the radar at any price.  Books and pictures were few and far between.
 
Today, I can jump on the internet and find 1000+ pictures of any of the above engine classes.
I can order the engines online for $300 tops, usually less.  They come with sound, or I can add it.
I can run them together, without derailments and/or fancy wiring setups.
Remember buying wire by the 1000's of feet? I do. I wired a club layout with the help of 2 others that was in the shape of an "F" and 42 feet wide, bu 90 feet tall.  Can you imagine how much "fun" it was to wire blocks and tortoises and lighting?  It was expensive, too.
 
Back then, modeling the N&W railway in the 1950's was only a half-a$$ed attempt on my part.  I couldn't afford it.  Now I have all the major locomotives of the N&W, and several of many classes, to boot.  So, is it really more expensive in the long run? Or do we just have many, many more options to spend money on, so the funds get diluted a bit?

I know I am getting more "bang for my buck" today than ever.
 

[CTValleyRR]

So how about we sum up 5 pages of posts in a few short lines:

1) The hobby doesn't have to be expensive.  If you use the "home" or "alternative" methods rather than going out for a retail hobby product.  I mean, you can buy pre-made benchwork for $50 per section, or you can make it yourself for about $10 for parts plus your own sweat (mental and physical).

2) While there is some initial outlay to get enough track and locos to get some kind of layout up and running, most of the expenditure is spread out over time, pretty much as long as the modeller can stand.  Most of us can budget $10 (or whatever) out of each paycheck to set aside for hobby stuff.

3) I've seen a lot of people throwing numbers around, but few references to the Consumer Price Index, which is the official measure of the change in prices in our country.  Contrary to some assertions, while the late 80s and early 90s saw some steady growth, the average was only 4.2% per year for the ten years from Dec 1985 to Dec 1995.  Now, admittedly, you can pretty much select a CPI that fits your particular argument from the Bureau of Labor Statistics, but the overall change in CPI (all commodities, not seasonally adjusted) from Jan 1970 to Jan 2009 is 458.6%... in other words, qualitative improvements aside, something that cost $100 in Jan 1970 should cost $459 today... and I just don't see that kind of price increase.  True, wage increases haven't generally kept up with this trend, so your "purchasing power" may be less today, but that has nothing to do with our hobby.

So RIP to the poor horse.

[BRAKIE]

Barry,Today those 2-8-0s go between $150.00(poor) to $450.00(mint)..

 

How I wish I kept all my brass steamers-I ended up with 7.

[blownout cylinder]

BRAKIE

When I was 14 ('62) I was making $1.65/hr working for a lawn care company during summer school break..BTW..That was the first and last time I worked for such a company even tho' the pay was good.

I bought my first brass steamer (a United Santa Fe 1950 class 2-8-0) out of my first check and still had some money left--not much..

When my wife started collecting Quilts back in the eighties she could pick them up in yard sales for a couple of bucks a piece. She recently sold one of those same quilts for $1100cdn.

When I see what a brass USRA 2-8-0 goes for I see collectors market. When one sees it in that sense we can see that the register/categories we use may throw us a loop. Who, back in the seventies for example, would have thought that, in some areas, collector markets would have taken off the way it has?

Maybe the collector market--being a secondary market --might come down, hence making a bit of a breathing space in MRR'ing. One never really knows----- 

[BRAKIE]

ham99

When I built my first layout in the 60's, an Athearn blue box car cost me a bit over two hours wages.  Now an Atlas box car with operating knuckle couplers costs me slightly over an hour's wages.  Don't dwell on old sticker prices -- the economy is changing too fast for that.  Compare earning power and see the bargain model railroading gives you. 

 

When I was 14 ('62) I was making $1.65/hr working for a lawn care company during summer school break..BTW..That was the first and last time I worked for such a company even tho' the pay was good.

I bought my first brass steamer (a United Santa Fe 1950 class 2-8-0) out of my first check and still had some money left--not much..

[ham99]

When I built my first layout in the 60's, an Athearn blue box car cost me a bit over two hours wages.  Now an Atlas box car with operating knuckle couplers costs me slightly over an hour's wages.  Don't dwell on old sticker prices -- the economy is changing too fast for that.  Compare earning power and see the bargain model railroading gives you. 

[BRAKIE]

Midnight said:

Model railroading is not, in and of itself, an expensive hobby.  It can get that way if you follow the MR magazine "Dream It, Plan it, Buy It" mantra. (A gallon of white glue diluted with water is substantially cheaper than WS official "Scenic Cement")
------------------------------------

Absolutely!

Of course MR (like all magazines) push the advertise merchandise,gimmicks and other items that one doesn't really need to enjoy this rather simple hobby..And contrary to the "experts" and "expert wannabes" this is a simple and basic hobby that is filled with overkill..

 

It never fails to amaze me how many modelers fall into that trap.

[blownout cylinder]

There is a whale of a difference between sailing in a 15' day cruiser and going for a 60' Endeavour that is capable of ocean crossings. One CAN make things very expensive for themselves, if they so desire. But then, the fellow doing this is doing it by choice.

We can do this by choice as well--by thinking through what we are looking for. Not all lines need the latest Big Boy or what have you. My short line has now all the switchers--such as the RS2's and RS3's I've been getting through second hand shops and fleamarkets---and roadswitchers like the RS11's and such through same sources--we need. Same for rolling stock--no need to get the best of the best all the time---or as previous post said ---why get WS Scenic glue when good ol' school glue watered down has worked so well all this time?

[Midnight Railroader]

jwhitten

Is it just me or what? (I'm looking for some old-timer perspective here...)

Forgive me for not reading all the other comments.

Model railroading is not, in and of itself, an expensive hobby.  It can get that way if you follow the MR magazine "Dream It, Plan it, Buy It" mantra. (A gallon of white glue diluted with water is substantially cheaper than WS official "Scenic Cement")

If, however, you do things yourself, the hobby is a lot less expensive.

Want an expensive hobby? Try racing, where one speedshop's sign I saw said,"Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go?"

 

[andrechapelon]

willy6

I found this Walthers 1979 reference manual at a antique store.First of all the "Walthers" reference manual was priced @ $5.00 and had 384 pages. Back in 1979 an Athearn Penn Central 40' BB boxcar was $2.25. An Athearn SD 9 powered was $18.98,WS ballast was$1.39 (7oz.), Atlas brass track was $1.80 for 6 9" straights,flextrack was $1.40 nickel silver each,Kadee #5's were $2.20 and S/H was $1.00. I can't calculate the inflation rate to see if these were good prices.

2009 equivalent prices

Ref. Man: $14.54

Box car kit (note: horn hook couplers): $6.54

SD9: $55.20

Bureau of Labor Statistics Inflation calculator: http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl 

Andre

 

 

[Buildy]

http://www.westegg.com/inflation/

 

Inflation calculator.

 

Only goes up to 2007,but still pretty interesting to run the numbers.

[willy6]

I found this Walthers 1979 reference manual at a antique store.First of all the "Walthers" reference manual was priced @ $5.00 and had 384 pages. Back in 1979 an Athearn Penn Central 40' BB boxcar was $2.25. An Athearn SD 9 powered was $18.98,WS ballast was$1.39 (7oz.), Atlas brass track was $1.80 for 6 9" straights,flextrack was $1.40 nickel silver each,Kadee #5's were $2.20 and S/H was $1.00. I can't calculate the inflation rate to see if these were good prices.

 

[Dakota Northern]

Yes, MRing is getting pricey.  I just bought two cheaper locos, Bachmann, like two for $26.  They are good machines,and pull well.  Watch for the bargains.  I also have a dozen extra Locos, several dozen extra pieces of rolling stock, extra track and turnouts.  What do you say!  Let get those on Ebay or to a consignment shelf?  I clean my shelves, you get the good deals, bid only what you can afford.  Actually my hobby shop sells on consignment, I will let him make a couple of bucks and spead the word about the hobby.

[OntarioTodd]

 I've just gotten back into the hobby. It can be expensive if you let it however thanks to Ebay, Kijiji and flea markets I have been getting great deals on many MR items. I bought a like new Digitrax Zephyr complete for $100, a bunch of nicely weathered Athearn freight cars for $9.99 and a huge box of Atlas silver track for $11.00 on eBay. Tomorrow I'm visiting a fellow who advertised on Kijiji who has a bunch of Atlas turnouts as well as other items cheap. I met a fellow at a swap meet last week who offered milk crates full of past issues of Model Railroader magazine for free! Speaking of the swap meet I bought a Proto GP7 that runs like new for 20 bucks! I also bought a brand new undecorated Proto 2000 with DCC and sound for $109 CDN (about $89U.S). Searching for deals is about as fun as building the layout! If you want expensive, get into antique cars. That's my other hobby and if I spent the same money on model railroading that I've spent on the old Pontiac I'd have one helluva layout!

 Todd

 

[IRONROOSTER]

Expensive is relative.  I've had years where all I bought was a couple of magazine subscriptions and years where I bought a brass locomotive and other goodies. 

Big deal.  I spend what I can afford on the hobby and have more kits than I'll probably build, a stash of scratchbuilding stuff and parts that may never get used up, and more RTR than I can fit on the layout. 

I do this hobby for fun and fun it has been for 35+ years.  With a little luck I'll get another 25-35 years in.  But my enjoyment won't be measured by what I spend, but by what I do in the hobby - building, running, reading, researching, planning and even talking about it. (ps the last one is free.)

Enjoy - I always do!

Paul

[cisco1]

For those too young to remember, there was a time before the internet and all the other modern marvels when we struggled with brass rail, oversize flanges, and a very limited supply of almost everything.  Wouldn't EVER want to go back to the old days! To quote Bill & Ted: "The best place to be is here, the best time to be is now." 

[blownout cylinder]

Well just today, my wife and I went to a few fleamarkets including one that we heard seemed to be having a clearout of one sort or another --I came out with 3 Proto N SW8's, 3 Proto Alco RS2's, a couple of Bachmann FM H16-44's, aWalthers-Heritage USRA 0-8-0 and 4 KATO RDC2's. Most barely used, DCC with sound and all for a little under $375cdn with our dear GST and all that. The empire is growing!!

[blownout cylinder]

andrechapelon

If I may be so bold as to suggest a name for such a SIG, why not call it "Kvetch 22"?

Andre

My dad used to get knocked on the head with a rolled up newspaper for jokes like that!!LOL!!

[blownout cylinder]

Paul3

BHirschi,
You'd be hardpressed to determine which SD35 you're looking at comparing the 1979 version to the 2009 version?  Did you happen to notice the new gearing?  The new, thinner handrails?  The see-through roof fans?  The dozen lift rings?  The dozen grabirons?  The cab shades, drop steps, the cut levers, and air hoses?  The brake piping and sand lines on the trucks?  How about the road specific horns and bells?  Or the realistic lighting effects vs. the single bulb?  Heck, the entire loco could be all new tooling for all we know, and probably is considering the SDP35's and the high nose versions are the same price as the basic version.

 

Aye--and there is the rub. Everytime there is an improvement up goes the price--hence my original comment regarding what I euphemistically called the R&D line on a company budget--and of course it gets recovered on a per unit cost basis.

And of course BHirschle will come up with the inflation calc because whether we like it or not--that goes up as well

So OOPS to this debate--until something monstrous like DEFLATION shows up we'll just have to live with it by hunkering down and looking for deals--which I got an armload of---heeheehee

[wjstix]

 John Allen, when asked how much money he spent on his layout, would say he figured he spent about the same money on it as he would have spent on smoking if he were a 2-pack a day smoker.

You have to think of it partly as expense divided by time. I just picked up a craftsman's kit for about $40, and I suspect it's going to be a fairly slow process since 1. I'm a little rusty on wood kits and 2. I want to be sure it's done right...so it might take 40 hours start to finish, meaning it cost me $1 an hour. Compared to other things you could do, that's pretty cheap.

Today's economy also makes it a good time to learn new skills. I hear people complain about how expensive Preiser figures are sometimes. Well, ya, if you buy only the pre-dec ones they're like $1 each in HO. If you buy the undec ones they work out to like 5 cents each. Course you have to take the time to paint them yourself, but if you do you're stretching out your hobby money and your time.  

 

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Any answer for a question like this is sorta like the story of the five blind men touching the elephant and each describing what they think they are feeling, but each is not only wrong, but describing something that is totally different from what the others are describing.

The hobby is expensive... The hobby isn't expensive.

 

[andrechapelon]

Steamage:

This hobby doesn't have to cost big dollars to have fun.

No, it doesn't. However, complaining about the price of hobby items costs even less than that. Judging from the amount of kvetching that I see about the cost of the hobby, there ought to be a SIG (Special Interest Group) for those whose real hobby is complaining about about the cost of the hobby.

If I may be so bold as to suggest a name for such a SIG, why not call it "Kvetch 22"?

Andre

 

 

 

[BHirschi]

Paul:

'K, we can disagree without being disagreeable. And it's not always you, but it does seem that every time I state an opinion on this board, it quickly degenerates into a flame war. Granted, I can be opinionated, but it also seems often my words get twisted and used against me. Finally, what bothers me most is when what was a good (if somewhat lively) discussion gets shut down by the moderators because too many people seem to be getting upset and talking past each other instead of to each other.

That said, I will grant you the old SD35 growled a bit. I guess in 1979, that's what passed for a sound system. It never bothered me much, and never seemed to affect the operation of the locomotive. Fact was, that SD35 was hands down the best locomotive I had during my earlier modeling years, and if I get half a chance, I'm going to buy another one (the old one, not the new one). I can detail it myself, again, buying and adding parts as budget permits.

Basically, I'm able to set aside about $20-40 a paycheck for modeling purchases, so I have to prioritize. The Jacksonville Train Show happily coincided with the arrival of my tax refund, so I was able to pick up an undecorated Proto 2000 E6 for $45. I'm now in the process of buying detail parts for it, again, a few at a time. Once I have all the parts in hand, I'll superdetail it and paint it as SCL No. 509. I'm putting a little extra aside from each check in the hopes of paying for the new BLI Blueline E7 I've got reserved when it comes out in November (which is what I was referring to when I talked about one locomotive blowing my modeling budget for the year). Those two locomotives will be the sum total of my SCL passenger motive power fleet.

As for the SCL freight engines, the fleet will be made up mainly of Athearn Blue Box U33Bs (which were actually models of U36Bs, which SCL had in abundance, especially here in Florida). If I can find them cheap, I'll also throw in a GP35, 38 and/or 40 or two, as well as a GP7 or 9 for local freights and, if I get lucky, that old Atlas SD35 (and maybe an Athearn SD45 dummy to go with it).

And who knows? Five years from now, when some of the rich guys who bought them get bored with them, I'll be able to pick up an Intermountain SCL U18B or two cheap at the train show in Jax!

Bill

[Paul3]

Bill,
I didn't realize that three times out of 20-some posts constituted "every time".  I've had debates with probably hundreds of people on this and several other forums & groups for well over 10 years.  Believe me, what we have both done in our debates on this forum is so benign it barely qualifies as a disagreement.  Please note I'm not screaming, swearing, launching personal attacks...nothing of the sort.  I think we can have a disagreement without being disagreeable.  'K?

If you post a statement, and I say "You're wrong," it doesn't mean I think "you're an idiot", I just think you're wrong...nothing more.

You did say the Atlas SD35 has more detail, but you said it in a depreciative way ("...with a few more details...", and "Atlas has slapped on a few more details...").  In fact, Atlas added many detail parts, etc.

I have one of the old SD35's, and the gearing is much better these days, and much quieter.  The old ones used to growl (not as bad as Athearn, but still...).

Paul A. Cutler III
*******************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*******************

[jwhitten]

 

steamage

jwhitten

steamage

Example of detailing swap meet models: Flat Cars by the Dozen

 

 

that's a cool site. Thanks for the link. Do you know of any others like that?

 

Again, very nice!

I'd like to build operating coal and gravel on my layout. Now that I've seen that site, maybe I will :)

 

Here are a few more cheep modeling projects:

Operating HO Gravel Dump Cars, with Movie!

Upgreading Older Freight Cars

This hobby doesn't have to cost big dollars to have fun.

[tatans]

Noticing people comparing other hobbies to MR, do they not forget just how expensive those hobbies are? old cars, boats, golf, heavy drinking. if they compare cars expenses at $20,000.00  (or such) a year over to MR, and they spend more or less the same on MR, thats still a massive amount of money, then you get the guy who spends ONLY $10,000 and complains the hobby is too costly. From the forums of past the amounts that many MR's spend on the hobby is in my words astronomical, because many MR's have unlimited supplies of money, they make the tragic mistake in assuming that if they have lots of cash, everyone else does also, sorry it just ain't true. Yes this CAN be a very expensive hobby if you have the cash, but lot's are on the mooch and hope the others keep selling all their castoffs so we can continue the hobby without thinking that MR is a contest to see how much money can be spent on the hobby. got any brass track you want to get rid of???( the cry of the "other" model railroaders)

[steamage]

jwhitten

steamage

Example of detailing swap meet models: Flat Cars by the Dozen

 

 

that's a cool site. Thanks for the link. Do you know of any others like that?

Here are a few more cheep modeling projects:

Operating HO Gravel Dump Cars, with Movie!

Upgreading Older Freight Cars

This hobby doesn't have to cost big dollars to have fun.

[andrechapelon]

At the age of 14(1962) I bought my first brass steamer as could the average factory worker...I am 61 and can't afford brass..

 

What's wrong with that picture?

Not a thing. Japan priced itself out of the brass market as its median income rose to rough parity with the US. Then the Koreans took over. Korea's wage level has risen considerably since the late 70's/early 80's.  The cheap brass from Japan in the late 50's/early 60's was an aberration. Had Japan been as relatively developed in comparison to the US then as they are today, there never would have been a PFM, MB Austin, Max Gray, Westside, etc.

I also bought my first brass steamer in the early 60's. It cost me the equivalent of $230 in today's dollars. However, compared to today's brass, it was downright primitive and although it was based on a prototype, it was generic in that it just represented the general look of its prototype. With modern brass, you can get really highly detailed models that are correct for specific periods in their prototype history. That being said, I don't buy brass nor do I envy those who can pony up 4 figures for a single copy.

Andre

 

[BHirschi]

jwhitten

BHirschi

I'm managing my MR budget by buying as much as I can at train shows, from the online yard sale site mentioned elsewhere, and -- when I can find a bargain on something I need -- from eBay.

Bill

 

 

ebay IS the online yard sale I was alluding to :)

jwhitten:

Sorry, I thought you were alluding to HO Yardsale on Yahoo! Groups. Although I haven't had occasion to buy anything there yet, I am a member, and it's a great setup. Just post a "WTB" (Wanted to Buy) message for whatever you're looking for, and within hours, you'll more than likely have several people offering to sell it to you.

I'm going to be in the market (probably not until summer) for some used GP35s, 38s and 40s, perhaps a GP7 or 9 and some Athearn Blue Box U33Bs for my SCL-themed sectional layout, and that's where I'll be buying them.

Bill

[jwhitten]

steamage

Example of detailing swap meet models: Flat Cars by the Dozen

 

 

that's a cool site. Thanks for the link. Do you know of any others like that?

[BRAKIE]

Bill said:"Too" expensive is subjective. And as you and others have correctly pointed out, there are ways to be in the hobby without spending a small fortune. But others here have argued that the models available today really aren't more expensive than they were in "the good old days."

----------------------------------------------------

 

Good old days..I remember 'em well..

 

At the age of 14(1962) I bought my first brass steamer as could the average factory worker...I am 61 and can't afford brass..

 

What's wrong with that picture?

[andrechapelon]

jwhitten

Is it just me or what? (I'm looking for some old-timer perspective here...)

The cost of this hobby just seems astronomically staggering !

It just seems like every single manufacturer is out to put their kids through college on a single hopper car or bag of ground foam.

I'm not complaining that things cost money, people gotta eat-- but it seems pretty ridiculous. And it hasn't always been this way. For example, sometimes when I buy stuff from that big online yard sale place, it'll show up with the original price tags still on the box. For example, I just got through buying a bunch of Shinohara turnouts recently. #6's LH&HR, among others, new old stock... I thought I was getting a deal at $12 bucks each. I see them advertised elsewhere online for $20+ and up. So they get here and I was looking through them and then notice the _original_ price... $1.29, from a _DRUG STORE_ no less !

I understand a lot of things about buying and selling, particularly that things are worth whatever people will pay for them. So I know that's the real answer here-- people have bucks to spend and are willing to spend them even at these prices.

I'm just saying.

(Can I get an amen :)

How many times does a horse have to be beaten before everyone is satisfied he's dead? This poor beast is not only dead, he's in a very advanced state of decomposition. The smell alone should be enough to keep everybody from getting close enough to take a whack at him. Nonetheless, flogging seems to be the order of the day.

No, you can't get an amen and no, the hobby is not outrageously expensive compared to inflation adjusted prices back when some of the older posters on this forum were still soiling their diapers.  I'd give you examples, but those who can't handle the truth would accuse me of cherry-picking or ignoring some fleeting moment in time when things were slightly (oh so slightly) cheaper on a relative basis.

Given the vast improvement in overall running quality and detail (ever see the blobs that passed for Blomberg trucks on an Athearn F7 from the 50's or 60's?) people should be sacrificing goats to the hobby gods to thank them for the incredible explosion in items available over just the last 10 years.

Andre

[steamage]

This hobby is expensive as you want it to be. If you want the supper huge layout with a thousand freight cars and brass locos, then expect to throw a lot of money at it. Or you can learn model building skills and have maybe more fun by doing mostly scratch building, buy older Athearn freight car kits off Ebay or at hobby shows and detail them up to your liking. I have Tyco freight cars that have been detailed and diesels rescued from a junk box of trains that found new life on my layout. The basic theme of this wonderful hobby is, "Model railroading is fun."

Example of detailing swap meet models: Flat Cars by the Dozen

[BHirschi]

Paul:

Frankly, I'm getting very tired of getting into an argument with you every time I post on this forum.

I said the new SD35 has more and better details than the original. I don't know whether the new gearing is better because I haven't bought the new one, but the old one ran fine for years and years, and would creep along at a snail's pace all day if you wanted to, so there was certainly nothing wrong with the original drive train. But the obvious question is do a few added detail parts justify doubling the price in adjusted dollars? Apparently Atlas thinks so, and as long as they're selling enough SD35s to justify keeping it in production, they're probably right.

But I also said none of the new detail added to the new Atlas SD35 does me any good, because I can't justify spending $135 on it, given my budget. The freaking thing could have a tiny, fully-functional exact-scale EMD prime mover driving tiny little traction motors on each axle and it wouldn't matter to me. Would I love to have a new Atlas SD35 with all the new details? Yes. Would I love to have an Intermountain SCL U18B with DCC and sound? Heck yes. One of each road number, please. But I can't afford them.

Those who say nobody's forcing me to be in the hobby are absolutely right. Those who say I can find ways to be in the hobby even on my limited budget are also right, and I explained in my post how I'm doing that. All your points about hand-laying switches if you don't want to pay more for ready-made ones and grinding your own foam for scenery are well-taken.

The question asked by the OP was: "Cost of MR hobby too expensive?"

"Too" expensive is subjective. And as you and others have correctly pointed out, there are ways to be in the hobby without spending a small fortune. But others here have argued that the models available today really aren't more expensive than they were in "the good old days." And the main point I was making still stands -- regardless of whether it's better than the original or not, the fact remains that an HO scale Atlas SD35, in inflation-adjusted dollars, costs nearly twice as much today as it did in 1979. That's not a matter of opinion. It's a simple fact. You can argue whether or not it's worth twice the price because it has more details and a better drive train. But you can't argue that it costs the same or less.

That's all I said. And that's all I'm sayin'.

Bill

[Rangerover]

Kitbashing can save a lot of money too. I tried something because I was frustrated with not being able to buy rustic looking ho scale cabins, oh I saw the hunter cabin and I do have a copy of it but I wanted something that I saw at an expensive restaurant here in West Virginia. About 10 miles from where I live, The Cheat River Lodge and Restaurant and it has rustic cabins along the Cheat River, best trout fishing this side of ole miss in my opinion. I formed the river, but no where near complete yet. I made my own cabins out of bass wood ripped down to 1/16 by 1/16, and went ahead and accomplished it complete with outhouses. It was most rewarding. I now am going to build the Lodge at Cheat River and going there to take pictures of it so I get it right.

[tomikawaTT]

I bought my first car kits with my allowance money in 1948, so I guess I qualify as an old-timer...

The inflation-adjusted prices for anything except brand-new hand-crafted DCC-ready brass is lower now than it was half a century ago.  However, the quality is orders of magnitude better.  Compare 1950s Atlas flex (Code 100 brass stapled to fiber tie strip - awsomely ugly, but state of the art, 75 cents a yard) to present-day Atlas flex (Code 83 on accurately-dimensioned ties that look like wood or concrete) and consider that the present day product MSRP would have been about 40 cents in 1950.

Much of my rolling stock collection was purchased in Japan in the 1960s.  The identical items from the same manufacturers, are advertised today in Tetsudo Mokei Shumi (Japanese-language equivalent of MR,) at ten times or more the prices I paid - in yen.  Then factor in the exchange rate (360 yen = $1 then, 94 yen = $1 this morning) - my wallet cringes at the thought of either adding to or replacing my collection!

As for how expensive this hobby is - it is exactly as expensive as you allow it to be.  Granted that the prices of some items are high.  There are always less expensive work-arounds if one is willing to learn the techniques needed to use them.  I can create an entire puzzle palace yard throat for about the price of one ready-to-install double slip switch - and I don't consider myself a master tracklayer.  Rather than ante up $ for a fancy switch machine linkage, I learned how to make the same thing from a piece of tubing (salvaged from a used-up ball pen) and a bent paper clip.  I shop the sales catalogs and the consignment shelves of my LHS, and only buy things that can fit into my grand scheme (which has been set in stone for better than 40 years now.)

One last thought.  As long as you aren't adding to your debt to pay for it, model railroading is cheaper than almost anything else you could be doing with your time.

Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - inexpensively)

[blownout cylinder]

Paul3

and I see the head honcho of the POD People has already posted on this thread. 

Haven't you seen the movie--"Invasion Of The POD people"? Sort of along the same line as "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" ----could they be related?

[blownout cylinder]

loathar

WOW! 3 pages in 3.5 hours! I think that's a new record.

It might be one of THOSE threads---the thread that ate----

[RRTrainman]

I ran this thread several months ago.  I was asking the same question.  Now 99.99 ( I'm talking about diesel loco's) for a loco RTR where as 20 years ago you could get a loco for 20 to 30 bucks, and steam 129.99  now its 300.00 RTR I have the receipts to prove that.  Thats basically the same loco too, minus the DCC stuff now.  I guess with all the changes I seen over the years I guess the price is about right with inflation and with the change of loco to a DCC set up Its about right.  It seems to be the rolling stock where the biggest price change has been.  Track is comparably right on it, its only gone up nomenally over the years. 

Too expensive I don't think so.  With the inrows and changes The pricing today is comparably with inflation rates and the way the econmey is its about right.

[Heartland Division CB&Q]

Expensive ??????

It may be expesive...................

...............but it is cheaper than psychiatry!  

[da_kraut]

 Hi,

 Rangerover I have to agree totally with your outlook on the way inflation will hit us.  As for the hobby, it is as expensive as you make it.  Yes puchasing track and such basic items are costs one can not avoid but after that we have a huge range of choice in what we wish to pay for the items we are after.  Also the nice thing is that once the layout is finished the expenses start to go down unlike a hobby like snowmobiles.  

If I look at my European counterparts I think we are very fortunate to be able to purchase our products at the prices we purchase them at.  Here is an example right out of the Walthers catalogue.  The engine is a typical four axle diesel still used on the German railways, the equal to that would be the GP38 type engine over here.  The "manufacturer" is Brawa who gets their engines made the same place in China where the P2K engines are made. Here is the link http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/186-392 .  

 

Frank

[jwhitten]

BHirschi

I'm managing my MR budget by buying as much as I can at train shows, from the online yard sale site mentioned elsewhere, and -- when I can find a bargain on something I need -- from eBay.

Bill

 

 

ebay IS the online yard sale I was alluding to :)

[loathar]

WOW! 3 pages in 3.5 hours! I think that's a new record.

[Paul3]

Sigh.  I guess it's time for one of these threads again.  I admit it's been a while, but these threads always bring out the Prognosticators Of Doom People...and I see the head honcho of the POD People has already posted on this thread. 

Remember folks, it's a hobby.  You don't need to buy any model railroad item.  You need to pay the rent, you need to pay for food, you need to pay for the gas to earn the money to pay for the rent & the food, but you don't need to pay for model train supplies.

Think a $12 switch is too expensive?  Build one by hand.

Think a $3.79 package of ground foam is too expensive?  Use dyed sawdust or grind your own foam.

Think the latest $220 F7A from Athearn w/ sound is too expensive?  Buy a new Blue Box Athearn F7A for $40.

Really, folks, the hobby is only as expensive as you want it to be.

We could say anything is too expensive.  Take autos, for example.  We could all sit around all day and complain about the high costs of Ferarris, BMW's, and Lexus cars...but that doesn't eliminate Fords, Chevys, and Kia's from being cars, too.  They just aren't as fast or luxurious.

What's that old saying?  You can pick two of of three: Fast, Cheap, or Good.  If you want it Good and Fast, it won't be Cheap.  If you want it Good and Cheap, it won't be Fast.  If you want it Fast and Cheap, it won't be Good.  This all holds true with our hobby.

John (CNJ),
How would you compare prices for model railroad supplies across the ages if you aren't going to use the CPI?  You've only said we shouldn't, but you haven't said what we should use.

As for old timers being forced out of the hobby, I disagree.  It's a hobby, not a profession.  One cannot be fired as a model railroader. 

I am reminded of a friend of mine (who has since passed away) that complained loudly when we raised the dues $1 per month 10 years ago at our model railroad club.  He was a long retired cop & pipefitter and was a WWII vet, so he was around 75 years old at the time.  He made several comments about how he was on a fixed income and that it was such a burden to pay an extra $12 a year for membership, etc.

The very next month, he brought in three new hobby purchases: two Overland NH brass NE-6 cabooses at $250 ea., and one Overland B&A brass steam loco that was around $1000, IIRC.  Total cost: approx. $1500.  When I called him on it, saying, "Geez, Bob, why were you complaining about the extra $1 per month for dues when you can afford all this?"  He replied, "Well, I've been saving up for these."  I said, "And you can't save up $12 a year for the club?"  He didn't have much of an answer, and so I stopped believing him when he cried poor mouth after that.

BHirschi,
You'd be hardpressed to determine which SD35 you're looking at comparing the 1979 version to the 2009 version?  Did you happen to notice the new gearing?  The new, thinner handrails?  The see-through roof fans?  The dozen lift rings?  The dozen grabirons?  The cab shades, drop steps, the cut levers, and air hoses?  The brake piping and sand lines on the trucks?  How about the road specific horns and bells?  Or the realistic lighting effects vs. the single bulb?  Heck, the entire loco could be all new tooling for all we know, and probably is considering the SDP35's and the high nose versions are the same price as the basic version.

About the only locos that I know of that are still approx. the same as they were in 1979 that are still in production today that are unchanged are the Athearn BB F7A's (but they do have better paint).  They can be had for $40 MSRP at Horizon's website.  How much were they in 1979?  Every other model I can think of that's been around for that long has been upgraded somehow with either more detail or with a better drive.

Paul A. Cutler III
*******************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*******************

[Rangerover]

I live quite nicely on my pension and can still buy want I need or want..

Amen to that brakie, I believe some of us old timers have been through some of the best and worst. Inflation is what will put a dent in how I spend my "hobby" money. I don't mean to, nor want to bring politics in this or any discussion of my hobby interest, however just around the corner within the next year or 2 there will be high inflation and that means our dollars won't be buying what they do right now. Printing more money with no real standard like gold and silver, and borrowing will cause inflation to rise. Anybody remember our currency was printed in Silver Certificates, they're just promisary notes (Federal Reserve Notes) today. All I'm saying is if there is an expensive piece modeler's are putting off buying now, it would would be smart to reconsider, I know I am!  Been there and have seen that!

An above poster asked about other hobby's. I'm also a competitive high power rifle shooter. Not going into detail or nook and cranny of "expense". But one good example is I shoot out a match rifle barrel about every 3,000 rounds. When I was working I didn't care that I spent $1,000 for a new barrel replacement, once every 12 to 18 months. I just replaced my AR-15 National Match Upper at White Oak Arms for this season for a little over a thousand dollars. Local Hobby Shops and Gunsmith's are quite alike when it comes to cost. My local gunsmith wanted just under a thousand to replace only the barrel, Krieger Stainless Steel heavy barrel so the reason I got the whole upper, new gas port tube and matching bolt and carrier.....and the Krieger barrel far cheaper than a gunsmith. Reloading components are about twice the cost of 10 years ago, and nothing really changed with those in technology. But if I had to buy factory loaded match ammo, I wouldn't be enjoying that sport or hobby. I've been shooting competitive for 35 years.

Both hobby's Model railroading and shooting are expensive hobby's, but at present time, LOL and for what time I have left, I choose to enjoy my life, hey at least I don't have stress of the job any more. These are the BEST of times, so I enjoy!

[BRAKIE]

Model railroading is a bargain, folks.
--------------------------------------------------

Catfishing is a good bargain these days.Less the $100.00 will put you on the bank with a good rod and reel rig and a well stock "catter's box"..You will find Mr.Whiskers in any nearby stream,lake or river...

[BRAKIE]

blownout cylinder

BRAKIE

 

Last night I ordered a Atlas N Scale GP38-2 and a Intermountain Covered Hopper..Total cost including shipping $82.73..

In comparison buying from my not to local hobby shop(52 mile round trip).

Atlas GP38-2 $99.95

 IM Covered Hopper  $21.95

 Total:$121.90

Just to add to this--2 expense lines that tend to be overlooked

1)--fuel charge--how much gas did you go through to drive 'X' miles--keep in mind not all LHS's are REALLY LHS's

2) Shipping/Handling-Very rarely is this taken into consideration when calculating final costs.

This is one of the reasons I use LHS near me--10 min. drive--to order stuff through Walthers--I pick it up at LHS--usually at $10-$16 LESS than getting it delivered right at home. Look between gas/time spent driving and S/H--I'm usually saving between $8-$15

BTW-another issue--for me--being in Canada--the limp wristed Canadian dollar--add 20% to my overall cost----

 

Berry,Let me enlighten you on how this can work--don't know about Canada tho'.

1)--fuel charge--how much gas did you go through to drive 'X' miles--keep in mind not all LHS's are REALLY LHS's

---------------------------

That will depend-the closest about 3 gallons of gas including city driving..

------------------------

2) Shipping/Handling-Very rarely is this taken into consideration when calculating final costs.

 ------------------------

Most interesting and depends on what the e-tailer offers.

My grand total is $82.73 and includes $6.25 shipping-USPS Priority.

 

That's about what the gas would cost me for that 52 mile round trip at the current gas prices.

-----------------------------

 

The majority of the on line shops I deal with gives a option on shipping by  UPS or USPS...I use the cheapest route some times its USPS and other times its UPS.Oddly both will get here 48 hours after its been shipped.

[BHirschi]

This same discussion has been going on over at the Broadway Limited Imports forum on their web site. 

I hesitate to get involved in it here, because I don't want to get into a flame war, but from my point of view, the hobby has, in fact, gotten way more expensive than when I got into it in the late 1970s.

In 1979, I had to agonize about whether or not to spend a few of the hard-earned dollars I made in my job sweeping floors at the local McDonald's on a $25 Atlas Seaboard Coast Line SD35 (I took the plunge and bought it). At the time, the Atlas "Yellow Box" locos were considered among the best, with true scale-width hoods and sharp details and paint, not to mention a great motor and drivetrain under the hood.

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics' Inflation calculator, that same $25 would be worth almost $73 today. But Atlas' SD-35 (with a few more details, but NOT including DCC or sound) costs $135 -- nearly twice as much in inflation-adjusted dollars as it did in 1979. If you put a body shell of today's Atlas SD35 next to the one from my 1979 model, you'd be hard-pressed to tell the difference -- in fact, I'd bet the basic tooling of the model hasn't changed. Atlas has slapped on a few more details, put a DCC-ready socket on it, and almost doubled the price in relative dollars. Based on that, it seems hard to argue that prices have held steady, much less declined.

Without going into a lot of detail about my personal finances, let's just say that I hit my peak in earnings (in today's dollars) in 1997. Since then, I gained ground in only two years, and today, I'm earning slightly more than a third of what I did then, because I can no longer find work in the field I earned a college degree in, so I'm working an unskilled job. It's easy to say "If I want more trains I need to earn more money," but that ignores the extremely difficult job market (700 applicants for a school janitor's job in Ohio) and the "Wal-Mart-ization" of wages and benefits in today's economic climate.

I'm managing my MR budget by buying as much as I can at train shows, from the online yard sale site mentioned elsewhere, and -- when I can find a bargain on something I need -- from eBay.

Yes, we've come a long way. There's much more available for Seaboard, Atlantic Coast Line and Seaboard Coast Line (the roads I model, with an emphasis on SCL) than there was in 1979, the detailing has gotten better (with many models even being made in several versions with road-specific details for each paint job), and we have DCC, sound, and all kinds of nifty new technology enabling the production of ever more accurate models. None of which does me a bit of good if one locomotive blows my model railroading budget for the entire year.

Bill

[blownout cylinder]

Then again--some people don't think ANYTHING is expensive---

1) they just aren't into it

2) money to burn----

[Kenfolk]

 I was thinking about some of my other hobbies over the years:

Photography:  I've spent thousands and thousands of dollars on cameras, film, and processing. I've had three great digital cameras, one of which cost $1000 alone. (Not to mention expenses getting to and from the places I've photographed).

Boating: I've spent way more on boats over the years than on model railroading, not to mention upkeep, licensing, fuel, etc.

Skiing: Don't do this any more. I like my knees the way they are just fine, thank you. Not only were the skis and lift tickets expensive, but also the cost of getting there, lodging when necessary and more.

Golf: I don't golf, but I do know its expensive.

Model railroading is a bargain, folks.

 

[reklein]

I'm kinda in agreement with Jim Bernier,that compared to cars,guns,snowmobiles,boats etc, model railroading is cheap. I'd like to hear from some of the guys who do several of these, like cudaken and others. I used to be heavy into R/C planes. A couple guys I knew were pilots ,one even had an airplane repair business. When I asked em why they did models too, the answer was"relief form airplane part prices". Yeah some parts of MRing are kinda spendy,especially when you not prepared for the price ,nonetheless we continue on with our fascination with the miniatues. BILL

[blownout cylinder]

I'll keep saying the same thing--if we keep buying the stuff at a higher and higher price---the market will keep going up.

In the meantime I'll be working on learning how to run my cnc milling machine a buddy of mine and yours truly picked up for a song---heeheehee---

[BRAKIE]

CNJ831,Surely you jest when you said: "senior faction that makes up more than half the hobby today, will be forced out." since that is farthest from the truth unless you are talking about those that wanted a excuse to quit the hobby then any excuse is better then done....The majority of us older modelers have enough we need not to buy anything and if we want it we will buy it..A lot of what you hear about retirement on TV is pure poppy ****...I live quite nicely on my pension and can still buy want I need or want..

[jwhitten]

 No misprint. I bought 10 each #6 LH&RH, and 8 each #8 LH&RH as well as double-crossovers, double slip switches, etc-- many of them came in their original boxes. They were all in the same ballpark (don't know about the crossovers or slip switches, they didn't come in their original boxes). And most of them were originally bought at a drug store in Kentucky. Don't recall the name offhand, I can go downstairs and find out .

[CNJ831]

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

CNJ831,

Different world view - I'm only entitled to what I can earn, if I want more trains, I need to earn more money. Fact is ajusted for inflation all this new better stuff is not more expensive than the older not as good stuff. economies go up and down, but over the long haul, the relative value of most things stays similar.

Sheldon

Sheldon, try looking up what the inflation factor is for items purchased with disposable income - NOT the CPI which has no relevance to the question, as well as the average salary increases experienced by American workers over the years - before making rash statements. The prices for just about all model railroading items is today decidedly higher than at any time in the hobby's post-war history.

CNJ831

[JFdez]

My short answer is: no.  As with all hobbies, the cost of model RR has gone up, but the bottom line is that, unlike most hobbies, MR can be scaled (so to speak) to fit most budgets by simply starting small and building gradually.  That flexibility is much harder to get in many other hobbies, particularly those involving collections (stamps, coins) or major projects (car restorations, etc).

You can start in MR with the simple loop o' track with power, a locomotive and a couple of cars (and a place to set these up). Add some scenery here (this need not be expensive) and a building or two there and you're on your way.

You don't need DCC right there and then.  You don't need the locos with all the bells and whistles, or the pre-weathered super-detailed boxcar.  And even when you get to the point where you can get such items, the prices for some of these (e.g., starter DCC systems) are reasonable enough and easy to save for. 

 Juan

[jwhitten]

CNJ831

I must disagree with the preceeding poster, in spite of his hobbyshop experience. If one actually researches and compares the pricing of items across a considerable interval, it is aparent that there was a dramatic upswing in pricing beginning in the 1990's unmatched in the hobby's history, one which has continued to date.

CNJ831

 

 

Yeah, what he said! :)

That's my observation as well. Particularly since I've been gobbling up old issues of MR and studying them like there was gonna be a final exam. (Well, there sort-of will be I guess :) I have noticed that prices were pretty much steady and then WHAMO! big increase. For example, the price of 100 pieces of code 100 track from atlast was about $150-200 bucks in about 1999-2000. And now its double that. The engineering costs for Atlas code 100 track have been recouped many times over long ago and yet now the price has _doubled_ for the same item. The materials price has increased a little- 10-20% tops-- but not enough to justify doubling the price, except that there are people willing to plunk down the cash to pay it.

Generally, I've been doing pretty well. Keeping my eyes and ears open for good deals and snapping them up when I find them. I feel like _most_ of the stuff I acquire I get at a pretty good value, but rarely do I ever buy straight retail or from a LHS. Too expensive for me. It would be nice. I'd love to subsidize an LHS and go there and have a place to see things or talk to other people about the hobby, or even just find other people interested in the hobby period.  But there's no way I can afford to bear the cost of full retail. An item or two here and there, sure no problem. But not for everything. I have to get stuff on the secondary market-- the big online flea market-- but even there prices have just kept going up and up and up. Its feels insane sometimes.

Where can you get a good price on BULK ballast, for example, or ties, or rail, or roadbed, or any of a half a dozen basic things? How can the cost of scooping up _rocks_ and washing them and bagging them have changed all that much in nearly 100 years? I just don't see it. Pure labor is really the only changing factor, the rest is _cheaper_ to do today since the advent of electricity and motors and stuff.

(My other vocation/avocations are Computers, Programming, Electronics and Automation/Robotics-- I have a very good understanding how automation and streamlined manufacturing can reduce costs)

John

[jwhitten]

jrbernier

John,

  You must have a sheltered life.  Hobbies are expensive.  If you think model railroading is high, take a look at restoring an old car or tractor!  Or got out and buy a new boat!

  IIRC, the MSRP on a code 100 #4 Shinohara turnout(in the orange wrapper) was something like $2.25 MSRP in 1968.  Of course if you made over $3.00/hour back then, you were doing good.

Jim

 

 

That's why I was looking for an old-timer's perspective- I was just a kid in the 60's. 

And as for expensive hobbies, I have too many of those :)

I agree that the level of detail and performance has gone way up. And generally speaking I don't have a big problem spending some bucks for good-looking/running trains. But its really hard to cough up zillions of $$$ to buy ground foam (dyed ground-up foam rubber), lichen (dyed glycerin-preserved fungus)  and similar stuff (though I also have to admit the results are _ really_ nice)

This post isn't so much a complaint as it is a wish that I could hit the lottery... :)

[blownout cylinder]

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

And, lucky for me, my LHS is about 1200 yards away. And there is always TRAINWORLD bring packages rght to the door.

My closest LHS is about a 10 minute drive BUT on a nice sunny day I'll take that ~60 minute walk there. The scenery is good!!

[blownout cylinder]

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

My daddy taught me the price of anything is only determined by how bad I want it, and how bad the other guy wants to sell it. If that equation is in balance above the cost of production, products will be brought to market, if not, production will cease. Its that simple.

The reality is prices will go to what the market will bear. I'm happy that most of the time I find what I'm looking for--at reasonable prices----

[hectorgonzales]

jwhitten

I thought I was getting a deal at $12 bucks each. I see them advertised elsewhere online for $20+ and up. So they get here and I was looking through them and then notice the _original_ price... $1.29, from a _DRUG STORE_ no less !

 

$12 is very good deal. $1.29 from a drugstore? No way. Misprint.

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

CNJ831,

Is there anything in this life you are happy about? Fact is as layouts progress to near completion modelers buy less and the hobby costs less as they age, unless they didn't start until they where old.

My daddy taught me the price of anything is only determined by how bad I want it, and how bad the other guy wants to sell it. If that equation is in balance above the cost of production, products will be brought to market, if not, production will cease. Its that simple.

Different world view - I'm only entitled to what I can earn, if I want more trains, I need to earn more money. Fact is ajusted for inflation all this new better stuff is not more expensive than the older not as good stuff. economies go up and down, but over the long haul, the relative value of most things stays similar.

Sheldon

[pastorbob]

As a member of that "older faction" that CNJ alludes to, I disagree, but then each of us have different circumstances.  I retired at age 60, home paid for, good investments, and have been able to spend more on my hobby than when I was working.  Right now I have a standing order for a 6 pack of the new InterMountain refrigerator cars on order, my inventory of cars and locos far exceed what "I need".  I had my first train "Lionel Hudson" for my first Christmas at age 6 months and have had and bought and maintained trains all of my life since then.  That Lionel Hudson still sits on a shelf over a fireplace in my basement/trainroom, safe and secure after I was offered a rather large cash sum of money for it during an open house.  My dad was a railroad engineer, always wanted trains, lived his hobby and vocation through me.

Bob

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

Barry,

I will be the first to admit I know nothing about Canada, but here in the Mid Atlantic of the US, gasoline is about $2 a gallon right now. Ajusted for inflation, that is WAY cheaper (about 30% less) than the $0.30 is was in 1973 when I started driving to the hobby shop.

Even when it went above $3.00 here for a while, it's ajusted value was only slightly more than the late 60's or early 70's here. And my 1968 Checker Marathon got 20 mpg, and so does my new all wheel drive Ford Taurus - so I'm ahead.

And, lucky for me, my LHS is about 1200 yards away. And there is always TRAINWORLD bring packages rght to the door.

Now if we could only get taxes back down to 1973 levels, the world would be a great place.

Sheldon

 

[CNJ831]

I must disagree with the preceeding poster, in spite of his hobbyshop experience. If one actually researches and compares the pricing of items across a considerable interval, it is aparent that there was a dramatic upswing in pricing beginning in the 1990's unmatched in the hobby's history, one which has continued to date.

Model railroad equipment pricing lagged any supposed inflation figures from the late 1960's into the 80's (in spite of the fact that the CPI really has nothing to do with how items purchased with disposable income should be figured), a time when the hobby was more or less in the doldrums. So, for quite a span of years the hobby actually became cheaper relative to personal income.

This all ended with the first introductions of high-end and RTR locomotives in the 1990's, together with the discovery by the manufacturers that there were sufficient numbers of relatively well to do, newer hobbyists that were willing to spend big bucks on a regular basis for new high-end items. This opened the door for producing new models regularly, offering them at ever higher prices and only in ever more limited quantities. Likewise, the move to overseas production helped to further increase their profit margins. Slower selling, low priced kits (oldtimers never panic-bought or in volume and being craftsmen, they enjoy assembling cars, locomotives, et al. - RTR removes a big part of the hobby for them) that required stocking and long turnovers periods, weren't nearly as good for the manufacturers and so their availability has steadily diminished.

The arugment that increased detail and quality justifies the great increases in pricing we've seen is another canard. Quality and detail has ALWAYS increases with time (is a 1989 car the equal of a 2009 model?), it's called progressive advancement in technology. Of course, it may be taken beyond basic standards if the financial return justifies. It's also a reflection of pushing the pricing envelope as far as the market will allow.  

The price of seriously participating in the hobby is rapidly aproaching a time where a major segment of hobbyists, particularly the senior faction that makes up more than half the hobby today, will be forced out. Many are already buying ever less in the way of new stuff. At the opposite end of the spectrum, few younger folks stand much of a chance of gaining a real foothold at the current prices unless they buy secondhand and the situation will only get worse with time. The day of locomotives (and all the other items) becoming "plastic brass" in price, is rapidly approaching.

CNJ831

[jrbernier]

John,

  You must have a sheltered life.  Hobbies are expensive.  If you think model railroading is high, take a look at restoring an old car or tractor!  Or got out and buy a new boat!

  IIRC, the MSRP on a code 100 #4 Shinohara turnout(in the orange wrapper) was something like $2.25 MSRP in 1968.  Of course if you made over $3.00/hour back then, you were doing good.  The fast rise in prices for HO trains has a lot to do with the manufacturing/dollar value now - But just because everything is avialable, does not mean you have to buy it.  Also, the quality/features have grown over the years.  Atlas diesels are amoung the best runners and ther was nothing in 1960 that was even close in running or detail(Hobbytown drives/brass diesels).

  Another item is discounting - we usually paid MSRP back them(AHC would mail order discount, but you had no choice of road name).  Your other discount option was when Woolworth's had their big AHM sale!

Jim

[mobilman44]

Hi!

I've been playing with trains since the mid-50s, starting with Marx and then Lionel O gauge trains.  Today I collect postwar Lionel, but spend most of my time and money on HO - collection and layout.

Model Railroading is a somewhat unique hobby in that you can add to it (and use all the pieces) over a long period of time.  Said another way, the track you bought 20 years ago can still be in use, as well as the cars and locos bought then too!  And, you can have a small shelf layout, or a basement filled empire.  Which leads to the fact that you can spend as much money as you want.

In the '60s and early '70s, I got a lot of Athearn car kits (most of which I still have) for anywhere from $1.98 to $3.98.  You could get Athearn locos for $15-$20, and they were great (for that time period).  Of course income was much less at that time, so even $2 took a bite out of disposable income.

Today's prices - for equivalent - pieces are certainly higher, but very proportionate to today's incomes.  The big difference today - IMHO - is the huge availability of products and their pricerange.  You do not have to buy BLI or Genesis locos to enjoy the hobby.  You can buy Athearn (basic) or Tyco or other lower end "starter" pieces - and still get that thrill.

One additional comment on the subject.......  Way back in the '60s/'70s, many MR like myself were very content with the Athearn or MDC equipment, for there was not much else out there that was "better" - except for "brass", which was way out of my pricerange.  So, we were happy with what we had. 

Today, the new MR is blown away by the huge range of MR stuff readily available, and many just don't want to start out with basic stuff, wanting the higher end equipment that they really can't afford.  And of course this leads to three ends.......  either the MR will "charge it", be unhappy with what he has, or lose interest in the hobby. '

Hey, FWIW...............

Mobilman44  

  

[blownout cylinder]

BRAKIE

 

Last night I ordered a Atlas N Scale GP38-2 and a Intermountain Covered Hopper..Total cost including shipping $82.73..

In comparison buying from my not to local hobby shop(52 mile round trip).

Atlas GP38-2 $99.95

 IM Covered Hopper  $21.95

 Total:$121.90

Just to add to this--2 expense lines that tend to be overlooked

1)--fuel charge--how much gas did you go through to drive 'X' miles--keep in mind not all LHS's are REALLY LHS's

2) Shipping/Handling-Very rarely is this taken into consideration when calculating final costs.

This is one of the reasons I use LHS near me--10 min. drive--to order stuff through Walthers--I pick it up at LHS--usually at $10-$16 LESS than getting it delivered right at home. Look between gas/time spent driving and S/H--I'm usually saving between $8-$15

BTW-another issue--for me--being in Canada--the limp wristed Canadian dollar--add 20% to my overall cost----

[tpatrick]

Atlantic Central is right. Our hobby may not be cheap, but today you get a lot more for your money than ever before. Using and online inflation calculator I found some telling numbers:

In 1958 I bought a Penn Line PRR K4 kit for $34.50. It took many weeks of saving to accumulate that much money. Today's price equivalent is $264.10. Bowser's list price is $172.50. A pretty good deal and probably an improved kit,too. BTW, the Bowser line is discontinued, so if you want one, now is the time to buy.

In 1990 an Atlas GP-7 sold, at Ted's Engine House, for $74.95. That was a come-and-get-it closeout price. In 2009 dollars that is $130.19. M. B. Klein lists the Atlas GP-7 today at a retail price of  $114.95. But their everyday discounted price is $74.99. Even better, it is currently on sale for $69.99. I bought two of them in 1990. I should've waited.

Finally, consider the enormous advances we have made since those Atlas engines were on Ted's shelf. DCC was unheard of. And speaking of unheard, sound for most of us was only a dream. Yes, PFM offered sound, but it was not widely used and certainly not close to today's offerings. You can add to the list of advances if you wish. Suffice to say, we are now in a golden age of the hobby, a time when you get more for your money than ever before.

 

[hnryafrika]

Funny,  I just asked the question in the opposite direction.  A Penn Line K4 Pacific kit that I have from 1957 cost $34.50 at the time...$250.00 today.  I asked when, if ever, there was a turning point in modeling that made it more accessible.

[BRAKIE]

Depends on where you shop..I went to a hobby shop yesterday and walked away with sticker stock..4 items $18.37 including tax..Whew! I will add the small items on my e tailer orders.Did I mention he did not have 2 other items I needed?

 

Last night I ordered a Atlas N Scale GP38-2 and a Intermountain Covered Hopper..Total cost including shipping $82.73..

In comparison buying from my not to local hobby shop(52 mile round trip).

Atlas GP38-2 $99.95

 IM Covered Hopper  $21.95

 Total:$121.90

 

Difference.

$39.17..Plus State tax at 6.75%.

He would need to be special ordered the above items..

You decide which is the better deal for your hobby budget.

[armchair]

blownout cylinder

I just readjust my budgets--besides, I'm at the point that I might be able to get away from locos--seem to have a supply falling out'n the woodwork lately---heeheehee

Yes, I was thinking about My loco to rolling stock ratio & it is a LITTLE high .

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

Having worked in the hobby shop business years ago, and understanding the pricing structure and distribution in this business I must repectfully disagree with the OP.

Adjusted for inflation, even with all these new better products, this hobby is cheaper now than ever before.

I will admit more people are able to build bigger layouts and are choosing to spend more money. But the combination of overseas production, higher product volumes and massive DISCOUNTING that never exsisted 25-30 years ago has kept this hobby as afordable as it ever was or more so.

Having said all that, I will admit it has NEVER been an inexpensive hobby, not if you build/buy/assemble anything of any size or complexity.

But, I have to spend the money on something, I surely don't want to leave it to the government or the evil children. The will shall read "Being of sound mind and body I spent it all".

Sheldon

 

[blownout cylinder]

I would say in some ways --yes it is. Some of the increase is due to RTR and the demand for more accuracy in locomotives( ever cost out how much it costs to prototype the model before putting out a line?). But I'm also wondering about the old saw--prices go up to what the market can bear.

I just readjust my budgets--besides, I'm at the point that I might be able to get away from locos--seem to have a supply falling out'n the woodwork lately---heeheehee

[armchair]

 Model railroading is an expensive hobby, there are so many facets involved. All hobbies are expensive. Once You get setup though, I don't think it is as expensive as other hobbies as You are at home or at the club if You're into that. I saw some old hotrod mags that I found last summer & I was astounded by the price increase of a simple Holley carb. & other items in the ads, Wow !  This is why I don't build cars anymore .I think the RTR mindset may have contributed to the increase in prices. You will have to admit the products We can purchase today are as a rule far superior to what was avail. in the early 70's. I agree things have gotten very expensive, so You have to decide what You need or want the most. Usually I buy things that I want & not always what I need for the layout, this isn't the best approach, but I'm guilty.