Hi,
I wonder if ho scale could ever go to battery power, like G scale?
Chris
It can .... and it has ! ....
http://www.a1micromotive.co.uk/what_is_red_arrow.html
I firmly believe we will see some form of this more widely accepted in the next 5 to 10 years.
Mark.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
Classic disscussion to be had here. I dislike the idea of batteries in hundred locos that can eek out and corrode, and would probably need to be replaced. Battery tech might transend this, but I don't know right off. Red Arrow makes some neat points about running though. Theoretically, we'd have moe control over train speed. Also limiting is space. SD90s are fine. But by the time you get an 0-4-0 motor, your out of room. Now, for lighting, batts aren't quite as bad. If one remembers to turn them off when used, a car interior can go for a good many runs. I have a few cars and a loco with a beacon that one has to remove the top of to get to the battery, and it's a tad bit underneath nuisence level. But they are Christmas cars, and good ones at that, so I deal with it. Yeah, we could wire up on/off switches, but you still have to replace the things. SO for now, I'll stick with my powered rusty rail.
-Morgan
Supposedly, the concept behind this system is that they use a rechargeable type battery. Isolated sections of track - like an engine house / facilities have running power that is used for recharging the battery. That would eliminate the need for removing / replacing the battery and also eliminate the need to shut the battery off when not in use.
Your whole staging yard could be used to keep the batteries charged up before they are needed to make their appearance ! I'm really liking this concept. The technology is out there and it's starting to be tapped into. Just like DCC, once the components become affordable for the mass markets, it will flourish.
Awhile back I encountered a blurb on MSN.COM about a company developing some very small rechargable batteries whose size would/could allow certain applications in N-Scale. I do not recall the exact size specs of these mentioned batteries but the length and width would have allowed application only in some kind of a full width body shell such as a covered wagon or a PRR-length (steam) locomotive tender. The big problem was that they developed only about 7.5 volts necessitating two units in series to get the required voltage for DCC and our 12VDC motors.
These batteries could conceivably be installed in some sort of dummy unit and the voltage piped to a powered unit but a second problem was that, since no power was being applied to the track, any control of a powered locomotive would have had to be wireless.
There was a third predicament involved here. We program our decoders on an isolated track. I do not know whether one would be able to recharge these batteries when they were operating in series or not. If so then perhaps these batteries could be recharged on an isolated track while they were still installed in a locomotive; if not then, of course, the batteries would have to be removed and recharged singly and that raises the issue of practicality.
. . . . . . . . . . and would one of these battery units be powerful enough to run multiple power units?
I know that your querry was directed to HO-Scale but when I encountered this article I, of course, immediately thought in N-Scale terms. At the time this article appeared I did not have a functioning printer so I did not print it out; I seem to recall writing down the name of the company developing these batteries but I have no idea where I might find it at the current time.
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
Batteries in series charge the same - a battery pack in a cordless telephone is nothing more than three cells in series packaged in shrink wrap.
Probably the major limiting factor, in using battery power, is the current state of battery technology. Battery technology really hasn't improved all that much since the 1960s (and some would argue before that) and would seem to be a hot research area given the dramatic need for energy storage today. The idea of having an "isolated track" to recharge on-board batteries is a good one if the operator is faithful and safe in its use. Yesterday, I was driving to a train show (where else?) in a moderate rainstorm. I would have liked to have a dollar for every car I passed that did not have their headlights on. My point is that any charging system would have to be heavily commited to the KISS principle. How many modelers rail a DCC-equipped locomotive with the layout power ON - only to wonder why the decoder malfunctions?
Electrical energy storage can be costly in regards to space. I suspose one could outfit a dedicated box car to hold the necessary batteries...but - As it stands I wish the major manufacturers could solve the problem of giving us a good running early American 4-4-0 (or 0-4-0 switcher) that was equipped with DCC and sound. Unfortunately these engines are too small to "shoehorn" everything in and still have enough weight to actually pull something...where would the room come from for energy storage?
Necessity is the mother of invention and there are a lot of clever people out there - so who knows, maybe we will have small, powerful energy cells in the future. One can't argue that our hobby is vastly different from when we entered it as kids.
Ray
"Keeping my hand on the throttle...and my eyes on rail."
CNE RunnerHow many modelers rail a DCC-equipped locomotive with the layout power ON - only to wonder why the decoder malfunctions?
Uh, no one's told me that's a bad idea. Hmm?
Mark R.That would eliminate the need for removing / replacing the battery and also eliminate the need to shut the battery off when not in use
That would cut it down considerably, and mabe to the frequency of having to open the locos up. But You do still have to replce rechargables.Case in point: We've had tp replace every rechargeable on our Cordless phones in the last 2 years.
I could live with having to change the batteries once every two years !
As far as the battery life in cordless phones go, 99.9% of people change the batteries more frequently than they have to because they don't know how to condition the battery pack properly. A rechargeable battery will develop a short-term memory if it isn't regularly fully discharged and recharged. If the battery is only ever discharged half way and then placed back on the charger, the battery begins to "think" that's all the capacity it has. Small "webs" are created between the cell's windings that basically cause that section to short out and lose capacity. The batteries can be shocked to burn away those webs bringing the battery back to at least 95% of its original capacity .... but who does that, right ? - Much easier to just buy a new battery pack !
To me the ultimate would be onboard power and radio controlled decoders, a completely wireless operating system. It would be the closest thing to actually being able to ride in the cab of your locomotive. Of course, add an onboard camera and you could add that to the experience. Another advantage would be it would eliminate the need to keep your tracks clean other than the recharging tracks. I don't know how close we are to making this practical but I'd be one of the first to try it if it becomes an option.
Mark R. I could live with having to change the batteries once every two years ! As far as the battery life in cordless phones go, 99.9% of people change the batteries more frequently than they have to because they don't know how to condition the battery pack properly. A rechargeable battery will develop a short-term memory if it isn't regularly fully discharged and recharged. If the battery is only ever discharged half way and then placed back on the charger, the battery begins to "think" that's all the capacity it has. Small "webs" are created between the cell's windings that basically cause that section to short out and lose capacity. The batteries can be shocked to burn away those webs bringing the battery back to at least 95% of its original capacity .... but who does that, right ? - Much easier to just buy a new battery pack ! Mark.
Chuck & Heather
tattooguy67 Mark R. I could live with having to change the batteries once every two years ! As far as the battery life in cordless phones go, 99.9% of people change the batteries more frequently than they have to because they don't know how to condition the battery pack properly. A rechargeable battery will develop a short-term memory if it isn't regularly fully discharged and recharged. If the battery is only ever discharged half way and then placed back on the charger, the battery begins to "think" that's all the capacity it has. .........Mark. Is that still true though? i understand that is the case with nickle cadmium batteries but are not the newer lithium ion type not supposed to do that, ........Chuck & Heather
Mark R. I could live with having to change the batteries once every two years ! As far as the battery life in cordless phones go, 99.9% of people change the batteries more frequently than they have to because they don't know how to condition the battery pack properly. A rechargeable battery will develop a short-term memory if it isn't regularly fully discharged and recharged. If the battery is only ever discharged half way and then placed back on the charger, the battery begins to "think" that's all the capacity it has. .........Mark.
As far as the battery life in cordless phones go, 99.9% of people change the batteries more frequently than they have to because they don't know how to condition the battery pack properly. A rechargeable battery will develop a short-term memory if it isn't regularly fully discharged and recharged. If the battery is only ever discharged half way and then placed back on the charger, the battery begins to "think" that's all the capacity it has. .........Mark.
The above applies ONLY to NiCad chemistry batteries - do NOT ever do it with Lithium Ion, fire will result. It also does not apply to NimH chemisry batteries.
NimH are the batteries used in most hybrid cars such as the Prius. Lithium Ion are used in most current notebook computers - and were subject to a recall a year or so ago due to a fire hazzard. Oxygen contamination of a Li-ion cell will cause a fire - and adding water will make things much worse.
My apologies .... I should have clarified - I made that statement based on the fact that the majority of battery packs in cordless phones are / were the NiCad variety.
I want this system NOW!!!!!!! I will gladly give up sound to go battery. No more dirty track, dead frogs, reverse loop or turntable wiring headaces.
I run HO with DCC in the basement, but in the backyard, I run the RCS system, which is radio using battery packs. Each diesel has two batteries that give me 3-4 hours running time and everything is on board. I have different channels assigned by dip switches, makes consisting easy. I also have some units with just the battery packs that plug into a "mother unit" so I can flip a switch and double my running time.
I also charge by plugging in a charging unit to a port in the fuel tank or in the end of the shell, charge on ordinary track, but do need an electrical outlet somewhere near by.
Best of both worlds.
Bob
Yes, well that's the rub with smaller scales - how long does the battery run before recharging. Electronics has gotten everything else small enough to work. But the batteries tend to be bulky or short lived if really small. For the whistle, bell, and all those wonderful steam engine sounds you need space for the speaker so space for the battery is further limited.
I didn't see anything on the site for Arrow about run time between chargings. Anybody have any idea for smaller scales?
Enjoy
Paul
One of the pages said 3-4 hours run time on a charge using low current motor. Nothing said about train length though.
I only see one problem. If it's direct line of sight, traveling through high buildings or multiple tunnels could be a deterent.
It might help if it had a memory and kept the same speed when the line-of-site was disturbed. However, it wouldn't allow you to stop or back up.
I see this as a major issue, if you can manage the size.
Does anyone know the cost of such a system?
Thanks....
~G4
19 Years old, modeling the Cowlitz, Chehalis, and Cascade Railroad of Western Washington in 1927 in 6X6 feet.
IVRWI really don't think battery powered trains will ever be a choice of even the armchair modeler. Picture this average scenario. You are in the middle of an operating session and someone calls out that heir loco ran out of power. Either you go to get batteries and find you have none, or you replace the batteries and find you forgot to stop the fast clock. The op session is doomed either way with countless unnamed problems. Not a good idea.
Finding batteries would be a hastle to the Fast Clock, yes. But to just change them shouldn't be much different than the issues we have with dirty track adding up.
ON the line of sight: Most likely, it would follow DCC now and continue to do whatever it was last doing. Now, if you have something behind like, the siding ending at the edge (in which case your dumb for sticking back there), you can't do anything.
Train length: Hadn't thought of that, that would potentially drain as well. B units as backup power? You'd have to get around overloads from 4 batteris.
Here's another to consider: The battery corrodes all over your nice, new $600 loco.
Also, on my Cordlesses, It's fine changing out 6 batteries. But on 100 locomotives, not so much.
I think battery power engines would get more young people interested. Wiring
a layout can be intimidating. I don't like like to sodder.
I strongly believe this will become another viable option for model railroaders in the future. The exact same type of comments were made when command control / DCC first crested over the horizon. In its infancy (GE Astrac) it required a tethered dummy engine in addition to the powered one to house all the components. As technology advanced, it became smaller and more affordable. The same will happen with battery power technology as well.
For some reason it's human nature to jump on the "find fault band wagon". I think it's more the people who just aren't interested in this type of technology that are the first to throw stones. Those that ARE truly interested in the concept will embrace it with open arms and be at the fore-front to not only make it work, but make it as user friendly as DCC and sound has become. I give credit to those individuals who persue the "what if" mentality .... without them, we'd still be watching a wind-up train race around a circle of track.
Mark R.For some reason it's human nature to jump on the "find fault band wagon". I think it's more the people who just aren't interested in this type of technology that are the first to throw stones.
HUman nature is to 1) publiize bad, and 2) not want to be held holding the grenade when it blows up.
While I'm not thrilled with the technology, I for one would rather be asking these questions now rather than leter. Also, DCC can scale down much more easily than batteries can. Batteries will still need room to handle the reactions or whatever it is that goes on in batteries. In some ways it really is a science of splitting the atom.