I started the dismantling process last Friday and as of last night have removed all the DCC equipment, track, subroadbed and am working on the wiring. If all goes well I should have it torn down in the next couple of weeks.
After it’s gone I plan to sell off much of the loco’s and rolling stock I never used to finance the next layout.
I’m somewhat saddened but at the same time excited to begin something that I believe I will enjoy more.
This was definitely a lessons learned project as it was the first serious layout I’ve ever attempted.
Things I will not do again:
1. Start building a layout without a complete plan
2. Duck under / lift gate
3. Solder all joints
4. Conceal trackage
5. Have two main lines
Things I will include on the next layout:
1. Sidings near industries (generally more on the layout)
2. Industries shown on the plan
3. Use extruded foam for the surface
4. Use Tortoise machines to throw all turnouts
5. Incorporate the programming track into the layout
Anyone go through this dilemma before or are currently going through this process?
Bill
Hi, and yes, I have been there.
First, though, I was interested in your use of the word "dilemma". A dilemma is a forced choice between at least two moral problems, the resolution of either of which has great potential to do harm, and finally the way ahead is not at all obvious. I don't quite see how your situation comprises a dilemma. Seems to me this was pretty much a no-brainer for you.
I must duck under to get to my current railroad. In a future rebuild, I would avoid it...but I purposefully did it this time to maximize the run I could get and because I wanted to be surrounded by scenery in my tiny space. Next time, I'll do something else.
Tortoise machines would be desirable, but I still really do enjoy lining routes by hand. It would only be in the case of distant, hard-to-reach turnouts, say farther back on a higher level where a three-step stool were needed, that I would resort to Tortoise machines.
Extruded foam is great, but it can be very noisy....beware. You'll need vinyl or cork roadbed.
I knew enough about "me" that I would not be happy lifting my engines off the layout and placing them on a programming track. So, my track is a gapped section of the lead to the turntable, right at the front edge of my main module housing the yard. I flip an SPDT and the layout gets isolated, but power remains on this one section. A weak part of the design is having to make sure the engine is entirely within the confines of this gapped length. A neat part of that weakness is that I can run the engine off the section and get power to the rest of the layout when it bridges the gap. I wouldn't want a short to carry through that engine, though, because potentially 5 amps could course through the conduit of the power to the layout, and that is the engine and decoder. So far, so good.
I won't go any longer except to say that a plan is a must, and sticking to it is at least somewhat wise. Deviating from a plan is fine, too, but it must be intelligently done. If it is just a simple decision to abstain from parts of the design it can lead to problems as you now know.
-Crandell
Hi!
As one Bill to another, I feel your pain. Over the last six months, I've been writing in the Layout section of the Forum about my then existing layout and my "need" to build a new one. Well, the 15 year old 11x15 two level layout is gone, and I'm currently painting the around the room backdrop. I first developed scale plans, and purchased the intial materials. I also decided to go to DCC, and have most all of the systems purchased as well.
The old layout was nice, with "bulletproof" benchwork, track, wiring, and the scenery was not bad. But, it had a handful of shortcomings that bugged me from the first year. I lessened some of the problems, but I was never really happy with it. Things like hidden turnouts, a raised reverse loop that looked good but took up way to much space, reliable but complicated wiring (3 cabs), and rockwork that looked good, but was painted way too dark.
Anyway, I should have taken it down 10 years ago, but just kept patching and figuring I would fix it "tomorrow". Well, what happened was that I was losing interest in the layout, and went weeks at a time without opening the door. I did build some structures and car kits during that time, but I could see that I would never be happy with what I had.
Sooo, you have done the right thing, and like me you sound like you have learned from your previous layout - not only what works, but what doesn't work.
ENJOY!
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Yes 3-4 times over the years-even a ISL can be planed well on paper and turn out to be a nightmare.
The solution that works best for me is plan as I go and having the needed industrial buildings on hand so I can fit the track to the industry instead of industry to track.
My best advice I can give anybody is plan your layout well and forget what the "experts" say about layouts..Use your good common sense and you will be light years ahead of the so called "layout experts".
Remember your basics.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Crandell,
Thanks for clairfication of the use of the word "dilemma". It's best said that I am upset that I have spent a lot of time and money on the layout and are now tearing it down. I will build another layout but need to decide on the particulars.
There are lots of modelers here that have gone through this situation and would like hearing from those that have.
I've described some of the Will do's and Won't do's of the next layout and would like to hear some of the other modelers examples.
I have used extruded foam before and am aware of the sound elevation. I used cork roadbed on the previous layout. It was on plywood and was still rather noisy. I believe that the WS foam roadbed may be more sound deadining.
I did learn a lot from this first layout. Especially when I started taking it apart.
Even though I thought I was doing a great job soldering the feeder wires, I found several were not soldered really good to the rails. A simple pry upward snapped the solder joint. This is something I will have to correct on the next layout.
I used four different adhesives to lay the track and cork roadbed. Gray Acrylic Caulk, White Acrylic Caulk, Clear Acrylic Caulk and White Glue.
I used the white glue for the roadbed to the plywood in many areas. It dried slower but stuck really good. I used the White caulk to begin with for the track. It held very well. Then someone suggested using Gray because it helped with blending in with the ballast. It worked well but every place where the track came loose was under the gray caulk. Finally the clear caulk. It held really good and was the easiest to remove when it came time to take up the track.
For track holding purposes I would give the clear the best holding followed by the white and finally the gray.
I could go on but this information may be better in a thread in the layout forum suggesting best and worst practices.
I think it is good of you to post your observations, Bill...thanks for doing it. Lessons learned seem to be a rite of passage in this hobby. I think I could write a small book on the lessons I have learned., and some of them generalize to life itself.
I am especially interested in your observation about the caulking. I think I wouldn't mind using the clear stuff, but did you find it somewhat shiny when it was set? Not that it should be a problem since ballast covers it anyway, but perhaps it could be a bit of a problem in places where ballast has to be thin for whatever reason, such as around turnouts.
Keep hidden track to a minimum. had an engine plummet to the floor on the hidden track. I left something on the track. Removed the hidden track shortly after. A liftout/duckunder worked better.
selector I think it is good of you to post your observations, Bill...thanks for doing it. Lessons learned seem to be a rite of passage in this hobby. I think I could write a small book on the lessons I have learned., and some of them generalize to life itself. I am especially interested in your observation about the caulking. I think I wouldn't mind using the clear stuff, but did you find it somewhat shiny when it was set? Not that it should be a problem since ballast covers it anyway, but perhaps it could be a bit of a problem in places where ballast has to be thin for whatever reason, such as around turnouts. -Crandell
The result was the caulk did not seep outside the edge of the ties. So had I put ballast down it would have blended in perfectly.
Since I expect to use the extruded form next time I'm wondering what works best to hold the cork to the foam. I hope to find something that if I need to remove a section it wouldn't destroy the foam.
I use Elmers black label for 95% of my layout scenery and track. It glues cork or foam roadbed down well, provided you hold it down to foam with T-pins, or track nails. I use track nails on the track, then remove them after the ballast is glued down.
I built my last layout on 2 layers of 1" blue/pink foam laminated together and supported with cheap shelf brackets mounted every foot or so. One the ballast and scenery material was down, it got a bit quieter. I also added hardwood to the front of the layout with dowels and latex caulk, inserted into the foam front.
As for a duck under, I would suggest you consider raising your layout to shoulder height and using a duckunder, if that would be advantageous for your track plan. I had a 2 level layout in my basement, with the stairs coming down inside the layout, so I was lucky. But I liked the upper level better than the lower level, and when I build a new layout, if it is single deck, it will still be quite high.
Bill, I think of this situation as growing pains. As our skills grow We realize the shortcomings of Our dream "pike". I spent several years buidling My N scale dc controlled layout. It was 2.5 x 11.5 with 2 cabs . Kato & Atlas locos ran flawlessly on this double loop empire, I could back a 50 car train around the layout& into any siding without any derailments,the trackwork was flawless. I got disinterested in the layout & never completed the scenery,why? because dcc had came out & I was so impressed with the flexability offered & the availability of HO equipment, also My skills had grown to the point I realized the N scale pike was NOT operation oriented enough so I dismantled the layout.I've since joined an HO club & am still planning My home layout. Only a 2.5 X 6' HO test module exists now, I can't forget how well the N scale ran,but I think I did the right thing as I was at a standstill & losing interest in the hobby. Switching scales was hard at first, but it got My interest & passion for the hobby back. Good luck on Your new layout & most of all, have fun.
I would suggest sectional construction. That suggestion is based on my experiences. I have dismantled layouts because of moving. My sectional construction will make moving the layout a feasible alternative to dismantling.
Next, you may want to reconsider switch machines for every turnout. It is realistic to switch cars in industries with ground throws.
It is a good idea to have as much track as possible within an arms reach of the aisles.
Good luck, Bill.
GARRY
HEARTLAND DIVISION, CB&Q RR
EVERYWHERE LOST; WE HUSTLE OUR CABOOSE FOR YOU
I do have duckunders on my 17'x16' island-style E-shaped layout. Tried to do without them, but since I model the early 1990's with 90ft auto racks etc., I needed broad curves which I otherwise couldn't have fit. I was also constrained by the presence of floor-to-ceiling storage shelves on 3 of the four walls of my garage, this prevented me from doing an around-the-walls design which I would have preferred. Aside from those flaws, I have been able to do enough minor reconstructions so that it is fun to operate.
I'm gradually moving stuff off of the wall shelves a little bit at a time, until they are no longer needed and I can tear them down. At that point I'll start planning a newer, improved layout. But I want to enjoy what I currently have, warts and all, for at least another 2-3 years.
-Ken in Maryland (B&O modeler, former CSX modeler)
I built my layout too low. The idea was to tuck it under the 45-degree roofline, so it didn't stick out to far into the center of the family room. But, it's very awkward to work under. A few inches higher would have been way more comfortable.
I didn't give enough thought to either industries or staging. As a result, I can enjoy railfanning a lot, but switching opportunites are limited, and operations are really not a realistic option. I'm planning an addition that should take care of the staging problem, and I may squeeze some more industry in there as well.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Bill I have some questions on your choices and statments above, 1st I was almost jaw dropping surprised to see you state you would not solder your joints this time. I have not but after seeing an article in MR I was considering it. What are your reasons for not doing so again ?
Using foam. What did you use before and why would you not use it again ?
yougottawanta Bill I have some questions on your choices and statments above, 1st I was almost jaw dropping surprised to see you state you would not solder your joints this time. I have not but after seeing an article in MR I was considering it. What are your reasons for not doing so again ? Using foam. What did you use before and why would you not use it again ?
The benchwork and the sub-roadbed were in place for the past year, so I thought the wood had acclimated to the climate.
I finished laying the mainlines just before Christmas and was running trains for the grandkids on Christmas day and for a while afterward.
Around the second week in January the weather turned very cold and the humidity dropped to 20%-25%. It was then that I was running trains that previously ran perfect and now were derailing at different areas.
A couple turnouts had tweeked and over a dozen places the track warped. I did a temporary fix but was not pleased knowing that each time I looked I found another place where the track had come loose due to warping.
The reason the track warped was because the wood shrunk due to the dryness and because I didn't allow gaps in the track. It buckled and the pressure made the ties literly pop loose from the acrylic adhesive.
On this layout I used 1/2" plywood for the subroadbed / surface. The next time I will use extruded foam. It does not shrink or expand under the same climatic conditions.
MisterBeasleyI built my layout too low. The idea was to tuck it under the 45-degree roofline, so it didn't stick out to far into the center of the family room. But, it's very awkward to work under. A few inches higher would have been way more comfortable. I didn't give enough thought to either industries or staging. As a result, I can enjoy railfanning a lot, but switching opportunites are limited, and operations are really not a realistic option. I'm planning an addition that should take care of the staging problem, and I may squeeze some more industry in there as well.
Adding an addition to the railroad or the house? I say just build an addition on to the house for your train room
Bill wrote "We do not have a humidifier on the heating system so it gets very dry when the temps drop below freezing." Have you considered going to Wally World and picking up an inexpensive one ? Would this stop the buckle problem or do you think some of the issues may be also with contraction and expansion with the small temperature changes ?