ICRR , I ordered 8 packs @ 2.25 . This seemed like the best way to go. Those locos were ALL bought new, that didn't seem to matter . It is no big deal ,lesson learned. Folks @ Horizon were pleasant to deal with, I ordered some horns while I was at it, an SD 50 mysteriously had one missing,(broke off while I was installing coupler). Randy....
Randy,
Ya, if you bought them at a train show or snagged them up of ebay, Walthers probably won't cover the gears. And the added cost of shipping, so fixing them with the Athearn gears is your best bet at this point. Here is a link as to where to get them. I would order a few extra packs just to have on hand though.
http://www.horizonhobby.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=ATH60024
It would be best to let it go, but I will answer Your question. Walthers wanted Me to send them all the gearsets out of the 6 bad locos with a copy of the original sales slips & I would have to pay shipping & handling both ways IF they decided to warranty them. I will try to do what someone else suggested & just order the gears from Athearn. I don't like dealing with Walthers. Two many if's . I did not intend to start a feud on this post, seems to Me too much of a Ford vs. Chevy issue. The detail on the P2K are great, but I will stick to Atlas & Kato from now on, because I did not like the CS at Walthers. This is only MY experience with them so let's not have another feud, please. Thanks to all that actually answered the original question asked . Randy........
armchair,
No big deal, we just had a few conflicts over the state of the issue between members.
So how did your repairs or trouble shooting come out on your problem with your loco?
Don Gibson "Cracked gears - Old news (2 cyears old) 1. Limited primarily to OLD 8 wheel Chassis' (GP-20, GP-30, GP-9) 2. FREE gear replacements,sent NC for the asking. 3. Super simple home replacement or Erly runs ewere closed out at unbelievable low prices. Where's the complaint?.
"Cracked gears - Old news (2 cyears old)
1. Limited primarily to OLD 8 wheel Chassis' (GP-20, GP-30, GP-9)
2. FREE gear replacements,sent NC for the asking.
3. Super simple home replacement or Erly runs ewere closed out at unbelievable low prices.
Where's the complaint?.
TA462:
Ignore anyone that prefers the 50 yr.old Athearn GP-9.
First.(and least), the Athearn GP-9 is a GP-7, not a GP-9
2 FAR WORSE: The Athearn has a un-protoypical WIDE body to hide its motor.
3' 'Jack-rabbit' starts, stops, and 120 mph speeds
4.12 volt Headlight in cab varies with speed of loco
5.Old style motor pulls 1/2 to 1 ampere (depending on age - average 3/4 amps -and takes 6 volts to start
The Proto 2000 is geared for prototipical starts, stops, and speeds,,(Stops and starts like a real engine)
Runs @ 1/3volt,
Directional Headlight comes on before engine starts to move
Correct body and superior paint job,
Old 'ATLAS/Kato:
Superior running to Athearn
Correct body, but similar paint job
Atlas GP-7 (Last run)
Superior paint job+ available in different paint schemes;, .(Example:: had 1972 war-bonnet freeight scheme).
scheme
aster than P2K chassis
Cost is higher
Runs @ 1/4 amps each
For anyone that isn't sure, this is all you need to correct the problem....from Litchfield Station or any other LHS.
http://www.litchfieldstation.com/xcart/product.php?productid=999003095&cat=0&page=1
TA462 & Brakie,
Comm on guys, just forget it. Everyone chose their own road with the P2K models. Ta462, you and I stand on the same thinking about the early Proto models. And Brakie is right, they were being sold for $29.99 and cheap "buy it nows" on ebay. Heck I snagged up like 20 of the ones in the road names I wanted at that price. Being able to repair 5 loco's for $10, that was a no brainer. As far as your opinion Brakie? Hey P2K left a bad taste in your mouth, no big deal. You have your opinion of the Proto's, and other people have theirs, Its like argueing over Ford, GM, and Chrysler. Everyone is going to have an opinion on whats good and whats bad, its going to happen.
A year ago I was at a train show, and a small vender had like maybe 50 Proto models in all kinds of different road, and he was selling them for like $25, I picked up 4 of them knowing they had cracked gears in them, these were brand new never run. I also had 2 guys ask me if I knew anything about the engines, and got this big long talk about quality issues and cracked gears, think they thought I didn't know anything about the cracked gears. I brought them home and one out of 4 had gear problems, but I changed out all the wheel gears in all 4 units to be on the safe side.
Brakie, I understand where your coming from, buying a product that seemed to be bad from the start, does put a thorn in your saddle, been there done that, way to many times. Had that problem with my Harley I bought brand new in 2002, fought with them for 2 years until they had to replace the whole motor. But I still like the HD company, but thats me. I respect your thoughts on what you think. Hope people keep selling off their Proto's cheap, they will find a home with the people like TA and I who like to tinker with things. I like my Atlas and Kato models to, and will always cherish my supply of BB Athearns.
ICRR
TA462 BRAKIE TA462,What you fail to realize is I did replace some with Athearn gears since I read and heard some of the replacement gears was cracked so,I opt out and bought Athearn gears up to the 17th loco to have crack gears..I then said the H with 'em and sold 'em at a lost because the word was out on the street about the crack gear issue... Believe as you will and call me what you will but,it was 30.... Again the ONLY thing I have against P2K was the crack gears.. I have even recommended their EMD and Alco switchers. You need a GP9? The P2K is the only '9 in town..EVERYBODY knows that.Same for the SD7/9s. A funny thought cross my mind..Its ok to bash Bachmann,Athearn,Atlas,Kato for their bo-bos but,not the former LL gear problem? So you sold your loco's at a loss because you didn't want to do the two minute fix on them that wouldn't have cost you a penny to fix? LOL, let me know if you have anything else that you can't fix that you want to sell. I think its OK to bash any company that doesn't stand behind their products but in Life Like's case they went way above my expectations, even though they have a life time warranty by replacing every single cracked gear that was brought to their attention. I don't think its fair to Life Like or Walthers to bash their products that they fully stand behind. You probably got some bad advice from your train club buddies, who probably bought your loco's and your still angry about the soaking they gave you. Don't blame Proto for your foolish mistake. The next time you want to bash Proto just think about what other manufacturer stands behind their product like Proto does. Also remember how easy it would have been to fix your own loco's instead of how much money you lost because you didn't want to fix them.
BRAKIE TA462,What you fail to realize is I did replace some with Athearn gears since I read and heard some of the replacement gears was cracked so,I opt out and bought Athearn gears up to the 17th loco to have crack gears..I then said the H with 'em and sold 'em at a lost because the word was out on the street about the crack gear issue... Believe as you will and call me what you will but,it was 30.... Again the ONLY thing I have against P2K was the crack gears.. I have even recommended their EMD and Alco switchers. You need a GP9? The P2K is the only '9 in town..EVERYBODY knows that.Same for the SD7/9s. A funny thought cross my mind..Its ok to bash Bachmann,Athearn,Atlas,Kato for their bo-bos but,not the former LL gear problem?
TA462,What you fail to realize is I did replace some with Athearn gears since I read and heard some of the replacement gears was cracked so,I opt out and bought Athearn gears up to the 17th loco to have crack gears..I then said the H with 'em and sold 'em at a lost because the word was out on the street about the crack gear issue...
Believe as you will and call me what you will but,it was 30....
Again the ONLY thing I have against P2K was the crack gears..
I have even recommended their EMD and Alco switchers.
You need a GP9? The P2K is the only '9 in town..EVERYBODY knows that.Same for the SD7/9s.
A funny thought cross my mind..Its ok to bash Bachmann,Athearn,Atlas,Kato for their bo-bos but,not the former LL gear problem?
So you sold your loco's at a loss because you didn't want to do the two minute fix on them that wouldn't have cost you a penny to fix? LOL, let me know if you have anything else that you can't fix that you want to sell.
I think its OK to bash any company that doesn't stand behind their products but in Life Like's case they went way above my expectations, even though they have a life time warranty by replacing every single cracked gear that was brought to their attention. I don't think its fair to Life Like or Walthers to bash their products that they fully stand behind. You probably got some bad advice from your train club buddies, who probably bought your loco's and your still angry about the soaking they gave you. Don't blame Proto for your foolish mistake. The next time you want to bash Proto just think about what other manufacturer stands behind their product like Proto does. Also remember how easy it would have been to fix your own loco's instead of how much money you lost because you didn't want to fix them.
Actually I sold them at a train show not my club buddies who was having the same problems..
When word hits the street that the GP7/9/30 had crack gears you couldn't give 'em away..Why else do you think they was being dumped for $29.95 new from several on line dealers and going dirt cheap on e-Bay?
So,your insinuations and straw man argument doesn't hold water for knowledgeable modelers that is well aware of the past GP7/9/30 gear issue..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Cisco Kid Oh man, some people have gotten the wrong end of the stick on this one! Don't be put off by the issue of gears on any Proto 2000. As has been said many times in this thread, the repair is extremely easy. And as every hobby shop and supplier knows about the issue, there is almost no chance that you won't be supplied with replacement parts for free if you need them. And as I said, I have even had every Ebay seller send me money for replacement parts. I own more than two dozen older P2Ks. About half have needed one or more gears replaced. They are the mainstay of my 97 locos (after my Katos.) I would never consider NOT purchasing an old one if I needed it. I have a parts drawer with replacement gears. Moreover, the older P2K when they come up in good condition on Ebay can be the best bargains around. If you get one as old stock NIB from a shop, they know the score and should stand by the product no questions.
Oh man, some people have gotten the wrong end of the stick on this one!
Don't be put off by the issue of gears on any Proto 2000. As has been said many times in this thread, the repair is extremely easy. And as every hobby shop and supplier knows about the issue, there is almost no chance that you won't be supplied with replacement parts for free if you need them. And as I said, I have even had every Ebay seller send me money for replacement parts.
I own more than two dozen older P2Ks. About half have needed one or more gears replaced. They are the mainstay of my 97 locos (after my Katos.) I would never consider NOT purchasing an old one if I needed it. I have a parts drawer with replacement gears. Moreover, the older P2K when they come up in good condition on Ebay can be the best bargains around.
If you get one as old stock NIB from a shop, they know the score and should stand by the product no questions.
Hey thanks cisco, I really want them and after reading the good and the bad, I'm gonna go ahead and order them, I've read more good than bad and of course it's easy enough to get parts if need be. Besides look at all the help I can get right here on this forum if I have problems! Thanks, Jim
Glad I looked in here, I was just going to order 2 Proto 2000 GP 38's. Now I'm not so sure, how can I tell if they are from old stock? These are supposed be to new in the box1
Cisco Kid Lots of stories, but in speaking to a Walthers repair rep who assured me he was a first hand witness, it was an unwittingly small bore being made by just one of the drilling and assembly units. That's why they will crack at any time even later in the future, even just sitting NIB on the LHS shelf. The excess potential energy created when the press sets the gear on a too small hub remains in the molecular structure of the little hub of the plastic gear, and then releases as the plastic ages....whether it is ever used or not. The aging plastic is not able to withstand the forces contained within it.
Lots of stories, but in speaking to a Walthers repair rep who assured me he was a first hand witness, it was an unwittingly small bore being made by just one of the drilling and assembly units. That's why they will crack at any time even later in the future, even just sitting NIB on the LHS shelf.
The excess potential energy created when the press sets the gear on a too small hub remains in the molecular structure of the little hub of the plastic gear, and then releases as the plastic ages....whether it is ever used or not. The aging plastic is not able to withstand the forces contained within it.
These gears are made from acetel, most often refered to as celcon or delrin. This material has some inteesting shrinkage characteristics. Not being there when the tooling was made for the original gears I can only make an assumtion that the material specs were not right for the calculations for the tooling. Something that could have easily happened is they specked the wrong grade of material. The acetel family has over 100 different grade levels. Whithin these levels there are different shrinkage rates that ned to be accounted for when the tooling is made. In the plant where I work we have annealing ovens that we "cure" our acetel parts in to speed up the shrinkage problem. Unfortunatly, the shrinkage never really stops happening.. It occurs on a sliding scale starting out with a large amount when first out of the mold to almost unmeasurable amounts years later. In a press fit situation such as these parts, a dimensional error of .001" could spell the difference between a successful part and a failure.
IIRC a problem was that Life-Like stuff was being made by two different manufacturers, so that for example the E-units generally ran great without trouble, but the GP's seemed to have issues. In my experience, even Proto GP's that don't have cracked gears aren't going to run as well as Atlas GP's.
armchair I had seen on here some posts about some of the Proto engines having cracked gears . Which gears were being referred to ? I purchased 4 sd 45's new & tested them on my test track. 2 outta' the 4 wouldn't run right . One seemed to be binding inside & the other seem to be slipping on one truck. I haven't done anything to them yet as I don't know whether to send 'em back or what. Are these just lemons or does proto put out 2nd quality stuff ? I usually buy Atlas & Kato with no problems. These are Ho scale.
I had seen on here some posts about some of the Proto engines having cracked gears . Which gears were being referred to ? I purchased 4 sd 45's new & tested them on my test track. 2 outta' the 4 wouldn't run right . One seemed to be binding inside & the other seem to be slipping on one truck. I haven't done anything to them yet as I don't know whether to send 'em back or what. Are these just lemons or does proto put out 2nd quality stuff ? I usually buy Atlas & Kato with no problems. These are Ho scale.
You're a 'worry wart'. - Of ALL the potential problems you may encounter, this is the most easily fixed. A replacement 'drop in':. Since you're into a hobby, you are expected to have some talents. It takes me longer to plug-in handrails on a new Kato, than drop in all new axle gears..
Plastic 'shrinks'with age and binds down on hard metal axles. Some crack.. The alternative is non-gripping, and slipping. I had a brass engine that deveoped a cracked Nylon gear. It cost me $150 to re-cut a replacement gear...
The alternative was to have an engine I could not run. (Brass engine importers generally do not stock.replacement parts.)... Boo hoo.
SO don't buyy any P2K's., Leave them for us..
ICRR1964 There were several talks on what caused this to happen, from wrong type of grease, to small of a bore hole in the gear, and abuse to the loco. .
There were several talks on what caused this to happen, from wrong type of grease, to small of a bore hole in the gear, and abuse to the loco. .
TA462 I have a lot of Proto 2000 loco's and I think they are one of the best detailed and best performing loco's available. Sure there was a problem with the GP series and a few others having cracked gears but I knew that before I bought them. The problem was fixed years ago but because Proto flooded the market with their loco's the cracked gear issue still pops up because someone bought a new loco that is really 5 or more years old. People really need to give it a rest, the problem was fixed years ago but some people still feel the urge to rag on Proto. Brakie, you need to lighten up on your Proto bashing. Every time somebody mentions anything negative about Proto you got to jump right in there and state your claim. I remember when it was only 10 locomotives you had that had a gear issue, now your up to 30? Your story just seems to get bigger all the time. Nobody cares anymore....... Now for the original question, I own 9 Proto SD45's and one did have a issue with a gear. No it wasn't cracked, SD45's don't have cracked gear issues. My problem was one of the gears in the leading truck had a tooth that was deformed from the factory, I emailed them about the problem I found and they sent me a package of gears, FOR FREE. Once you find your problem your going to find they will pull a ton of weight. The Proto SD45's are one of the best for pulling power.
I have a lot of Proto 2000 loco's and I think they are one of the best detailed and best performing loco's available. Sure there was a problem with the GP series and a few others having cracked gears but I knew that before I bought them. The problem was fixed years ago but because Proto flooded the market with their loco's the cracked gear issue still pops up because someone bought a new loco that is really 5 or more years old. People really need to give it a rest, the problem was fixed years ago but some people still feel the urge to rag on Proto.
Brakie, you need to lighten up on your Proto bashing. Every time somebody mentions anything negative about Proto you got to jump right in there and state your claim. I remember when it was only 10 locomotives you had that had a gear issue, now your up to 30? Your story just seems to get bigger all the time. Nobody cares anymore.......
Now for the original question, I own 9 Proto SD45's and one did have a issue with a gear. No it wasn't cracked, SD45's don't have cracked gear issues. My problem was one of the gears in the leading truck had a tooth that was deformed from the factory, I emailed them about the problem I found and they sent me a package of gears, FOR FREE. Once you find your problem your going to find they will pull a ton of weight. The Proto SD45's are one of the best for pulling power.
Your right at first its was 10 and then bing,bing bing they started to fail..
As for the bashing did you read my other comments? I guess not.
Now if you think having $1500.00-$1600.00 worth of locomotives that had gear problems either from the box or after use doesn't leave a bitter taste then think again..
Again the only thing I hold against P2K locomotives is the crack gear issue I had..For the money I had invested in those locomotives that should have never happen.
BTW..Like you I use to defend P2K when all was well then I started having the crack gear issues others was bitterly complaining about.
The cracked gear problem was one of the main issues with P2K's for along time, still is to. Some owners were very mad about the whole issue, and were boxing them up and sending them back to the manufacture to be repaired. I remember when my first unit started clicking and thumping, I took it apart the whole thing and inspected it, never found a thing, then put the engine back together, and it was worse then. I was ticked off, but did some research via the net, and found the problem and how to fix it easy. MR forum had little info on this at the time, but some MR discussion groups had pictures and trouble shooting ideas. I popped the covers off the bottom of the trucks and removed all 4 wheel sets. You had to look real close, but you could find the crack in the gears.
There were several talks on what caused this to happen, from wrong type of grease, to small of a bore hole in the gear, and abuse to the loco. I contacted my LHS where I bought the first 2 units of P2K's, and they wanted to send them back to the factory. I thought no way, and asked can't we just get the gears. So thats what I did, took about a week to get all new gears. It only took about 10 minutes to change al 4 wheel sets out per unit, and if you use the "Athearn Gears" it cost like $2.50 per unit.
Some owners of the P2K's were mad about this issue for along time and labeled them as junk, worthless, or poor quality. Thats going to happen no matter how good a manufacture is. Everyone has their favorite manufacture. I have Atlas, Athearn, Bachmann, BLI, Spectrum, Kato, old school models and a few brass. They all have had an issue at one time or the other, its going to happen, motor, gear, lube, electrical, or whatever kinds of problems. I still run half my layout in DC and the other half is DCC, so lets not get going on the DCC issue all the DCC/Sound equipped RTR units have had.
You just have to take the good with the bad is all and make up your own mind. Personally, I have had very good luck with my P2K's, besides split gears, it was really no big deal to me.
Hi,
There was a list of the problem locos on this forum a couple years ago. I have several GP7/9s and called Walthers and they quickly sent 30 plus wheelsets to me. The problem was quickly resolved with each loco taking about 10 minutes to fix and check.
Walthers did a darn nice job in fessing up to the problem and offering the free parts. For the record, just about every popular manufacturer out there has had their particular problem at one time or another, but the good folks at Walthers (and Athearn and Atlas and BLI in my experience) handled them nicely.
I would give them a call on this, as they would know exactly which ones were affected.
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
cudaken Arm Chair, I have never bought a Atlas or Kato engine yet. But, I have PCM, BLI, Athearn RTR, Old BB boxes and Proto 1000's and 2000's. All the high end stuff like $600.00 PCM's have had problems. On the other hand my old Protos take a licking and keep on ticking. I all so bought 4 PK BL 2's used (made in the 80's) and all came in with craked gears. After refitting them with Athearn's gears they pull strong. Far as dry gear's, none of my new Protos have had that problem yet. BLI's on the other hand, well have had 3 dry as a bone. Cuda Ken
Arm Chair, I have never bought a Atlas or Kato engine yet. But, I have PCM, BLI, Athearn RTR, Old BB boxes and Proto 1000's and 2000's. All the high end stuff like $600.00 PCM's have had problems. On the other hand my old Protos take a licking and keep on ticking.
I all so bought 4 PK BL 2's used (made in the 80's) and all came in with craked gears. After refitting them with Athearn's gears they pull strong.
Far as dry gear's, none of my new Protos have had that problem yet. BLI's on the other hand, well have had 3 dry as a bone.
Cuda Ken
Ken,I hear more complaints about P2K locomotive then any other brand the complaints range from the famous crack gears to "gear ratio of the month" that LL used.
There are numerous detail errors (saith the diesel gurus) on just about every P2K loco if that stuff worries you.
My biggest complaint and the reason I won't buy any P2K loco is 30 out of 30 geeps(a mixture of GP7/9/30s) I had came with crack gears.Some from the box and other cracked over time with use.I had roughly $1500.00-$1600.00 in these locomotives..
Beyond that they are beautifully detailed locomotives.
And for what its worth the P2K GP7 blows the Atlas GP7 out of the water detail wise.
I hate Rust
Yes, that typical gear problem is the gear right on the center of the axle.....a little black gear. Sometimes the crack is hard to see, but as someone else pointed out, the usual test is to try to spin them with your thumb while still mounted in the loco.
I just checked my packages to be sure, and the bag of replacement gears I have is labelled Athearn SD40-2, and these work for both Proto 2000 and Stewarts. The price shows $2.50 for 6 gears, which you then just press into place with your fingers once you pull off the cracked gear. Then you need your wheel gauge to set them correctly. Easy to do...(and if you are going to r&r some older locos it is a good idea to completely remove the wheel sets for a thorough cleaning of the old grease in the gear case and gunk on the "tires" anyway. What you will often find is not a lack of grease but that most people have loaded up way too much old grease in the gear case and it starts migrating out.)
The Katos and Bachmann that I have replaced have much smaller metal axles and these two are interchangeable....at least for the problem models I have had. Newer models are different.
I can't recall how much Walthers charged for the 2-pacs of the entire new wheel set, but it was a few dollars per pack.
Sometimes a loco with a cracked gear will just run poorly, slowly or with a bit of extra noise, but often will "hop" and snap down the track very noticeably as the gear malfunctions.
Cold Steel, I would definately return the H-44 if it has problems, theres a lot of difference in price between it & those sd-45's , I got a great price on them . The sound equipped protos I have run flawlessly.
Cisco ; so the bad gears are usually the axle gears ? I have a huge collection of older proto locos, some have not even been test run. knowing my luck , there's some bad news in those boxes. I was planning a huge locomotive salvage industry on my new layout anyway !
CK wrote:But dont despair over the P2K locos. I have had the exact thing (for reasons unknown) in more than one other Stewart and a couple of Katos. Go figure.
----------------------------------
I wonder if there is a jobber that makes gears for all brands? I have heard and read reports of crack gears in Atlas,Athearn and Bachmann locos.
Hey armchair,
You have encountered one of the most common topics on the forum. It comes up all the time.
I have put up this info couple of years ago, but it bears repeating:
ALL the older P2K models are prone to this problem. It can happen to one or all the axls/gears on a loco. And it can happen on a NIB oldstock loco AND to a loco that you have right now that runs fine, but will develop a cracked gear in the future.
Not every P2K older axle will crack. The problem is that a glitch in one LifeLike press (before the days of Walters involvment) resulted in a very big swak of these wheels being pressed onto the gear with holes that are too small (by an infintesimal amount) in the gear. Unfortunately no one noticed for quite awhile as the axles will sit nicely in the loco on the shelf and then just pop open (tiny cracks mind you)...whether the loco was ever used or not. And they can pop open year later even today on one sitting on your layout. I suppose it may have a bit to do with temperature or humidity.
The flawed axles/gears were mixed endlessly with good ones and it is just the luck of the draw what comes up on your loco. I have had old P2K with no problems, one axel gone and some with all four kaput! Those of us who use a lot of P2K take it as a matter of course and keep a supply of replacements on hand.
At first I bought entire new axle assemblies from Walthes modestly priced but then found I really just needed the new gear which can be had for even less from your LHS. Athearn makes gear that will work well.
But dont despair over the P2K locos. I have had the exact thing (for reasons unknown) in more than one other Stewart and a couple of Katos. Go figure.
I buy some locos on Ebay. Many sellers indicate they have already replaced the gears/axles, and every other one that sold me a dud, refunded more than enough of my payment to order replacement gears. And hobby shops will not quibble at all.
Thanks for everones' input . I disassembled one of the locos and fixed it like Tom had posted earlier. It looked to me like the coupler for the driveshaft that is pressed into flywheel had never been inserted at the factory,so much for quality control . It should be ok now. The other loco was so dry inside the gear towers it wasn't even funny. Labelle took care of that. I know I should've sent them both back, 6 degrees outside today,so I kinda enjoyed tinkering with them. These are nicely detailed locos for the bucks. Randy...........