American Graffiti --- The Final Frontier

[jlampke]

Graffiti is vandalism...... trash..... plain and simple. It disgusts me every time I see it. The people who do that: I'd like to see their reaction to someone doing the same thing to their car or house. You'll never see it on my lay-out.
GreyLoess..... bill mathewson..... Run for office. You've got my vote!!

[jlampke]

GreyLoess...... bill mathewson.... You gents should run for office. I'd vote for you!! I'll never forget the images of various groups of Muslims dancing in the streets for joy when the World Trade Center was attacked......... Never. Remember Munich '72. There is no difference between the KKK, *** and Islam. They all advocate hatred.
Getting back to the topic: Graffiti (or should I say vandalism). It disgusts me every time I see it. The tra***hat does that: I'd like to do that to their cars or houses and see how they like it. You'll never see any tra***hat celebrates vandalism or decadence on my lay-out.

[CBQ_Guy]

QUOTE: Good one CBQ, I forgot about all of that old fashioned relatively innocent stuff. Most of that kind of thing wasn't on the trains, but rather on stationary objects near the tracks. So it is prototypical regardless of era to a limited extent. In those days it was done with a brush, when was the spray paint can invented????

It was nice to see that this topic took a rest, but I see that it is awake again, so here we go.[swg]

It didn't take a rest so much as I'm WAY behind on my email lists, forums, newsgroups, rec.models.railroad, etc. Just trying to get caught up.

I don't know when the spray cans came out. I suspect you may be a hair older than me, I'm 50, and my recollections of all this would be around the early to middle 1960's, I suppose. I know they were available in the early sixties because I used to buy the small spray cans of Testors paint when I was building the AMT automobile kits. I hear they passed a law in Chicago many years ago that they can't even sell spray cans in the city due to all the "tagging". My wife and I were both "born and raised" on the south side of Chicago, but we moved to this area back in 1979 to buy an affordable house and start a family.

One other memory of the period, as kids we would go by the tracks behind Campbell Soup on the south side where I lived. We would watch a slow moving freight train as it passed waiting for the caboose. Then we would all yell, "ANY CHALK?". Many times the guy in the caboose would toss us a handfull of that large chalk they used for marking cars. Then we would take it and go draw on the street the rest of the afternoon (it was a dead end street, btw!).

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CBQ_Guy

QUOTE: Originally posted by easyaces

When I was a kid growing up in Chicago during the late 50' early 60's there was little or none in the way of graffitti anywhere, and if you got caught in any of the rail yards you usually got a load of rocksalt in the backside from some railroad cop, and then a trip to the local police station. Its come to this through the years that things had gone lax, and the railroads just don't have the manpower to police the yards like they used to , hence the taggers have a field day & more graffitti shows up on the cars. Now wether its going to look "prototypical" with graffitti on your rolling stock is up to the individual. I'm sure the debate will go on here with some ferver.

I grew up there in the same period but there definitely was some grafitti. It was more written than pictures, though. Most of it I remember seeing was spray painted on the walls under a RR "viaduct", as they're called in Chi-town.

Fairly harmless stuff, like "Kilroy Was Here", "Bob Loves Betty" (usually in a heart with an arrow through it), "Go Cougars". Walther's used to sell decals like this, maybe they still do.

And then some of the gang stuff like "Spanish Cobras", "Latin Kings" and many times you would see "c/s" sprayed under those gang ones. I asked a guy in high school once what the "c/s" stood for and he said "can't score", as in if anyone sprayed something else in response to the gang thing, it didn't count, if I understood him correctly.

Good one CBQ, I forgot about all of that old fashioned relatively innocent stuff. Most of that kind of thing wasn't on the trains, but rather on stationary objects near the tracks. So it is prototypical regardless of era to a limited extent. In those days it was done with a brush, when was the spray paint can invented????

It was nice to see that this topic took a rest, but I see that it is awake again, so here we go.[swg]

[CBQ_Guy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by easyaces

When I was a kid growing up in Chicago during the late 50' early 60's there was little or none in the way of graffitti anywhere, and if you got caught in any of the rail yards you usually got a load of rocksalt in the backside from some railroad cop, and then a trip to the local police station. Its come to this through the years that things had gone lax, and the railroads just don't have the manpower to police the yards like they used to , hence the taggers have a field day & more graffitti shows up on the cars. Now wether its going to look "prototypical" with graffitti on your rolling stock is up to the individual. I'm sure the debate will go on here with some ferver.

I grew up there in the same period but there definitely was some grafitti. It was more written than pictures, though. Most of it I remember seeing was spray painted on the walls under a RR "viaduct", as they're called in Chi-town.

Fairly harmless stuff, like "Kilroy Was Here", "Bob Loves Betty" (usually in a heart with an arrow through it), "Go Cougars". Walther's used to sell decals like this, maybe they still do.

And then some of the gang stuff like "Spanish Cobras", "Latin Kings" and many times you would see "c/s" sprayed under those gang ones. I asked a guy in high school once what the "c/s" stood for and he said "can't score", as in if anyone sprayed something else in response to the gang thing, it didn't count, if I understood him correctly.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Hey guys, while I have no love lost over the idiot in the White House, my rant did not single him out as the sole source fo this country's problems. That can be traced back at least 10 Presidents, all the way to Truman. Each one piling on more layers of crap on to the previous pile. All of this started before there were muslim extremists. Back then there were communists. My rant was both non partisan and bi partisan, and extends to the Congress as well.

I actually though that Bush might not be so bad afterall, for a few short weeks after 9/11, but then the retribution started. I still wasn't upset with the acton in Afghanistan, but Iraq was too far. Why not just invade Saudi Arabia??? They have a very oppressive regime there too.

To all of those so quick to use our military to teach the world a lesson about America, I would say that WE HAVE WON NOTHING!!!! And our actions have only gone to **** off most of the world, including some of our friends and allies, though they may be too polite to say so.

I DO LOVE THIS COUNTRY, AND I DO SUPPORT OUR MILITARY, BUT I DO NOT AGREE WITH THE MISSION UPON WHICH THEY HAVE BEEN SENT. Do the words Viet Nam ring a bell??? At least Iraq has oil.

My problem with this whole situation is that it is beginning to effect our freedom here at home. Activities that we as Americans once did so freely and easily, have now become suspicious. Reports of our railfanning are being taken, and we are being watched. I haven't changed my habits, the railroads have changed their's!!!! I am no more a danger to the railroads today than I was on September 10, 2001, but the hysteria created by that event has caused a gross over reaction.

I think it is a huge waste of resources to go looking for a NEEDLE IN A HAYSTACK THE SIZE OF AMERICA!!!!

Although I am firmly against George Bush and his friends in the oil business, I am only slightly less opposed to the Democrats offering of John Kerry. No matter who wins, America is doomed to 4 more years of crap. Our system of government has become so firmly entrenched in Washington, that the two parties have managed to offer up dumb and dumber as our choices for leader of the free world. My problem is I don't know which is which.[swg]

Remember, personal attacks are out of bounds here. I haven't attacked anyone personally here with my words, except maybe the President, but he's used to that, it's part of his job. SO PLEASE BE CAREFUL, BUT SPEAK YOUR MIND, even if it isn't totally about railroads. There were actually a couple of railroad references there, they may just be a little hard to find amongst the political.[;)]

[Anonymous]

hey Gray Loess - You said it well! The Kerry. Kerry. quite contrary flip-flop crowd will do anything to try to unseat the current administration-they've been courting the self-serving liberal press like CNN, Brokaw, Jennings, et al to spout their distortions and deceipts on a sadly poorly informed American audience. The problem is that a substantial segment of US citizens simply have too shallow a grip on the issues at hand, whether they are immediate or long term. They live for today and year after year, if they vote, they cast theirs for the samepolitical machine that promises to represent their 'special' interests, yet they continue to get more and more complacent every election season because their vote seemingly didn't get noticed. It doesn't dawn on them that their chosen party only wants to unseat the incubents at any costs, and lying to the American populace is not only acceptable, but the norm. Wake up America! Uncle Sam is not chartered with the responsibility to support your life style. If you haven't attained the status and finacial level you think you are entitled to, stop blaming and get your *** to work. The political machine will spin any story to get your vote. There are no guarantees in life unless you chose a Communistic place to call home where everybody is assured a mediocre existence and little else. Consider this -- the economic boom during most of the Clinton admin. was driven by 'dot-com' industry and all of its spinoffs, many of them paper-only companies that used a creative prospectus to attract gullible investors to throw money at their lies. To believe that the Bush admin. has caused an economic downturn is simply ignorance, just as much as it is ignorant to credit Clinton with the economic boom of the '90s. Both the boom and the bust were inevitable because it was driven by big business, and the investment community fueled it with their money and yours. When many of the dot-coms got deleted a domino effect caused an implosion on our overall economy. Poorly and misinformed people are speaking out re: our involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan without any understanding of why the US is there. What would have been the alternatives? Should we just roll over and ignore how those hateful barbarians have been killing the 'infidels' all over the world including their own people and ours? The fact that our suppossed European allies had not 'agreed' with us has nothing to do with their moral disapproval, but was strictly a selfish financial decision since their governments and industries stand to lose millions upon millions with the deposing of the Saddam regime. And the UN is but a sad shadow of its former self and is now controlled by a wacked -out group of questionable integrity without the resolve to make our planet a more peaceful place. The US shouldn't be concerned with being liked by every rogue third -world nation or the 'good ol' boys running those bastions of supposed human liberties throughout Europe. For a railfan to assert that their freedoms are in jeopardy because they cannot tresspass on railroad property to photograph trains is ludicrous. The US is at war and sleazy terrorists have vowed to shed American blood on our soil (and have). They have identified the desire to disrupt our transportation system, esp. the railroads. The railroad police and local cops are just doing their job-protecting us. For too long, the liberal side of our populace has asserted that it is okay to tolerate most anything , and frankly it is exemplified by the absurd, yet disturbing and enthusiastic tolerance and even appreciation of the disfiguring of personal and public property with spray paint by a bunch of losers. Just because it involves trains doesn't make it evenly remotely acceptable or cool in a defiant sense. . .Don't get sucker-bated into believing those who are politicizing the Iraq conflict with blatant disregard to the safety of our troops or our national security. Look beneath the surface when the left-winger wackos distort the facts that our economy is recovering in a not-out-of control, substantial long-term fashion. That is unless you believe that Al Gore invented the Internet and Bill Clinton made it the centerpoint of his economic policy, or that Kerry is a war hero to be admired because of his four months in 'Nam and his infamous 'tossing of the medals at the White House' when he returned to demonstrate against that conflict. (Did you know that he didn't have the integrity to throw his own medals, but threw someone elses? Perhaps he was saving them just in case he needed to flip-flop on the issue and proudly (sic) flaunt them at a later date.) Perhaps this is not the 'forum' for such discussion but I am tired of reading stupid statements by those who think it is cool to bash and trash, slowly turning our country into a cesspool. And Kerry will only hasten America's fall from grace. If I've pixxxed off of a few of you-great - for at least you are examining your thought and opinions, too.

[AntonioFP45]

Gray Loess


Solid and very well put! [#ditto] [:)][tup]

[Anonymous]

Jeez Louise, I thot we were discussing TRAINS around here, that this was one place at least that was a safe haven where we could talk about our HOBBIES, and have some relief and relaxation from all the partisan politics out there. Guess not.

No country in history has amassed more power and abused it less, and has been more of a force for good in the world than the United States of America. If you don't believe that, then I hope your On-Star system will be able to give you directions to the nearest international airport, so you can go someplace else where you'll be obviously be a lot happier.

In the past two-plus years, we've won two wars against countries that harbored Muslim fanatics, freed 50 million people from the clutches of sadistic and brutal regimes, captured Saddam Hussein, immobilized Osama bin Laden, destroyed al-Qaida's base, and begun to create the only functioning democracy in the Middle East other than Israel. Not bad for a bunch of "rude, self-centered, egotistical, bastards."

Grow up. Appeasement in the interests of cultivating a "favorable" world opinion is what was one of the main root causes of the 9-11 tragedy in the first place. Yes, our government's current foreign policy has given great cause to be paranoid - if you live in places like Syria, Iran, North Korea, and Libya. In my book, having those guys wetting their pants is a good thing.

Face it, not every foreign country is going to love us, no matter what we do - in fact most if not all of them are just plain jealous of us. (Some of them, like France, only care about us when we're saving their butts from extermination.) But we can make bloody well sure they respect us. And if they don't want to respect us, then they will learn to fear us. (see above)

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go send another check to Bush/Cheney '04.

Proud of our troops, proud of my president, proud of my country, proud of the job he's done to protect it...and will continue to do for another four years.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CoertSmit

How about coal gondola's, like coalporters, are these likely to be tagged? Sorry about the many questions, but it isn't easy for me to go to the nearest North American Coalhauler and see how their coalporters look.

I decided to locate a piesce of my layout in the suburbs of a city so crimerates could be quite high in this area [:)]

Just a couple of hours ago I was dropping my kids off at their mother's house, and had to stop for the coal train heading to the local powerplant. I had seen this response before I left, and there was, the train. A few of the cars had a little graffiti, and some of that had actually been painted over, but most of the cars were clean.

Because that train doesn't stop or get broken up much, really the only place it could pick up graffiti, is when it sits on the holding tracks by the power plant before and after unloading. It would be very easy to hit those cars, as the holding tracks are in a rather secluded place. Maybe the local kids just haven't discovered this fact, or maybe it's the fact that the 3 local cops know everyone in town.[;)]

[Anonymous]

I hate Graffiti YUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DOGGY

[Anonymous]

How about coal gondola's, like coalporters, are these likely to be tagged? Sorry about the many questions, but it isn't easy for me to go to the nearest North American Coalhauler and see how their coalporters look.

I decided to locate a piesce of my layout in the suburbs of a city so crimerates could be quite high in this area [:)]

[vsmith]

Nope, I'm modeling 1950's Arizona Narrow Gauge, anyone caught vandelizing will get thrown in the Hoos-gow!

[Big_Boy_4005]

Well Gray, in my case I probably was on railroad property, but there was no clear demarkation, and I was only about 15 feet from the public street. The track in the foreground of the picture above, is a local switch lead, and I was next to it, knowing full well that there would be no trains on that track, with good visability and scanner in hand.

---

Please excuse the following political rant.

To say that the railroads (and everyone else) are a "little nervous" is a gross understatement. Flat out PARANOID is more like it, and I for one think it is rediculous. North American railroads really make poor terrorist targets anyway, if you stop and think about it.

Terrorists like high profile targets with lots of people, or ones that will cause severe economic fallout. Amtrak doesn't qualify, nor do any of the freight haulers for that matter.

The railroads have had plenty of accidents involving chemical spills that had nothing to with terrorism, they simply clean up the mess, and move on.

That's what we did with 9/11, except for the fact that current administration continues to spend money and waste time chasing down every red herring that our "intelligence system" thinks that it has detected.

This has caused the US to run rampant over the face of the globe, further enflaming world opinion, and calling attention to the fact that Americans are rude, self-centered, egotistical, bastards.

We know, that we as individuals, are not like that (for the most part), but when it comes to the rest of the world, our government speaks for us, and that is what it has been saying about us since World War II, or longer. Our government has gone on to say that we are better than everyone else, and if we want something we WILL GET IT at any cost, PERIOD!!!!!

The term "protecting US interests" has gotten this country into more trouble in the last 100 years, than most people could imagine. The more I think about it, the more I think that our government's forign policy has given great cause to be paranoid.

The only problem I see is, that regardless of the outcome of the election in November, World opinion of America will not change, however a good house cleaning in Washington DC couldn't hurt. It might even help to repair some of our tarnished image around the world.

WAKE UP AMERICA, AND VOTE AGAINST EVERY INCUMBENT IN NOVEMBER!!!! SHOW THE WORLD THAT AMERICANS ARE DECENT PEOPLE!!!! YOUR FREEDOM DEPENDS ON IT!!!!!

This political action message is brought to you by RAILFANS OF AMERICA.[swg]

[Anonymous]

I've never had an encounter with a railroad employee, since I stay off railroad property. But I was parked off the side of the road railfanning one day last year, and a cop pulled in behind me to ask what I was doing taking pictures of the trains. I guess in a post-9/11 world, everybody is a little nervous nowadays.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: The only pieces that are immune are locomotives.

That is true for the most part, but I have seen some exceptions.
While in Owatonna last summer, I saw a Southern Pacific locomotive with nearly the whole side covered in graffiti.
And a couple months ago, I saw a CSX engine here with the whole side tagged.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cjm89

QUOTE: Originally posted by dougal

QUOTE: Originally posted by easyaces
Its come to this through the years that things had gone lax, and the railroads just don't have the manpower to police the yards like they used to

Well it seems like they have enough when you hear about KCS arresting anybody with a camera or notepad near their tracks.

There goes my railfanning trips- I live near the KCS Gateway Western tracks.

Don't panic over young Dougal's comments, it is still possible to railfan. Try to stay off railroad property, and be polite if you are approached by a railroad employee. The railroads are very edgy these days, but we don't live in a police state (yet).[:0][;)][:D]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dougal

QUOTE: Originally posted by easyaces
Its come to this through the years that things had gone lax, and the railroads just don't have the manpower to police the yards like they used to

Well it seems like they have enough when you hear about KCS arresting anybody with a camera or notepad near their tracks.

There goes my railfanning trips- I live near the KCS Gateway Western tracks.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Mark, once again, I was next to the track on Friday taking pictures. I didn't get arrested, it was more of a "friendly chat" with a railroad employee. It was like he was just making sure that I wasn't up to any mischief. I told him that I was waiting for the Empire Builder, and that it was finally on it's way, only 90 minutes late (I was listening to my scanner).



Later that morning, on the other side of town we found this caboose as part of a tie replacement work train.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by 4884bigboy
You never see an intermodel car with graffiti on it, do you?

Well... I have seen some and it seems like more and more intermodel cars are getting sprayed.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by easyaces
Its come to this through the years that things had gone lax, and the railroads just don't have the manpower to police the yards like they used to

Well it seems like they have enough when you hear about KCS arresting anybody with a camera or notepad near their tracks.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by 4884bigboy

True, CoertSmit. You never see an intermodel car with graffiti on it, do you?

As a matter of fact I did, just yesterday. It was not very impressive though, just some simple garbage. I suspect that the taggers didn't have much time, and it wasn't really a great surface anyway. They just wanted to leave their mark.

Box cars, hoppers and auto racks seem to be most common. The only pieces that are immune are locomotives, and Amtrak, and that's only because there are always people around and they are always moving.

I think that graffiti can be classified in two distinct catagories. Simple tagging, which we are all familiar with, which may or may not be gang related, and the large colorful works, which I for one, find most interesting.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by 4884bigboy

Graffiti, YUCK! There'll be none of that on my layout, whether I model the past or present!

Same here.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by 4884bigboy

True, CoertSmit. You never see an intermodel car with graffiti on it, do you?

Exactly, thats why I'm asking the question what kind of cars will be more vulnarable.

Byt he way, the latest news form Neurenberg stated that Busch will be offering a set of punks later this year. Just give your car a half finished tag and give your punks a free spraycan from a piece of styrene. Result: another empty space on your layout filled[:)]

[Anonymous]

Does any of the "little people" manufactures offer taggers?

I model late 40's, early 50's and don't plan to put any "modern day tagger" art on my cars. I do however, plan to put God's art (some folks call it weathering) on the cars.

[Anonymous]

True, CoertSmit. You never see an intermodel car with graffiti on it, do you?

[Anonymous]

I am really interested in giving a few of my cars the graffiti-look. But first I want to know what cars are more vulnerable to those artists nowadays. I believe that especially flat surfaces atract sprayers but I can imagine that some cars are far to much on the road to be sprayed upon.

[fec153]

Hobo's would mark cars for info.

[Anonymous]

I guess my layout world does not & will not have any crime in it so to speak of. Unrealistic in some ways , but realistic in others. Graffitti is not my style.

[Anonymous]

Train Cars i would say no--But if I were to model Mass Transit -Subway it would be a entire different story. You could'nt have one car without it.