Hi all,
Great forum here and I hope to become an active participant in the near future. About 15 years ago, my father and I set out to build this Atlas 4x8 layout in my parents attic. http://www.atlasrr.com/Code100web/pages/10033.htm
I was around 16 and the time. We succesfully cut out the entire cookie cutter form, got to the point of laying down the cork roadbed and track, and even had a few test trains running. For whatever reason, we stopped at that point and never completed the thing. Maybe it was the freezing cold winters and boiling hot summers in that uninsulated attic. Or it may have been the frustration we felt as our trains kept getting derailed and couldn't seem to make it around some of the turns. Also, some of the track just didn't seem to fit right on the board.
That was then, and now I am 31 and have a son of my own. Too young to help me revive the project, but definately old enough to adore trains. Guess he takes after his father and grandfather.
I have it in my head that I want to restart and finally finish this project, but I have a few questions for the group. If you've made it this far in this post, I'm sure you'll be happy to help! :-)
+ I can't decide if I should just rip up all the track and roadbed and start from scratch with track laying part. The plans call for all sectional track, but when we started having problems, someone recomended flex-track to us. Is it worth it to scrap all the track we have and build the whole thing with flextrack? I think the few parts we replaced with flextrack were the sectoins with the radii that were too small. Is sectional track decently reliable? Would soldering help with derailments?
+ Is the right way to do this, to lay the track bed directly onto the plywood, or should we cover the whole thing with some other material first?
+ Since we're still in a relatively early stage, I'm considering cutting the layout in two, and bolting it together, so that later if we want to move it out (like to my own house when I have one big enough), it's easier to disassemble. Based on your experience, is this something worth doing?
+ After doing some reading, I've learned about DCC. Is this something recomended for beginners? Trying to decide if we should just build the whole thing with DCC or stick with the traditional model. We already have a power supply.
+ I still have somewhat of a hard time understanding how the wiring/electronics will work. With our layout, will we be able to run more than once train at a time? How do you control which train moves when, etc? Does anyone have any good links to very basic wiring resources?
I think that's about it. I would really appreciate any advice or tips you guys could share on the layout I linked above, or anything else I mentioned.
Thanks!
~H
Here are some pics of the layout from 15 years ago:
hominamad Hi all, Great forum here and I hope to become an active participant in the near future. About 15 years ago, my father and I set out to build this Atlas 4x8 layout in my parents attic. http://www.atlasrr.com/Code100web/pages/10033.htm I was around 16 and the time. We succesfully cut out the entire cookie cutter form, got to the point of laying down the cork roadbed and track, and even had a few test trains running. For whatever reason, we stopped at that point and never completed the thing. Maybe it was the freezing cold winters and boiling hot summers in that uninsulated attic. Or it may have been the frustration we felt as our trains kept getting derailed and couldn't seem to make it around some of the turns. Also, some of the track just didn't seem to fit right on the board. That was then, and now I am 31 and have a son of my own. Too young to help me revive the project, but definately old enough to adore trains. Guess he takes after his father and grandfather. I have it in my head that I want to restart and finally finish this project, but I have a few questions for the group. If you've made it this far in this post, I'm sure you'll be happy to help! :-) + I can't decide if I should just rip up all the track and roadbed and start from scratch with track laying part. The plans call for all sectional track, but when we started having problems, someone recomended flex-track to us. Is it worth it to scrap all the track we have and build the whole thing with flextrack? I think the few parts we replaced with flextrack were the sectoins with the radii that were too small. Is sectional track decently reliable? Would soldering help with derailments? + Is the right way to do this, to lay the track bed directly onto the plywood, or should we cover the whole thing with some other material first? + Since we're still in a relatively early stage, I'm considering cutting the layout in two, and bolting it together, so that later if we want to move it out (like to my own house when I have one big enough), it's easier to disassemble. Based on your experience, is this something worth doing? + After doing some reading, I've learned about DCC. Is this something recomended for beginners? Trying to decide if we should just build the whole thing with DCC or stick with the traditional model. We already have a power supply. + I still have somewhat of a hard time understanding how the wiring/electronics will work. With our layout, will we be able to run more than once train at a time? How do you control which train moves when, etc? Does anyone have any good links to very basic wiring resources? I think that's about it. I would really appreciate any advice or tips you guys could share on the layout I linked above, or anything else I mentioned. Thanks! ~H
I would replace the sectional track with flex nickel silver track - switches too. Your first pic shows a probable reason for derailments, the switch track seems slightly out of alignment with the bridge section - out of alignment is an almost guarantee for derailment.
Cutting the layout for future movement is a good idea - you're lucky to have an attic access that allowed a 4x8 in the first place!
DCC would be the way to go - for two reasons. It is far easier to run 2 or more trains with DCC than DC, and the wiring is basicaly easier than DC - blocks are not necessary except for your wye, and that wiring is an easy to install DCC module.
Kalmbach has a couple of good books on DCC, which should answer your DCC/wiring questions.
My
I'll second Lou's suggestions. Nickel-Silver flextrack and turnouts (switches, if you prefer) would be the way to go. If the cork roadbed is still in good shape, I'd leave it and just replace the track...that way you'll have the centerlines already in place to make laying the flextrack easier.
DCC would be the way to go...I'd recommend either the Digitrax Zephyr or NCE Powercab for a layout this size.
Please be sure to post pics as you go!
Robert Beaty
The Laughing Hippie
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The CF-7...a waste of a perfectly good F-unit!
Then it comes to be that the soothing light at the
end of your tunnel, Was just a freight train coming
your way. -Metallica, No Leaf Clover
I'm going to have to be a bit blunt here and disagree with the above posters. If you're having trouble laying sectional (snap) track, you're going to have more trouble laying flex track, mainly because it requires cutting at least one rail. Rail joints, be they conductive or insulated, flex or sectional track, need to be smooth and either straight or a constant curve. The first answer touched on this subject when he noted your first picture shows what he called a mismatched joint. The joint between the end of the bridge and the switch is skewed, meaning that the one rail joint is not pushed together properly. You cannot fudge a joint or track alignment by not pushing the track together completely on both rails, or you'll have the problems that you're describing with derailments. The layout you've shown in the diagram and pictures is a bit complex for a beginner, and this is probably contributing to your problems.
Since you're a beginner, there are some great on-line resources for beginners. The best I've found is on the NMRA's site (National Model Railroad Association):
http://www.nmra.org/beginner/
Check for problems like this, and make sure that both rails have gone into the railjoiner. This is a common pair of errors when most of us start out. Even if you have brass rail type track, relay the layout using what you have to see if you can get smooth joints and eliminate these problems (brass just needs to be cleaned more often). Since the track is old, go to the hobby shop and buy a couple packs of metal railjoiners and one pack of plastic railjoiners. Replace all of these when you relay the track.
Another problem can be your vertical curves (transition from a level secton to an up or down grade). They need to be a curve, not an angle and definately avoid putting these on a switch. It's hard to tell with the camera angle, but the "skew" on that joint mentioned above could be a vertical angle rather than a curve.
Good luck, and you've already found a good place to ask any questions that will come up.
Im also going to state that your environment may not be very welcoming for train running. You already stated one reason for stopping. Boiling Hot and Freezing cold.
If you dont want to spend any more than a few minutes in a train room, why bother pouring resources into something that will run you a few hundred to a few thousand of dollars and hardly used due to discomfort?
The hobby has undergone several generations of improvements and change. Our problem was brass rail and plastic frog switches. Once those went away and were nickel silver and good quality switches we were able to move on.
I see those pictures are very nice. But I bet you that heat and cold will heave that track and you will derail often.
You probably have the benefit of experience from childhood with Father building something like this, that will guide your future efforts.
Good luck!
hominamad
I have it in my head that I want to restart and finally finish this project,
I can't decide if I should just rip up all the track and roadbed and start from scratch with track laying part. The plans call for all sectional track, but when we started having problems, someone recomended flex-track to us. Is it worth it to scrap all the track we have and build the whole thing with flextrack?
I think the few parts we replaced with flextrack were the sectoins with the radii that were too small.
Is sectional track decently reliable? Would soldering help with derailments?
Is the right way to do this, to lay the track bed directly onto the plywood, or should we cover the whole thing with some other material first?
Since we're still in a relatively early stage, I'm considering cutting the layout in two, and bolting it together, so that later if we want to move it out (like to my own house when I have one big enough), it's easier to disassemble. Based on your experience, is this something worth doing?
After doing some reading, I've learned about DCC. Is this something recomended for beginners? Trying to decide if we should just build the whole thing with DCC or stick with the traditional model. We already have a power supply.
I still have somewhat of a hard time understanding how the wiring/electronics will work. With our layout, will we be able to run more than once train at a time? How do you control which train moves when, etc? Does anyone have any good links to very basic wiring resources?
P.S. Your personal info doesn't say what part of the country you are in. I am guessing it is not close to me, since we don't have attics like that here in Colorado. If you were close I would come by, take a look, and make some much more informed recomendations.
to the Forums.
If you can get the old track up without damaging the cork roadbed, (if that is what you used under the track origionally) and go with that, with new Nickle Silver Flex track on top. Just replace any cork roadbed that is damaged and sand the whole roadbed so that it is level and smooth before you lay track on it. If you did not use cork roadbed, I would put that down first and sand it smooth. I would go with DCC if I were starting out now as it is much easier to wire, (you do not need all the block switches to isolate sections of track to stop a train and leave it). With DCC, the track is powered all the time and you just start up the engine that you want to use. Do NOT throw away your old Power Pack as you can still use it on DCC to power your switch machine motors and any building or street lights that you may install. Just DO NOT have it connected to the track.
There are several ways to secure the track to the roadbed. Just use the Search Feature on these Forums for track laying and find the one that suits you. (Latex Caulk, like you seal around windows with is quite popular.) Just spread it very thin with a Palette knife and secure your roadbed and track and weight it down for several hours.
The main thing to remember is to take your time and enjoy yourself. Make sure that your track turns are smooth and not too tight a radius and that you have NO KINKS, in particular where you are joining sections of track or switches together. One other thing is to secure your switches with only a few dabs of whatever glue you are using, AND NONE NEAR ANY MOVING PARTS OF THE SWITCH. Don't ask how many switches I ruined because I was not careful and got glue in areas that are supposed to be movable but didn't when I got through with them.
Good luck, and enjoy.
Blue Flamer.
Ahem. Unlike the other posters in this thread, I personally have built and completed this exact layout. I will try to get you pictures of it completed later tonight. I used sectional track only because that is the way it was designed. It worked just fine.
The only design flaw of this layout is the transition in track height within a 4x8 because you are going under and over. It's really rather small for that, and the cars tend to roller coaster around the layout if they become un coupled.
I got bored with it rather quickly and soon dismantled it and buried it in my brother and laws back yard. I quickly started on a 16X13 around the room layout which was much more to my liking. But the kids will have a great time with it. You however like me will get bored with it quickly I'm sure
This is a bit of a tough call. I see valuable information and advice from all the posters here, but I would be inclined to say start over....including with a whole nuther approach.
Let's start with the available space, not the least of which is....does it still have to be in the attic? Is the attic a substantially different place from 15 years ago? If not, why should we expect that its limitations then won't be as intrusive into your enjoyment now as it was for you and your dad? Where is the progress or forward motion in this for you? What lessons would you like your own child to take from your analysis of what didn't go so well last time when you explain any replications or alterations to what came previously? Hopefully it would include something about the attic.
I agree with Frank, about the boring aspect of this particular layout plan, and at the same time with the caution about tackling something overly complex or large from Tom.
Some of us never get to laying flextrack because it seems daunting, or our first attempts defy us. I made myself get on with it, and although I can't claim to be an "expert", I can lay basically trouble-free track at last. You make some boo-boos, learn by observation and trials, waste a length or three, and then become rather quick and proficient by the time your 10th section is getting soldered into place. The variety it allows is what makes it marvelous and so useful for developing a unique track plan.
But, to get back to your space, I would try to re-configure your bench or layout surface so that you get more useful room that allows more prototypical operations. We don't want you running 6 hour ops sessions with your young boy....that would probably be silly, but it might be nice for the two of you to be able to run a decent 20-30 minute session with some switching in a rudimentary yard, running out onto the main, and maybe a crossover or siding, even a spur here and there to drop off empties and pick up hoppers with something...coal, wood chips....limestone....make it a working railroad.
And if you are running steamers in a transition era or earlier, please don't let the concept of a turntable and small roundhouse deter you. The new Walthers Built-up Indexed turntables are fantastic and worth every penny. Fun, too.
Good luck.
Just my opinion, but flextrack won't necessarily fix your derailment problems. First, find out what's causing the derailments. If it's alighment problems, I would use a piece of flextrack here and there rather than starting all over.
On the other hand, if you just don't like the track plan, by all means start over.
- Harry
My opinion of this layout is that Atlas was trying to sell as much track as they thought anyone could possibly cram into a limited space, and it should have only half as much track as it does. Grades would be too steep for a 4 x 8 sheet of plywood in HO scale, and the boxcar you're trying to run on this layout is too long for the time the layout was designed. Forty foot boxcars would be the longest that you should be trying to use on these tight radius curves. I think you should chuck this one into the dumpster and start afresh with a more practical, single level track plan that avoids the inclines and sharp radiuses that this plan requires.
quote: My opinion of this layout is that Atlas was trying to sell as much track as they thought anyone could possibly cram into a limited space, and it should have only half as much track as it does. Grades would be too steep for a 4 x 8 sheet of plywood in HO scale, and the boxcar you're trying to run on this layout is too long for the time the layout was designed. Forty foot boxcars would be the longest that you should be trying to use on these tight radius curves. I think you should chuck this one into the dumpster and start afresh with a more practical, single level track plan that avoids the inclines and sharp radiuses that this plan requires. unquote
I'm glad this is a personal hobby, and different opinions are allowed.
For an HO 4x8 - and I'm not saying a 4x8 is perfect, far from it - it's one of the better track plans that I have studied. Since I'm limited to 4x7 for the main portion of my layout, it won't work for me. But the plan has figure 8 operation instead of a race track, 2 short passing tracks, and does feature a branch line for switching. That said, small locomotives, unrealistically short trains, and short cars are forced upon the builder of this layout by the sharp curves and steep grades. And the curves and grades make this a more difficult plan to build good trackwork for then less complex plans.
Issues to consider for your decisions:
- what condition is the benchwork in? Is there any evidence of sagging anywhere, or of any fastenings letting go? Sagging because of inadequate construction - quite common in 1st layouts - or other benchwork problems should be cause to reject the re-building effort. Benchwork that is not perfectly rigid under the loads experienced (people leaning on it, etc) is going to cause track issues and resulting derailments no matter what. Similarly, the humidity swings likely to happen in your attic could by themselves cause the benchwork to shift and cause the track/derailment problems. The real solution is to put the layout in a climate that you can tolerate for several hours at a stretch. The better the climate control (humidity is more important than temperature), the less the expansion/contraction of the benchwork. Painting lumber (on all accessible sides) slows the response of the wood to humidity changes, and should be considered if climate control is not an option.
- as already stated, brass track requires more maintenance effort than nickel silver, particularly in high humidity environments. Running trains frequently, especially heavy cars with metal wheels, helps reduce the track cleaning chores - something I learned through experience. As mentioned, 1st priority should be to replace the rail joiners with new nickel silver ones. Substituting flex track for several short "fitter" pieces of sectional track - especially if there are any kinks - or spurs in the yard would give you the most gain. Replacing several full sections of 15"-18" curved sectional track with flex is difficult to do any better than the original sectional track curves. Since the layout uses Custom Line turnouts, replacement of the turnouts with new nickel silver may be worthwhile if you continue to have problems. However, for the layout geometry to work in the tight space, you will have to stick with Atlas Custom Line. Substitution of other brands will end up with a re-design of the track.
- the steep grades require good transitions between level and grade. Cookie cutter roadbed with one continuous piece of 1/2" plywood will automatically give good transitions. However, cutting the plywood into sections sets you up for abrupt changes in grade - which again causes derailments. If you need to splice pieces of plywood subroadbed together, use splice plates at least 8" long - preferably a foot - of the same minimum 1/2" thick plywood under the plywood joints. Sand the final result to make sure the joint edges are even. You must also check that the plywood subroadbed is level perpendicular to the track. You may have to fasten the plywood subroadbed some more to induce the "twist" to take out the "banking" of the curves by the natural lay of the plywood. Don't ask me how I know this.
- chances are the cork roadbed has dried out and will crumble to the touch. Be prepared to take it up and replace it if this has happened. If it hasn't dried out, be thankful.
If you are reasonably happy with the track plan and the limitations it imposes on rolling stock and scenery, it would be a relatively inexpensive way to get back in the hobby. And learn all the skills and gotchas you didn't quite get right the 1st time around. OTOH, if you are never going to be satisfied with the layout even when finished then I would recommend something different like the Heart of Georgia Better Beginners Layout (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HOGRR/?v=1&t=search&ch=web&pub=groups&sec=group&slk=1).
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
Pictures as promised. Ok this was 1992. My modeling skills have come along way since then
I will say that this was a nice layout to practice my scenery skills on, so in that respect it was quite fun.
The beginning...
Near completion
Done...
And now the fun part, when you're ready to chuck it all have the kids play ON the layout. BABY GIANT!
Thanks everyone for the truly great responses and opinions.
The people who were writing about the bad climate, etc in that attic - you're totally right. I need to find a better place to move this project to. I'm hoping that I can work on the project here, and then in the near future, when I buy a house, I will have enough room to move it to my place. For now I may have to contend with the cold winters and hot summers.
About flex vs sectional - I'm thinking that maybe for financial reasons alone, it's worth giving the sectional another shot before buying all new track.
About DCC vs DC - I still don't know what to do. I have to do some more reading and research because my understanding of DCC is still very limmited. But I'm a computer engineer, so I imagine I should be able to figure it out!
About the layout itself, and its 4x8ishness - 4x8 used to seem huge to me. But after reading a lot on here I definatley see the limitations. I guess one of the reasons I'm inclined to stick with this layout for now, is that I think the cookie cutter and elevational aspect is so interesting. I'm proud of how we made that and I would just feel terrible about scrapping it. I'm hoping that one day in the future, if I have more space, I could maybe build an extension to this layout and connect the whole thing together. Is this realistic?
Driline - thanks so much for posting your pics. It's great to see someone's ressults who did the same thing as us. Any other tips you could share about the layout would be much appreciated. Do you have any pics of the wiring or controls?
After I post this initial reply, I'm going to go back and read everyone's responses one or two more times. A lot to digest here.
Thanks again everyone. I'll be coming back again.
My 2 cents.
This trackplan (Plywood Summit Lines) is ideal for small steam and / or diesel switchers. I lean towards the steam side, if a 4 x 8 is what you are going to build, this is an ideal plan for Bachmann Shays or Rivarossi Heislers, with small cars (MDC chip cars, shorty flat cars, logging cars etc) 2 mines up on the hill (wye), one of the yard tracks the interchange, the other for passengers/ mill workers, and the lower siding having a sawmill to supply wood to the mine/town. I have too built this plan, but unlike Driline, my couplers operate correctly, my track was laid properly,and have spent several hours in an evening "operating" this railroad without the issues he experienced. Contrary to some of the layout plans (loops with a duckunder) I see posted as a better alternative, I personally don't see more activities in those layouts than I do this one. (such as that Heart of Georgia layout) The sides are very narrow, and don't seem to me to photograph well, MHO. My geared steam is also chugging along at 5 mph, vs 45 mph on those big diesels.
As far as DC or DCC goes, I personally chose DCC and would never go back. Some of the engines I have mentioned earlier can be purchased already setup with DCC and sound. The track wiring couldn't be any easier (no block wiring) just hook up 2 wires in several different places all around the layout.
Sorry Driline but the only problem you mentioned had to do with couplers, you stated you got bored very easily with the plan, but didn't go into detail. That can be understandable in certain situations, I see you like bigger diesels, which I don't see working at all on this plan.
H, I sent you a PM with a link included. Maybe its a better example of your railroad than the others shown here, I believe repairing / replacing the trackwork is a good idea. Get your feet wet, and if down the road, you find room for that empire, you'll know what to do.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
Having followed this thread, I respectfully submit the following.
Personally, assuming the benchwork is in good condition, I would suggest leaving any track that functions properly as it is. Carefully take up only the sections that are problematic, and re-lay those sections as perfectly as you can. Don't be afraid to take up an entire curve if need be to get everything properly lined up again. Your goal is perfectly smooth, flowing trackwork, no kinks or bumps anywhere. Replace damaged track as necessary. Bumps in the roadbed (cork, if used) or subroadbed (plywood) should be sanded smooth. Next, get an NMRA guage and check the wheels, track, turnouts, everthing with it. Make adjustments as necessary. Also, check cars for proper weight (do a forum search, I'm trying to keep this from getting overly long winded), add if necessary. Cars with truck mounted couplers tend to be a bit light, and derail if backed up, you can switch these to body mounted couplers if you want. I assume you still have your powerpack shown in one of the pictures, for now I suggest simply using it, most factory DCC equipped locomotives will run just fine on it. Speaking of locomotives, shorter is better, within reason. As tempting as Big Boys and DD40's are, they simply are just out of place on such a small layout. My Bachmann Spectrum 2-10-2 doesn't care for one of my 22" radius curves. I also agree the 50' cars are simply a bit much for a small layout, I would recommend 40' or shorter cars.
Anyway, this should give you something to think about.
Brad
EMD - Every Model Different
ALCO - Always Leaking Coolant and Oil
CSX - Coal Spilling eXperts
fwrightFor an HO 4x8 - and I'm not saying a 4x8 is perfect, far from it - it's one of the better track plans that I have studied. The plan has figure 8 operation instead of a race track, 2 short passing tracks, and does feature a branch line for switching.
I think I would make fewer loco storage tracks off the turn table and try to make the yard with one more track.
To me a few 34' hoppers or 21' ore cars are essential to serve the mine. One train runs these cars up and down from the mine (something like an 0-6-0 switcher or an Alco S2, or even geared locomotives). Don't forget a bobber caboose or 30' shorty caboose. Maybe add an Overland type shorty combine passenger car or a coach even for the workers commuting to the mine each morning & night. In fact run the "commuter" train separate instead of doing a mixed train....
Other trains running on the main pick up the hopper/ore cars and haul them away to all places off-layout.
One can really have a jam packed operating session on this little mine servicing layout.
Geared Steam My 2 cents. This trackplan (Plywood Summit Lines) is ideal for small steam and / or diesel switchers. I lean towards the steam side, if a 4 x 8 is what you are going to build, this is an ideal plan for Bachmann Shays or Rivarossi Heislers, with small cars (MDC chip cars, shorty flat cars, logging cars etc) 2 mines up on the hill (wye), one of the yard tracks the interchange, the other for passengers/ mill workers, and the lower siding having a sawmill to supply wood to the mine/town. I have too built this plan, but unlike Driline, my couplers operate correctly, my track was laid properly,and have spent several hours in an evening "operating" this railroad without the issues he experienced. Contrary to some of the layout plans (loops with a duckunder) I see posted as a better alternative, I personally don't see more activities in those layouts than I do this one. (such as that Heart of Georgia layout) The sides are very narrow, and don't seem to me to photograph well, MHO. My geared steam is also chugging along at 5 mph, vs 45 mph on those big diesels. As far as DC or DCC goes, I personally chose DCC and would never go back. Some of the engines I have mentioned earlier can be purchased already setup with DCC and sound. The track wiring couldn't be any easier (no block wiring) just hook up 2 wires in several different places all around the layout. Sorry Driline but the only problem you mentioned had to do with couplers, you stated you got bored very easily with the plan, but didn't go into detail. That can be understandable in certain situations, I see you like bigger diesels, which I don't see working at all on this plan. H, I sent you a PM with a link included. Maybe its a better example of your railroad than the others shown here, I believe repairing / replacing the trackwork is a good idea. Get your feet wet, and if down the road, you find room for that empire, you'll know what to do.
Well Deano, what I was eluding to about the couplers was the grade. I didn't really have a problem with the rolling stock uncoupling. I meant to show that the mainline is a continuous roller coaster. No really flat area per se.
Don't get me wrong. I had plenty of fun with it, its just I wanted more after about 6 months of operating. The kids had fun too.
As far as DCC is concerned. Go for it. Buy a starter system, NCE powercab or Digitrax for about $150 dollars or so. You'd spend that on switches, wiring and a DC transformer anyway. I don't have any pictures that show the wiring. It was just simple atlas slide switches. You will need a reverser for the Y though if you go DCC.
I would finish it though. The experience building a small 4X8 is well worth the effort. And no, don't save it to add it to a larger layout. Start over and plan your own little empire.
DC Power.
You turn the throttle and apply power to the track. The analog motor on a locomotive feels this power and starts to turn the motor and off we go!
Any and ALL engines (As in at least one or more) on that track connected to your throttle will roll at the same time. This is why need gaps, toggles and such to control the entire layout so that perhaps the mainline engine will roll the train while the turntable engine stays dead.
Now DCC power.
The track is LIVE all the time once powered up. There is a locomotive equipped with a decoder. That locomotive has a name that it will answer to... maybe address number 03.
3 in Binary is 00000011 (Out of 255 I think I have it)
Now suppose you have just one throttle in DCC and a bunch of locos sitting on that track. Each of the locos have a different address... perhaps the cab numbers last two digits.
The track is still powered. But the decoder in each of the engines DONT respond except the engine address number 3 when you open the throttle to drive that engine.
The decoder hears it's address, the command to spin motor and provides that power to the motor and off you go. There is a hell of alot more going on in binary form off that track to the locomotive.
You can go into the turntable with a DCC engine, take a spin while someone else takes the local out onto the mainline with another DCC engine going in a totally different direction and speed.
The voltage is necessary to be constant to the track to keep the DCC decoders "Booted up" all the time. If you shut the track down the DCC engine shuts off and needs to be rebooted just like a computer.
At the end of the day, DCC is pretty expensive. The DCC system, engine is already almost a thousand dollars. Analog engine is about 40 dollars with a 50 dollar tech 4 throttle and some toggles.
The reason you cannot have DC and DCC together at the same time on the same track is because when the DCC system turns on, the analog engine marches off leaving it's fellow DCC engine sitting there.
The middle road is to have a Analog system with engines DCC READY. That means they are equipped at the factory with a plug inside the engine. At such time in the future you are ready to install DCC onto your layout, just buy a decoder for your locomotive and some kind of DCC command system that YOU like and that YOU understand.
Digitrax and other DCC's are like Ford and Chevy. Both camps have strong advocates and there are a increasing number of other systems for DCC. And of course the DaBomba is going to be the MRC folks. They make very good power packs but poor Decoders. Perhaps they are improving. I like to think so... but Ive already engaged Digitrax as my own system because I understand Binary a little bit.
Last Chance, I think you have one aspect of DC/DCC mixing incorrect. If you apply DCC current when a DC engine is present, it does not march off. It will sing and make ungodly noises due to the pulsing of the voltage in the DCC current/signal interface. but it won't move until you introduce a speed step into your throttle settings. This has been my experience. The whole point of having an address 00 decidated to DC engines on some DCC systems is that you have to be able to control those engines.
-Crandell
Last Chance At the end of the day, DCC is pretty expensive. The DCC system, engine is already almost a thousand dollars. Analog engine is about 40 dollars with a 50 dollar tech 4 throttle and some toggles.
Last Chance, DCC is NOT that expensive!! NCE, smaller Digitrax, and MRC systems are in the $200-$300 range, and locos, with sound, are $200 or less for an Atlas diesel. Sooner or later, most of us that had DC are converting to DCC, which makes it more expensive than starting with DCC.
Last Chance At the end of the day, DCC is pretty expensive. The DCC system, engine is already almost a thousand dollars. Analog engine is about 40 dollars with a 50 dollar tech 4 throttle and some toggles. Digitrax and other DCC's are like Ford and Chevy. Try TOYOTA or HONDA Both camps have strong advocates and there are a increasing number of other systems for DCC. And of course the DaBomba is going to be the MRC folks. They make very good power packs but poor Decoders. Perhaps they are improving. I like to think so... but Ive already engaged Digitrax as my own system because I understand Binary a little bit.
Digitrax and other DCC's are like Ford and Chevy. Try TOYOTA or HONDA Both camps have strong advocates and there are a increasing number of other systems for DCC. And of course the DaBomba is going to be the MRC folks. They make very good power packs but poor Decoders. Perhaps they are improving. I like to think so... but Ive already engaged Digitrax as my own system because I understand Binary a little bit.
I disagree. DCC is not that expensive . $150 for a system and 12 bucks a decoder. Where do you get $1,000 from?
Analog engine for $40 bucks? Maybe some crappy bachmann, but for a nice analog engine you're going to pay upwards of $80 or so. Even athearn knows the value of a smooth running engine offering their Genesis line.
With the answers above, you're not really answering the original poster's question about power supply. Since he already has a DC power pack and DC locomotive(s), that part will cost him nothing. Since he had it running and discovered the derailment problems, he must have the switches and wiring. Any DCC equipment will be a completely new investment. Better for him to test the operation on DC and later convert to DCC as finances and time permit. The time and money he'll need to invest as I suggested in my post on page 1 would need to be done regardless of the DC or DCC choice.
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned giving the wood framework a coat or two of paint on all exposed surfaces to seal it. This could improve greatly the stability of the track by preventing the wood from expanding and contracting in the attic.
Drew
Frank
I thought for sure you were going to give me the coke bottle glasses treatment.
Deano
Last Chance Digitrax and other DCC's are like Ford and Chevy. Both camps have strong advocates and there are a increasing number of other systems for DCC. And of course the DaBomba is going to be the MRC folks. They make very good power packs but poor Decoders. Perhaps they are improving. I like to think so... but Ive already engaged Digitrax as my own system because I understand Binary a little bit.
Last Chance - I missed the part about the MRC decoders last time. I wont get into the MRC decoder argument, but the MRC Prodigy Advance system is a very good one. I've operated on Digitrax, and for me it was a little harder to get used to than the Prodigy Advance that I have. Please don't confuse their decoders with their system.
I will take my medicine and be happy.
Thanks to everyone who corrected me. There are times I get rusty in my thinking if it does not get flushed with facts from time to time.
Oh by the way a Digitrax Chief System goes for about 350 dollars, power supply another 50 at least (I used a 2012 supply at 150) and then you have the engine at about 450 retail. No one pays retail so call it...350. Pretty durn close to a thousand. Now a caboose and 10 cars.... they can be as much as you have cash for it.
Compared to that... wood, track, cork etc is CHEAP.
Cheers.
And as I tried to communicate before the DC / DCC issue is actually irrelevant to the question of what to do about completing/razing the unfinished layout. One can choose DC or DCC whether or not all the track is ripped up or left or the whole thing is razed. All the other issue are more important at this point.
I'm reviving this thread I started about a year ago to update everyone on my new situation, and new dilemma. I don't really have any hard questions to ask, but maybe some members can share any personal experiences with me that will help me decide what to do here.Since I wrote my original post, my wife and I have bought a house - and thankfully, I have an approximately 5x10 area in our nice climate controlled basement which my wife has begrudgingly agreed to let me put some trains. My father has offered (or rather encouraged) me to take the half completed HO layout and equipment I wrote about originally out of his attic. My son is turning 4 in a month and absolutely loves trains. My parents bought him a Lionel remote controlled plastic G gauge set which runs on the floor in an oval, makes some great noises and he plays with it for hours. He wants to expand it though but also wants just about every train he sees on Youtube and in my catalogs, magazine, etc. Over the weekend I went to my local hobby shop with one of the plastic G tracks to see if they had any extra ones I could use to expand this set. I thought this could be a good temporary solution while I work on getting the HO set over to my house. However, once in the store, they sold me on these MTH Railking O-Gauge sets. They seem to be the perfect solution for me and a great way to get started with a solid quality, digital set. For about $350 I could get a DTS/DTCC equipped die-case metal steam engine, with a full range of sounds, smoke, etc, a transformer, digital controller, 4 or 5 cars, and enough track for a nice sized oval. He gave me a demo of the engine and I was really blown away by how easy it was to set up, and the sounds etc. The thing I like about this, is that I can buy this for my son's birthday, and then expand it, and maybe make this our "main" setup rather than continue the HO set.I know the topic of HO vs O is sort of sensitive but I'm really stuck on what to do here. The thing that makes me hesitant is that my son is still kind of stubborn about how he likes to run the trains. He doesn't like putting any fancy scenery around, likes to carry the trains around the house in his hands (def not a good idea with these), and the jury is out how he will feel about the sound and smoke. If I buy this though, I want it to also be MY layout to design and decorate, etc. I want to buy him something, but also retain the ability to work on my own project.The other decision I have, is to figure out if I want to switch to O scale. It was very appealing to me how easy it was to set up the track, the infrequency of derailments, and the ease to get the digital sounds, etc "out of the box" at a reasonable startup cost. I always thought O-gauge was more toylike and awkard, but after reading around and doing some research, I've seen some amazingly realistic O layouts. I was also surprised at how much action could be packed into a relatively small space - even with O. I think I could do something pretty cool with a 5x10 layout.At this point I'm leaning towards just splurging on this set "for my son" ;-), and putting it on a 5x10 or 4x8 tabletop I'll build for him and just keep the layout simple at first. I can see then how he likes it, maybe expand a little bit to a figure 8 or something. Then I can just play it by ear. As I said above, I don't really have any questions here, but wanted to share my story and see if anyone else has gone through a similar process. It seems insignificant, but these are investments and I don't want to spend a lot of money time to go down a "track" that I'm not happy with.Thanks!
Drilline. Your wife in the 4th pic earlier has the "what the hell did this thing actually cost?" look in her eyes.
Springfield PA