~G4
19 Years old, modeling the Cowlitz, Chehalis, and Cascade Railroad of Western Washington in 1927 in 6X6 feet.
Shorter locos & cars also look a lot better on the 18" to 22" radius curves that a 4x8 limits you to. I have a 4x8 presently, and my Challenger, Veranda Turbine, & 85' passenger cars look a little silly on the curves!!
The only problem with your time period is the limited rolling stock available. Roundhouse/MDC/Athearn is the major maker of freight.passenger cars and locos. Bachmann has also made a few locos. IHC still has a few "old time" structure kits, as well as DPM. There are plenty of craftsman and laser cut kits for the "old west", as well as figures and livestock .Horses & cows are more at home in this time period also!!
You've already touched on the major advantages - small equipment (40 foot cars were considered oversize) tight curves, simpler structures and simpler infrastructure (no paved roads, for openers.) The major disadvantage is that this is the realm of scratchbuilders, kitbashers and craftsman-kit builders.
I cheated! I got the same advantages (except for having one paved road) by choosing my prototype and location with care. In the process, I managed to buy most of my run-of-the-yard freight cars RTR, and most of my locomotives were easy to assemble kits. You do have to be willing to think outside of the North American box.
A working knowledge of the railroad's native language is also helpful...
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
1. Its different. You won't be just another rubber stamp "transition era" model railroad.
2. The equipment is smaller, so you have the same size trains (# of cars) in a smaller space. You can use tighter radii without impacting your equipment.
3. The variety of railroads is greater. There were hundreds of railroads in the TOC (turn of the century) period, dozens in the transition period and a few in the modern period. Its easier to justify a freelance roadname.
4. Railroads had a wider range of activities. Passenger service was commonplace. There were engine facilities every 100 miles or less. With smaller railroads you can justify full facilities on even a small line.
5. Railroads were the transportation source, so there are lots of opportunities for serving industries. A lot of those were smaller industries, more modelable.
Down sides:
1. The major non-craftsman model manufacturers, with the exception of Roundhouse, don't support the era whatsoever. The main stream manufacturers believe that railroads were invented in the 1930's. Even the Roundhouse cars are post 1910 if you want to be picky. So your sources for rolling stock are mostly scratchbuilding and resin or wood kits.
2. You do have to do more research. The TOC modeling community is running about 30 years behind the rest of the modeling community in many respects. We are about wre the general modeling community was in the 1960's or 70's with regard to models and about the same as the 1970's or 1980's with regard to information. There is a lot out there, you just have to find it.
3. Accessories are harder to come by. Wagons, people, signs and building details are all oriented towards the 1940's and newer.
4. Reading model magazines and going to train shows is somewhat depressing. There are virtually no ads for any products you can use and 99% of the stuff at a train show won't be in your era (as a counterpoint, its really exciting when you do find something).
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
...and remember the Roundhouse/MDC cars are only available "ready to run" now, you can't buy them and paint/letter them yourself. They even glue the roof on the passenger cars and cabooses so you have to crack them open to put interiors in. It's too bad as I used to like decorating them using Clover House decals, which have a lot of dry transfers from the era you're looking at.
http://www.cloverhouse.com/
Art Griffin Decals has even more decals for the TOC modeler, All based on photos of actual cars. On the EarlyRail Yahoo group I have loaded most of them into a database so you can search by several different parameters.
sparkyjay31I'm jealous. I went all the way to 1920 to start off. But the late 1800's is still my favorite.
The nice thing about the 20's is you instantly pick up dozens of ready made models for cars and engines (all the USRA prototypes). You do lose most of the 30 and 34 ft cars (other than hoppers or ore cars.). You can also use all but the most modern steam engines without modification. Downside, post 1910 cars have double the number of grabirons on them so if you are putting on your own you have twice as many holes to drill.
Dave H.
The equipment available for turn of the 19th to 20thcentury is not as limited as you might think. Even N scale is reasonably well supplied. The Athearn Roundhouse 2-6-0s and 2-8-0s provide good motive power (Model Power 4-4-0s and 2-6-0s can also be back dated); and Roundhouse provides ready to run "old-time" freight stock and passenger cars. For only a little more effort, you can build more accurate rolling stock using Fine-N-Scale resin kits (check online sites for full listings). HO scale has, of course, by far the most available. Bachmann and Roundhouse both currently sellappropriate locomotives, and you can still buy others once made by IHC, Mantua, etc.second-hand-as well as many old brass engines issued by GEM, MEW, Pacific Fast Mail, etc that sell for around $200. True, only Roundhouse sells ready-made freight and passengers cars, but there are many kits available to add variety. For a fuller list, check out the Yahoo Early Rail files (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EarlyRail/). That site, incidentally, offers all sorts of additional information on modeling the pre WWI era.
Voyageur
For structures
http://www.wildwestmodels.com/
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
1880-1910 is a great era, it kind of bridges the gap between what we might consider 'old-fashioned' steam power and ends with the beginnings of 'modern' steam power. It starts out with 4-4-0 and 4-6-0 power, then ends with the very early 2-8-2 and 4-6-2 locos and actually the beginnings of articulated steam.
Frankly, I wish that there was more in both motive power and rolling stock that represented the changes that went on between the latter part of the 19th and early 20th century. If you can find them, there are some fine Roundhouse earlier kit models of both 2-8-0 and 4-6-0 locomotives that represent both ends of that period--their 'old timer' kits and their later "Harriman" style locos. They're basic kits, but they can be easily super-detailed to look what you want them to look like for the period. And even though the Roundhouse rolling stock represents more of the later period, their refrigerator cars, for example, are still representative of some of the earlier cars that ran on railroads between the late 1880's and the early 1900's.
You kinda/sorta have to hunt for it, but there's a pretty good--if limited--array of rolling stock that covers that period fairly well.
Check out model railroad shows and swap meets. You might be surprised at what turns up.
Good luck.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
sparkyjay31Agreed. I have mostly 36' reefers ( Atlas RTR ) and 38' & 40' double walled boxcars ( whatever I can find ). They have all be repainted, lettered, and weathered. All also wear B&M markings. My 4-4-0 and 2-8-0 are perfect for the layout, era, and my favorite motive power. I love this hobby!
The Atlas 36 ft reefers are 1930's era cars with steel underframes and post 1910 safety appliances. The 40 ft double sheathed boxcars are probably 1918 era USRA cars. The Bachmann Spectrum 4-4-0 is a 20's-30's era engine with electric headlights. The only even close 2-8-0 is the Roundhouse old time 2-8-0 or a Model Power 2-8-0 (if you ignore the tender). The Bachmann 2-8-0 is a 1920's era engine.. If you are doing 1920 or later all the models you mentioned are appropriate. If you are modleing before 1910, none of the models you mentioned are appropriate.
Its like saying a 40 ft boxcar withour a roofwalk is a steam era car. Not.
Narrow gauge has the same advantages while allowing modeling through mid-twentieth century.
Mark
And look how small a narrow gauge "industry" can be modeled such as shown in the bottom left photo.
markpierceNarrow gauge has the same advantages while allowing modeling through mid-twentieth century. Mark
On30 is perfect for 1880=1910 period it is large, cheap and easily fits on a 4x8:
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Harold
For this time period you need to model lots of passenger traffic. Passenger cars were 50 ft and longer. So you will still need larger curves. Now 1830's, there's a period of small cars. And Bachmann makes passenger sets.
But I do agree that the period is an interesting one. Once I get my layout up and running I want to build a set of equipment for the 1900-1910 period - the first decade of the Maryland and Pennsylvania. The operative word being build since S scale has even less than HO.
Enjoy
Paul
A friend of mine models this era. He scratch built the mow car below. Just why he prefers this time frame, I don't know, but he has mentioned getting to run shorter rolling stock and building most structures etc. himself.
Jarrell
Well sorta. He's actually modeling the 1920's or 30's.
People think that if you are modeling something we in 2008 percieve as old, then it should look old. The Model T was introduced in 1908. So to fit in the era, it would be less than 2 years old. Rather than a rusted out ahnd me down, it should be so shiny that you could see yourself in the paint. Same with the flatcar (that actual car was built around the WW1 as an idler for shipments of naval gun barrels). If it was a steel flat built in that era, the car would be a virtually brand new, premium, steel car, the pride of the fleet and should be almost shiny itself.
Modeling
I would hasten to point out that it is by no means necessary to model 1880-1910 (really a talented scratchbuilder's realm) to model a layout with small engines, rolling stock of limited size and short trains. In the 20th century, between the wars, numberous shortlines, small branchlines, even county railroads, existed that would meet the stated criteria. Likewise, layouts set in this period would not require the custom building of so many details, as they would already be available commercially.
To a degree, it is even be possible to do so using modern equipment and details if one were to model some large, specific industry which has its own company railroad. Regardless of the dimensions of modern rolling stock, the industrial trackage could have realistically sharp radii within the plant boundries, use very small locomotives running at slow speeds (making the operation of the layout seem larger and take longer), with the plus that the selection of cars, structures, vehicles and details would be virtually limitless.
CNJ831
I prefer to model the late 19th Century for a variety of reasons. As you stated, it works better for small layouts. To date, my biggest space has been 8x10ft usable. I enjoy research into the way things were done, and why, in the late 19th.
As several other posters have hinted at - there were real and substantial changes in railroading and nearly all facets of life between 1880 and 1910. And if you are modeling 1910, remember that most of your equipment has a few years on it. So the preponderance of your equipment would be 5-10 years old, with less than 25% less than 3 years old, and less than 25 % more than 15 years old. I didn't understand the ramifications of this, and the changes in the railroading scene during the time period.
My original intent was to start my layout in 1875, and advance year-for-year until about 1925. I didn't realize that during that 50 year span, finances permitting, most railroads would have gone through at least 3 nearly complete changeouts of their physical plant - track, cars, and locomotives. And those that couldn't afford the changeouts ended up in a financial death spiral as decreasing efficiency and increasing maintenance costs made their financial situation even worse.
Freight train lengths are kind of a sore subject with me, thanks to my lack of space. Again, the common assumption in model railroading that lumps anything older than USRA in one "old time" class do the eras a real disservice. Even on a narrow gauge line like the North Pacific Coast, a 12-18 car train pulled by a 4-4-0 was pretty common. Now a 4-4-0 was very limited at what could be pulled up any substantial grades. IIRC, the tables on some of the Colorado narrow gauge indicated 7-8 loaded cars with a C-16 (2-8-0) up some of their grades.
Away from the grades, train lengths could be much more substantial - 50 car trains were not unknown - if equipped with brakes. It was the development and installation of air brakes that made possible trains as long as an engine(s) could pull. The brakes were developed in the 1870s, mandated in 1893, and finally installed for interchange service everywhere by 1903. The need for interchange service drove couplers, brakes, and the first safety appliance rules. And this change came squarely in the middle of your proposed period.
I chose 1900 for a variety of reasons:
- knuckle couplers were universal since my free-lance prototypes were early adopters. As were K air brakes.
- no steel underframes had made it to coastal Oregon.
- Shay and Climax locomotives were developed and selling pretty well beginning in the 1890s. I could justify models of early versions on my layout.
- I wanted a dog hole harbor still served by sail. 1900 is about the latest this would have happened. Steam ships were rapidly taking over the trade.
- Lumbering in coastal Oregon was just getting started in 1900.
- the financial panics of the early 1890s were over, and the country was really starting to build out.
Some of the consequences of my choices:
- much of the comercial RTR rolling stock labelled Old Time is really from about 1905-1910. This includes the Bachmann Spectrum 4-6-0 and 4-4-0, and to some degree, all the Roundhouse line. With careful checking for size similarity to older prototypes, some of these can be successfully backdated. In 1900, an Oregon short line would have at most 1-2 relatively new locomotives; the rest would be early 1890s vintage or earlier.
- lots of research needed to be historically accurate, and not cartoonish or caricatures.
- the narrow gauge situation is even worse than standard gauge. Nearly all the commercial locomotives and rolling stock are models as the prototype appeared in the 1920s and 1930s, even though the heyday of narrow gauge was in the 19th Century. That's because there's plenty of documentation from the later eras, but a lot less from before 1900.
- I get to be a model builder, not a big time model railroad operator. Although there was plenty of serious railroading operations done by the prototype, getting a 19th Century prototype layout large enough and complete enough to enjoy timetable and dispatching operations is a serious time challenge.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
My current plan is to model the Pere Marquette in 1946. On the PM, that means only a handful of diesel locomotives (NW2 and SW1 switchers and E7 passenger diesels) and the beautiful super-powered 2-8-4 Berkshires as well as a roster of 4-6-2 Pacifics, 2-8-2 Mikados, 2-8-0 Consolidations, 0-8-0 switchers, and 2-10-2 Santa Fes.
However, I am tempted at times to back date to the early 1920s. First, the roster included all of the above list excluding the diesels and the Berkshires. Second, the PM still had many 4-4-2 Atlantics, 2-6-0 Moguls, 0-6-0 switchers, and 4-6-0 Ten Wheelers that were not scrapped until the 1930s and a handful of 4-4-0 Americans that were being scrapped in the 1920s. Third, the line I am modeling was somewhat paralleled by an interurban line that I could include as well. Fourth, with the ICC valuations of the railroads done around 1918, there is an excellent source of accurate detailed prototype information available. Back dating is very tempting. That said, I just don't think I can give up the Berkshires.
River City Railroad still has HO 36' old time cars in kit form. It would be easy to strip the box car minus roof. I have bought some from them. They come with the truck but you need wheel sets. They also come with McHenry couplers.
There are HO Scale resin models, stick models still being produced.Someone is selling Civil War, 1864 or so, rolling stock. What is interesting is the cars have Janey couplers, not link and pin. I have some link & pin cars and the couplers are difficult to use. Pins get lost so easy.
Many are still available on ebay.
Here is a kit I recently built.
The Yahoo Early rail group and Yahoo ER kits group has loads of photos and suggestions.Google book has loads of railroad books of the 1900 era that you can download.
Even the new Roundhouse engines are post 1900 from what I can see. Locomotives up to 1900 had the air pump on the engineers side. I have many pictures of locos in the late 1800s and most have the air pump on the engineer's side. No doubt some one will find a photo prior to 1900 with the air pump on the fireman's side. Roundhouse and Spectrum have the air pump on the fireman's side. Electric lights (carbon arc) started to be installed around 1897 so most locos at the time had no turbo generator. Some locos around 1900 where being equipped with acetylene lights which required no generator and were safer to oncoming loco crews, not as bright as carbon arc.
Model Power has the Mantua line and is selling old time rolling stock.
Please note that with most everything being produced in China, a product release does not last vey long now compared to years when the products were produced in the USA.
But it is your railroad so you can believe what you want.
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
Someone posted this link in a thread not long ago, but it has some nice older cars.
http://www.geocities.com/bkempins/ASMMain/CattleCar.html
I would like to point out that Walthers produces some structures in their gold ribbon series that would be appropriate for this era. There are wood sided stores, a one roon school house, etc. I've assembled one of these kits and they are nice. Check out your Walthers reference book for pictures.