Why use the Official Modelrailroading Supplies (TM)?

[Autobus Prime]

Folks:

I was reading a relatively new hobby magazine the other day and was struck by the constant mention of "Woodland Scenics Cement", "WS Plaster Cloth", and similar proprietary substitutes for common hardware-store items.

I can understand using an expensive proprietary supply like ground foam or scribed siding when there isn't any common alternative, but things like the Scenic Cement puzzle me. It's glue. White glue works fine and is cheap. Why spend more?

The same goes for Plaster Cloth. Plaster is really cheap stuff. Buy a ten pound bag of plaster of Paris, and a few rolls of paper towels from Target, and you can build plenty of mountains. Sure, with the kitchen towels you'll have to build up a layer or two more than you'd need with brown towels and Hydrocal. So? It's cheap, and you can get the supplies anywhere.

I have to assume that people are afraid to try the cheap ways, because they assume that only the expensive ones will work. Or perhaps people just like spending money. Maybe somebody can enlighten me in my blind ignorance.

[Don Z]

Perhaps it's something as simple as the magazine saying 'Thank You' to Woodland Scenics for spending their advertising money with that magazine...

"Jim, if you commit to 3 ads per month in our magazine, we'll be sure to use and mention your products whenever we do a 'How To' article in our magazine...."

Don Z.

[Midnight Railroader]

Good point.

I also make my own ground foam--it is a LOT cheaper than the stuff you cn buy, and looks at least as good, if not better.

You can find non-WS plaster cloth, too, so you get the same benefits (less messy) without having to pay the "modeler's price."

Industrial grade towels (like you see in public restrooms) are available cheap at office-supply stores like Office Max and they really are better than regular roll-towels.

I also built the hand-held bug-zapper static-grass tool for about $6--and it makes a spark strong enough to (accidentally) start a fire--instead of buying the $100+ commercial version.

BTW-back in the Al Kalmbach days, the magazine's policy was to write about whatever worked, not to 'thank' manufacturers for buying ads.

[MisterBeasley]

Beginning modellers need this kind of information.  To those who say "Why use WS glue when Elmers is the same, and cheaper?"  I ask "Why use Elmers when generic white glue is the same and cheaper?"  When you're new to the hobby, every purchase has a daunting array of options, so telling people a specific brand that will do the job, even if it costs a bit more, will help them get over that initial hump.

Also, people can go to their LHS and get WS stuff.  If the LHS doesn't have it, chances are the owner can recommend a cheaper alternative, which starts the thought process of different products, and also opens the communications channel with the LHS.

[Midnight Railroader]

Beginning modellers need this kind of information.  To those who say "Why use WS glue when Elmers is the same, and cheaper?"  I ask "Why use Elmers when generic white glue is the same and cheaper?" 

True--if you can find a non-name white glue at the hardware store, buy it. I even used to find it at a nearby paint store.

[Autobus Prime]

Beginning modellers need this kind of information.  To those who say "Why use WS glue when Elmers is the same, and cheaper?"  I ask "Why use Elmers when generic white glue is the same and cheaper?"  When you're new to the hobby, every purchase has a daunting array of options, so telling people a specific brand that will do the job, even if it costs a bit more, will help them get over that initial hump.

Also, people can go to their LHS and get WS stuff.  If the LHS doesn't have it, chances are the owner can recommend a cheaper alternative, which starts the thought process of different products, and also opens the communications channel with the LHS.

MrB:
Well, you can buy Elmer's in gallon jugs and refill your small bottles. I haven't been able to find off-brands that way.

I dunno, Mr. B. Where I live, our hobby shops are anything but well-stocked, and where I used to live, there was no hobby shop. Hardware stores are everywhere.

I still remember my own days as a beginning modeler, and I woudn't have gotten too far on my budget, with the local sources I had, if the books I read had only talked about the Official Supplies (TM). But they didn't, and I got really far with white glue, posterboard, salvaged screen wire, and plaster. I just don't remember finding the options daunting, either. I just tried them all.

In fact, now that I think of it, when I'd come across some weird option in a book, I'd usually try it out, if it was cheap and I could get the materials.

So I guess I still don't get it.

[MisterBeasley]

I will readily confess that I go to A.C. Moore arts and crafts supply store more often than I go to my LHS.  They have cheap acrylic paint, Envirotex and off-brand plaster cloth, plus a better selection of balsa wood strips.  I go to my LHS for train stuff that I can't buy at hardware stores or craft shops.  (I spend more at my LHS, though.)

Still, if you tell someone to get WS Scenic Cement, they're going to come back with a product they know will work.  A total newbee will come back with Elmers, and use it straight instead of diluting it.  Or, he'll pick up carpenter's yellow glue instead, and be really upset with the color change.  If you say to use Hydrocal, you'll avoid the situation someone described here a while back where his castings didn't look very good - because he used a "substitute" that was more like gypsolite.

Experienced modellers know what substitutions can be made, so there's no problem when the article mentions WS products.  For those who are reading an article as a detailed how-to guide for a technique they've never tried, though, having a step-by-step "cookbook" with a detailed "list of ingredients" is a good way to improve their chances of success.

[Pathfinder]

The kind of info I like is found at this post: http://cs.trains.com/forums/1490779/ShowPost.aspx

I like the way he talks about what worked and did not work for him, ie Alumilite vs the Micro Mark prodcuts for casting.  This I can learn from.

[Scarpia]

I would suggest it's also a matter of scale. While the "name" brand is more costly, the savings vs time may not really matter as you're not using enough to warrent huge cost savings.

Such as plaster cloth. Using my own experience as an example, I went through 3 rolls of plastercloth on my layout, two rolls of generic, and one woodland scenics. The cheap stuff was $5 a roll at a local train show, I paid $7 to mail order the WS. So for $17, I was able to do my entire 4x8 layout. I was able to unroll, cut, dip in water, and lay the cloth in about two hours total (mostly because I ran out, and had to do it in two sessions).

So if I run to the box store of choice, to buy the cheaper materials, it's going to cost me an additinal hour of my time, not to mention $2-3 dollars in gas, and the cost of the mats. Sure, I may have enough to go around the basement, but I don't need that much at this time. I could have saved $10 or so, but I would have spent arguably twice the time.

I had a similar calculation with ballest. I spent $8.00 on a large WS ballest container, that is more than I needed for my whole layout.  Making my own, as there have been some good articles about on this forum, would be cheaper, but what am I really saving?  50% of $8 is still just $4, and when the time factor is doubled, well that may not be the best equation, at least with my time demands.

I've been experimenting with trees, and I'm currently growing two species of flowers to dry out and use as "free" tree structures. But I also just purchased two boxes of the Scenic Express supertrees while they were on sale at Walthers, and I think these are a great deal - each box makes a ton of good looking trees, and when you break down the per tree costs, it's pretty minimal. When I consider that I purchased the plants that I'm growing for $10 a piece, and I'll only get X number of trees annually from them, well, it's going to take some time for those to pay off (although I like the fact that I'll eventually have different forms on the layout). 

I'm not into wasting money, but as has been noted elsewhere, the hobby equation for me  takes into effect a lot more than just money.   Do I have the time to make my own plaster cloth? Of course I do. I'd just rather spend that time doing something that to me is more fun, such as constructing a building, or rolling stock. 

Cheers

[Midnight Railroader]

So if I run to the box store of choice, to buy the cheaper materials, it's going to cost me an additinal hour of my time, not to mention $2-3 dollars in gas,

Either you live a LONG way from Wal-Mart, or you get horribly bad mileage. Here's a tip: Combine trips. The next time you go for something else, pick up scenery supplies, too.

You have to drive to hobby shops, too, and mail-ordering costs postage.

[Midnight Railroader]

Experienced modellers know what substitutions can be made, so there's no problem when the article mentions WS products.  For those who are reading an article as a detailed how-to guide for a technique they've never tried, though, having a step-by-step "cookbook" with a detailed "list of ingredients" is a good way to improve their chances of success.

How about we teach new people how to do something other than spend money?

[kcole4001]

Good points about money saved versus time saved.

Sometimes it's simply easier to spend a couple of extra dollars to save a few hours.

Conversely, sometimes, if the savings are significant enough, the money saved will still go to hobby perchases, thus increasing the benefits to the hobby shop, hardware store, and the hobbyist.

 Like many things, it's situational. Having alternatives is good for beginners who can't afford a big outlay of cash when learning the ropes.

Starting earlier, rather than waiting until they can afford the name brand products, will help develop skills they'll need later as well. I'm just getting started actual building now at 42, and I wish I had access to many of the alternates illustrated in posts here years ago.

[BRAKIE]

I for one will continue to use WS scenery material while white glue will come from Elmers..

Why Because its easy to work with and a well proven material.Its as simple as that for me.

[Scarpia]

So if I run to the box store of choice, to buy the cheaper materials, it's going to cost me an additinal hour of my time, not to mention $2-3 dollars in gas,

Either you live a LONG way from Wal-Mart, or you get horribly bad mileage. Here's a tip: Combine trips. The next time you go for something else, pick up scenery supplies, too.

You have to drive to hobby shops, too, and mail-ordering costs postage.

6 miles, round trip is 12, truck and car get 20-24 mpg. I don't think my mileage is that bad, and we do combine trips. Closest decent hobby shop is at least 30 miles plus one way.

I order a lot from online trains, order more than $50 it's free shipping. 

I noticed you didn't mention the time factor I was discussing.

Cheers

[Dallas Model Works]

I think Mister Beaseley hit the nail on the head when he said, "you know you're going to get something that works."

I used to mix my own scenic cement using matte medium and water.

Now the time I have for modelling is so precious, I prefer to spend what time I have actually modelling rather than prepping the materials for modelling.

If it costs a little more, then that's fine -- I've gained a lot of precious time.

 

[Midnight Railroader]

So if I run to the box store of choice, to buy the cheaper materials, it's going to cost me an additinal hour of my time, not to mention $2-3 dollars in gas,

Either you live a LONG way from Wal-Mart, or you get horribly bad mileage. Here's a tip: Combine trips. The next time you go for something else, pick up scenery supplies, too.

You have to drive to hobby shops, too, and mail-ordering costs postage.

6 miles, round trip is 12, truck and car get 20-24 mpg. I don't think my mileage is that bad, and we do combine trips. Closest decent hobby shop is at least 30 miles plus one way.

I order a lot from online trains, order more than $50 it's free shipping. 

I noticed you didn't mention the time factor I was discussing.

Cheers

If the closest decent hobby shop is 30 miles each way, then all the more reason not to use "official" hobby supplies.

I also get a lot of satisfaction from not having to rely on a proprietary material made by someone else--if they go out of business, I'd be screwed. (And it does happen, especially in this hobby.) So I try to avoid that as much as I can nowadays.

I didn't mention the time factor because, although I am busy, too, it is a hobby, and everything I do is part of the fun, so I'm in no hurry. Then again, I handlay track to save money and get the results I want.

[Autobus Prime]

Experienced modellers know what substitutions can be made, so there's no problem when the article mentions WS products.  For those who are reading an article as a detailed how-to guide for a technique they've never tried, though, having a step-by-step "cookbook" with a detailed "list of ingredients" is a good way to improve their chances of success.

MrB:
But isn't the preservation and sharing of that accumulated experience a major reason why writing and publishing is a Good Thing?

I can definitely see your point, but I still say the newbies and experts alike (all of us have more to learn than we already know) would be better served by statements like "Make the rock castings from ACME Wiley-Lite Plaster". If I go into a train store and see "HobbyCraft Patent Rock Casting Plaster", I can pretty well assume it's for making rock castings.

A newbie might use undiluted white glue and run into trouble, certainly. The solution is to write "white glue, diluted 50%"). If you say "ACME Patent Cement", people who can't get it or don't want to shell out may just go ahead and use the undiluted glue anyway. Information has not been passed.

Please understand that I'm not saying that Official Materials (TM) with uniquely useful properties shouldn't be promoted. I'm looking more at those that substitute for commonly available stuff that you can pick up with the floor wax and light bulbs.

[loathar]

I'm sure if Gypsolite, Mod Podge, Elmers, Apple Barrel Craft Paint, etc...consistently bought ad space in the train mags, they'd get glowing reviews too. About the only non railroad company that I've seen advertise in train mags is Goo Gone.

[Scarpia]

If the closest decent hobby shop is 30 miles each way, then all the more reason not to use "official" hobby supplies.

I also get a lot of satisfaction from not having to rely on a proprietary material made by someone else--if they go out of business, I'd be screwed. (And it does happen, especially in this hobby.) So I try to avoid that as much as I can nowadays.

I didn't mention the time factor because, although I am busy, too, it is a hobby, and everything I do is part of the fun, so I'm in no hurry. Then again, I handlay track to save money and get the results I want.

MNR, this is again why I do mostly mail ordering. As I mentioned, Online trains is basically free shipping, and I even order a fair amount direct from Walthers. They're shipping is reasonable at the $75 product cost range, and more importantly, they have what I want/need. Their $8 shipping fee is in fact less than the gas I would spend driving to the halfway decent hobby shop that is 30 miles away.

Now I would love to have a train oriented LHS within 20 minutes, but I don't think that's going to happen.If I did, I would frequent it.

I agree with your idea on propriety materials, but I thought what we're talking about here were things like plaster cloth. These basics seem generic enough that it may not be an issue.

I applaud the handlayed track, I hope to get there too some day, it's just the turnouts that have me a bit nervous, and the "jigs" I've seen online don't seem, well, that inexepensive. I'd be worried that my frustrations in laying the turnout without a jig would drive me nuts. Kind of like trying to cut corner molding with a hand (not back) saw, and no mitre box. Sure, it can be done, but I'd be afraid of wasting time, material, and jacking up my irritation level.

Cheers 

[Autobus Prime]

I applaud the handlayed track, I hope to get there too some day, it's just the turnouts that have me a bit nervous, and the "jigs" I've seen online don't seem, well, that inexepensive. I'd be worried that my frustrations in laying the turnout without a jig would drive me nuts. Kind of like trying to cut corner molding with a hand (not back) saw, and no mitre box. Sure, it can be done, but I'd be afraid of wasting time, material, and jacking up my irritation level.

Cheers 

S:
I made a couple switches once. It went pretty well. The main thing I needed was more practice, but the final product did work. No template was used, but I did use an NMRA gauge to check clearances. Rail was spiked down through wooden ties and into waferboard (ouch) with Life-Like spikes. I bent some of them.

It's been a while, but I think what I did was scribe the rail base for half the frog angle and file to the scribed line, with the rail held in a vise. Points were done similarly, and I'm pretty sure I notched the stock rails a little so I wouldn't have to thin the point down as much. The only jig used was a pair of intersecting pencil lines drawn on the layout edge.

The main problems I ran into were in making sure the filed angle was consistent from end to end, which I solved by using the vise to hold the rail and to give a good eyeball reference for the file. Backing up the thinning end was a problem, too, and I don't remember what I did.

[Midnight Railroader]

it's just the turnouts that have me a bit nervous, and the "jigs" I've seen online don't seem, well, that inexepensive. I'd be worried that my frustrations in laying the turnout without a jig would drive me nuts. Kind of like trying to cut corner molding with a hand (not back) saw, and no mitre box. Sure, it can be done, but I'd be afraid of wasting time, material, and jacking up my irritation level.

 

When you're ready to give it a shot, there are several articles that describe how to lay turnouts without jigs--all it takes is practice, like most other modeling skills.

[ChrisNH]

I can understand using an expensive proprietary supply like ground foam or scribed siding when there isn't any common alternative, but things like the Scenic Cement puzzle me. It's glue. White glue works fine and is cheap. Why spend more?

Its been what I consider one of the more distressing trends in MRR. Everything seems to be done with woodland this and woodland that.. usually with a picture of the product prominently displayed as its being used. I suppose for some cost is no issue.. but I am always trying to find ways to save. Money for my hobby is a much lower priority than forumla, diapers, daycare, and gas..it seems like articles used to describe the generic product, then perhaps provide a few vendors.

Even things like ground foam there are cheaper available supplies. For instance, Scenic Express sells 64oz jugs of the stuff much cheaper then WS.

The one positive with WS is that they have become ubiquitous in every kind of hobby shop. In a pinch, I can get some of their stuff at the local wargame shop while I woud have to order the less expensive products from Scenic Express.

Regards,

Chris