Nice work !
Hopefully, the usual two scenarios in such cases won't occur in yours:
- criminal gets a slap on the wrist and is out the door.
- criminal finds out who it was who held him for the police, and decides to pay them a visit.
My money is on number1, and that he already has a record to boot :)
Messrs. Smith and Wesson can usually be relied on to handle the second scenario...
-George
"And the sons of Pullman porters and the sons of engineers ride their father's magic carpet made of steel..."
Way to be, Jess! What hobby store in Rochester was it?
Jim
Modeling the Baltimore waterfront in HO scale
tstage wrote: Jess,You never know what eventual impact your intercession may have on this young man, or his two comrades. In a slightly different (and less dramatic) scenario, I got "busted" by a high school English teacher 30+ years go for plagiarizing a class assignment. My teacher called me into her room after class one day, looked me straight in the eye, and asked me if there was anything I needed to tell her about the assignment that I had previously handed in the day before. I told her "No". I was then asked to sit at my desk until "something came to mind". Well, after what seemed like an eternity of silence "thinking it over" (probably about 5 minutes of actual elapsed time), I finally fessed up to the crime.In reality, that had actually been my 2nd plagiarized assignment in that particular English class within a 2 week span. I didn't caught - or at least confronted - the 1st time I cheated. But I sure did the 2nd time. And I applaud the fortitude of my English teacher for confronting me, and for the methodology she used to handle the situation.Needless to say, I learned a very valuable and timely lesson that day on honesty; one that I obviously have not forgotten. And I can honestly say that I have never plagiarized anything from that day forth.Jess, thanks for stepping in and getting involved in a situation that some of us might have been tempted to just "look the other way" at. That young man may actually someday look back on this unpleasant situation in his life and be thankful that it turned out the way it did.Tom
Jess,
You never know what eventual impact your intercession may have on this young man, or his two comrades. In a slightly different (and less dramatic) scenario, I got "busted" by a high school English teacher 30+ years go for plagiarizing a class assignment.
My teacher called me into her room after class one day, looked me straight in the eye, and asked me if there was anything I needed to tell her about the assignment that I had previously handed in the day before. I told her "No". I was then asked to sit at my desk until "something came to mind". Well, after what seemed like an eternity of silence "thinking it over" (probably about 5 minutes of actual elapsed time), I finally fessed up to the crime.
In reality, that had actually been my 2nd plagiarized assignment in that particular English class within a 2 week span. I didn't caught - or at least confronted - the 1st time I cheated. But I sure did the 2nd time. And I applaud the fortitude of my English teacher for confronting me, and for the methodology she used to handle the situation.
Needless to say, I learned a very valuable and timely lesson that day on honesty; one that I obviously have not forgotten. And I can honestly say that I have never plagiarized anything from that day forth.
Jess, thanks for stepping in and getting involved in a situation that some of us might have been tempted to just "look the other way" at. That young man may actually someday look back on this unpleasant situation in his life and be thankful that it turned out the way it did.
Tom
Wow...you're such a hardened criminal LOL.
I'd liken that to "jaywalking" as a perpetrator in the criminal world.
I could only Hope my past was as troubled as yours
Kenfolk wrote: Way to go! When I pointed out a shoplifter to wallyworld the store employee acted like she could care less and wanted to ignore it. I insisted it made prices higher for the rest of us. She called the person back to the checkout, removed the pilfered items, then let the person go merrily on her way. Duh.No wonder so many are inclined to try it.
Way to go!
When I pointed out a shoplifter to wallyworld the store employee acted like she could care less and wanted to ignore it. I insisted it made prices higher for the rest of us. She called the person back to the checkout, removed the pilfered items, then let the person go merrily on her way. Duh.
No wonder so many are inclined to try it.
NOT where I live! The cops and courts make WAY too much money off of fines, court costs and probation. Plus you get your name, address and picture on the front page of the local paper!(It's a small town...)
Mailman56701 wrote: Nice work ! Hopefully, the usual two scenarios in such cases won't occur in yours:- criminal gets a slap on the wrist and is out the door.- criminal finds out who it was who held him for the police, and decides to pay them a visit. My money is on number1, and that he already has a record to boot :)
I've prosecuted hundreds of similar cases, and not once has the defendant even threatened revenge on the person making the arrest. The consequences of such would be devastating compared to the penalty for shoplifting.
A "slap on the wrist" is likely IF (1) it's a first offense and (2) you consider a fine and probably probation and certainly a criminal record a slap. Personally, I think it's appropriate. Giving someone hard time for a first offense $80 shoplifting would be pretty harsh.
Mostly I'm proud of Red Horse. If more people had his courage, we'd have far less crime.
- Harry
Way to go Jess!!! I work in retail, (I won't say for who), and even if we witness first hand, a shoplifter taking something, no matter how much, if we touch him/her, or try in any way to detain him/her, we will be immediately dismissed. Company policy.. We get ripped off on a daily, almost hourly, bassis.
Dick
Texas Chief
HarryHotspur wrote: Mailman56701 wrote: Nice work ! Hopefully, the usual two scenarios in such cases won't occur in yours:- criminal gets a slap on the wrist and is out the door.- criminal finds out who it was who held him for the police, and decides to pay them a visit. My money is on number1, and that he already has a record to boot :) I've prosecuted hundreds of similar cases, and not once has the defendant even threatened revenge on the person making the arrest. The consequences of such would be devastating compared to the penalty for shoplifting. A "slap on the wrist" is likely IF (1) it's a first offense and (2) you consider a fine and probably probation and certainly a criminal record a slap. Personally, I think it's appropriate. Giving someone hard time for a first offense $80 shoplifting would be pretty harsh.Mostly I'm proud of Red Horse. If more people had his courage, we'd have far less crime.
And if every law abiding citizen was packing heat, less criminals would be tempted! Look at the drop in crime in Kennesaw GA, when a law was passed that citizens there were required to own a weapon! The crime rate went to almost zero!
It's amazing what happens when criminals know that they aren't the only ones that have guns!
Rotor
Jake: How often does the train go by? Elwood: So often you won't even notice ...
Required to own a weapon? A gun? Good grief. I know many law abiding people who would be more likely to shoot themselves or the postman if they owned a gun. How is it enforced? I presume they aren't required to carry the gun with them at all times. Sounds a bit over reaching to me, but the results were great so perhaps it's a good idea.
Do you live near Kennesaw? Great Civil War museum there, with the original General 4-4-0.
Thanks for all the support on trying to take a bite out of crime!!!!
In New Hampshire there is what is called a "will full concealment law", which means we don't have to wait until the person leaves the store with the goods all we have to do is witness the concealment BUT from my past training as a store detective I knew that I could not let the kid out of my sight so that he could "dump" the goods and then sue for false arrest.
I never let the kid out of my sight and my old training kept him from realizing that he was being watched, what happens now, who knows, but like I said, I'd do it again.
In the years that I worked in the undercover retail biz I had apprehended over 300 bad guys and gals and had testified at over 200 court cases for shop lifting.
I would not expect anyone without the proper training to attempt to apprehend a shoplifter on their own, I was with a buddy so I had back up, even when I worked in loss prevention I always had a partner, today kids carry guns and they don't need to be bigger or stronger than you to do harm or worse, all they have to know how to do is aim and then thats all she wrote.
Please, if you see something like this happening let some one who is employed by the store know and if they choose to look the other way like the Wal-Mart employee did than at least YOU tried to save them some of their profits and do the right thing.
The world is becoming a dark place my friends, and no amount of money or stuff is worth loosing your life over.
Be well and please be careful.
Jess Red Horse.
Red Horse,
Aside from doing the shop owner a favor, you may have done the perp a major one as well! Assuming he was showing off - and not a habitual law breaker - this may be enough to convince him that the other side of the fence is an easier route.
Ha, he is lucky he didn't get the stuffing beat out of him!!!
Good Job!
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
You continue to show the meaning of responsible citizenship; from your service to your community as an EMT (I hope I got that right) to this act of selflessness, we all could stand to learn from you. All Americans should feel the calling to service, whether through charity, community government, military service, or just by helping out a neighbor. I think it's no minor point that you, as a Native American, are such a giving citizen when you don't exactly owe our country anything from a historical standpoint...! You are a fine American and I would be proud to know you.
Good on you!
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
Way to go Red Horse! We need MORE people to step up to the plate rather than turn the other way when crimes are being committed . . .
You have my respect!
I was a cop for nine years (many years ago) and taking revenge isn't unheard of. And the last thing they'd do is publicly threaten it <g>.
As to comparing it to a penalty for a lesser crime, no one said perps are smart. Violence occurs on a daily basis for much less.
As to "slap on the wrist", I personally had cases (mostly dui) with lessened senteces and/or completely dismissed for such reasons as the judge liked the perp's personality, etc. (usually, a woman perp...). I remember once that the judge dismissed a case because the perp co-operated at the time of arrest by not fighting us, lol.
Fwiw.
HarryHotspur wrote: Required to own a weapon? A gun? Good grief. I know many law abiding people who would be more likely to shoot themselves or the postman if they owned a gun. How is it enforced? I presume they aren't required to carry the gun with them at all times. Sounds a bit over reaching to me, but the results were great so perhaps it's a good idea.Do you live near Kennesaw? Great Civil War museum there, with the original General 4-4-0.
Harry, I live on the southside of metro ATL. I've been by the museum, but not in it yet. I will go one day! There's also the Southeastern Railway Museum in Duluth. I've been there, and got a cab ride with The Kid in a 44 tonner. If you get a chance, I recommend it.
Here's the link: http://www.srmduluth.org/default.shtml
Here's a link to the law requiring a gun in Kennesaw: http://www.rense.com/general9/gunlaw.htm
The majority of items stolen(by count not value)in the companies which I worked for, were stolen by 13year old kids, give or take a year. The thieves that go for more expensive items tended to be adults. Not surprisingly at all, the vast majority of kids that smoke began at the same age.
Little funny...on my first day as manager trainee at the shaft, Sean(the part timer) and I were putting out stock. A kid(about 14-15) comes in and Sean whispers to me that everytime this kid is in, blank audio tapes go missing. So instead of confronting the kid, I go and put out battries which were on the otherside of the gondola from the tapes. "You don't have to watch me." the kid says. I nearly burst out laughing. "I'm putting out batteries, need any? Besides, after hearing you say that, maybe I should be watching you. Watching you very carefully." I never accused him(without proof they start whining and try to sue)of anything. The next six months we didn't lose anything to shoplifting kids. In all those years in sales, I only had to swear out an official statement for the Police once. Most malls and dept stores had a no under 16 without parent policy back then. Then the lawyers got all over them and just threw the doors open for ametuer boosters.
When I go shopping alone(which is pretty rare these days)I always look like I must work there. I always stand when riding the subway(even more rare since I'm 150 miles from NYC these days). I've always done what I could to prevent the activity of the bad guys rather than catching them afterwards. I'll leave the arrests and convictions to those trained for it. It's like a train dispatcher on your model railroad. you need to know where everyone is and what they're doing and they need to know that you're on the job. Still, even with all the customer service and security precautions, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to pilfer a few dollars worth of stuff from most retail stores. I've never seen anyone stealing in my LHS, but then again, I'm usually there when they aren't very busy.
KUDOS to all the honest people looking out for our LHS owners without whom our hobby would become quite a bit unpleasant.
Rotor -
Thanks for the info. That gun law is fascinating. And thanks for the Museum info. I get to Atlanta once every couple of years or so, so I'll check it out.
The museum on Kennesaw absolutely blew me away and I have only a moderate interest in Civil War history. Frankly, I only went there to see the loco, but the entire museum is terrific. I have no idea how a small town was able to build it. I planned to stay 45 minutes and stayed about 3 hours. I would have stayed longer if I could.
Jess--
GREAT story! I'm really proud of you, and hopefully this kid will find out through the court system that what he thought might be 'kinda fun to do' actually ISN'T.
Made me think of something that happened with a couple of my very favorite students last year in high school. We were in my office talking about letters of recommendation to colleges, and while I was interviewing them (and I really LOVE these two guys, they were just incredible students and a lot of fun!) I happened to ask them if they'd contacted their part-time employer about a letter, also. They grinned and said yes, they had, and that part of it was taken care of. Curious, I asked them what their part-time employ consisted of.
"Stealing," one of the chuckled.
After I picked myself up off the floor, they told me. They worked for one of the young men's uncles at a Cineplex. Their job was to see if they could shoplift from the concession stand without getting caught--the theater was losing money in the concession stand, and the uncle, who owned the Cineplex, figured that if he could get two clean-cut Catholic boys to come in and try and shoplift candy and popcorn, he could also find out which employees were just letting it happen without reporting it. The more they told me about it, the harder I laughed, so I phoned the uncle at the Cineplex and he affirmed it. Whatever these two kids had done had helped drop the losses from the concession stand about 60% because it had made the employees MUCH more aware of what was going on. In fact, every Saturday night, when my two students went to the movie, the employees at the concession stand were so much on the ball, that NOBODY got away with anything. Which is exactly what these two hoped for.
One of the students is going to Boston College this year, the other is going to Cambridge. What scares me is that they'll be within about 40 miles of each other--God only knows what they're plotting--World Domination, probably, LOL!
Whatever it is, I'm sure going to miss those two guys next year!
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
Sawyer Berry
Clemson University c/o 2018
Building a protolanced industrial park layout
Mailman56701 wrote: HarryHotspur wrote: Mailman56701 wrote: Nice work ! Hopefully, the usual two scenarios in such cases won't occur in yours:- criminal gets a slap on the wrist and is out the door.- criminal finds out who it was who held him for the police, and decides to pay them a visit. My money is on number1, and that he already has a record to boot :) I've prosecuted hundreds of similar cases, and not once has the defendant even threatened revenge on the person making the arrest. The consequences of such would be devastating compared to the penalty for shoplifting. A "slap on the wrist" is likely IF (1) it's a first offense and (2) you consider a fine and probably probation and certainly a criminal record a slap. Personally, I think it's appropriate. Giving someone hard time for a first offense $80 shoplifting would be pretty harsh.Mostly I'm proud of Red Horse. If more people had his courage, we'd have far less crime. I was a cop for nine years (many years ago) and taking revenge isn't unheard of. And the last thing they'd do is publicly threaten it <g>. As to comparing it to a penalty for a lesser crime, no one said perps are smart. Violence occurs on a daily basis for much less. As to "slap on the wrist", I personally had cases (mostly dui) with lessened senteces and/or completely dismissed for such reasons as the judge liked the perp's personality, etc. (usually, a woman perp...). I remember once that the judge dismissed a case because the perp co-operated at the time of arrest by not fighting us, lol. Fwiw.
In 35 years of practicing law, I have only heard of one case of revenge and that was against me, the prosecuting attorney, and was obviously only intended to scare me. I know it happens, but it is extremely rare, except in domestic situations.
As for lessened sentences, I'n not sure exactly what you mean. The sentence is in the discretion of the judge, within the range proscribed by statute. Granted, judges don't always give the maximum sentence nor should they. But of course a sentence should never be based on improper reasons. In your jurisdiction, are judges elected by popular vote? If so, ironically they tend to be the worse judges.
In my jurisdiction, a judge has no authority to dismiss a case, so I haven't had to deal with that problem.
Rotorranch wrote: HarryHotspur wrote: Mailman56701 wrote: Nice work ! Hopefully, the usual two scenarios in such cases won't occur in yours:- criminal gets a slap on the wrist and is out the door.- criminal finds out who it was who held him for the police, and decides to pay them a visit. My money is on number1, and that he already has a record to boot :) I've prosecuted hundreds of similar cases, and not once has the defendant even threatened revenge on the person making the arrest. The consequences of such would be devastating compared to the penalty for shoplifting. A "slap on the wrist" is likely IF (1) it's a first offense and (2) you consider a fine and probably probation and certainly a criminal record a slap. Personally, I think it's appropriate. Giving someone hard time for a first offense $80 shoplifting would be pretty harsh.Mostly I'm proud of Red Horse. If more people had his courage, we'd have far less crime. And if every law abiding citizen was packing heat, less criminals would be tempted! Look at the drop in crime in Kennesaw GA, when a law was passed that citizens there were required to own a weapon! The crime rate went to almost zero!It's amazing what happens when criminals know that they aren't the only ones that have guns!Rotor
Oh man that law's problay got some left wingers foaming Neato!
HarryHotspur wrote: Mailman56701 wrote: HarryHotspur wrote: Mailman56701 wrote: Nice work ! Hopefully, the usual two scenarios in such cases won't occur in yours:- criminal gets a slap on the wrist and is out the door.- criminal finds out who it was who held him for the police, and decides to pay them a visit. My money is on number1, and that he already has a record to boot :) I've prosecuted hundreds of similar cases, and not once has the defendant even threatened revenge on the person making the arrest. The consequences of such would be devastating compared to the penalty for shoplifting. A "slap on the wrist" is likely IF (1) it's a first offense and (2) you consider a fine and probably probation and certainly a criminal record a slap. Personally, I think it's appropriate. Giving someone hard time for a first offense $80 shoplifting would be pretty harsh.Mostly I'm proud of Red Horse. If more people had his courage, we'd have far less crime. I was a cop for nine years (many years ago) and taking revenge isn't unheard of. And the last thing they'd do is publicly threaten it <g>. As to comparing it to a penalty for a lesser crime, no one said perps are smart. Violence occurs on a daily basis for much less. As to "slap on the wrist", I personally had cases (mostly dui) with lessened senteces and/or completely dismissed for such reasons as the judge liked the perp's personality, etc. (usually, a woman perp...). I remember once that the judge dismissed a case because the perp co-operated at the time of arrest by not fighting us, lol. Fwiw.In 35 years of practicing law, I have only heard of one case of revenge and that was against me, the prosecuting attorney, and was obviously only intended to scare me. I know it happens, but it is extremely rare, except in domestic situations.As for lessened sentences, I'n not sure exactly what you mean. The sentence is in the discretion of the judge, within the range proscribed by statute. Granted, judges don't always give the maximum sentence nor should they. But of course a sentence should never be based on improper reasons. In your jurisdiction, are judges elected by popular vote? If so, ironically they tend to be the worse judges.In my jurisdiction, a judge has no authority to dismiss a case, so I haven't had to deal with that problem.
This was a judge of the Federal Court System. If you'd like personal info. about him, feel free to pm me.
Fortunatly, he retired several years ago.
Dave Vollmer wrote: Red Horse,You continue to show the meaning of responsible citizenship; from your service to your community as an EMT (I hope I got that right) to this act of selflessness, we all could stand to learn from you. All Americans should feel the calling to service, whether through charity, community government, military service, or just by helping out a neighbor. I think it's no minor point that you, as a Native American, are such a giving citizen when you don't exactly owe our country anything from a historical standpoint...! You are a fine American and I would be proud to know you.Good on you!
If we do not except some level of responsibility to our community than it is sending a clear message that people do not care about what is going on in their environment and this only lets the bad element think that our town is an easy target, I have a responsibility to my town, my neighbors and our business owners.
I was raised not to turn a blind eye to those things that bring down our communities safety, security or the right to live in a peaceful setting.
Our Native Elders teach us that we should not carry a grudge against the crimes of the past generations that may have contributed to the take over of our country, we are taught to continue to have pride in our communities to protect the people of our neighborhoods and to try our best to work with in the laws to help keep our homes, streets and towns safe from predatory people.
I'm honored to be part of this online community and I value the opportunity to get to know non Natives who have proven again and again that there is honor in all cultures and that I can share this hobby experience without feeling like there is an underlying agenda by anyone I've been in contact with here.
As citizens we should take a measure of responsibility towards our fellow men and women, our neighbors, I will not look away when an elder is being robbed of her purse, I will not look away when kids or animals are being abused, I will not close my eyes to the actions of those who come into my neighborhood to steal, damage or interrupt the lives of those who are only trying to do their best to make a nice life.
Bad people don't like to operate out in the light of watching eyes, bad people will find another weaker target when confronted with alert and aware neighbors, unfortunately sometimes the only thing we can do is make them uncomfortable and they end up in some one else's area, we can't save the world but we can stand united for what we believe in.
All the Native people I've grown up with don't think twice about making a difference, today so many have the "I'll take care of my own" attitude that if we don't react on behalf of others than no one else will, sure I think about my safety sometimes but I'm lucky, I've had some good military training as an MP so that training will guide me in how I respond to an incident, if I think my actions will put another at risk I will wait until it is safe to alert the right authorities, The last thing I want to happen is for someone else to get harmed because I recklessly tried to be a "hero", My Mom didn't raise a hero or a fool.
I'd like to think most people still care about those around them, I find this to be true in smaller towns than in big cities, some think it is safe to keep their head in the sand but by doing so they only make it easier for bad people to take over.
I would never expect people to place themselves in harms way, it is up too the individual, what skills they have to deal with predatory people but in the least, get a good description of them and any autos they may be in and when safe to do so Call the police, in an age with some many cell phones it is easier than ever to make a difference.
And Sir, I'm very honored to know you and the others here who care enough to make a difference.
Good for you, Red Horse. You took a chance, but you had the training and backup you needed. The world needs more like you. The sad part is that these young offenders don't receive the punishment they deserve. I don't know what the youth justice system is like in the U.S., but here in Canada it's a joke. It's a revolving door. I could tell you many stories of young offenders who laugh (some literally) at the justice system as they take the ride through its revolving doors to emerge on the streets again to commit more crimes, most much more serious than shoplifting. And that's just in the city where I live. But, those stories would be off-topic so they will have to go untold.
..... Bob
Beam me up, Scotty, there's no intelligent life down here. (Captain Kirk)
I reject your reality and substitute my own. (Adam Savage)
Resistance is not futile--it is voltage divided by current.
Rotorranch wrote: And if every law abiding citizen was packing heat, less criminals would be tempted! Look at the drop in crime in Kennesaw GA, when a law was passed that citizens there were required to own a weapon! The crime rate went to almost zero!It's amazing what happens when criminals know that they aren't the only ones that have guns!Rotor
"An armed society is a polite society"-Robert A. Heinlein
***Red Horse, Excellent! May just have saved the future direction of several individuals.
***Rotor, Howdy neighbor...(in north GA here). Speaking of Kennesaw, I need to go pick up a couple locos I left at the LHS there. Only took me close to 10 years of living here before I learned about "The General" and went and saw it. Cool little museum.
Rob
Cederstrand wrote: ***Red Horse, Excellent! May just have saved the future direction of several individuals.***Rotor, Howdy neighbor...(in north GA here). Speaking of Kennesaw, I need to go pick up a couple locos I left at the LHS there. Only took me close to 10 years of living here before I learned about "The General" and went and saw it. Cool little museum. Rob
Rob, "Hey" right back at ya!
I've only lived here 32 years, and I still haven't seen it! But it's on my "things to do" list!
There is so much stuff to do here that I'm still finding out about. And the more I learn, the less I've seen!
topcopdoc wrote: Be careful my friend, I received permenant injuries to my neck doing the same thing. The suspect was a juvenile and it took myself and 3 other men to finally subdue him. In addition the suspect signed counter complaints against me for assault. Then his mother filed a civil suit against me.When all was settled he was found guilty and the civil suit was dismissed. He got a slap on the wrist and I am typing this with a pain in my neck which has been there since 1983.Doc
Be careful my friend, I received permenant injuries to my neck doing the same thing. The suspect was a juvenile and it took myself and 3 other men to finally subdue him.
In addition the suspect signed counter complaints against me for assault. Then his mother filed a civil suit against me.
When all was settled he was found guilty and the civil suit was dismissed. He got a slap on the wrist and I am typing this with a pain in my neck which has been there since 1983.
Doc
Well, it's certainly easy to see where that kid got his sense of right and wrong. I AM sorry for the pain you've endured, but since you were injured, ever think of turning the tables on his mom and suing her? Too many kids today know that their parents will defend them to the end. I know if I'd done what that kid did, I'd STILL be sitting on a pillow; and I'm 53 now!
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR