I am planning an HO model RR for my grandchildren in my basement (they're 4 1/2 and we'll be modeling the island of Sodor, Thomas's home). The area I have is 14 feet by 16 feet. I have two questions on wall preparation:
1. Two of the walls are poured concrete (below grade). Is there any problem with painting them light blue with a water sealing paint? I do not plan on insulating the walls or heating the area since basement temperature only rarely goes below 55F in the winter and never below 50F. I run two dehumidifiers in the summer keeping the dew point below 65F and the temperature never goes above 80F.
2. After constructing the benchwork, I plan on putting masonite panels between the benchwork and the joists above to separate the space above the layout from the rest of the basement. The panels would be slipped on hooks on the joists and fasteners on the benchwork. Handles on the backside would allow easy removal of the masonite panels for access to the layout. A fabric skirt would enclose the area below the benchwork. This would be instead of the conventional approach of building studded/sheetrocked walls. Does anyone see a problem with this approach?
I plan the following finishing for the train room:
Ceiling: 2 ft by 2 ft suspended ceiling. Five fluorescent fixtures behind five of these ceiling panels.
Floor: Vinyl tile or vinyl parquet flooring.
Access: a four foot wide opening will be provided from the rest of the basement for access. This will be closed by a curtain rather than a door.
Electrical: Two steel columns will be slightly into the train room at either side of the access. I plan on encasing these columns in wood with electrical service enclosed in this encasement. One switch on a column will control the room lights. In a second switch box on the same column will control two electrical circuits. The first switch will control two outlets on each column for layout power and a second will control two outlets on each column for other power outlets. Additional outlets and power strips will be built into the benchwork as required and plugged into these outlets on the columns.
I would appreciate any comments or suggestions to improve this plan.
Thanks,
Bill
Welcome to the forum!
Just a couple of things I saw right off:
Regarding the moisture issue - I have the same sort of basement that needs a dehumidifier to keep ahead of the moisture. I strongly recommend that all wood bench work is sealed (primed) so you won't get any swelling that will likely translate into the trackwork. While I didn't use masonite, I imagine that it will be quite susceptible to moisture as well.
I don't have a suspended ceiling, but would be concerned that it might generate dust particles. The more dust, the more issues you will have with keeping the tracks clean. Perhaps someone else here who has installed one above their layout can give you a better feel for how it worked for them?
Depending on the area you live in, I would suggest a dehumidifier. I live in New England and the cellar can get quite humid at times during warmer weather. I have a dehumidifier with a condensate pump to automatically remove the condensate from the humidifier. This tends to minimize expansion and contraction of the layout. I also keep a small fan on low speed on the floor to keep air moving during the summer. Moist air can form mold up to about twelve inches from the floor if the air is not moving.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
Welcome to the forums! To get you started on Thomas, take a look at this link - it's about the original Thomas layout! http://www.pegnsean.net/~railwayseries/ffarquhar.htm .
As far as the ceiling goes, for the drop-in panels, use the fiberglass backed vinyl faced panels. The fiberglass is a little itchy when putting up, but the vinyl face will actually hold any dust that may accumulate in the area, To clean, use a Swifter, or one of the other "magnetic" dust clothes - they grab the dirt rather than moving it around like a vacuum often does.
As previously mentioned, a dehumidifyer is a plus, and on warm days an air conditioner will lower the humidity also (I have mine on right now as it is 84 degrees with about a zillion percent humidity!!).
If you do a search on the forum under "Thomas" you will find several threads that may be helpful to you also. Happy Sodor Railroading!!
Have fun with your trains
1. Sealing walls:
(a)Seal walls to keep out dampness. (b)Buy a good DE-Humidifier. Do you have a sump pump? (c)Build Storage up off the floor. Basements can flood when it rains, or sump stops working.
2. Seal off ceiling:
Yes, to minimize dust and noise from above.
3. Other:
Locate a master switch to turn everything from the RR off/on. (b) BUY a pad with cross-hair lines & draw you room to scale in ink. Then pencil in your layout - again to scale - allowing for doors opening, windows, closets, stairways, etc. for accessibility.
Again, I did not read all the first post and did not see the dehumidifier mentioned. Sorry.
As far as the legs for the table go. I pre-drill mine and insert a lag bolt in the hole. Later if I have to make height adjustments, I use an open end wrench to "tweak" the height. Easier than making and installing shims. It takes just a little movement if you calculated the height measurements carefully. I use the length that puts a 1 1/2 inch or so into the leg and leave maybe 3/4 inch including the bolt head sticking out of the leg. Be carefully so you do not split the leg when inserting the bolt. I am not at home right now but I believe I used 5/16 lag bolts. If you have a finished floor, you will need something to put under the bolt head. I saw this cheap height fix some years ago in MRR magazine. There may be better options at Home Depot as I did this some years ago.
MAbruce wrote:I don't have a suspended ceiling, but would be concerned that it might generate dust particles. The more dust, the more issues you will have with keeping the tracks clean. Perhaps someone else here who has installed one above their layout can give you a better feel for how it worked for them?
I have a suspended ceiling in my layout room (installed before the benchwork) and dust is not an issue. As Ivanhen mentions, don't drywall the ceiling - a suspended ceiling allows easy access to pipes and wiring, and also allows for easy re-positioning of light fixtures, if necessary. I used the fibre panels, but the fibre glass with the vinyl facing works well, too.
Wayne
I'd recommend at least some lighting on dimmer switches. This will allow you to run the layout "at night" with headlights and structure illumination providing most of the lighting, without otherwise blacking out the room.
With your plans, which seem to be well thought out and complete, I'm afraid that the kids will outgrow the "Thomas years" before the layout is complete, though. Plan ahead, and use larger radius curves so that you can run "real" trains. Maybe some others have an idea of when kids lose interest in Thomas?
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Bill,
You are so fortunate to have that dedicated space for a RR, and it sounds like your prep work is right on target. I had three basement layouts when I lived in Chicago & Joliet years ago, and can appreciate your situation.
A couple of comments........
Painting concrete surfaces is a must, as it eliminates dust and just looks good. Make sure your prep the surface and use a high quality concrete paint - with two coats.
I "assume" you have a dry basement. I had mine flood twice after my Joliet layout was built. Fortunately it was less than a foot of water each time, and my "stuff" was all set higher than that. But, it sure was a mess!!!!!
The dehumidifier is a must - as you obviously know. Get a good one, and it will pay for itself over time.
Once the layout is built, you will find a rug or two will sure help your feet feel better!
ENJOY!
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
MisterBeasley wrote: With your plans, which seem to be well thought out and complete, I'm afraid that the kids will outgrow the "Thomas years" before the layout is complete, though. Plan ahead, and use larger radius curves so that you can run "real" trains. Maybe some others have an idea of when kids lose interest in Thomas?
I don't know about that Mr B - my grandsons are 9 & 12 and still like Thomas, Percy, James and the rest of the gang!! although I admit that they also like the "army" train, and the sound locos - Challenger, Turbine, a few diesels!!
lvanhen wrote:DON'T DRYWALL THE CEILING!!! I spent 40+ years as a carpenter/remodeler and ripped down more than a few basement ceilings to access pipes/wiring!! Most of your house' wiring & plumbing can be accessed from the basement. It may be a pain to take down a few drop-in panels, but nothing like ripping down & repairing drywall!! My
I agree comepletely. Unless you're putting a dedicated home theater in your basement and you need to control sound, you can do some great ceilings without having to use drywall.
I'm 27 and still find myself watching Thomas and friends on PBS. Not exactly for the story... I just like watching the trains on the tracks.
Mike
I want to thank all of you who read and responded to my recent posting. A number of good suggestions were made that I will incorporate into the plan. I was interested that no one commented on using removable masonite panels to separate the layout from the rest of the basement. This seemed like an ideal solution to me so I will plan on proceeding with it. I was also interested that several of you concurred with the plan of sealing and painting the concrete wall rather than studding it and applying insulation and sheetrock. This approach seems like a lot less work.
I will definitely seal the benchwork - it never occurred to me. Also I liked the idea of using lag bolts as leg adjusters for the benchwork - I will definitely do that and I have seen furniture foot "cups" at Home Depot that the lag bolts should fit in nicely.
It also didn't occur to me to install dimmable lights. I will defitely divide the lighting into two circuits: one a single light in the center of the room and the second for the four fixtures in the corners of the room. I'll look into dimmable fluorescent fixtures, but if I can't find them this will provide some dimmer lighting. I will not have a single master switch, but rather four separate switchs located together. This should make turning off the power secure.
I have lived in the house for twenty five years and never had water in the basement and we do not have a sump pump, so that isn't an issue. However I will run two dehumidifers with one in the train room.
I hope to have trains running this spring and the grandchildren should still be into Thomas then. However, I don't know when my grandchildren will outgrow Thomas or if there will be additional grandkids interested in Thomas. So I will plan on having graduation potential into the layout. I am planning on a minimum 24" radius curves (with easements) and a maximum 2% grade on the mainline. Features I will definitely incorporate are a harbor, yard, and mine (with a trestle on the approach). I will use 18 inch radius curves in the approach to the harbor and the mine. I also am considering a 10% grade up to the mine (so a helper engine will be required). These features should all fit a conventional model RR. I am currently reviewing the previous Thomas threads for other ideas to incorporate.
Once again thanks for your ideas and suggestions.
A small item but you might want to consider if you have not so far. Emptying a dehumidifier can be trying after a while. I have a small condensate pump that cost me about $60.00 and has a 3/8 inch barb output pipe for 3/8 clear vinyl hose. I removed the drip tank from the dehumidifier and used a section of old washer hose since there is a garden hose connector in the dehumidifier. I drilled a hose through the wood just on top of the cement foundation. The pumps have a check valve. I bought the pump from McMaster-Carr, an online industrial supplier I use a lot. Home Depot may have the pumps.
Bill_C wrote: 1. Two of the walls are poured concrete (below grade). Is there any problem with painting them light blue with a water sealing paint? I do not plan on insulating the walls or heating the area since basement temperature only rarely goes below 55F in the winter and never below 50F. I run two dehumidifiers in the summer keeping the dew point below 65F and the temperature never goes above 80F.
Fully finish the basement. This will do several things, all beneficial.
"Fully finishing" a basement is a very basic thing, according to most municipal building codes. Essentially, you only need 2x3 or 2x4 stud walls, 1/2" or thicker drywall, some sort of ceiling and floor treatment, and electrical outlets and lighting fixtures at set intervals. Most homeowners can do ALL of this work by themselves at very little cost (under two grand for materials, for the average basement)
Use 2x4 panels instead. They're more commonly available, and between the lower cost per square foot of the panels and the reduced costs of the track systems, you'll save more money.
Concrete floors don't really like vinyl tile flooring. Self-adhesive tiles won't work unless you first seal the floor with an epoxy-based paint specifically made to bond to a CLEAN concrete floor (you have to wash & dry the floor first, to remove concrete dust).
I recommend sealing the floor with any "concrete paint" of your choice, and then adding CARPET. Remember that note about heat loss from the concrete? That includes the floor. Adding wall to wall carpeting adds an insulating layer to the floor that's surprisingly effective. And it doesn't have to be involved: throw down carpeting that's not padded underneath, nor affixed to the floor. A little furniture around the walls will keep it from shifting, and if you have advanced warning of flooding, the carpet can be removed easily. Carpeting will also add to the comfort level of the floor and will make the space more inviting.
Prehung doors cost less than $100; if you MUST add a wall to isolate the layout from the rest of the basement, use a door.
But why tuck the layout away in a hidden room? If the layout's not going to be all that big, why not just make it a part of the rest of the basement space? The overall space will look larger, which is generally a plus (humans tend to get irritated in small rooms; we evolved outdoors)
This might not be up to code, and is a whole lot of work for little gain anyway. Building outlets into the benchwork IS out of code, since it turns your layout into a structural member of the house. Design the layout so it wraps around the columns, getting them completely out of the way. Run the electrical lines as two new circuits out of the main breaker box and through the new finished walls of the basement: one for lighting and one for outlets. This is a whole lot more conventional, faster to do, and definitely building code friendly.
I've built three "lifetime layouts" over the past 12 years (I keep having to move, darn it!). In every case I've finished the basement FIRST, and have never regretted my decision to do so. I'm an active operator in several round-Robin operating groups in the Chicagoland area; everyone agrees that the layouts in fully finished basements are MUCH nicer to visit.
Ray Breyer
Modeling the NKP's Peoria Division, circa 1943