to back up David, I have been using DCC since 1999 and Dynatrol command control before that for 10 years. Most of my switches are insulfrog and they work just fine.
Bob
You might find these sites helpful:
http://www.wiringfordcc.com/
http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a.tcl?topic=Wiring+for+DCC
Not sure what code or bradn you are useing but for Code 100, I have Atlas to be the best out of the box with the best price. I have close to 50switches on mine and a bunch ued at my club and we never have had a problem.
Oh it escapes me though what "kind of" of switch they are though.
Best Regards, Big John
Kiva Valley Railway- Freelanced road in central Arizona. Visit the link to see my MR forum thread on The Building of the Whitton Branch on the Kiva Valley Railway
There is a range in quality and price between the most basic and those that are really very nice and even extremely close to scale. For the sake of simplicity, I will add my voice to the very nice Peco Insulfrog Code 83. They have metal frogs and the switch points are kept positively to each side by an over-centre spring.
Some of us have taken strongly to building our own turnouts out of rail stock and PCB ties using the Fast Tracks system. Joe Fugate has a an excellent hybrid that he has created out of Central Valley kits and has used some of the Fast Tracks methods. Proto 87 makes very nice turnouts, but I have never seen, used, or priced them.
If you want readily available and very reliable turnouts, get the Peco Code 83 Streamline insulfrog variety. They work very well.
davidmbedard wrote: Nope, go for the Insulfrogs. David B
Nope, go for the Insulfrogs.
David B
Just goes to show you how much I know about DCC. LOL, after re-reading that it makes sense to do insul-frogs.
Here's my attempt at helping answer this question.
The short answer is to prefer insulfrog since they're easier to install and maintain. Electrofrog should have extra contacts installed outside the turnout to route the power since relying on the points to route the power to the frog long-term is not recommended. The points will get dirty and power routing will become unreliable.
Electrofrog turnouts will result in more shorts when people run a turnout they've forgotten to throw. Shorts on a DCC layout are bad and you should work to minimize how often they happen. Insulfrog turnouts will help you minimize shorts.
So check out the link above, I explain things in more detail there.
Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon
Some locomotives will stall on track switches with a dead frog. (Croak! Oh, that's right, that is what live frogs say.) My choice is a live frog.
Mark
Ditto !!
Engineer Jeff NS Nut Visit my layout at: http://www.thebinks.com/trains/
markpierce wrote:Some locomotives will stall on track switches with a dead frog. (Croak! Oh, that's right, that is what live frogs say.) My choice is a live frog.Mark
Given that insulfrog (dead frog) turnouts are easier to install and maintain, you should try dead frog turnouts first. If your locos won't run over a dead frog without stalling, then go to live frog. If you must do live frog turnouts, consider putting an 1156 auto tail light in series with the frog feeder so a short on the frog won't damage anything or shut down a DCC layout.
Most modern all-wheel pickup locos work fine with dead frog turnouts. Only the shortest wheelbase locos (under 35 scale feet) may have a problem.
IMO, the default should be dead frog, and you should only go to live frog if you find that you must. Testing the two kinds of turnouts with your locos will tell you if dead frogs will work for you.
markpierce wrote: Some locomotives will stall on track switches with a dead frog. (Croak! Oh, that's right, that is what live frogs say.) My choice is a live frog. - Mark
Some locomotives will stall on track switches with a dead frog. (Croak! Oh, that's right, that is what live frogs say.) My choice is a live frog. - Mark
MARK:
Turmout's with 'LIVE FROGS' don't work on DCC. They 'SHORT'.
Older designs, (or locomotives with limited electrical wheel pickup), falter on Insulated 'dead' frogs.
Joe:Josel:Guiseppi:
I too have had good results with switch kits (Anderson, BK, & old Atlas [like CVT mit fibre ties). These all also had 'continuous' point-rails.
ln studying the CVT kits, the frogs appear to need cutting for DCC. If so...
1. WHERE DO YOU SPIKE the (newly cut) point-rails? 2. Does the 'tortioning' that occurs inhibit freedom of point movement, long term alignment, or are you using all #8's, 10's?
One inquiring mind wants to know.
I am running DCC only and removed all my atlas turnouts for Peco insulfrog turnouts I got two positive results.
1. No more shorts on DCC locomotives, even the Trix and Brawa locomotives do not short out.
2. Large steam has no issue on derailing on the peco turnouts.
I have also added turtoise motors to operate the turnouts and all is good.
I hope this helps.
Sean
Don Gibson wrote: markpierce wrote: Some locomotives will stall on track switches with a dead frog. (Croak! Oh, that's right, that is what live frogs say.) My choice is a live frog. - Mark MARK:Turmout's with 'LIVE FROGS' don't work on DCC. They 'SHORT'.
Huh??? Wrong. Every one of mine is live, and power routed. They only short in the instance JF eludes to, forgot to throw the switch.
Jeff:
And you haven't modified them out of the box, right? Please tell us the brand... or is it the afor-mentioned PECO 'Insulfrog'?
Don Gibson wrote: markpierce wrote: Some locomotives will stall on track switches with a dead frog. (Croak! Oh, that's right, that is what live frogs say.) My choice is a live frog. - Mark MARK:Turmout's with 'LIVE FROGS' don't work on DCC. They 'SHORT'.Older designs, (or locomotives with limited electrical wheel pickup), falter on Insulated 'dead' frogs.
Done properly, a live frog does NOT short. If you run the switch backwards, you can cause a short. And a powered frog certainly has to be isolated from the surrounding rails, but that's not a DCC thing.
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
OK Jeff. What Brand? (Backwards or Forwards)?
'Power Routing' Turnouts (Live frog): Peco 'Electrofrog', Shinohara, Tru-Scale, Anderson/BK, Railway Engineering, CVT(?), Fast Tracks(?) , require frog isolation for DCC.
Vail and Southwestern RR wrote: Don Gibson wrote: markpierce wrote: Some locomotives will stall on track switches with a dead frog. (Croak! Oh, that's right, that is what live frogs say.) My choice is a live frog. - Mark MARK:Turmout's with 'LIVE FROGS' don't work on DCC. They 'SHORT'.Older designs, (or locomotives with limited electrical wheel pickup), falter on Insulated 'dead' frogs.Done properly, a live frog does NOT short. If you run the switch backwards, you can cause a short. And a powered frog certainly has to be isolated from the surrounding rails, but that's not a DCC thing.
It is good to know I'm not the only one on this space-time-continuim, Newton-Einstein-Ohm planet. (And now for a totally irrelevant comment: it is too bad that the trade name "Kelvinator" [as in degrees Kelvin] disappeared from home refrigerators.)
Jeff Brand. They are all hand spiked. DC or DCC, doesn't matter, if it's gonna short, it's gonna short. You have to take the same precautions with both.
My goodness. Even if one goes the wrong way over a track switch without immediately shorting because of a dead frog, you are going to derail and possibly cause a short anyway. Derail or short, one is in trouble. Give me a live frog and not a stalled train! And don't engineers pay any attention to their trains? Sloppy is inconvenient when pretending, and can be deadly in the real world.
markpierce wrote:My goodness. Even if one goes the wrong way over a track switch without immediately shorting because of a dead frog, you are going to derail and possibly cause a short anyway. Derail or short, one is in trouble. Give me a live frog and not a stalled train! And don't engineers pay any attention to their trains? Sloppy is inconvenient when pretending, and can be deadly in the real world.Mark
True, Mark ... although I find the short upon derailing with dead frog turnouts thrown against you is fairly infrequent. And on a DCC layout, I'd rather go on the ground than short out.
Also, dead frog turnouts can be installed without the need to install live frog contacts and extra wiring. I accidentally discovered (when I forgot to wire up a live frog) that dead frogs worked fine with my locos. I began deliberately "forgetting" to install the frog power routing. Turnout installation was easier and things ran fine. Dead frogs became the standard on my layout once I saw how good they worked and how they were less work to install.
At the 2004 NMRA Convention in Seattle, I ran into Gary Segal -- the owner of a large, beautiful L&N layout that has been featured in MR. I asked Gary if he used live frog or dead frog turnouts on his layout?
"I started out using live frog turnouts, but after finding out that dead frogs worked fine, I moved to all dead frogs," Gary replied. Same as my discovery!
So I now recommend people try out dead frogs first and see if they think they'll work for them. If not, then live frog certainly works -- but on a DCC layout, one easy way to correct the shorting issue is to put an 1156 auto tail light bulb into the feeder going to the frog.
It's easy to say "people should remember to throw the dang turnout!" with live frogs to avoid a short -- but tell that to all the guys who's trains keep stalling several times in each monthly op session. We just don't have op sessions daily like the prototype -- and when people only operate a layout monthly they get rusty and forget things now and then.
Dead frogs isolates the issue to become their own problem -- no short (generally), so they just go on the ground -- the only train affected is their train -- not half the trains on the DCC layout.
Don Gibson wrote: OK Jeff. What Brand? (Backwards or Forwards)?'Power Routing' Turnouts (Live frog): Peco 'Electrofrog', Shinohara, Tru-Scale, Anderson/BK, Railway Engineering, CVT(?), Fast Tracks(?) , require frog isolation for DCC.
Of course the frog has to be isolated, that's the "done properly" part. But that's true in DC or DCC. The extra shorting opportunity with the live frog is from running against the switch. Again, that's a short, whether you are running DC or DCC. So, there's the choice if powering the frog, if your equipment demands it, or not powering the frog, if it doesn't. And, if you choose to power it, protecting yourself with the tail light bulbs makes a lot of sense.
I'm using FastTracks turnouts. So far I have not powered the frogs, though I have dropped feeds from many of them, in case I change my mind. I would not be shocked if I end up powering them in the yard, where the NW-2's will play, though I'd prefer not to. It's not built yet, so I don't know how things will work!
In N scale many steam locos won't handle a dead frog. In HO maybe most will but why restrict what you can run?
use a live frog, do it properly, have plenty of power districts, and enjoy.
If you are signalling the layout and you are an electonics buff like me, why not have a dead section of track just ahead of each facing switch to stop 'em running it? Also stops them pulling up too close and clipping the passing train.