Ther was a tremendously interesting thread yesterday about whether foam on our railroads constituted a 'illegal' saftey situation. Why it was locked so quickly baffles me.
But the larger topic of safety issues on our railroads is, I think a very important one. Something we should take seriously and make sure that we minimize any risks our layouts may pose to our family and of course ourselves.
What are some of the ares where we could or should be paying close attention, as we build and expand our hobby presence in our homes?
Street rodders have voluntary annual automobile inspection programs where their street rods are checked to make sure you are not driving a suicide ride.
Perhaps the NMRA or our local clubs cold implement a program where a team of railroaders visits a fellow's layout and gives things a good once over looking for safety and fire hazards.
Personnally, I've been surprised when my Rod failed inspection only to find out that I had missed some critical item.
Oh, and the program would be entirely voluntary, if you don't want to be inspected, you don't have to be.
Thoughts?
Joe
Interesting thought. In a basement, you do have to deal with building code issues, ranging from keeping 3' clear in front of your electrical panel, and allowing for access to furnaces, water heaters and egress windows. Part of this is to provide easy access for maintaining your household systems, but you also don't want to make a situation that puts part of the layout somewhere it can be genuinely hazardous.
While it would seem the layout itself should be relatively harmless, consider that most of our wood benchwork is not enclosed at the bottom, we often have piles of junk underneath, and a spiderweb of wires hanging there.
You don't have much high voltage going on, but even 12-14v AC (typical constant voltage of a DCC-equipped layout) can generate a lot of heat if a short goes unchecked.
The key to success is to just take your time and plan your layout space so you don't create problems for yourself, and be careful as you build it so that your structure, finishes and systems are properly installed.
If your layout is at a club that opens to the public, you have to pay extra attention to fire and life safety codes, because any space where a group of people can gather can quickly turn into a nightmare if codes aren't followed.
Lee
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
There's a chart somewhere(I don't have the patience to find it)that addresses the issue of amperage and wire gauge to pevent over heating. Most sets come with 20ga. wire to run one loco(sets as in LL or Bachmann and sold in Dept stores). I've seen mention in DCC columns 10-12ga for the power bus and 20 for feeders. Sadly, I feel this is inadaquet for running through foam. I don't know how flamable foam is, but a lash-up of five DCC and sound Locos draws alot more current than one simple DC engine pulling six cars on a loop of EZ-Track.
My biggest safety concern is between the two cats, two toddlers and two adults with two seperate layouts in the same space, confusion might rule the day. Bulletproof track work, access proof displays, secure wiring, proper lighting, and other due diligance are priorities over rushing to get this built.
ps- My mother -in-laws cat just said "thank you" for letting it into the kitchen to get to it's lunch. I'm all weirded out now.
joe-daddy wrote: Ther was a tremendously interesting thread yesterday about whether foam on our railroads constituted a 'illegal' saftey situation. Why it was locked so quickly baffles me. Joe
That seems to happen a lot on this forum. Also threads vanishing into cyberspace. Seems the mods here are very sensitive.
I would like to know what happens with the OP in the locked thread.
Rotor
Jake: How often does the train go by? Elwood: So often you won't even notice ...
- Harry
tstage said that it had been thoroughly talked through, and that we should move on. (not a direct quote, but best that I can remember without going back, and covers the basic sentiment) No serious name calling or other personal attacks, just some less than complimentary thoughts on some public servants in general. I am curious as to why it got locked, the forum members were discussing a topic that they were interested in, in a fairly civil manner. I have seen the Big Boy vs Allegheny debates get much more uncivilised without getting locked. And we all KNOW that the Big Boy was a MUCH SUPERIOR LOCOMOTIVE, to the Allegheny .
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
My wife works in the insurance industry, and safety in the railroad room is naturally, of first importance. Being a professional railroader, safety is job one, so here is how I have handled it, past and present:
1. On my previous layout, which was upstairs in a 24 x 45 foot room with six dormers and two exit doors, I went to the added expense of using lighted exit signs above the doors, and placed escape ladders of the type shown on TV (rope with wood steps) in each dormer. Windows were never blocked with layout stuff. As a former electrician, wiring was to code at all locations. The room was equipped with multi rating fire extinguishers every 15-20 feet, plus one in each of two dispatcher's offices. Phones at the fascia were also available to handle outside calls with the flip of a switch. Electrical subpanels allow power to the railroad room, except emergency lighting) to be shut off at any of four locations within the room itself, as well as outside the room. Now that I have a much smaller room, I use only one subpanel with one shut off.
2. During construction, all guests are required to wear masks when working with the blue or pink foam, and extra ventilation to the outside is required when shaping it with hot foam cutters, as it puts out minute amounts toxic fumes, more irritating than hazardous, but dangerous enough in great quantity.. All construction materials are carefully placed in the garage, not the train room and tripping hazards such as power tools are removed.
3. At the end of work sessions, power tools are unplugged and put away and hand tools are securely stored.
4. All edges on the layout are rounded and during construction, joist tails and such are hand painted flourescent orange so that wandering foreheads and shoulders do not meet up with them.
5. When using cutting tools, soldering tools, or anything else that will throw dusts, chips or metal, safety glasses are worn and in the case of my table saw, ear plugs get used, unless the garage door is open.
6. I never work in an area of the layout which is unreachable outside of 30 inches while standing on the floor. Otherwise, step stools are used....carefully.
7. I do not work under the layout unless I can provide a suitable back support of some sort. Portable work surfaces are kept clean and must be fire-resistant.
8. Operating rules on my layouts also include references to escape routes, what to do in case of fire, and other safety rules directly related to guests' and my family's safety. Regular operators have to sign for special instructions and rulebooks, and the signature indicates familiarity with the rules pertraining to their conduct and safety while in the train room.
9. Research, Research, Research. Reading simple wiring books, looking up MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheets) for materials used during layout construction (like fire ratings for fiberglas insulation, blue or pink styrofoam, etc) on the web and other hour long projects allow armchair modelers to prepare for their actual room prep and layout construction in a way which pays dividends later in the form of peace of mind.
10. I am CPR and AED certifed, as is my wife. That is probably the biggest thing we have done to ensure safety in our home.
Being a railroader and married to my insurance agent makes me more careful than is probably necessary, but an application of any of these items will greatly reduce the risk of injury in the unlikely event of a layout fire, toxic inhalation or other serious problem.
HarryHotspur wrote:The mods are very good at separating the wheat from the chaff.
I'd agree. The "foam" thread started innocently enough, and the OP even said that he didn't want to start an anti-government-regulation rant session. But, by page 2 it had turned into precisely that, and I suppose that caused it to be locked.
The thread brought up some very valid and interesting issues, but it was mostly questions and few answers. Once it drifted off-topic, it didn't belong any more. So, it was locked, but not deleted. If the thread itself had been offensive, it likely would have vanished.
Our Mods are pretty good. I've seen a few threads where they've gone in and surgically removed individual posts, rather than the whole thread, to get rid of offensive material. They left in the "wheat," and removed the "chaff." (Of course, they probably put the chaff in their blenders, died it green, and used it for ground foam. MR guys are like that.)
I suspect that the greatest danger our homes face from our layouts is leaving stuff plugged in. Whether it's a soldering iron that tips over and starts a smoldering fire, or a transformer that shorts out in the middle of the night, it's always best to unplug or shut off stuff you're not using. I use a terminal strip with a single on-off switch to shut off my whole layout. I'm using a soldering gun now, rather than an iron. The gun forces me to hold down the trigger to keep it on, which is a safety feature in itself.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
challenger3980 wrote: tstage said that it had been thoroughly talked through, and that we should move on. (not a direct quote, but best that I can remember without going back, and covers the basic sentiment) No serious name calling or other personal attacks, just some less than complimentary thoughts on some public servants in general. I am curious as to why it got locked, the forum members were discussing a topic that they were interested in, in a fairly civil manner. I have seen the Big Boy vs Allegheny debates get much more uncivilised without getting locked. And we all KNOW that the Big Boy was a MUCH SUPERIOR LOCOMOTIVE, to the Allegheny . Doug
I looked over the OP in that other thread and if fumes are bad, they'd ban the changing of baby diapers without the use of protective breathing apparatus.
MisterBeasley wrote:I suspect that the greatest danger our homes face from our layouts is leaving stuff plugged in. Whether it's a soldering iron that tips over and starts a smoldering fire, or a transformer that shorts out in the middle of the night, it's always best to unplug or shut off stuff you're not using. I use a terminal strip with a single on-off switch to shut off my whole layout. I'm using a soldering gun now, rather than an iron. The gun forces me to hold down the trigger to keep it on, which is a safety feature in itself.
Those are very good ideas.
In regards to the foam topic, I tried an experiment this AM, namely taking a piece of blue foam outside and using a lighter applied a flame to it, it melted, gave off a little black smoke, and if I kept the flame on it, it would sorta burn but it fizzled out without the direct flame, so I consider that while there is a fire risk from it, I think all the other stuff on the layout might represent a higher risk than the foam underlay. Traditional newspaper and cardboard underlay for hydrocal might actually be lot more risky but using common sense in design and planning should make the layout as safe as any other peice of furniture in the house.
On my layout I use a powerstrip with an on/off switch and I'm trying to train myself to make sure is off whenever I leave the garage, I always check the throttle before I leave the layout area to make sure its off, but the ultimate solution is maybe to simply always unplug it at the end of a session.
I'm more worried about all the other crap in the area that the layout has to share with thats beyond my control to toss out, than with anything else.
PS I've seen some road legal retro Rat Racer hot rods that are beyond unsafe! How the hell they got past the DMV is beyond me.
Have fun with your trains
MisterBeasley wrote: I suspect that the greatest danger our homes face from our layouts is leaving stuff plugged in. Whether it's a soldering iron that tips over and starts a smoldering fire, or a transformer that shorts out in the middle of the night, it's always best to unplug or shut off stuff you're not using. I use a terminal strip with a single on-off switch to shut off my whole layout. I'm using a soldering gun now, rather than an iron. The gun forces me to hold down the trigger to keep it on, which is a safety feature in itself.
Agreed. Three switched, surge protected strips for mine. One for the Dept 56 and O scale train display. One for the DCC(when I get there) with it's three boosters. One for the DC loop, switch machines and lighting. No wires hanging down for the kitties to play with.(My last layout's yard switches never did work more than one day in a row)
Having a carpeted floor keeps me from slipping when reaching over the layout. Using the overkill philosophy for the building of the underneath storage makes not only leaning on the layout safer, but I can walk on it(stooped over)with all 200lbs of me. Sturdy=safe. Lighting structures, use no more than 80% of the power supply's rated amperage output. Why? Even tho most can put out 20-100% more than their rating, with the trend of our friends in that populous nation making these things being towards shoddier rather than better, I'd not risk power supplies at their top amp rating.
Wall warts use power when they are plugged in. Save a watt, save some cash. Take the money and donate it to our the "Enlarge Chip's Basement" fund. Have a small fire distinguisher handy in your shop/workbench area. That way you'll know a real fire from a steam engine's smoke. Do your wiring with the power off. Even a low voltage shock can make you flinch, causing you to make a sudden movement often colliding with something not meant to be bumped into. (ie: Head into bottom of layout, hand into ornate structure that took 100 hours to complete, etc) Take precautions to keep cats away from both top and bottom of layout. Don't run trains over open fish tank. No food or drink in train room. If your layout is in the basement adjacent to your pool table, bar and recreation areas, remember, model trains are a serious enterprise. No drinking and train running. Pool cues are not to be used to point out features on the layout.
If I've missed anything, let me know. I'm not perfect as the cuts and scars on my hands will tell you.
Mr. Beasley or anyone -
Can you recommend any particular soldering gun. I tried one years ago but didn't like it because the "tip" was so large.
Get this - Sound-equipped DCC engines are a safety feature. Why? Because they remind you that you've left your layout on. If I'm running trains or working on something, and then I leave the room and get distracted, a noisy Alco RSC-3 or a Hudson idling on a siding will remind me to shut off the layout. With non-sound engines, I lose this protection.
Make sure your significant other knows that sound engines are much safer than non-sound engines, OK?
HarryHotspur wrote: Mr. Beasley or anyone -Can you recommend any particular soldering gun. I tried one years ago but didn't like it because the "tip" was so large.- Harry
I use a Weller. It's better than the one I remember having as a kid, but that was 40 years ago. It's fine for most stuff, but I realize it's really too big for doing circuit-board work.
joe-daddy wrote: Ther was a tremendously interesting thread yesterday about whether foam on our railroads constituted a 'illegal' saftey situation. Why it was locked so quickly baffles me. But the larger topic of safety issues on our railroads is, I think a very important one. Something we should take seriously and make sure that we minimize any risks our layouts may pose to our family and of course ourselves.What are some of the ares where we could or should be paying close attention, as we build and expand our hobby presence in our homes?Street rodders have voluntary annual automobile inspection programs where their street rods are checked to make sure you are not driving a suicide ride.Perhaps the NMRA or our local clubs cold implement a program where a team of railroaders visits a fellow's layout and gives things a good once over looking for safety and fire hazards. Personnally, I've been surprised when my Rod failed inspection only to find out that I had missed some critical item.Oh, and the program would be entirely voluntary, if you don't want to be inspected, you don't have to be. Thoughts?Joe
DO NOT STICK YOUR TOUNGE ON THE RAILS!!!!!!! ESPECIALLY WHEN PLUGGED IN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (for you DC users such as myself) and when the power pack is on full!! The only word of advice from me.... got my little brother with that one once (heh heh)
Modeling the N&W freelanced at the height of their steam era in HO.
Daniel G.
joe-daddy wrote: Perhaps the NMRA or our local clubs cold implement a program where a team of railroaders visits a fellow's layout and gives things a good once over looking for safety and fire hazards.
All items discussed are good safety items and worth a thought. I just realized I need a fire extingisher in the layout room. I have a number of them already in the house but the closest is two rooms away (too far).
Shutting off electrical power is a key issue. The 120 volt source for all my layout wiring goes through a fascia mounted switch with an indicator light. This switch is mounted directly across from the entrance door so it is the first thing you see when you enter the room and the last thing you look at as you leave the room.
The switch also has a protective cover so that it does not accidentially get bumped off (or on).
Don't try this though unless you are very familar and comfortable with household wiring. You don't want to make matters worse. And the switch itself is connected to a wall plug (and a surge protector) so that the whole thing can be unplugged and conforms with electrical code for "temporary wiring."
Be safe,-John
On my layout in a bedroom I had the room lights turned on and off by the existing wall switch. The DCC power supply was on a power strip plugged into a wall outlet. I had no trouble turning the lights off. Many times the DCC would stay on. My solution was to put one of the room lights on the power strip. Having one room light on made it obvious that the DCC was still on.
Problem solved.
Ralph H
While there is certainly some element of risk in a layout, I think it is really, raelly, really, small. I imagine the rats nest of wires around are computers is probably a much greater risk in almost all of our houses. I can imagine how a layout could cause a fire (though a lot of things would have to go wrong), but I've never heard of it. Of course that doesn't mean it hasn't happened.
I think we are a lot more likely to be hurt doing all of the things we do in building the layout. Between the power tools, hobby knive, paint fumes, and soldering irons, I expect almost every one of us has been injured to some degree! If we want to look a safety, that would be a much better area to address in my mind. The foam thing is a total read herring, in my mind. A mattress is way more dangerous!
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
Vail and Southwestern RR wrote:SNIPI think we are a lot more likely to be hurt doing all of the things we do in building the layout. Between the power tools, hobby knive, paint fumes, and soldering irons, I expect almost every one of us has been injured to some degree! If we want to look a safety, that would be a much better area to address in my mind. The foam thing is a total read herring, in my mind. A mattress is way more dangerous!
SNIP
Jeff,
The issue is much bigger than foam, which is simply fuel. Like you said in your post, there are lots of opportunities for danger in the train room. The inspection thoughs have other advantages as well, for example, an inspection form outlining the need for a paint booth would be all the justification my executive spouse would need to release the funding. And lack of adequate isle widths just might facilitate access to that guest bedroom we never really use.
Until today, I've been thinking about having some cloth under layout skirting made. I am using 6 mil polly film at the moment. I've now justified in my mind that the film must go and the thought of skirting is no longer an option.
Disaster is its own master. We cannot ignore the overall risk to our family if we have cut corners, and ignored the potential of fire. Our building codes, as PITA as they have been is the single largest factor in reducing the risks of fire athome. Those codes are nearly worthless without the requirement of inspections.
In our desire to create a railroad empire, a healthy respect and appreciation for our health and safety are warranted.
Certainly on my
HEdward wrote:There's a chart somewhere(I don't have the patience to find it)that addresses the issue of amperage and wire gauge to pevent over heating. Most sets come with 20ga. wire to run one loco(sets as in LL or Bachmann and sold in Dept stores). I've seen mention in DCC columns 10-12ga for the power bus and 20 for feeders. Sadly, I feel this is inadaquet for running through foam. I don't know how flamable foam is, but a lash-up of five DCC and sound Locos draws alot more current than one simple DC engine pulling six cars on a loop of EZ-Track. My biggest safety concern is between the two cats, two toddlers and two adults with two seperate layouts in the same space, confusion might rule the day. Bulletproof track work, access proof displays, secure wiring, proper lighting, and other due diligance are priorities over rushing to get this built.ps- My mother -in-laws cat just said "thank you" for letting it into the kitchen to get to it's lunch. I'm all weirded out now.
It's not so much wire gauge as it is the insulation on that wire that determines how much of an overehating problem you'll have on that wire. Some insulations have a max temp of 105 C, and that's to how hot the wire will get before it starts to soften enough to start to melt. And that's just for a single wire in free space. Add more wires to a bundle and things get nasty. You'll end up being able to draw less current through a bundle of wires than a single wire.
That being said, in your example, assuming a current draw of 1 amp for each sound equipped loco for a 5 amp total, 20 gauge wire, for as short of a run as you'll have to a feeder, is not a problem.
Don't feel weirded out by the cat saying thank you. I've had cats for the last 25+ years and that's nothing. Start to worry when they figure out how to open the back door of the kitchen to the outside (deadbolt and then door knob). I had one cat that figured that out by watching us. Thankfully the locks were not easy to turn. He did figure out how to turn on my wife's boombox.
de N2MPU Jack
Proud NRA Life Member and supporter of the 2nd. Amendment
God, guns, and rock and roll!
Modeling the NYC/NYNH&H in HO and CPRail/D&H in N
joe-daddy wrote:What might a model railroad safety inspection look like? No exposed, dangling wiring, all outlets tested for proper polarity, escape access from basement rooms, certified fire extinguisher easily within reach, working smoke alarms, adequate lighting, electronic equipment properly ventilated etc.Certainly there would be a published and agreed to list of what would be inspected and things would be objective, meaning you either have the correct polarity on your 110 volt (220 for our International brothers) wiring or you don't. Keep the judgement out of it. Maybe we would decide that a master on/off switch is a requirement. But always, the notion is voluntary, always by invitation. I agree with Midnight Railroader, this has nothing to do with the government, this has to do with us wanting to be responsible hobbiests to ourselves, family and our hobby in general. I'd like to see the NMRA take this underadvisement and see what can happen. That supposes they have not already looked into it. After all they some of the sharper knives in the drawer a. Just writing and thinking about this, I've added three major items to my train room todo list, all in the name of safety. Just my 2 cents
What might a model railroad safety inspection look like? No exposed, dangling wiring, all outlets tested for proper polarity, escape access from basement rooms, certified fire extinguisher easily within reach, working smoke alarms, adequate lighting, electronic equipment properly ventilated etc.
Certainly there would be a published and agreed to list of what would be inspected and things would be objective, meaning you either have the correct polarity on your 110 volt (220 for our International brothers) wiring or you don't. Keep the judgement out of it. Maybe we would decide that a master on/off switch is a requirement.
But always, the notion is voluntary, always by invitation. I agree with Midnight Railroader, this has nothing to do with the government, this has to do with us wanting to be responsible hobbiests to ourselves, family and our hobby in general.
I'd like to see the NMRA take this underadvisement and see what can happen. That supposes they have not already looked into it. After all they some of the sharper knives in the drawer a.
Just writing and thinking about this, I've added three major items to my train room todo list, all in the name of safety.
Just my 2 cents
And just how long do you think a 'voluntary' inspection system would stay 'voluntary' once the government gets wind of it? Not for long. Especially with the things you're talking about. And what about liability? If your inspection says things are okay and something nasty happens, a smart lawyer could sue the pants off of you. No thanks. I'm all for safety, but I don't need someone to nanny-state me into it. We're all big boys and girls here.
Hi!
The other day I was using a new blade in the xacto knife, and carelessly punctured my finger. I am not a newbie, having been building models since the mid '50s, so it just shows that one can never be too careful. The finger will survive, but it got me to thinking...... what if I dropped it on my foot????
I love model railroading, but it does have its dangers - paint/glue fumes, shattered discs and rotary tools, sharp knives, and electrical situations. Of course my biggest concern is a fire (been thru one at age 13), and I will check and recheck and often check again that all the power is off before I leave the layout and/or hobby room.
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
jackn2mpu wrote:And just how long do you think a 'voluntary' inspection system would stay 'voluntary' once the government gets wind of it? Not for long. Especially with the things you're talking about. And what about liability? If your inspection says things are okay and something nasty happens, a smart lawyer could sue the pants off of you. No thanks. I'm all for safety, but I don't need someone to nanny-state me into it. We're all big boys and girls here.
Jack,
I can see your point; here is a parallel perspective.
In the case of the street rodders, they have become so well known and respected by law enforcement and state legislative bodies that they are considered one group so responsible for themselves they leave them alone. Perhaps it is one reason why street rodders are able to get their own license tags, with heavily reduced fees and in heavy smog inspection locales like Colorado and CA, those states exempt Street Rods from the inspections.
Another way of putting it: when a hobby is so concerned about their own safety and well being of others, the law makers tend to leave them alone. As I said, a well thought out and consientiously promoted program could serve the needs of the hobby in several ways beyond the personal safety aspects. Those being positive community image and awareness, both items that are useful in promoting acceptance, growth and and well being of our hobby.
Just my and I do appreciate the dialog!
Going to the UP Steam shops this moring so I am pumped about that!
Warmest regards to all
Instead of worrying about who will inspect what, why don't we get proactive and make up our own checklist for layout inspection? That way, I can inspect mine, you can inspect yours and Bigbucks von Filthyrich can contract with some professional layout inspector to inspect his...
So, what do we need to check? Remember, this is for safety, not for aesthetics or, 'good model railroading practice.' Here are my first, off-the-top-of-the-head, thoughts:
I'm sure that others can add to this list (I know I can, but mine are layout-specific to me.) Feel free to do so.
Sources for additional data include, but are not limited to, the local codes authority, published safety bulletins and advice from properly-credentialed experts.
Oh, for those California residents present, don't forget the mandatory sign on the layout room door:
Products in use in this space are known to the State of California to cause cancer in laboratory animals.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
The biggest safety facture is COMMON SENSE.All the safety tips and safety devices in the world means zip without using your common sense.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
vsmith, that is the problem with foam. The black smoke and fumes are toxic. There was a type of foam for furniture that was banned (in Canada at least) because it burned and killed people. The smoke from foam insulation degrading in heat or direct flame contact is a hazzard. You cannot have uncovered foam insulation in a home without drywall covering it and yet we MRRs use it on our layouts like that. Me too by the way. I am a retired Fire Fighter ( Captain ) and have dealt with this stuff over the years.
Dave