I am in the process of building an N scale layout based in the 1880's and would like some info on the type of trains that were on the rails back then. I doubt that any of you know first hand but may know more than me. I have seen in cowboy movies where a cowboy rides the train and gets off the train and gets his horse. I am figuring the loco and tender, a mail car amd maybe a boxcar or two, then 3 or 4 passenger cars and a stock car and a caboose. How close am I?
I would like to know what locos were in use in 1880 as well as what type of freight cars were being used. I know these are going to be difficult to find and would like to start trying to to locate some of them pretty soon so any info you could share with me would be helpful. I did a Google search on 1880's trains and didn't come up with much. Thanks. Mike
If you are modeling the 1880's you need a copy of John White's The American Railroad Freight Car. He explains all about operating a railroad in the wooden car era.
Harold
As for 1880's engines pretty much anything that has a wooden cab and no trailing wheel is appropriate.
4-4-0 were by far the most common, but 2-6-0, 2-8-0, were by then common on freight service, 4-6-0 were becoming the preferred express passenger engines, even the 4-8-0 Mastadon wasn't uncommon in frieght service, the Southern Pacific even had a monsterous 4-10-0 on helper service in the 1880's.
Trailing wheels were developed in the late 1890's as locomotive technology increased boiler/grate sizes over the rear of the drivers and didnt become commonplace till after the turn of the century with the 4-4-2 Atlantic and the 4-6-2 Pacifics leading the development, the same is true for all steel cabs, which were not common till the 1900's-10's.
If its a western/mid-western layout, then mixed local trains were fairly common, engine a couple passenger cars and then a few freight cars and maybe a caboose or hack (a converted boxcar with windows/no cupola) bringing up the rear.
Have fun with your trains
lvanhen wrote:to a cowboy - it would cost him half a month's wages to ride 50-100 miles!! My
WOW! Just like todays gas prices! Guess it was The Big OAT companies back then.(some things never change.)
lvanhen wrote:Horse travel was only somewhat common in the "wild west", and it was more common for the horses to belong to the sherrif or the US Cavalry than to a cowboy - it would cost him half a month's wages to ride 50-100 miles!! My
I'm still trying to work this one out. Where does the expense come in? Ah, toll booths.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
SpaceMouse wrote: lvanhen wrote:Horse travel was only somewhat common in the "wild west", and it was more common for the horses to belong to the sherrif or the US Cavalry than to a cowboy - it would cost him half a month's wages to ride 50-100 miles!! My I'm still trying to work this one out. Where does the expense come in? Ah, toll booths.
"Someones gonna havta go back and getta mess'of dimes!"
Just like my gas guzzler I have now.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
The best search terms to plug in, for 1880s train supplies are "Old Time", and "OT". That won't hit every possibility, but it will hit more than most others.
Look at Roundhouse/MDC and IHC for RTR locos and rolling stock, also Spectrum's ten wheeler may serve as a base for modification. Durango Press, Grandtline and Campbell's will lead to accessories and structures, Labelle for rolling stock, Musket Miniatures for figures and accessories, and Jay's Trains, online, to order hard to find or out of stock items.
For hard data from the time period, free, www.narrowgauge.org will take you at least a week to tour respectibly, and will provide months of additional links.
Basically they were the same type of trains they have now (except for intermodal) but shorter with smaller cars and engines. Don't use movies as a reference, I can pretty much guarantee the trains depicted there are NOT accurate and are purely a invention for the story.
You had an engine, then whatever cars that train carried. If it was a freight train, then you had boxcars, reefers, tank cars, stockcars, gons, hoppers and flat cars in the 28 to 36 ft range, but there were 40, 50 even 60 ft cars. There wre solid trains of one car type (actually commodity) such as coal trains or grain trains or stock trains. Coal was mostly handled in gondolas or wooden hoppers. There were virtually no steel cars, all wood. Freight trains were in the 30-50 car range, depending on how big an engine they had, in hilly/mountainous rea they would drop down to 20-40 cars. Freight trains had 4-4-0, 4-6-0, 4-8-0, 2-6-0, 2-6-2 or 2-8-0 engines. Switchers were mostly 0-4-0 or 0-6-0's.
A through passenger train would have wooden passenger cars in the 70-80 ft size, a local would have cars more in the 40-60 ft range. Passenger trains generally had 4-4-0 or 4-6-0 engines.
The 4-4-0 was the same as a GP-7 in the 50's or a GP-38-2 today. They were used for everything.
The best reference in White's history of the American Freight Car. It has more information than you could hope for. They are available at places like Amazon and occaisionally on e-bay.
Dave H.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
dehusman wrote:If it was a freight train, then you had boxcars, reefers, tank cars, stockcars, gons, hoppers and flat cars in the 28 to 36 ft range, but there were 40, 50 even 60 ft cars. Dave H.
If it was a freight train, then you had boxcars, reefers, tank cars, stockcars, gons, hoppers and flat cars in the 28 to 36 ft range, but there were 40, 50 even 60 ft cars.
i'm curious .. what cars would have been 60' ? other than passenger cars of course
ernie
in the 1880s there were very few 60' freight cars, generally they were used for shipping wagons, carriages and furniture. most freight cars in the early 1880s were 30-34 feet in length, although there were still many 4 wheel freightr cars in service. 36 foot cars began to show up in the 1890s. very few freight cars had air brakes. most had link and pin couplers. most freight cars were either box or flat. although refrigerator cars were in use as early as 1851 (they were called "butter cars" then) they were rarely used in interchange service. most were rebuilt from obsolete boxcars. purpose built stock cars did not appear until the 1890s, before that old obsolete boxcars with ventilation holes cut in the roof were used. cabooses usually were short 4 wheelcars. most locomotives were 4-4-0s (and usually woodburners), there were some 2-6-0s and 4-6-0s. curiously RRs that had 2-6-0s generally did not have 4-6-0s. the first 2-8-0s were built in 1866, but outside of eastern coal roads the consolidation type was not seen in significant numbers until after 1900. trains were short. 12 cars was considered a long train, although trains of 30 cars were not uncommon. double heading was common. i would suggest looking at period photos from the area you are modeling to see what traffic looked for in the period you are modeling.
check out
http://forums.railfan.net/forums.cgi?board=SteamGeneral;action=display;num=1104357470
thread gives who what where whens & dates for railroading
toot toot wrote: most freight cars were either box or flat.
Gotta take exception here. The largest single commodity moved by rail, tonnage wise, was coal. The vast majority of it was shipped in 2 axle coal jennies, 4 axle wood truss hoppers and gondolas (hopper bottom, drop bottom or solid bottom). They were a huge component of eastern railroads. The PRR had 10's of thousands of class 30 ft GD hopper bottom gons for hauling coal, rock etc.
Boxcars were probably the majority of the cars, but gons would be a close second. then probably stock, then reefers, then flats and lastly tank cars.
The problem is that the model manufacturers have abandoned (if they ever supported) the pre-1910 eras. There has never been a mass produced HO wood hopper car, coal jenny or even a typical gon or hopper bottom gon. Even thought they compromised 25-30% of all the cars of eastern roads.
although refrigerator cars were in use as early as 1851 (they were called "butter cars" then) they were rarely used in interchange service. most were rebuilt from obsolete boxcars.
Not by the 1880's, they were specially built cars with distinctively different designs. the doors were much narrower and much lower, many cars had ice bunkers under the roof line, there were dozens of varieties of ice hatch sizes and arrangements.
purpose built stock cars did not appear until the 1890s,
Once again, I have take exception here since White's book has pictures and diagrams of purpose built stock cars from the 1870's and I have books documenting stockcars built for the P&R back to the 1850's and 1860's.
trains were short. 12 cars was considered a long train.
According to White (again) 40 car trains were common in the 1870's. There are example given of roads with common train sizes of 30 cars in the 1850's. He describes how the Erie went from 22 car trains to 38 car trains when they acquired consolidations in the mid 1870's.
The EarlyRail Yahoo group is devoted to pre-WW1 modeling. It is also another excellent resource.
in my post i was referring to what was common in the 1880s. according to White (A History of the American Locomotive) the typical locomotive in 1880 was a 4-4-0 weighing about 30 tons. Sure the PRR was doubleheading 1000 ton burden trains of about 90 cars downhill to tidewater in 1889 using class "O" 2-8-0s (they were later reclassified as class "H") but such locomotives were rarely seen outside of the coal hauling roads of the east prior to 1900.
A typical 4-4-0 locomotive of 30 tons (with 20 tons on the drivers) would produce 10,000 lbs TE and could pull a train of 312 tons against a maximum 1% grade. Assuming cars of 20 ton capacity with a car weight of 5 tons that works out to 12 loaded cars before helpers were needed.
Likewise hopper cars were uncommon, in fact William Voss, master car builder of the Burlington Cedar Rapids & Northern writing in National Car and Locomtive Builder (1888) reports that the majority of coal shipped in the US was transported in gondolas (without hopper bottoms) only in the south and east were hopper bottom cars common. He further stresses that Gondolas (at that time) were a peculiar form of platform (his term) [flatcar]
Yes purpose built Stock cars were around in the 1880s, I too have plans for them as early as 1862. However they do not appear to be common. Voss describes purpose built stock cars as a new concept that was catching on. He gives a technical description of the revolutionary differences between the new stock cars and those of the 1870s, starting with the fundimental way the framework attaches to the platform. Earlier stock cars were built with stakes in pockets supporting the sides.
Refeigerator cars, as stated they first showed up in the 1850s and yes i have loads of plans for them. But were they typical, no, other than a few lines running out of Chicago, refrigerators were rare and when you did see them, they appear to be converted boxcars, private owners or property of one of the "Fast Freight" lines.
Tank cars were so rare that Voss doesn't even mention them. Outside of Pennsylvania oil country you hardly find them at all in the 1880s.
One source to get would be the Clover House decal / dry transfer catalogue. They specialize in 19th c. and early 20th c. lettering sets and are good about noting the exact car type and era for that lettering set (i.e. "34' boxcar c.1890").
One thing to keep in mind is that artificial paint coloring was created in 1859. Before that, the color of the paint was connected to how rare the natural material was that was used in making it. Freight car red was dirt cheap because it was made from...well, dirt (or clay) that had red iron oxides in it. It made a long lasting tough paint, which is why boxcars and barns etc. came to be painted that shade of red. Purple was made from some sea animals ink or something, so was very rare and expensive - only royalty could afford it basically. When artificial colors came in, colors became more diverse and cheaper, so people went nuts in the later Victorian era with color. Painting a house 4-5-6 different colors wasn't unusual, so our view of the old west era as being filled with dull lifeless buildings really wasn't true.
Trains became more colorful too. Before "Pullman Green" became standard later in the century, many passenger cars were painted straw yellow or dark yellow (like "English Stagecoach yellow" of the CNW) or even white. (Several railroads had "White Mail" trains made up of all white or cream passenger cars.) Many boxcars were painted yellow, but dark red continued to be very common too.
Cars were much smaller than we'd consider normal today. Civil War era 24'-28' boxcars would still be around, with a 6'-7' interior, although 34' and 36' with an 8' interior would be becoming more common. Tank cars might be just that - a flat car with a couple of circular tanks laid flat - like two swimming pools on a flatcar. Passenger cars would be in the 50'-60' range, although 80' ones may have started to appear - they became common in the 1890's. Except maybe for hopper cars, all cars (freight and passenger) would be wood, with truss rods and arch bar trucks on the freight cars. Even iron ore cars were made of oak back when the Mesabi Range in MN was first being mined in the 1880's-90's.
The fancy painted / balloon stack engines were on their way out. I was looking at a book last night on the Milwaukee Road and noticed that after 1885 you didn't see balloon stacks anymore. (They were generally used on woodburners; the larger stack which trapped wood sparks better wasn't needed on coalburners so straight "shotgun" stacks became common.)
Although keeping a horse fed, watered and cared for was an expensive proposition, the original cost was the big problem. As someone one said, in the old west a good used horse would cost a lot more than a good used horse would today!! Generally cowboys owned their own saddles, and the rancher they worked for provided the horses.
Transporting a horse by rail would be pretty expensive. If you were moving a long distance and owned a horse you'd probably sell your horse, take the train to the new city, and buy a new horse at your new home. There were cars by then that were built for horses (often looking similar to baggage cars) but they were usually used for race horces, not working horses. About the only time working horses were transported by rail in a mixed train would be in the logging business. Here in the Great Lakes area logging took place in the winter (when the marshy areas where the timber was located was frozen over, and the bugs weren't flying around) so many farmers worked as loggers in the winter. If they took their work horses with them (to use to drag logs out of the forest) they could get hired as teamsters rather than general laborers, at much more pay. So trains taking loggers to the logging camps often had a stock car or two for their horses.
toot toot wrote: A typical 4-4-0 locomotive of 30 tons (with 20 tons on the drivers) would produce 10,000 lbs TE and could pull a train of 312 tons against a maximum 1% grade. Assuming cars of 20 ton capacity with a car weight of 5 tons that works out to 12 loaded cars before helpers were needed.
Assuming you were on a grade. A quick page through White showed 4 or 5 pictures of trains with c. 1880's 4-4-0's where you you can count more than twelve cars in the picture and there were numerous references to trains of over 30 cars. I think that saying the max train size is 12 cars is understating it a bit. Probably on a line with significant grades it wouldn't be far off. In reality it doesn't make any difference since a model 4-4-0 isn't going to pull more than 12 cars on the level, let alone on a grade, so from a modeling perspective the point is moot.
Likewise hopper cars were uncommon, in fact William Voss, master car builder of the Burlington Cedar Rapids & Northern writing in National Car and Locomtive Builder (1888) reports that the majority of coal shipped in the US was transported in gondolas (without hopper bottoms) only in the south and east were hopper bottom cars common.
Hopper bottom gons were less common before the 1880's and they probably were less common even after that west of Indiana. I would say though that the vast majority of coal was mined in the south and east, so the cars used to haul coal in those areas would be the predominate types of coal cars. The drop bottom gon was very popular. If you look at the big coal roads of the day north of the Mason Dixon line (P&R, PRR, B&O, LV, LNE) they used hopers (wood truss or steel pot) or two axle coal jennies. White has plans for various road's 2 axle coal jennies on pages 304-309. It appears that in the south (N&W, L&N), drop bottom gons seemed to be more common.
If the original poster is modeling west of the Mississippi then he wouldn't be hauling much coal anyway (as compared to an eastern road). I would still think that gons would be the second most common car since they could be loaded with virtually any bulk commodity, lumber or other building material.
Yes purpose built Stock cars were around in the 1880s, I too have plans for them as early as 1862. However they do not appear to be common.
They were never really "common" ever. I doubt that stock cars ever made up more than a couple percent of the overall railroad fleet at any given time, from the 1830's until today.
I believe that people ate meat, dairy and produce at locations other than Chicago.
Thansk all for all the good info, I do appriciate it. I an not 100% going to model in exactly 1880 but around that time and will model in and around the Central US , Kansas plains and Indian Territory if I can.
Does anyone know a good place or manufacture to start looking for wooden rail cars? I am also thinking of putting a cattle drive on a spot of the layout, I thought that would look neat. Thanks again, Mike
In Kansas you would see mostly boxcars as they were used for general commodities and grain, which would be a big deal in Kansas. Stock cars would also be big in Kansas as cattle shipments to KC, Omaha and Chicago. What coal was burned would come in gons, either drop or solid bottom from the IC/LN/MP/CBQ via St Louis most likely. Lumber in flats, gons and boxcars from Minnesota, Michigan and Iowa would also be a big commodity. Hay would also be a big commodity.
I think Kadee has some older cars, otherwise it would be very easy to scratch boxcars since they are basically a box with a roof. Evergreen made N scale car siding. It would also be easy to cast your own cars out of resin since they would be samll and relatively simple.
Also check out Art Griffin decals, he has thousands of them from the 1880's to 1920's.
There is a great book on railroads in Minneapolis, while not Kansas, it has lots of shots of early cars and trains, plus pictures of elevators and flour mills that might be useful.
dehusman wrote: There is a great book on railroads in Minneapolis, while not Kansas, it has lots of shots of early cars and trains, plus pictures of elevators and flour mills that might be useful.Dave H.
Don Hofsommer's Minneapolis and the Age of Railways: http://www.amazon.com/Minneapolis-Age-Railways-Don-Hofsommer/dp/0816645019
Early railroading is tough to do; there's not a lot of manufacturer support. Good Luck!
Gary
This Texas & Pacific Steam Roster gives build dates and manufacturers for the T&P in that era. Almost all were 4-4-0's and a few 0-6-0 switchers for that railroad in the 1880's. There are a few pictures of some of the old stuff to be found on that site.
I found The Great Locomotive Chase to be a very good site to learn about late 19th Century railroading (not to mention a fascinating true story). If you have never seen Buster Keaton's 1927 slap-stick silent film, "The General," you are in for a treat. It tops most lists of "greatest all time movies" and for good reason.
The book Short Lines: Stories from the Golden Age of Railroad Fiction is an excellent collection for learning of early railroading. I love that book!
Bachmann has at least a couple of N-Scale locomotives from that era.
Please post what you find out from your own research.
Crews
garya wrote:Early railroading is tough to do; there's not a lot of manufacturer support. Good Luck!
The major model manufacturers think railroads were invented just before the Great Depression.
In HO MDC/Roundhouse has brought out 1 new engine and updated several cars and locomotives, but hasn't put out a new car style car in over 30 years (and all the recent redetailing date the cars to post 1910 or even post 1915 or so). Bowser has introduced a couple 1920's era steel cars that can be backdated to 1900-1910 era steel cars. The rest have never put out a wood underframe car. Ever.
I don't expect a wave of new models, but may one semi-accurate car every decade or two might be nice.
2-8-8-0 wrote:Make sure and have the James-Younger gang hangin' around, looking sneaky!
Not in the 1880's, most of them were dead or in prison by the 1880's. Cole Younger was in Stillwater (MN) state prison from roughly 1876-1901 IIRC after the Northfield MN attempted bank robbery was crushed. Still there were other train robbers around.
There's a company that models in RMC or MR that makes Civil War era freight cars, I don't remember the name or anything but might be worth looking into.
That era and locale would be good to represent the great cattle drives. Cattle were driven from Texas to the nearest railroad connections in Kansas City, Dodge City, etc. to be sold and shipped east to packing plants (Chicago mainly).
In the 1880s the population was much more rural than it is today, most North Americans ate locally grown meat, dairy and produce.
In 1880 the national freight car fleet was as follows: 194,500 boxcars; 70,500 flat cars; 28,600 stock cars of all kinds; 183,500 coal cars of all kinds; 3,000 tank cars of all kinds; 300* refrigerator cars; Cabooses, construction & work cars not reported. (*Railroad owned [Poors] ) There were an additional 54,000 freight cars owned by Fast Freight lines and shippers. (Poor's)
Shippers and Fast Freight lines owned 1500 refrigerator cars in 1885. (Poor's) Of those cars 1200 were owned by just 5 companies Hammond, Swift, Dodd, Cudahy and Armour. In 1885 Hammond had the largest fleet (600). By 1900 Armour had the most (12,000) (Poor's). These 5 companies operated principly out of Chicago and Kansas City. Their products went overwhelmingly to the port cities of Boston and New York for export. (Poor's) Demand for refigerator service west out of Chicago was largely unheeded until the Missouri Pacific and Wabash formed their own Fast Freight Company to provide the service. (White ARFC)
You can find a summary of this on pgs 129-130 of White's American Railroad Freight Car.
Other notes: the life span of freight cars of the 1880s was about 16 years (White ARFC) so very few Civil War era cars would still be in revenue service in the 1880s. Cars were being built at a rate exceeding the replacement rate.
In 1890 the national fleet looked like this 408,900 boxcars; 131,600 flat cars; 57,300 stock cars; 354,100 coal cars; 2000 tank; 8500 refrigerators (ICC) and in 1900 it looked like this 657,000 boxcars; 134500 flat cars; 55,100 stock cars; 454,500 coal; 2800 tank; 14,500 refrigerator. (again these do not include those cars owned by fast freight lines or shippers)
I stand corrected. I model the 1900-1905 era and I was used to more reefers.
it took me a while to find this, cuz i kept looking in the wrong places but...
Trainloads for selected US Railroads (average tonnage CARRIED by trains on a few selected railroads) in 1883.
Boston & Albany 103
Chicago & Alton 188
Chicago & Northwestern 121
Cleveland Columbus Cincinatti & Indianapolis 218
Illinois Central 100
New York Central 200
average of all US railroads 129 tons
(sorry no listing in the table for Pennsylvania or Southern Pacific)
what does this mean?
with the following assumptions 1) freight cars of the 1880s could carry about 20 tons, and 2) there are two loaded cars for every empty car in the train (and that is a big assumption)
so the average US Railroad train would have had 7 loaded cars and 3 empty cars -10 cars,
On the Illinois Central it would have been 5 loads, 3 empties - 8 cars
while on the CCC&I it would read 11 loads 6 empties - 17 cars
While the New York Central and Pennsylvania were boasting about their 1000 ton burden / 50 car trains, there must have been more short trains than long ones.
In terms of models
i don't think there are many model locos on the market that can pull that many cars
so this is really nothing but a fun exercise in research...
on my HO layout set in 1890s New England i run 4-10 car trains mostly with 4-4-0s and 2-6-0s, my biggest power is an H3 2-8-0.
the original sources quoted by White in American Railroad Freight Car pg 70