how accurate do you think reviews in Model Railroader Magazine are?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by NightCrawler
......so, for now, i will rely on online forums like the ones at Atlas for my unbiased product reviews.

No thanks...as Larry mentions, an Atlas review is negative bias as its' worst.[:(] Enough acid-laced vitriol to take the chrome off a trailer hitch.[:0]

Getting a product reviewed on the Atlas forum, is like getting a new haircut and suit of clothes, and asking Don Rickles for his "comments".[xx(][V]

regards,
Mike

[Anonymous]

i have the feeling that many of the reviews are biased. when a major advertiser gets a product reviewed, they point out all of the positives and give maybe one sentence to point out the negatives. then when a product by, lets say LBF, gets reviewed, the article is mostly negative.

i have compaired the MR reviews with reviews from many different modelers on many different online forums, and for some reason, the negative aspects of many models are never pointed out. especially on models made by manufacturers that spend large ammounts of money on advertisintg in MR.

so, for now, i will rely on online forums like the ones at Atlas for my unbiased product reviews.

[BRAKIE]

I think MR does a fairly good job overall.I would not want to See MR rip a model apart if there is missing minor details that can be added by using after market detail parts.If I want to see every new locomotive ripped apart I will wait on 2 or 3 of the guys on the Atlas forum to do that since nothing seems to please them regardless of brand name...

[DSchmitt]

Reviews are very subjective and depend on the knowledge, experence and sometimes skill of the reviewer.

A review in a Military protype and modeling magazie (no longer published) said a model of a German staff car was completely inaccurate. I have a book with pictures of the particular car which the model depicted. It was one of a kind and the model was very accurate.

MR once gave a bad review to a steam loco kit. RMC gave it a good review. The difference was the experence and skill oy the reviewer. I found both reviews useful.

A product which one person considers junk might be considered a treasure by another.

Perceptions change with time. Many products which got good reviews a few years ago, would not be considered as good today.

I

[Anonymous]

Accurate reviews are an elusive quest, at best. Maybe a moving target ?

The MRR press will always be as it is now, "fairly gentle", and that's to be expected.

Hobby shops...some will be open and upfront, others not so much.

Forums and Groups ? You can get some highly objective reviews, but you can also get some of the most biased commentary in the hobby.
I have personally seen reviews that are exceptionally scathing for a product I had previously purchased, and found to be highly satisfactory.

If we want our own "Ralph Nader" to the hobby, there would be a cost to that....and as a group, we seem to have difficulty with cost issues, by and large.
regards;
Mike.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by C424

QUOTE:

One has to be careful what they write today as the lible is a costly venture.

You can't libel or slander a product, only a person. I can say a product is lousy all I want and in just about any venue and I won't face the possibility of losing a libel or slander suit.

C424

Though this may be true you can't tell me in todays legal climate that you won't be held accountable for things you've written or said, which can't be substantiated, and impacts on an individual's or company's reputation or ability to sell a product. I realize this is an extreme case scenario but.......

I won't say anymore in fear of legal persecution!

[Anonymous]

Used to be a definate yes. Check out the stove polish vs. Floquil flap in 1955 with John Page as aditor. Now, I think a bad rview just doesn't get published. Look at the number of products relaesed vs. the number of reviews. Lots easier to just print reviews of good products and ignore those with problems.

QUOTE: Originally posted by MAbruce

Do you really think they would bite the hand that feeds them?

[Anonymous]

I agree with what seems to be a common thread running though this discussion. If a prodect is really bad, like the Walther's plastic turntable of a few years ago, which was a truly awful kit, MR just doesn't revue it.

However, I don't think that the policy of not reviewing a bad product for fear of antagonising one of their best, or any advertiser, does justice to their readers. But then again, who comes first, readers, or advertisers?

[mikebonellisr]

I think the reviews are a good place to start,but i listen more to you guys for a more honest opinion. You have all been a great help.

[Anonymous]

I agree with Dschmitt. They only choose the models that got a good review. I think MR should review more models, publish good and bad reviews, and rate the models on scale of some sort. The price of the model should not influence the review, it's either a good model or it's not. Perhaps they could judge the model as if it was in a NMRA contest and then print the results. That would give readers an unbiased standard to base a decision on.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE:

One has to be careful what they write today as the lible is a costly venture.

You can't libel or slander a product, only a person. I can say a product is lousy all I want and in just about any venue and I won't face the possibility of losing a libel or slander suit.

C424

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: I want MR to give a fair and balanced (ala FOX News) opinion

I really hope that was sarcasm.

[Big_Boy_4005]

That sounds like the difference between Lionel and Marx here.[:D]

[lupo]

the concept of follow ups on reviews as fergus suggested could be interesting, like a Dutch computermagazine wich decided to look at the CDR's they tested 2 years ago again, to discover that the data on some brands was corrupted while in storage for 2 years.
Maybe buy some old popular locs on e-bay and look what time and usage does to them. you can even look at their value: in Europe old worn Marklin stuff sells at huge sums of cash, and other brands get tossed in boxes at swap meets and sells by the pound.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Thanks, but I think I'm getting too old for them anyway.[(-D][;)][:D]

[lupo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005


I quietly made 500 this morning

If this was on the DOS topic I would treat you to a trainload of animated gif's and other goodies, but I told myself to behave outside DOS, so . . . . .

[Big_Boy_4005]

Lupo, this has been a fantastic topic! I understand how you might feel a little guilty or uncomfortable making comments against the forum's sponsor, but I think that they "can handle it". [;)]

They have been in business for 75 years, and I'm sure that they've heard worse. You never know, this topic could prompt some discussion during a staff meeting, I suspect that someone from the head office is following this.

It has been the general consensus of those that have spoken here, that the material published has been polite and mild, but that they feel that potentially negative comments have been withheld. I sense a potential conflict of interest is involved. The ultimate solution may be to stop doing reviews, or at least change what they call this material.

On the subject of the DOS thread, I agree, it has become posting for posting's sake, as is clearly evidenced by young Dougal's post count. Yesterday morning I plowed through all of the pages, when the count stood at 322. At that time Dougal had 55 posts to the thread, you were second with 28, Emeraldisle 27, Fergie 25, and me 24. What has happened is CP5170, the person who started the topic, and only posted to it that one time, has allowed us to illustrate his point. Were we baited into a trap?

Maybe it has become the digital LOBBY of this forum, where members check in, make jokes and chat in non-real-time. Maybe we need a live chat room, as an outlet to put some value back into the stars. It would stop simple number posting, which was one of my rants along the way.

I quietly made 500 this morning

[Anonymous]

I've bought several products that have been reviewed by MR. Unlike Car and consumer reports I suspect MR gets the product and runs it for a few hour, does the comparitive researche hauls it apart looks under the hood and writes the report. What the review does not do and probably can't do is Run the product into the ground to see what kind of endurance it will have. This would be the only shorcoming I would say I find with their reviews. We Don't know how long it will run before the wheels fall off. Follow ups would be an interesting aspect to the process, which would encourage some manufacturers to implement improvements or rectify shortfalls.

One has to be careful what they write today as the lible is a costly venture.

[lupo]

BigBoy 4005,
Do you know other good fora like this where to find opinions on new products and manufacturers?

I think following the posts about biased info from magazines and "Never bite the hand that feeds you" ( I deleted that part in my initial topic- I would not insult MR magazine because I consider myself a GUEST on their forum)
that if most magazines do not want offend their advertisers by a bad review, they rather not print that review at all so that could mean that an "INTERESTING NEW PRODUCT" that gets no review at all could be of "not too good quality" . . . . . . . . . .

PS. I think the DOS thread has become something else during the last weeks, I bet most of us have "forgotten" where it was all about and It became kind of a running gag on this forum just for fun and breaking some kind of self-set record, a nice place for posting for posting sake ,and for now : you know what to expect overthere: kind of digital playground, where erveyone is able to blow off digital steam, feel free to post without being labeled a hypocrite. it is now just for post-counting and some record i guess.[:-,] couldn't resist to put in one of those!

PPS I am interested in the stats and topic what you will come up with! (did you get any usefull information from the DOS topic? that mostly gifs and numbers!)

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by lupo

[:)][:)]Thanks all for your reactions![:)][:)]

BigBoy4005,
you have a point on the hobbystore issue, but being a US RR fan living in Europe (the south-west part of Holland) , there are hardly any LHS selling US model stuff around here, the closest I heard off wich has SOME US trains should be in Amsterdam, about a 2 hour drive from where I live, so you don't pop in there on a rainy afternoon to ask if they stock the new Lionel Veranda Turbine ( that is where I got the idea about this post : I want it but is it really gonna be good, ? the only way for me to get it is: Mailorder by the internet )
So in this case I think I have to rely on whatever information I can get out of magazines and certainly on information I get from you guys at this forum, because of your experience and vast knowledge of the US MRR market.

You have a very good point there, and to you and any others in your situation, I apologize.
As one who models a prototype of a different continent, you are truly in an awkward situation.

However, your best source of information may not be the pages of the magazine, but right here on the web!!!! Ask your fellow modelers, they will give you there honest opinion without hesitation, and therein lies the beauty of this forum!!!!

It is not that I distrust the magazines reviews, I just sense that their close ties to the manufacturers causes them to lose some of their objectivity.

P.S. Lupo, at the risk of being labeled a hypocrite, I will no longer post to the DOS topic, though I still have pleanty to say on the matter. I have compiled some interesting stats after Dave's remarks, and will be creating a new topic soon, in order to share them with you and everyone else. In the meantime I'm going downstairs to work on my layout, which I have neglected for the last week, while nursing a rib injury.[:)]

[Anonymous]

Anyone involved in attempting to make a profit/living from the hobby needs to be carefull what they say about a product produced by an advertizer, supplier or competitor. If you work(ed) in a hobby shop that sells a product that is less than it's advertized to be, it's poor businesspractices to bad mouth a product to a customer (if you want to keep your job). Likewise, your not likely to bad mouth an advertizer's product, if you want to keep them as a customer and similarly, if you are a producer of a competitive product, the public should understand your opinion is likely slanted.

Theoretically, the only way a product can be unbiasly reviewed in a magazine is when that magazine's sole income is derived from subscriptions and no advertizements are run. A subscription to these types of magazines is expensive! Although they claim to be unbiased my experiance has lead me to believe all people have a bias one way or the other, especially people who's income is derived from being an expert!

What to do? Like I said earlier, I think MR does a good job of reviewing the products in it's pages. We have to understand the parameters within which they must work and that everyone has biases.

[ClinchValleySD40]

I think they are pretty good. I've seen them do some bad reviews, so not all are sugar coated. It's actually one of my favorite parts of the mag and I wi***hey'd do more in each issue. I do get the feeling they might go back to a manufacture prior to doing the review and tell them it's going to be bad, would they like to have the model back to fix it. I'd be curious if they would have caught the bad fans on the original P2K GP38-2.

[orsonroy]

In the good old days (1960s-1970s) MR's reviews were completely honest and reliable. They called a lemon when they saw one. Starting in the 1980s, the reviews became nothing but fluff rah-rah for their advertisers. This became intolerably bad in the 1990s. Thankfully, I'm noticing that the reviews over the past two months have gotten MUCH better. They're still fluffy, but they do point out the shortcomings.

Part of the problem MR has is the fact that it can't review everything. The sheer volume of released products would swamp the magazine. I do feel that they should occasionally publish a negative review, sort of a "product to stay away from!".

I usually buy Model Rail, published in the UK, for a different take on the hobby. Their reviews pull no punches. The latest issue I bought (February) reviewed a OO scale Heljan diesel, and they ripped it apart. The assembly was bad, the tooling was good, the decoder plug was installed poorly and didn't call out pin 1, the engine pulled well, the truck sideframes were "poor", the gear towers were frozen until they fixed them, the finish was a bit rough, and "the lack of paint on the buffer beams on a model of this cost is unacceptable". You don't hear THAT in an MR review!

[Eriediamond]

I take the reviews with a grain of salt sort of attitude. If the review subject is sent to them from the mfgr then I don't put much stock in them for the obvious reasons. However I do like them, in that I can see some new products I wouldn't normaly see.

[Anonymous]

On a scale of 1 to 10, I'd give them a 7. Many reviews tend to give too much attention to the positives and not enough to the negatives. Not that a reviewer should bloody the nose of the manufacturer, but errors and omissions should, and must, be pointed out. Many reviews fail to do this with consistency. No product is perfect.

As has been seen over the past few years, reviews of products in magazines can often be late because opinions from equally qualified modelers are showing up on forums almost as soon as the products are reaching the hobby shops. The difference between reality and the reviews is sometimes startling. Consider the differences between MR's review of Life-Like's SD60 and the numerous problems that model has had working in a consist with other HO scale locomotives. I'm tending to trust more what I read on forums more due to the wider variety of opinions from these equally qualified modelers (compared with the "experts" at the magazines).

While the magazines will deny it, there is internal pressure for them not to write anything too negative about a product from a key advertiser. Forum posters have little to lose; the magazines stand to lose advertising.

C424

[lyctus]

Over the years the reviews have been fair and balanced. Don't expect a magazine to slam a product if it is bad....they just don't review it. I have seen constructive information/criticism in MR, mainly about fidelity to size, placement of appliances, size of wheels, etc. against their library of drawings, and I think this is good. I also like the performance comments. It leaves us to decide if "started out jerky, but will doubtlessly become smoother running after running in" actually means "be careful , it may be a bit of a dog" . But the thing I am sure about is that the reviews push manufacturers to strive for improvements in their offerings, and I think you would have to agree that over time, these improvements have certainly occured.

[lupo]

[:)][:)]Thanks all for your reactions![:)][:)]

BigBoy4005,
you have a point on the hobbystore issue, but being a US RR fan living in Europe (the south-west part of Holland) , there are hardly any LHS selling US model stuff around here, the closest I heard off wich has SOME US trains should be in Amsterdam, about a 2 hour drive from where I live, so you don't pop in there on a rainy afternoon to ask if they stock the new Lionel Veranda Turbine ( that is where I got the idea about this post : I want it but is it really gonna be good, ? the only way for me to get it is: Mailorder by the internet )
So in this case I think I have to rely on whatever information I can get out of magazines and certainly on information I get from you guys at this forum, because of your experience and vast knowledge of the US MRR market.

[Anonymous]

I think the reviews are fair. Some years ago when Walthers began producing HO scale replicas of Amtrak Superliner cars, the writer indicated that in the tooling process, the first batch of cars had a slightly bowed roof, much to the disappointment of Walthers. Still, the writer pointed out that steps would be taken to alleviate the problem in future production runs. For the consumer, you couldn't ask for a more honest critique. I believe strongly that MR wants to encourage manufacturers to give us the best possible product, and flaws are noted in a constructive manner. This puts the manufacturer on notice, and informs the buyer to wait 'til the kinks are ironed out...take a risk and buy it any way...or simply decline to purchase a particular item. Bashing the manufacturer is counter-productive if you're attempting to promote the positives of the hobby. If a product is truly a lemon however, it ought to be exposed for what it is--but even this should be done in a tactful manner.[:)]

[Big_Boy_4005]

If you want a real review, go to your local hobby store!

The people there will know what is good, and if it is bad, they will probably not stock it! If you are interested in an engine most stores have a display model, and a test track so you can see one run before you buy it. You can ask if there have been returns or problems with a specific item.

Generally manufacturers make good stuff, but sometimes a newly designed product will have a problem, but things like that are rare, and if it happens, word spreads quickly. Some manufacturers are better than others, a good hobby clerk will know which ones to recommend and which ones to stay away from, all you have to do is ask.

Online and mail order is for people who know what they want, and don't expect service in helping to make a selection. But don't expect a product review that you read in a magazine to substitute for seeing or even trying the product yourself. That's what your LHS is for!!! You wouldn't buy a car without a test drive would you???

How do I know all this? I used to work in a hobby store for a living.