I have been a die hard B&O fan for years. B&O is the first railroad i can distinctly remember (Bright orange and yellow Chessie/B&O diesels rolling through Phillippi, West Virginia, when i was a child) and my former layout was small (by HO standards) but a B&O layout. In HO, things were scarce, but available. In N....well, lemme say i am jealous of you Pennsy fans.
Not only are there a couple nice PRR specific steamers around, there are PRR specific hoppers (bowser has 2 different hoppers, 2 cabs, im sure there are others) decals, buildings, and now a GG1 from Kato.
Dont get me wrong, us B&O guys have it alright. The Spectrum 2-8-0 that is such a popular lil critter looks like a direct clone of an E-27 (i havent got one yet, but wow from each pic ive seen, they are CLOSE) The B&Os Q3 Mikes were just USRA light mikes, their T-3 class mountains are pretty close to the spectrum Heavies, and i think there is an 0-8-0 runnin around out there thats based on the L-2 class....There are no B&O "specific" hoppers available in N scale, but thankfully most of the B&Os hopper fleet was pretty generic. OS 2 bays...check. OS 3 bays...check. OS quads....
The bad part is, no availability of B&O specific cars or cabs, no decals, no B&O "signature" engines yet (someone, cmon...knock it off with big boys already, tool up and make an EM-1 or Big Six). The lack of decals has brought my hopper fleet project (62 cars atm and growing) to a screeching halt. This, sadly, is probably the hardest barrier to hurdle, as i am too computer illiterate to design my own decal sheets, even if i could get a printer to make them.
My whining notwithstanding, can anyone point me to a good PRR site? Would like to get a "feel" for the Pennsy....and im gonna order me some of them hoppers from bowser anyways, PRR cars certainly wont look at all out of place in a "B&O" train...presuming i ever got them marked for the B&O, that is. Maybe ill just "try a little Pennsy"...i can quit anytime, right?
Endlessly grumbling about something,
Tim
It'll help to know what scale you're dabbling in.
Atlas makes a 2-bay hopper in N scale that's a pretty close match, and they're introducing an offset side hopper that I believe is based on a B&O prototype. There's also wagontop boxcars available, although outside of brass, I don't know of any wagontop cabeese. I'd like to have one of them myself.
Maybe you don't need to change prototypes, just scales!
Lee
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
Tim,
Here's a very good one:
Keystone Crossings
I model the New York Central so I sympathize somewhat with you. The Pennsy guys really have their act together when it comes to prototype information being readily available.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Ah, i suppose i could have been a bit clearer about the time and scale. B&O in N, in the summer of 1948, just for those so-ugly-you-gotta-love-em LL-1 class 0-8-8-0s. Problem with a lot of B&O models is that they have the large "B&O" in HUGE letters on the sides of the car....which is well and good, but didnt appear until 1952-ish.
Ill need to check out the Atlas model, though if its just a scaled down version of their "Trainman" offering in HO, it is a nice model. The hoppers themselves for B&O arent at all hard to find, as theirs were pretty standard (i think the majority of the N classes, as well as the W-7 triple 70 ton hoppers, were actually AAR designs). Its the decals that are killing me.
Or maybe im just trying to justify having another bunch of stuff i "cant live without".
Anyways, im gonna spend some time on that PRR site. Thanks guys!
2-8-8-0 wrote:...Or maybe im just trying to justify having another bunch of stuff i "cant live without".Anyways, im gonna spend some time on that PRR site. Thanks guys!
...Or maybe im just trying to justify having another bunch of stuff i "cant live without".
Heh, That's why I model Hagerstown in 1971... B&O, N&W, Reading, Penn Central, and of course, Western Maryland!
You may be disappointed to find out that there are, in fact, no decent ready-to-run Pennsy steamers in N scale.
Years and years and years ago Minitrix made PRR-style steam; these included a K4s 4-6-2, a B6sb 0-6-0 (both looked pretty correct), and a a "foobie" I1sa class 2-10-0 made by cramming the K4 boiler onto a German mechanism.
All 3 steamers can be found at shows and on eBay. But they run badly copmpared to today's standards and all have very deep flanges (only work on code 80). None are easy conversions to DCC either. However, I use all 3 for parts.
The Precision Craft Models ready-to-run sound-equipped PRR M1a/b 4-8-2 in N scale is, by all insider accounts, never going to be made due to "lack of demand." PCM had what many considered an unrealistic expectation for pre-orders.
Pennsy steam in N scale reuqires either the skill to re-motor the old Minitrix engines (you can grind down the flanges too) and add new electrical pickups, the fat wallet for brass (which doesn't always run well in N scale either), OR what I do....
I kitbash my own PRR steam. If you're up to a real challenge, GHQ makes a cast-pewter with brass convserion kit to change the Kato 2-8-2 (one of the best running N scale steamers ever made) into a PRR class L1s 2-8-2. The kit is very difficult and took me several months, but the result is worth it.
Then there's what many do, by taking the Minitrix boilers and cabs and adding them to other mechanisms that run better. These usually result in nice running but not 100%-correct locos. That's what I do. Here are my three Pennsy steamers (each represents several months' work):
Click to enlarge. From left to right:
H10sb 2-8-0 #8756. It's a Bachmann Spectrum chassis with a chopped-down Minitrix K4 boiler and a B6sb cab. The tender is also modified. I did an article for the NTrak Steam Information Book (addendum) on it. TCS M1 DCC.
L1s 2-8-2 #762. Kato Mike with the GHQ pewter and brass conversion kit for the boiler, cab, and tender. Still DC.
M1 4-8-2 #6811. You guys saw me build this step by step. Extended Spectrum 4-8-2 frame, spliced K4 boilers/fireboxes with new running boards and scratchbuilt pilot, "facelift," and K4 KW trailing truck. 210F75 tender on extended CC J3a tender frame, spliced K4 tender shells, GMM Trainphone antenna, scratchbuilt doghouse and induction coils. Digitrax DCC.
If this post comes off as "grumpy," please accept my apologies. Quiite the opposite is true. Whereas I was once disappointed that the manufacturers had not "stepped up to the plate" for PRR steam, now I realize how much better a modeler I had to become in order to fill the need. Building steam engines is fun!
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
The PRR Technical and Historical Society (search for PRRT&HS) has about 1 year of "Keystone Modeler" available as pdf's on their site (go to the national site).
Excellent resourch for modeling in general. As it has been pointed out, if you are modeling any road in the 1950's, you are also a Pennsy modeler. They have articles on how to build virtually every class of PRR gon.
In addition Teichmoeller's "Pennsylvania Railroad Steel Open Hopper Cars" describes every class of PRR open top hopper car there is (the modeling is HO oriented but their are gobs of plans, drawings, photos and charts).
Dave H.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Dave, those three are beauties!
This PDF about reefers, does someone has link?
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Aaaah, i thought that Precision had released the M-1, and also thought someone had done a K4...appears i was mistooken! That stinks too....i have always thought that the M1/M2 was probably the prettiest steam engine of all time.
I plan to order a couple of the L1 kits from GHQ (i have to admit, PRR engines are pretty beasts. I love the squared firebox, long, lean look, and the overhanging cab roofs and i see nothing wrong at all with a few PRR critters runnin on my layout) I have been buying minis from GHQ for years, those guys are top notch.
If i can ask, what did pennsy use for its coal drags? Did they doublehead a lot, or did they have some articulateds? On the more familiar (to me) B&O, coal drags, at least on the west end, were pulled by ELs and EM1s, PERIOD, until the coming of the diesels. I havent found much reference to PRR articulateds, however.
Im well into my first scratchbuild of a steamer in N, an EL-1 for the B&O. Ive got the pilot just about done, need to build the majority of the boiler yet. Hopefully will post pics in a week or two (TY Bachmann for your beautiful extended Vandy tender, btw! PERFECT match for the EL!)
Off i go, to read more PRR stuff. Maybe the PRR, not the B&O, would obtain control over the Western Maryland. PRR on one side of the Potomac, B&O on the other....
Pennsy tried articulateds around WWI, but no luck. They had several ex-N&W 2-8-8-2s thrust upon them during WWII, but they saw little service.
Most steam-powered coal drags had a single M1 on the Middle Division or a J1 on the Pittsburgh Division with helpers over the top at Gallitzen.
Pennsy's mainline grades were west of Altoona and east of Harrisburg; the fabled Middle Division was all river-level so rarely required doubleheading steam. Diesels, yes, but M1s could do the job one at a time for coal drags.
Dave Vollmer wrote:. . . . . . . . . . You may be disappointed to find out that there are, in fact, no decent ready-to-run Pennsy steamers in N scale . . . . . . . . . . .
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
if someone could, could you post a link to the thread where Dave scratchbuilt the M1? Ive used the search function and cannot seem to locate it. Thanks!
I have threads scattered about on it. Other forums I've posted a more coherent construction log. But I have it in mind to publish an article in a magazine about it, so I don't want to give too much detil out; not fair to the magazine.
Some bits here:
http://www.trains.com/trccs/forums/1306614/ShowPost.aspx
2-8-8-0 wrote:Ahh, magazine article would be better yet. Easier to set that near the workbench. I will keep my peepers peeled.
Hey, I edited my post above and added a link to a thread with some detail.
2-8-8-0 wrote: If i can ask, what did pennsy use for its coal drags?
2-10-0's, "hippo's", lots of them (almost 600) I-1's. Waaaaaaay cool engines. Haul as much as you want anywhere you want it, as long as you only want to go 25 mph. 8-)
The vast majority of the "articulateds" on the Pennsy were electrics (GG, DD). The Pennsy did have on class of its own steam articulated's, class CC-1, 0-8-8-0 drag engines used in Ohio I believe. In 1947 there were 10 of them on the roster.
Actually the PRR controlled the N&W and the LV.
The WM is another big 2-10-0 user, although theirs were designed for higher speeds. The WM and the RDG shared trackage, the WM used 2-8-0's, 2-10-0's and 4-8-4's while the RDG used 2-8-0s, 2-10-2's and 4-8-4's.
If I wasn't so married to my freelanced Western PA road I devised and the modern era, I'd probably have a track plan of part of the Conemaugh division kicking around waiting for space and money. Do wish I could track down detailed diagrams of the trackage in my home town though. Track charts only show so much of the picture, you know? Probably could try to track down the Sanborn maps but I'm not sure when those actually would be from.
Hey, good call... Almost forgot about the Pennsy's 598 I1-class 2-10-0s.
They served in all sorts of capactities... Up on the PRR Northern Division and Shamokin branch, it was not uncommon to see a coal drag with 4 2-10-0s! Two up front and two pushing on the rear, of course...!
I've been thinking mainline... but forgot all about the PRR's many coal branches. Lots of doubleheading there.
And, you're in luck. Just this fall, Railroad Model Craftsman ran a 3-part article by Max Magliaro on kitbashing an N scale PRR I1sa 2-10-0 from a Kato 2-8-2 and the GHQ kit!
I have a question and I am NOT (I repeat..NOT) trying to start any trouble here!
I really don't know much about the Pennsy, but I'm just curious why it is considered the world standard when roads like Canadian Pacific and Union Pacific have been around longer and are still going strong? Were they innovators? Were they more profitable? Better on time performance? What was it that made Pennsy so special?(just asking a question...)
loathar wrote:Were they more profitable?
I don't know much about them either, but yes. They posted a dividend for their shareholders for over a hundred years in a row, where the largest company on the planet at one point, and also at some point had a larger budget than the federal government.
In just one day on Pennsy's 4-track mainline across Pennsylvania one could witness the passing of over 50 named passenger trains in the 50s.... interspersed among 100 regular freights and coal drags.
Pennsy owned (and built most of) over 10,000 steam locomotives.
When Pennsy liked a freight car design (like the H21a hopper), they built 30,000 of them.
When Pennsy decided it liked the I1 class 2-8-0, it built or bought 598 of them.
Until its death in 1968 Pennsy owned 10% of the freight cars in revenue service across North America.
Pennsy bought and cleared dozens of blocks in midtown Manhatten and proceeded to build a 2-block-wide station and tunnels under the Hudson River... before 1910.
Pennsy operated the most electrified trackage in North America.
Pennsy owned the busiest commuter railroad in the world (the Long Island Rail Road).
Pennsy designed and built the GG1 and the K4.
Pennsy operated the first all-steel passenger fleet.
Pennsy operated over 10,000 route miles in the era before the mega-merger.
Pennsy's Enola Yard (across from Harrisburg) was the world's largest classification yard. Conway Yard, west of Pittsburgh, was the nation's largest automated hump yard.
Pennsy was a pioneer in piggyback service, and started TTX Corp.
By the way, Pennsy pre-dates the UP and CP by a wide margin - 1848. It was, of course, merged out of existance in 1968.
Pennsy wasn't the standard other railroads went by. Pennsy was its own standard. For example, the 573 L1s class 2-8-2s, 598 I1s class 2-10-0s, and 475 K4s class 4-6-2s shared identical boilers. PRR standardized everything... to itself.
Even today, the Northeast Corridor, America's only high-speed rail network, is a vestage of Pennsy. Most of it was constructed 100 years ago! Back then, 4-4-0s and 4-4-2s routinely hit 100 mph on the Corridor.
Need more examples?
Few q's to Dave and other Pennsy fans:
- can somebody explain why 4-track main was needed? From where it run? Was todays NEC from Wash. to NYC all PRR main?
- so, those HO P2K Heritage 2-8-8-2 are accurate models of real PRR locos? Also USRA 0-6-0?
- what is the general impression on Spectrum PRR K4 HO model?
- So, 2-10-0 or 2-8-2 plastic model od PRR locos was NEVER produced to this day?!
Also, if somebody has link to this reefer PDF article...
Thommo wrote: Few q's to Dave and other Pennsy fans:- can somebody explain why 4-track main was needed? Extreme traffic volume and need to de-conflict passenger traffic with freight.- From where it run? 4 tracks from Philadelphia to Pittsburgh. Overall PRR ran from New York to Chicago, St Louis, Buffalo, NY, Michigan, Virgina... All over.- Was todays NEC from Wash. to NYC all PRR main? All PRR yes, but not the mainline. Mainline went from NYC to Chicago.- so, those HO P2K Heritage 2-8-8-2 are accurate models of real PRR locos? Yes. PRR got them from the N&W and classed them HH2. They didn't last long, and spent most of their time in Ohio.- Also USRA 0-6-0? No.- what is the general impression on Spectrum PRR K4 HO model? Looks great but can't pull its own tender. Bowser makes a re-powering kit.- So, 2-10-0 or 2-8-2 plastic model od PRR locos was NEVER produced to this day?! No, not in any scale. 2-10-0 and 2-8-2 available in HO (metal kit) from Bowser.Also, if somebody has link to this reefer PDF article... http://www.prrths.com/Keystone%20Modeler/Keystone_Modeler.htm
- can somebody explain why 4-track main was needed? Extreme traffic volume and need to de-conflict passenger traffic with freight.
- From where it run? 4 tracks from Philadelphia to Pittsburgh. Overall PRR ran from New York to Chicago, St Louis, Buffalo, NY, Michigan, Virgina... All over.
- Was todays NEC from Wash. to NYC all PRR main? All PRR yes, but not the mainline. Mainline went from NYC to Chicago.
- so, those HO P2K Heritage 2-8-8-2 are accurate models of real PRR locos? Yes. PRR got them from the N&W and classed them HH2. They didn't last long, and spent most of their time in Ohio.
- Also USRA 0-6-0? No.
- what is the general impression on Spectrum PRR K4 HO model? Looks great but can't pull its own tender. Bowser makes a re-powering kit.
- So, 2-10-0 or 2-8-2 plastic model od PRR locos was NEVER produced to this day?! No, not in any scale. 2-10-0 and 2-8-2 available in HO (metal kit) from Bowser.
Also, if somebody has link to this reefer PDF article... http://www.prrths.com/Keystone%20Modeler/Keystone_Modeler.htm
Answers in italics above.
Sorry Dave, but the PRR did receive about 20 USRA 0-6-0's and if remember without looking at my Pennsy Power II book, I think they were class B-28.
They PRR also received 5 or 6 USRA Mikes and they were class L2 and spent their days on the GR&I.
Rick
Rule 1: This is my railroad.
Rule 2: I make the rules.
Rule 3: Illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices is always welcome, but in the event of visitor-perceived anacronisms, detail descrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1!
dti406 wrote: Sorry Dave, but the PRR did receive about 20 USRA 0-6-0's and if remember without looking at my Pennsy Power II book, I think they were class B-28. They PRR also received 5 or 6 USRA Mikes and they were class L2 and spent their days on the GR&I.Rick
Oops!!! Sometimes I forget about Lines West.
PRR owned 30 of the superheated USRA 0-6-0, class B28s. They were certainly overshadowed by the B6 variants, of which over 350 were built. The USRA-types spent most of their lives west of Pittsburgh. After WWII, a few made it back east to the Wilmington area, but were rarely used and off the roster by the early 50s.
So yes, you're correct. The Pennsy did have some USRA 0-6-0s. But PRR owned and operated over 900 0-6-0s of various designs, of which the USRA type totalled only 30. A much more representative Pennsy switcher is the Belpaire-fireboxed B6sb 0-6-0 from Bowser.
The Pennsy also owned USRA 2-10-2's (class N2?) and leased RDG T-1 4-8-4's in the mid 50's.
Older brass HO Pennsy models are usually fairly reasonable on E-Bay.
dehusman wrote: The Pennsy also owned USRA 2-10-2's (class N2?) and leased RDG T-1 4-8-4's in the mid 50's. Older brass HO Pennsy models are usually fairly reasonable on E-Bay.Dave H.
True! But all the N2 2-10-2s were rebuilt prior to WWII with Belpaire fireboxes and PRR-style smokebox fronts. So while the frames, boilers, and valve gear were USRA, the N2 looked Pennsy: