jktrains wrote:Chuck - You've apparently missed the point Pelle is trying to make, which is to avoid modeling the unusual whether is trackwork, rolling stock, locomotives, scenery etc.
As he points out, avoid double slip switches on the mainline and other unusual trackage, unless there is a prototypical example of it.
In all my railfanning the only place I've seen a double slip is in a congested passenger station, not out in some small town switching area.
Modeling the mundane is what makes a scene believeable.
How many prototype pictures have you seen of a train passing in front of or over a waterfall?
I'll disagree with Chuck's last thought also, there may be different places, but the same rules apply, not different rules.
Thanks!
Oh, and uh... There was a cut west of Huntingdon with some tilted, but not folded, strata...
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
jktrains wrote:He's eliminated the unusual, the cutesy double meaning names, and for the most part he's not using the same models that everybody uses on their layout like DPM and Cornerstone buildings or, as we're now seeing, the same Fresh Cherries cars.
Nothing pulls my brain harshly from suspending my disbelief to accept that a model is reality to realizing its only a model like seeing another New River Mine. Its a good kit and I plan on kitbashing one later, but the thing is everywhere and always looks the same no matter what you do to it. Although if you happen to model PRR/Conrail/NS's Pittsburgh line, you can get away with using City Classics buildings without me having that disconnect. Some of those buildings are only a few blocks from the station, I swear. I'm convinced that their 106 East Ohio Street kit is on Grant Street and the rest of their high-rise kits are within two blocks.
Of all the pictures in the discussed article, the two things that really sell me on a convincing modern day scene are kinda funny. The first is the access road. 80% of the time I see railroad tracks in my day to day life, its a single tracked mainline winding its way through a low place between two hills, flanked by a creek on one side, and two gravel-y ruts on the other. The other one, was that billboard. A billboard on its own isn't really much to me, but that he went through the trouble of putting that Lamar logo on it did it. A real billboard has Lamar, Clearchanne, or someone else's logo front and center. That kind of little detail sells "real world" to me more than even the content of the billboard itself. The variety of advertising on them is endless, so you can put pretty much anything you want on it and its believable. But they ALL have some marketing company's logo on them. And there's only a few of those.
And, Mr Dave Vollmer, every time I see pictures of your layout, I'm trying to figure out when I passed through that town. Its gotta be west of State College-Bellefonte, with those non-folded rocks in the cuts
Autobus Prime wrote:"It's the moment of time in which we live."So?
"It's the moment of time in which we live."
So?
So... If one wishes to model a credible version of the "now," one has to include those details, including the sprawl. That's the point I'm making.
Unless you're modeling a very rural area or a town with a strict historical architecture code, a model of the modern day looks less credible without it.
BRAKIE wrote:Great modeler but,needs to study more..His roadways are to clean-no oil drops.rubber tracks etc...I thought one photo( the one with the Denny's restaurant) was a picture of the real thing on the first look..A closer look revealed it was indeed a model due to the street surface
Pelle is NOT making a duplicate of reality ... he is creating an image of believabily without making your eyes go looking for oil spots or a dog watering a fire hydrant. Unless you live in Mojave, which is not road correct anyway, would you actually look at the pavement for tire marks? A good layout is an illusion ... and besides it's not Mojave, perhaps the roads in Daneville are spotless .....
Dave Vollmer wrote: ...It's much easier, however, to imagine yourself railfanning that strecth of Pelle's railroad and stopping at that AM/PM for a cold Coke......or being on a road trip and spending the night at that Best Western and having breakfast over at Denny's.It's the moment of time in which we live, right now, whther or not we like it.
...
It's much easier, however, to imagine yourself railfanning that strecth of Pelle's railroad and stopping at that AM/PM for a cold Coke...
...or being on a road trip and spending the night at that Best Western and having breakfast over at Denny's.
It's the moment of time in which we live, right now, whther or not we like it.
And that's what makes it easy for people to identify with, that and the fact that his modeling is very well done. You look at the scene and recognize it as something you seen recently. He's eliminated the unusual, the cutesy double meaning names, and for the most part he's not using the same models that everybody uses on their layout like DPM and Cornerstone buildings or, as we're now seeing, the same Fresh Cherries cars. The Denny's or Best Western or AM/PM Gas station are things that everyone recognizes and identifies with. It would be the same if it was a McD or Burger King or Red Roof Inn.
The other important part that has been mentioned, but not really talked about or stressed, is the fact that he goes on research expeditions. His modeling is based on his research and photographs. He's not using a photograph to model exactly what's in it, but uses it as a reference its sounds like.
CAZEPHYR wrote: Autobus Prime wrote: I hope this doesn't become a trend - as nice as the scene looks, the geography of nowhere is not exactly a familiarity that I really enjoy having. :( Pelle has done well, but a model railroad world of Walmarts and Chick-fil-A's...yikes. If you model today's railroad, the Walmarts and whatever need to be there. I model the late forties era and can skip any of the names used today except Sears and a few other that have been around for many years.
Autobus Prime wrote: I hope this doesn't become a trend - as nice as the scene looks, the geography of nowhere is not exactly a familiarity that I really enjoy having. :( Pelle has done well, but a model railroad world of Walmarts and Chick-fil-A's...yikes.
I hope this doesn't become a trend - as nice as the scene looks, the geography of nowhere is not exactly a familiarity that I really enjoy having. :( Pelle has done well, but a model railroad world of Walmarts and Chick-fil-A's...yikes.
If you model today's railroad, the Walmarts and whatever need to be there. I model the late forties era and can skip any of the names used today except Sears and a few other that have been around for many years.
CAZ:
I model the future. All the Walmarts and Chick-Fil-A's are decaying ruins. Railroad equipment is strangely like that of 1936. History is cyclical that way.
Okay, I model the mid-30s. But don't think I'm not tempted to do that other thing...or else to model a version of the present WITHOUT the miracle miles.
I mean, I'm in this to have fun, right? Why would I pollute my plywood with the same dreary plastic world that is the bane of my daily existence? Well, that's not true...I live in an old American foursquare in the city. But I do drive to Nowhere once in a while.
Dave Vollmer wrote: Something about the modern era...Yeah, sure, I wish I could have been trackside at Altoona in the 40s and seen triple-headed K4s pulling passenger trains out of town headed for The Curve, but I wasn't. I have to imagine what it was like.It's much easier, however, to imagine yourself railfanning that strecth of Pelle's railroad and stopping at that AM/PM for a cold Coke......or being on a road trip and spending the night at that Best Western and having breakfast over at Denny's.It's the moment of time in which we live, right now, whther or not we like it.
Something about the modern era...
Yeah, sure, I wish I could have been trackside at Altoona in the 40s and seen triple-headed K4s pulling passenger trains out of town headed for The Curve, but I wasn't. I have to imagine what it was like.
Well said!
It has been my pleasure to see both sides of this story since my railfan experience goes back to the late forties. We lived near the PRR St. Louis main line and watched the T1's, J1's and K4's do their best work. We even had two H10's stationed at the coal dock in Effingham under steam for protection power until about 1950.
Last week, I visited the Pennsylvania Railroad museum and looked at their new layout. It was not there the last time I visited so it is new to me. It is very good also and has the large Denholm coal dock west of Mifflintown as one of their main attractions. Now that is a sight to see, but in HO.
Autobus Prime wrote: jktrains wrote:Exactly! That's the reason it looks realistic; he's modeled what everyone knows very well. Everyone is familiar with the Highway-suburbia landscape. including things like a Denny's, an ARCO gas station fast food places etc are things everyone sees and relates to. That's what i mean by modeling the mundane. That's also what the AM and NEB&W did/do so well - they reflect the everyday and not the unusual. Your brain sees the everyday and instantly recognizes it. When the unusual, unique is modeled, your brain looks at it and then has to stop and consider that its not used to see that and consider is it realistic.jk:I hope this doesn't become a trend - as nice as the scene looks, the geography of nowhere is not exactly a familiarity that I really enjoy having. :( Pelle has done well, but a model railroad world of Walmarts and Chick-fil-A's...yikes.
jktrains wrote:Exactly! That's the reason it looks realistic; he's modeled what everyone knows very well. Everyone is familiar with the Highway-suburbia landscape. including things like a Denny's, an ARCO gas station fast food places etc are things everyone sees and relates to. That's what i mean by modeling the mundane. That's also what the AM and NEB&W did/do so well - they reflect the everyday and not the unusual. Your brain sees the everyday and instantly recognizes it. When the unusual, unique is modeled, your brain looks at it and then has to stop and consider that its not used to see that and consider is it realistic.
Exactly! That's the reason it looks realistic; he's modeled what everyone knows very well. Everyone is familiar with the Highway-suburbia landscape. including things like a Denny's, an ARCO gas station fast food places etc are things everyone sees and relates to. That's what i mean by modeling the mundane. That's also what the AM and NEB&W did/do so well - they reflect the everyday and not the unusual. Your brain sees the everyday and instantly recognizes it. When the unusual, unique is modeled, your brain looks at it and then has to stop and consider that its not used to see that and consider is it realistic.
jk:
On the other hand, I like the modern era also that Pelle does so well and his trips here gives him the pictures to work from. He is a credit to our hobby and should get travel plus miles since all of his trips are very long and tiring to get to our area.
Now if he was running SP and AT&SF steam over his layout, that would be a different matter.
Folks identify the pics of my projects as models in about a nano-second. I can't wait until the day when someone has to take a closer look to determine my projects are indeed models.
sponthetrona2 wrote:If Pelle arrived in Boston I would simply pick him up and do our thing. Hopefully one day Pelle asks me to do just that.
If Pelle arrived in Boston I would simply pick him up and do our thing. Hopefully one day Pelle asks me to do just that.
Maybe he could come work on my layout!
The fact that at least some of that impression of incredible realism rests on this easy familiarity also feels a little...unfair...somehow...not in a bad way, but in a sort of jealous way, as if one worked out a way to laboriously solve a problem, and a week later, somebody discovers it can be done in fifteen minutes with a Laplace transformation. It's the opposite of the situation where somebody makes a rivet-accurate NYC J with the Commodore Vanderbilt streamlining, and it looks like a wind-up toy.
We modelers have known the power of locally familiar scenes for years, in provoking strong impressions of familiarity, and thereby, realism. Pelle has, apparently, realized that the homogeneity of our modern public spaces can provoke the same reaction from a large number of people, not just locals. Interesting.
sponthetrona2 wrote:The next adventure for Pelle will be Oregon, Washington, and Idaho ... however the New England area is not without possibility.
Well, if you don't make it to New England.. I have thought that the Port of Tillamook Bay railroad in Oregon looked ripe for modeling based on my online research. I just wish google earth had better images of that area.. From what I have read their engine shop is next to an old blimp hanger which is the largest free standing wood building in the world.
While you are in Oregon, be sure to check out the Red Hook brewery. The sister brewery is here in Portsmouth NH and has some of the finest tasting ale in the region.
Chris
I used to live in Lancaster California about 20 miles south of Mojave and visited that Denny's many times while shooting pictures around that area. His model is very good and his skill at building the models is fantastic. If I remember correctly, the (hotel ) correction not Denny's restaurant planted some of the trees that Pelle had on his model layout since they saw the layout pictures and planted the trees to enhance the real prototype.
Not only is he a great modeler and artist, but he is a great landscape artist also if that story is true.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Autobus Prime wrote: Folks:Not to interrupt the Pelle lovefest...but after reading the magazine, I want to point out a few things.1. His work is well-done, there's no denying that. It has a good overall "look", just like that Midwest Mod-U-Trak layout did. Now, here's the thing - how much of this realism we perceive is really due to his modeling methods, and how much from the theme he's picked? Looking at the railroad itself, it's not really that special...it's very well done, to much higher standards than I can now achieve, but it doesn't beat the AM or the NEB&W, and may not even come up to that. Pelle, however, has also included that highway-and-suburbia landscape surrounding the railroad, which is one we know very well. (emphasis added- jktrains) I almost think that the realism has more to do with his typical Denny's than his typical railroad
Folks:
Not to interrupt the Pelle lovefest...but after reading the magazine, I want to point out a few things.
1. His work is well-done, there's no denying that. It has a good overall "look", just like that Midwest Mod-U-Trak layout did. Now, here's the thing - how much of this realism we perceive is really due to his modeling methods, and how much from the theme he's picked? Looking at the railroad itself, it's not really that special...it's very well done, to much higher standards than I can now achieve, but it doesn't beat the AM or the NEB&W, and may not even come up to that. Pelle, however, has also included that highway-and-suburbia landscape surrounding the railroad, which is one we know very well. (emphasis added- jktrains) I almost think that the realism has more to do with his typical Denny's than his typical railroad
Dave Vollmer wrote: sponthetrona2 wrote: Kalmbach is in Wisconsin so New England is not that far away ... Huh-huh huh-huh...It's just under 1,000 miles between Milwaukee, WI and Hartfort, CT... More than a thousand to Boston. Further still to VT, NH, and ME.Not sure I'd call that "not so far away..."
sponthetrona2 wrote: Kalmbach is in Wisconsin so New England is not that far away ...
Huh-huh huh-huh...
It's just under 1,000 miles between Milwaukee, WI and Hartfort, CT... More than a thousand to Boston. Further still to VT, NH, and ME.
Not sure I'd call that "not so far away..."
Pelle and I have traveled thousands of miles throughout the USA and another 1000 miles or so seems minimal. Our last trip took us 2700 miles bouncing North and South as we traversed toward Wisconsin from California. If Pelle arrived in Boston I would simply pick him up and do our thing. Hopefully one day Pelle asks me to do just that. Remember Pelle's first love is California and this not a contest of can he do this area or not.
Clearly an Eastern urban scene calls for more detail.
However, again, it's not just more that's the point... it's the right detail.
I've seen lots of Eastern urban scenes on layouts that looked too cluttered. I grew up on Long Island, an hour's train ride from New York City. While some real scenes are indeed cluttered, the clutter has a purpose. It's not just a matter of gluing one's "parts box" contents in piles in empty lots.
So I would argue that Pelle's philosophy carries over to the Eastern scene. It's the right details that matter. Equally important is the use of the right colors and correct degree of weathering.
I'll give Pelle the benefit of the doubt that he could pull off a scene of North Philly under Pennsy wires as well as he could do California, if he were given time and first-hand research like he's done for California.
I, on the other hand, had a rotten time trying to reproduce the Rockies when I modeled the Rio Grande Southern. Nobody thought my scenery looked like Colorado. But apparently I've found a niche with what I know, because folks tell me my layout does look like Central Pennsylvania. As a Penn Stater and someone with family all over the Keystone State, I've had tons of firsthand experience with that scenery.
2. His "minimal detail" approach seems to work well for California. I think a person would run into a lot of trouble trying to use it for the East. We have lots of plants and things, and tires and shopping carts.
Minimal detail doesn't mean you eliminate things that would ordinarily be noticed, but only use a sufficient amount so that the mind convinces itself that the scene is more detailed than it actually is. It would work fine for the East. You don't need highly detailed trees to model a forest, just a somewhat amorphous mass of "stuff" that looks like there's a forest there.
Andre
Autobus Prime wrote:2. His "minimal detail" approach seems to work well for California. I think a person would run into a lot of trouble trying to use it for the East. We have lots of plants and things, and tires and shopping carts.
I thought his effort with the mountain pass portion of the layout shows he would do just fine if he pursued an eastern prototype. Any chance we can get him to visit Northern New England??
I have his book "Mountain to Desert: Building the HO Scale Daneville and Donner River" and its one of my favorites. I was similarly inspired by Lance Mindheim's Monon in N. A very different subject but a very similar approach. Both examples I try to emulate.
Autobus Prime wrote:Folks:Not to interrupt the Pelle lovefest...but after reading the magazine, I want to point out a few things.2. His "minimal detail" approach seems to work well for California. I think a person would run into a lot of trouble trying to use it for the East. We have lots of plants and things, and tires and shopping carts.
Everyone will soon be in for a surprise concerning Pelle's creativity, not only in western design, but in layout for houses and trees seen in the eastern part of the USA. Remember his designs are his imagination not copies of a particular scene. This is not "In Praise of Pelle Soeborg" but a realistic view of a man who uses his talent of railroad modeling and shares it with the world. I personally did not like Armstrongs work but for the time he created his masterpiece he was a genius. My opinion does not make him a bad modeler. If the challenge was put forth for Pelle to compete against the best of the best ... hummmm? He has told me many times about the great modelers he admires and has never said I'm better than this one or that one. You really need to sit down with him and see his layout in front of you to understand the man.
Yes, he's one of the best. The article on scene tips is one of the best ones published in MR lately. I am especially taken with his work on roads. He creates some of the most believable road work I've seen. He has his roads follow a different and more natural contour than the rail grade...and his tip on service roads is a nice one too.
When I see these great western layouts, it gives me envy...as I think about having to populate my eastern forest with all these stinkin' trees.
1. His work is well-done, there's no denying that. It has a good overall "look", just like that Midwest Mod-U-Trak layout did. Now, here's the thing - how much of this realism we perceive is really due to his modeling methods, and how much from the theme he's picked? Looking at the railroad itself, it's not really that special...it's very well done, to much higher standards than I can now achieve, but it doesn't beat the AM or the NEB&W, and may not even come up to that. Pelle, however, has also included that highway-and-suburbia landscape surrounding the railroad, which is one we know very well. I almost think that the realism has more to do with his typical Denny's than his typical railroad