Where did you read that?
Magnus
Lillen wrote: Where did you read that? Magnus
On their website.
Hoople wrote:They have a new strategy for pre orders. Offers with free stuff, like the BLI GS4 (originally PCM) with QSI sound, and the first 3000 preorders get a free observation car. They are supposed to ship in Fall, but with BLI's ways, what do you think?
Hoople--
Good God, they're not expecting MONEY to hold an order for Fall, are they? I could be DEAD by that time, and besides, what kind of observation car are they shipping with their GS-4 (which I don't believe is going to come out, anyway!)?
Oboy!
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
twhite wrote: Hoople wrote:They have a new strategy for pre orders. Offers with free stuff, like the BLI GS4 (originally PCM) with QSI sound, and the first 3000 preorders get a free observation car. They are supposed to ship in Fall, but with BLI's ways, what do you think?Hoople--Good God, they're not expecting MONEY to hold an order for Fall, are they? I could be DEAD by that time, and besides, what kind of observation car are they shipping with their GS-4 (which I don't believe is going to come out, anyway!)? Oboy!Tom
No, the bill comes when it ships, and the obs car is a SP daylight one. Currently the daylight cars are scheduled for jan. 2009...
jecorbett wrote:I just can't understand BLI. I love their product but I don't understand how they can stay in business when they can't deliver their product to the market. I have all but given up on them.
I agree... while I love my 4 BLI lokeys, but I finally "hit the wall" regarding my pre-order of the BLI/Precision's Great Northern 4-8-4 which I ordered on June 2nd, 2006 !!! After numerous calls to them requesting a delivery date, I was told that they had just received the latest "delivery date" calendar from the builders, and that calendar showed delivery dates thru the end of May 2008... and the 4-8-4 was not listed.
I asked the lady to please cancel my order, as 24 months waiting for a pre-order was just ridiculous!!!
Bob
This is actually something that may be released on time. Probably to fend off Athearn's daylight cars, and MTH's gs4.
I think I might actually buy this. I'm gonna stick and see if it works out.
ndbprr wrote:Welcome to business 101 called cash flow. They have to have spent millions of dollars on molds alone. Until you sell product your anticipated return is theoretical. Growing too fast exacerbates the problem. Once you have spent all your cash what can you do? Well you can go to a bank and what will they say with the mortgage crisis? I don't think so unless you can prove you have the anticpated income to pay off the loan. So now as a smart business person I will show them a list of people that are standing in line to buy my product. How do I get people to sign up? Offer them something better than if they wait. personally I would love to have some of the BLI PRR engines but I don;t have one. Nor do I have anything from anyone who plays this limited offering game. Put it on a dealers shelf and stock some inventory where I can kick the tires before I buy. There is nothing else I as a consumer have to put up with this nonsense over. I'll get them eventually on E Bay when they are at a price I consider reasonable.
I don't pretend to be an expert on business but you can only play that game for so long. At some point you have to generate some income and to do that you have to have product to sell. While they are sitting around waiting for the preorders to build up to the point they can make a profitable run, they have rent and employees to pay. Now I'm guessing they are largely a virtual company at this point without much in the way of office, warehouse, or factory space and that they are outsourcing the manufacturing of their product but still there has to be some overhead. In any case, if they aren't selling product, their competitors will be and stealing their customer base. I'd say that is business 102.
Man, some of you guys just really have a hate on for BLI/PCM. At every opportunity you have to jump up on the soapbox and tell how you don't like whatever BLI/PCM has done about so-and-so. I have to ask, who else has come along and produced all the products you want, when you want them, while BLI has been admittedly late versus their proposed deliveries? If this was/is such a golden opportunity, why is it still just an opportunity? And don't start with the "they scared off the competition with their announcement" bull-oney. Nobody jumped into the gap in the 50 years people have wanted these things. Nobody else is going to steal their customer base. Rather, they act like they wish BLI had never come along and opened up this whole mess relative to quality reasonably priced steam locomotives.
I have about 7 of their locos, going to get one more I know of, and if they come out with something else I really want, I will get that too. But, if they don't come out with an N&W Class M, I have very small hope of anyone else doing so. I mean the market was hardly full of quality N&W Js, As, or Y6bs, or any of several of the other locos they have produced, before they made them.
I am not saying they are perfect, far from it, but I am tired of this littany. If you don't like their business process, boycott them - or hike on down to the bank and have at it. I want to pre-order an N&W Class M. Not an M1, or an M2, but an M. Now get with it. Or your competition is gonna beat you to it.
It's a free country. You have a right to b**ch, and therefore I have a right to b**ch about your b**ching.
Boy that was constructive.
I am re-entering HO Railroading after a 12 year lapse. Have a new layout with 68 ft of single track mainline & 2, 14 ft passing sidings drawn up. Minimum radius of 24". Planning to go DCC with good quality sound locos. Starting out small, one loco to start. Previously all 12VDC and many BlueBox Athearn's.
Seems like all the mfrs. of the better locos, i.e. Atlas-Gold, Proto 2000, Broadway BLI with QSI sound, are doing this pre-order crap. These is little to pick from in LHS or on-line in these brands, if you want a specific road name, for example UP, forget it. This is a complete change from 12 years ago and frankly has me frustrated. I especially like the looks of the Broadway AC600 UP
http://precisioncraftmodels.com/BLI-1685-GE-AC6000CW,-UP,-7517,-Low-Ditch-Lt.,-Sound-DC-DCC,-HO-i30976-c3372.html
Based on what I read in these forums, seems like the locos I mentioned above are the better ones? I am scared of Athearn's Genesis models with MRC sound-DCC decoders, just because of the bad stuff I have read in this forum over past month or so.
Comments?
Good news: BLI will says the engine will come out in the Fall.
Bad news: Could be Fall 2008, Fall 2009, Fall 2010.....
Which competitors?
So far the only two locomotives that BLI/PCM has announced (relatively) recently that have competition are the USRA light 4-6-2 (Athearn/MDC updated redo of the Genesis 4-6-2) and the GS-4 (MTH has announced one).
And they are selling product. They have quite a few models that actually made it to market, so they have a revenue stream. On a model by model basis, BLI/PCM offers a wider range of steam power than any other manufacturer. That's not counting announced, but not yet available products. They were a startup not so long ago. How many hobby startups go from zilch to the premier supplier of model steam locomotives in a few short years.
Andre
To me Broadway Limited and its Associated Preciscion Craft models are experiencing all the classic signs of a company thats about ready to implode. They started off with a Gimmic (Sound) which they just happened to introduce at the right time. And that good timing catapulted them to the status they now enjoy. But it seems like all the "Profitable" engines have been manufactured. and now they are trying to scrape the bottom of the barrel. A locomotive like a NYC Hudson or a N&W J have broad appeal. (NYC Was just about Everywhere Northeast and the J was an excursion Engine. I have heard through the Rumor Mill that BLI-s Best Selling locos are the N&W J, N&W A ATSF 4-8-4 and Reading T-1. What do all these locomotives have in Common. They are excursion locomotives. Alot of people who model Post steam era could justify these locomotives on their layout Especially if they ridden on an excursion behind one.]
Now please find me a modeler west of Conniticut that is going to to be interested in a New Haven 4-6-4 that isn't a new haven modeler? And they did that and I hear all the time that a Milwauke Road S-3 (#261) is the most requested locomotive BLI gets to have made.
Some one please explain this to me.
Big Sky, I call a foul ! Unless some one can explain to me why any manufacturer manufactures what they do versus what they don't. Why a Triplex? Where are all the USRA excursion locos?
Just kidding.
I would think it's very seldom that the head honchos of model railroad manufacturers are the world's greatest businessman. Most of them are/were model railroaders themselves, and thankfully that passion tends to cloud good business judgement at times. Often, particular models get made because the head honcho or his friends like that prototype. Other times, a particular prototype gets selected because the data and information is readily available to him.
And then the unexpected happens - the model sells well despite a supposedly small audience. The owner of PFM never expected the ATSF 2-8-0 would be his all time best seller - geared locomotives and GN prototypes were his favorites. Bachmann and Roundhouse have also done very well with smaller prototypes (well, not prototype in the case of Roundhouse), which is surprising when you think of how many Big Boy, Challenger, Y class, Yellowstone, and other articulated fanboys there are.
IMHO, the reason existing excursion locomotives get manufactured is not because of the prospect of a broader audience, but because it's easier to get the data and information to make an accurate model. Photos are readily available, and direct measurements can be made. Unfortunately, many of the excursion steam prototypes are no longer accurate replicas of their service days. Tenders may have been changed, paint schemes are typically different, and some accessories have been added or moved.
just my thoughts
Fred W
As long as BLI doesn't ask for money up-front, then I really don't care how long a project takes as long as it actually does come out.
jecorbett,BLI does deliver product to market. That's obvious, or they wouldn't be in business at all. It just so happens they they aren't coming out with products when they originally thought they were. They can't be happy about that as it's costing them money, but financial realities must be dictating what they can do, just like for any company.
IronGoat,I was waiting for my I-5 for over 10 years because that's how long it had been since the last brass model came out. When BLI announced it, I would have waited for as long as it took because I really wanted that I-5.
ndbprr,If you don't have anything from "anyone who plays this limited offering game", then I guess you don't have much. Just about every one (Atlas, Athearn, Walthers, Kato, BLI) plays the "limited offering game" as it's the best way to get the most money for the manufacturer. To them, it's a business (as it should be). I also think it's rather amusing that you think some hobby shop should stock the items for you to examine...and then you'll buy them off eBay. So why should the hobby shop be your showcase?
Virginian,You are correct. Most those that complain basically want the manufacturers to serve only their needs. They want what they want when they want it for cheap prices. They want the ability to pass on a model when it comes out, wait 10 years, then wander into their LHS (that is, of course, on every street corner) and examine it in detail, test it out, etc. They they will go and order it online or by mail order for 50% off MSRP (which will be, of course, never increase above the prices they had known as children). Oh, and that model better be high-quality, too! Puh-leeze.
We are in a golden age of quality models, and there are waaay too many people complaining about it.
djb39,In the past, how long would you have had to wait before an AC6000CW was even available in plastic after GE made it? There is far more available today then in the mid-1990's, and it's available a lot sooner.
MoBSB,That "Gimmic"...they didn't just "happen" to introduce sound at the right time. Factory-installed HO sound was non-existant when the BLI NYC Hudson first came out. Pre-BLI, you had Soundtraxx that you had to install yourself. At least give BLI some credit for having the brains to come up with a product idea that has spread to most all the other major plastic manufacturers (and some brass manufacturers, too). BTW, spinning radiator fans on P2K FA-2's is a gimmick as it adds nothing to the operation of the loco, nor anyone's enjoyment since it was invisible under the grating and was not repeated. Sound is not a mere gimmick because it can add a lot more realism to your operation and most manufacturers have added sound to their locos.
As for your anti-I-5 rant...tell me who is going to be interested in any loco that they aren't a fan of? Can you find me an owner of a Big Boy who isn't a UP fan? IMHO, anyone that owns a Big Boy becomes a UP fan by default.
Just remember this...it's not the size of the railroad that's important, it's how many fans that RR has that are willing to buy. The NH is a popular road back in the day because it traveled through some of the most populated areas in the country connecting one of the largest cities in the world with three state capitals (now with the 13th, 29th and 43rd ranked populations). It's still popular today because of colorful paint jobs, the lack of anything much to replace it (Amtrak), and that Southern New England is not exactly a poor area of the country. IOW, we have money to spend on trains and basements to put them in. Just look at all the NH products that have come out in the last 10 years as proof. We NH fans spend money...manufacturers (BLI included) are only following the dollar signs.
Paul A. Cutler IIIBLI I-5 Owner************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
Paul3 wrote: We are in a golden age of quality models, and there are waaay too many people complaining about it.
I can't believe I am agreeing with Paul. You guys should try brass on for size if you don't like BLI. You will be waiting many years for some stuff. Check out the PSC and Sunset websites to see what I mean.
Please don't call BLI a virtual company. They are no more of a virtual company than any other train import/manufacturer. The hobby is full of manufacturers that announce things and bring them in late or change offerings midstream. Not ideal, but not unusual.
I think I'll go run my BLI "virtual cab forwards" around the layout now. You know the ones with sound factory installed, that have nice detail and cost just a little (discounted on Ebay) more than an old non-sound Rivarossi CF with pizza cutter wheels.......
It is amazing how much venom these guys generate. As Bergie likes to say ..."Remember its only a hobby"
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
I play the Brass game. I pre-ordered an Overland ATSF Budd Full Dome 60 in 05 and finally got my model in 07. The model was worth the wait. So for those of you who want to gripe go ahead but, remember this, you aren't really doing this hobby much justice. If you don't want to wait, don't pre-order the model.
Charlie
MP 53 on the BNSF Topeka Sub
I have been very strong in the beginning when BLI burst onto the scene with thier quality QSI equippted steam engines.
I bought pretty much all of the, resold most all of them on ebay and use the funds to continually maintain the fleet. Over years I kept the merry go around going. I say roughly 30 BLI engines have been owned at one time or another.
Then one day they wanted a preorder for a engine. One year passed. Then two years passed.... I said forget it cancel the order.
Right about that time FDT burst onto the scene offering previous run engines at half price or less. Way less. Finally QSI was thrown to the curb for this... this... casterated Blueline and everything I thought was totally out of production was re run under Blueline.
My canceled preorders rotted for another year while BLI wallowed in the Blueline pit.
Proto started producing engines availible TODAY with QSI and I bought about 6 of them and about to take two more home within a month.. they were holiday gifts from the spouse.
So.. the last 6 engines.. maybe the last 10 engines I bought within the last two years are QSI engines... 6 of them were BLI engines from last year.. the last of the line. I see one engine that will be produced with QSI but decided that I will wait until the actual engine is OUT, reviewed and videos, photos etc is OUT on the internet before making my mind up.
Pre-orders? No such thing is ever happening.
The only time I order stuff is when I expect to take it home from the hobby shop within 4 weeks MAX. Otherwise I get it on ebay or trainshow.
Ive been whored on the pre-ordered merry go around for years... enough is enough. Im sick, angry and fed up with preorders. I was 4 years ago, even more so two years ago and despite trying to moderate and grow up Im still angry today.
My way is dispense with preorders, simplify my life, order something from the hobby shop and it's there ready to be picked up within 4 weeks.
PERIOD. 4 weeks max or forget it.
If it does not arrive in 4 weeks? The world will not end, I will simply do without it and make do. Probably another manufactor will make a suitable product that will fit my need and that is where the money is going to go... sorry BLI. Nothing personal.
Now if they said that they will produce a B&O EM-1 with QSI...why.. I will be calling the store to order it. AFTER I see it actually produced, shipped to the USA and out in reviews via you tube, MR or what not.
Pre-order is dead.
For a company to wish on a star with a stack of preorders before doing actual production.. why that is two birds in the bush and not worth anything.
Trains are fun again without the stress and capital tie-up of pre-orders stretching 6 - 12- 24+ months.
had 6 x broadway locos on order for over 8 months very anoying to have to wait when shops advertise them and when you look at the web site is says still on order............
pre order is a way of life in australia when you model australian railroads the number of models produced is very low 80 to 300 for each item if a seller of a particular locomotive was to sell a loco they would first anounce it ...then start to get persons interested by mentioning an expected price ...then they would ask for a list of person interested ..... then find a manufacturer then work out a price..... they would say $ 350 .. $300 if pre ordered and paid ...... then you sit back and wait 12 to 18 months while they spend your money to make the locos .... then when it arrives you hope it is as good as you were told it would be.... yes buisines 101.. gamble 102. peter
Ah, brass. You are so right Charlie. How long has it been since Sunset announced an N&W K2 Streamlined 4-8-2 loco? I was thinking I would get another one to go with my Key version. Doesn't look good. And in the meantime, no one else has jumped into the breech to fill this momentous need. Imagine that.
If you don't like preorders get ready fo a long uphill climb. In Japan, you go to a showroom and look at cars. You can't buy one of them, though. They even have prototypes/mock-ups of planned models. If you really want to buy one of those, a representative will come to your house and take a pre-order. If you want one of the ones in production, you only have to place a regular order. Oh, and only one representative per manufacturer per region/area. So, no worry with comparison shopping. I am sure they would love to copy that model over here.
I find it just amazing that people complain about pre-orders !
They cost nothing till they're shipped ( in the US, not Australia )so the only cost is time ! 95% of the time NO other company is making the item that you want to pre-order, so if it takes a while to actually be manufactured, so what ? It's not like you can get it somewhere else anyway !
If you didn't know about something and it just appeared in the shops one day and you wanted it, you'd buy it. That purchase might be two years from now, so if you'd buy it unannounced what difference does it make if you'd known it was going to be produced for two years prior to your purchase ?
Would you also be just as unhappy if you missed out on the one loco you've always wanted because you could not place a pre-order for it ? Because maybe the manufacturer had not expected the demand as he had no way of gauging interest in the model.
Or would you moan about how brand X manufacturer had gone broke due to producing some obscure POS that nobody bought and he had a warehouse stacked to the rafters of the things ?
Sorry, I'd rather wait and be safe in the knowledge that I'll get what I want when it's produced, however long that may be !
After all, It's NOT LIFE OR DEATH, it's a HOBBY !
Cheers,
Warren
I guess I don't understand the hubub around this pre-order thing. If I'm not being asked to deposit money, I don't see an issue. The concept of the preorder allows the manufacturer to gauge demand for his project and adjust production schedules accordingly. I didn't preorder anything until the I-5 was announced and ordered one that day from my not so LHS. I've wanted an I-5 forever and just couldn't swing a grand for a brass one. Waiting a year seemed an eternity, but when it came in it was superb, sounded great, looked better and ran like a Switch watch. The point? If I need to preorder to ensure the production of an item I really want, count me in. In my line of work we often need parts that have been out of production for decades. Before we commit to making a run of something I call around to see if there is sufficient interest so I don't get stuck with say a dozen Renault Dauphine Crown wheel and pinion sets that sit in inventory for years (still available at a good price !). Modern business is all about turnover and inventory control and like it or not, it's here to stay. You're alternative is to treat the arrival of a useful piece of equipment as a surprise.
I will say that the collection of preorders without communication on production dates or the number of preorders is a problem that needs addressing. J.R.
Let me show you how I think Pre-order works very well. I will use Rapido as an example because I have actual pre-orders before delivered or pending with thier passenger cars that are very well done.
Pre-order paid to hobby shop, rapido delivery date, stock number and road number.. so far so good.
Several times during the months Rapido updates often and precisely about the product in question. I think one of the coaches suffered bad handling on the Chinese side and they changed factories to improve quality control. That delayed the coach a time. However knowing this, the waiting isnt a trial.
The passenger cars all arrived as advertised, one arrived with flaws however, we already knew about these exact problems and had precise instructions should we discover a car with specific issues so Rapido can take care of them properly. I think one car arrived without wheels. Yes, no wheels... what kind of QC is that? Not to worry, within a week I had a handful of wheels.
Information that flows freely and with precision from the Company to the customer with dynamic and changing time frames that are pretty accurate makes me a very happy customer and will return for more.
BLI.. well.. thier service is a Industry Gold Standard, Ive had engines that are essentially paperweights and destined for the parts box brought back from thier repairs 100% that makes me a loyal customer. But what I dont like is waiting on a engine for two years with NO updates and TBD on thier webpage carrying a 2 year old image that is nothing more than a concept drawing to me.
While that is going on, tons and tons of reruns in the hundreds occured.
I guess they are not interested in generating new engines very often these days. THAT is my issue.
I proactively took care of that problem by finding QSI engines that will fit the time frame and already availible TODAY without waiting any longer. They may not be BLI engines but will serve well enough.
I have been very vocal about this for a very long time. It's past time for me to sit down, be quiet and get on with playing trains, after all the engines are there and running. The pre-order issue is essentially irrevelant and serves no useful purpose for me to rant about it.
Falls River,
Yes, I see your point now and sympathize. My guess is with all the FDT and rework stuff is the folks at BLI are overextended and want to maximize sales on existing tooling before moving forward with more new product. It doesn't help you and doesn't excuse things, but it makes sense of what's going on. I suppose it also puts paid to the arguement about the limited demand for obscure New Haven equipment when the I-5 went to the front of the queue(sp?). I hope they straighten things out because their stuff is so good for reasonable money that I'd hate to lose them as a source. J.R.
trainnut1250,Aw, c'mon, I'm not that bad, am I? Have we in fact crossed swords verbally at some point? I don't remember. I tend to think that I've been fairly well behaved on this forum...and a far cry from what I used to post on r.m.r.
I agree with you that some people nowadays just don't know how good they got it in this hobby today.
Falls Valley RR,You act as if BLI is deliberately not producing models you have pre-ordered. They do want to produce the models. They want the money and they don't want the bad publicity. They want to move product because they have bills to pay. Therefore, if they are not producing a certain model that they are taking pre-orders for, it's probably because there's not enough modelers that want to buy it. Economic reality, as it were.
One of the main complaints about BLI has been the cost, right? So they attempted to do something about it by making "Blueline"...a cheaper alternative. Are they to be pilloried because of that?
Proto, while having a much quicker production schedule, also doesn't make the variety that BLI does in steam.
As for the rest, man, let it go. It's a hobby, for cryin' out loud. Why in the world are you this angry? Were you this angry when you couldn't get much of anything 20 years ago?
If you can't wait more than 4-weeks, than it's quite obvious you don't really want whatever it is you're waiting for. I know this is the instant gratification generation, but that's riduculous.
peterjenkinson1956,While I do pre-order, I will never pre-pay. Leaving a 10% deposit with my LHS is one thing, but pre-pay? Never.
Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************