The worlds ugliest locomotive

[andrechapelon]

Mate, please don't post things like that when I'm drinking coffee. It's taken me ten minutes to clean up the mess I made when I laughed out loud - good one!

I thought I might elicit a chuckle out of you and any Pennsy fan with a sense of humor about his chosen prototype. No, make that just you. The probability of finding such a Pennsy fan is probably on a par with finding a unicorn.....a mauve unicorn.....that's fluent in 7 languages.

 I thought as much. Your tastes are far too catholic not to appreciate an engine like that.

It wasn't always thus. I happened upon a copy of "Spotters Guide To British Railway Locomotives" (at least I think it was the title) back around 1960 and bought it. I was in my teens at the time. My first reaction was that except for some of the Pacifics and the Standard 9F's, the locos were ugly as a mud fence. And then they started grow on me. Everything else followed from that. I had the good fortune to meet Alan Pegler and see "Flying Scotsman" up close when she was on display in San Francisco around 1971. About a quarter century later, I got a chance to ride a Crewe-Holyhead excursion behind FS.

Trips behind steam in several countries (New Zealand, Canada, UK, Germany, Austria and Spain) just convinced me that well designed steam could look rather different from country to country and still be esthetically pleasing.  Let's face it. All steam locomotives are beautiful. It's just that some are more beautiful than others.

EDIT: I sometimes wonder why North American railroads didn't give Garratts a decent try. What with the boiler slung between two engines, you can get a big boiler with a lower center of gravity and an unobstructed firebox of large volume. I may be wrong, but I think a 4-8-4+4-8-4 could have been built for use in North America that would have produced in the neighborhood of 8,000 HP and had an axle load and loading gauge that would have let it roam relatively unrestrictedly. Being bi-directional, there would have been no problem running a coal burner cab first through long tunnels. The only drawback to a Garratt that I can see is that adhesion weight is lost as fuel and water are consumed. The water problem could have been alleviated to some degree by the use of auxiliary water tenders.

Shoot, even the Pennsy could have avoided double heading K4's over the Alleghenies had they used a double Pacific built to Pennsy standards. Sort of an American version of this: http://users.powernet.co.uk/hamilton/bgpix/Plmat1.jpg

Regards,

Andre

 

[SteamFreak]

It wasn't our resident "historian" CNJ831, was it?

Hmmm... he was talking about craftsmanship in the hobby dying out... gee, do ya think?

A steam loco is by it's nature mechanically complex, and the trade-off between efficiency and maintenance has always been a big factor in their design.

I thought they were just a motor, worm, and a couple of gears? Oh yeah, and occasionally a flywheel.

 

I agree that one's exposure to the prototype plays the biggest role in the development of your personal aesthetic. The Crocs still look odd to me, but they're interesting at the same time, and I'm sure I would love them if I'd had more exposure. I like almost anything with siderods anyway.

But nothing can make the face of a Niagara attractive. Yuck.

[AggroJones]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder...

[andrechapelon]

EDIT: I didn't see Andre's responseuntil just now, but I'm glad that someone else appreciates these E-loks. Good on yer, Andre!

Thanks, Mark. I've got an SBB Ce6/8 in the brown livery from ROCO as well as the 1189 (orange livery) of the OeBB. The problem with the RhB Krokodil is that if I bought one, I'd want to model the RhB. It's just too appealing. http://www.albulabahn.ch/index_e.html

Couple of nice videos to watch there

BTW, what do you do to get the umlauts over a, u, o?

Andre

[marknewton]

Oh, Andre, you disappoint me! There's any number of American engines that were uglier.

Shhhh!! Pennsy fans are everywhere.

Mate, please don't post things like that when I'm drinking coffee. It's taken me ten minutes to clean up the mess I made when I laughed out loud - good one!

I was being tongue-in-cheek.

I thought as much. Your tastes are far too catholic not to appreciate an engine like that.

I kinda like the 310's, although I prefer the class 12 2-8-4's.

They're a big, handsom ebrute of an engine, I like 'em too. There's a Romanian copy that's been put back into traffic recently, too.

I kinda like the NSB's type 49 "Dovergubben", too.

Nice! Not an engine I'd seen before either, thanks for the links. You can tell from that photo it snows a lot in Norway, eh?

Course if you want ugly, all you have to do is go back to the 1830's B&O and their "Crabs" and "Mud Diggers".

The Winans "Camels" wouldn't win any beauty prizes, either.

Yes, I'd have to agree, although the Camel has a certain Heath-Robinson charm about it.

All the best,

Mark.

[marknewton]

I don't know about "duck's nuts" but I like the looks of most Garratts even though I never saw one except in photos. SAR GMAM's are pretty neat...

You're not wrong, Andre. I don't think there's an Garratt in Africa I don't find appealing. But GMAMs are definitely high on the list. Also NGG16s - and they're just the right size for a backyard railway!

p>I was sorely tempted to order the AD60 from Eureka. http://eurekamodels.com.au/Garratt.html

Lord, that sure is a pretty engine.

Mate, they certainly are that. And they ran as well they looked, and they were a beautiful engine to work on. I'd buy one of the Eureka AD60s myself, but the proprietor of Eureka Models is my old boss, and I'd hate to make his retirement more comfortable than it already is!

All the best,

Mark

[marknewton]

Then there's the Swiss crocodile. The one engine SWMBO won't let me bring into the house....

There you go, the "eye of the beholder" again. I like the "krokodils", I reckon they look like they mean business. I also rate the metre-gauge Rhätische locos as well - nicely proportioned and incredibly durable. I have a Bemo model of one in HOm, just for display.

Cheers,

Mark.

EDIT: I didn't see Andre's responseuntil just now, but I'm glad that someone else appreciates these E-loks. Good on yer, Andre!

[marknewton]

I know, don't believe everything you read, right?

Absolutely. But don't take my word for it either, do a bit of your own research. You'll soon see that many of the designs featured at LOCOLOCO were quite successful.

I was talking to the guys at the LHS after hours a few day ago, and one of them was leafing through a book on the CNJ and started complaining about all of the factual errors. According to him, anyway.

It wasn't our resident "historian" CNJ831, was it?

I tend to think of a design as unsuccessful if it didn't spawn more than a few experimental examples.

It depends, I think. There were some locos built in very small numbers because that's all that was required, but they were no less successful than those built by the thousands.

Most, if not all of those designs compounded the mechanical complexity of the loco instead of simplifying it, offsetting any potential efficiency increase with excessive maintenance costs.

A steam loco is by it's nature mechanically complex, and the trade-off between efficiency and maintenance has always been a big factor in their design. Look at certain French engines as an example - fiendishly complex and buggers to maintain, but also very efficient. The French railways were prepared to wear that, because they had a maintenance regime optimised for such locos.

Cheers,

Mark.

[andrechapelon]

Oh, Andre, you disappoint me! There's any number of American engines that were uglier.

Shhhh!! Pennsy fans are everywhere.

I was being tongue-in-cheek. I kinda like the 310's, although I prefer the class 12 2-8-4's. http://dampf.webmedia.hu/index.php?showpic=252&galid=6&page=

I kinda like the NSB's type 49 "Dovergubben", too. http://www.jernbane.net/norge/damp/tp49/49a463_01.jpg

'Course if you want ugly, all you have to do is go back to the 1830's B&O and their "Crabs" and "Mud Diggers".

The Winans "Camels" wouldn't win any beauty prizes, either.

Andre

[marknewton]

Andre,

Whoever designed that first (???) obviously never heard of the KISS principle.  8 cylinders, 3 crewmembers (none of whom were co-located) and a length approaching that of Big Boy, all for a paltry 3000HP, a figure well within the capability of several 2-cylinder USRA designs...I'll bet the driver really enjoyed sharing his space with that humongous flue joint and a steam air brake compressor...

Chuck, are you referring to the "Leader"? I always thought that the concept was sound, but like many of Ollie's projects, it was let down by the details. Scrub round the sleeve valves, chain drive, and Briggs-type boiler, and you'd have the makings of a good loco.

IIRC, it was only a six-cylinder engine, three per bogie, with a crew of two. I think the fireman's lot was worse than the driver's, just quietly.

(I must admit , I've always been partial to the beast. If the Central London Railway 1903 MU stock had grown up to be steam engines, they'd have looked like the "Leader"!)



Cheers,

Mark.

[marknewton]

The DB-3, is it real ? With that paint scheme, it looks like something from the Teletubbies !!

Cheers,

Warren

LOL! According to my two year old son, Teletubbies go off!

But yes, the DB-3 is real. If the purple and yellow doesn't appeal to you, how about these?





Incidentally, you're not the bloke who's had some articles published in CM, are you?

All the best,

Mark.

[marknewton]

He's right, you know. We had nothing as ugly as this:

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/at/steam/310-16/310-23_mvp_200903.jpg

Oh, Andre, you disappoint me! There's any number of American engines that were uglier.

Anyway, Austrian engines aren't ugly, they're just - ah - Austrian. Some of my favourites are:





And I raise my glass to the GKB, who hung on to these lovely old dowagers, and ensured they were preserved.

Any locomotive with a Franco-Crosti boiler rates very highly on the ugly scale.

You reckon? I quite like the looks of the BR 9Fs that had F-C boilers.

All the best,

Mark.

[andrechapelon]

So what we're saying, by omission, is that a Garrett is concidered to be a "handsome" beast?

All a matter of taste, nothing else. I reckon that there were many handsome Garratts - and admittedly, some bloody ugly ones!

The problem with Garratts is not ugliness, it's simply that they're unfamiliar to North American eyes. If you grew up with them it would be a different story. As a kid I used to watch double-headed AD60s storm past our back fence hauling heavy export coal trains. I thought they were the duck's nuts - an I still do!

All the best,

Mark.

I don't know about "duck's nuts" but I like the looks of most Garratts even though I never saw one except in photos. SAR GMAM's are pretty neat. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRbTLWwA638 . The GL Garrats were actually more powerful as the GMAM's were designed for use on 60 lb rail. The GL's were good for 89,000 lbs of TE.

EAR 59 class Garratts were rather powerful for their size. IIRC, they were rated at around 83,000 lbs of TE and that's meter gauge. Both the SAR GL's and EAR 59's were roughly the equivalent of the standard gauge B&O S-1 2-10-2 in tractive effort. Not bad for narrow gauge. EAR 5918 is about 1/2 way down the page here: http://www.livesteaming.com/Beyer-Garratts.htm

I was sorely tempted to order the AD60 from Eureka. http://eurekamodels.com.au/Garratt.html

Lord, that sure is a pretty engine.

Andre

[marknewton]

That's the one, Mark.  Looks like the GG-1s ugly baby sister!

LOL! Chuck, you are unkind! Good description, but!

If the color scheme is accurate, I'm glad I'd only seen black and white pictures...

Apparently it is. There's not much published in English on the DB-3s, but some years back there was an article in JRM that featured a small colour photo. Allowing for the age of the photo and vagaries of CMYK printing, the model seems to be a close match. Maybe I have strange tastes, but I rather like it. I reckon it makes a pleasant change from black paint highlighted wiith dirt. But then, I like colourful engines generally - the JNR's Imperial train engines always impressed me.

Some of the other 'entries' make it obvious that ugly is in the eye of the beholder.

Absolutely. As I noted earlier, unfamiliarity is a big factor in determining how people view an object. unlike yourself and one or two other posters, the typical NA railfan/modeller is probably unfamiliar with the looks of railways outside their own country, and so they regard them as ugly. It cuts both ways. I have mates here who look at US locos that I think are quite gorgeous, yet they reckon they're hideous. When I see F units, I always look for a paper bag to put over my head, to block out the view. I can't for the life of me understand their popularity.

Maybe there should be several categories:

• Ugly and unsuccessful.
• Experimental one-offs with less than pleasing aesthetics.
• Unhandsome evolutionary dead ends.
• Wildly - and widely - successful designs that don't look very pretty.

Yes, that's how I'd break it down. Maybe I 'd add handsome, successful locos that were nonetheless mongrel things to work on or maintain, and were hated by enginemen and fitters. I'd put a certain LNER 4-6-2 at the top of that list, closely followed by a certain GWR 4-6-0...

Cheers,

Mark.

[andrechapelon]

Then there's the Swiss crocodile. The one engine SWMBO won't let me bring into the house....

 

More pics at http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/ch/SBB_CFF_FFS/electric/historic/crocodile/pix.html. 

p. 

Come on, dude. I like the SBB Crocs, and I love their little brothers the RhB mini-Crocs.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/22097570@N05/2215335246/in/pool-92101562@N00

Andre

[marknewton]

When a rich American gets the Trabi he ordered, he states full of amazement, "these Germans, always so thorough. Bevor they deliver the car they send a plastic model..." 

How do you double the value of a Trabi? Fill the tank..

Where can you still get original Trabis? At the LHS... 

Cheers, p. 

Ausgezeichnet!

[marknewton]

So what we're saying, by omission, is that a Garrett is concidered to be a "handsome" beast?

All a matter of taste, nothing else. I reckon that there were many handsome Garratts - and admittedly, some bloody ugly ones!

The problem with Garratts is not ugliness, it's simply that they're unfamiliar to North American eyes. If you grew up with them it would be a different story. As a kid I used to watch double-headed AD60s storm past our back fence hauling heavy export coal trains. I thought they were the duck's nuts - an I still do!

All the best,

Mark.

[verheyen]

Whereby the 1st one was definitely better than the sequel, but both definitely enjoyable. If you know German, there are great Trabi jokes at these sites, among others.

• http://www.einfach-autos.de/autowitze/trabi-witze/
  
• http://www.spiegel.de/auto/aktuell/0,1518,467232,00.html
• http://www.spitzenwitz.de/witze/trabi.html
• ...
  

For example

When a rich American gets the Trabi he ordered, he states full of amazement, "these Germans, always so thorough. Bevor they deliver the car they send a plastic model..." 

How do you double the value of a Trabi? Fill the tank..

Where can you still get original Trabis? At the LHS... 

Cheers, p. 

Or a Trabant...

Go Trabi Go!

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0101960/

(One of my favourite films!)

Cheers,

Mark.

[marknewton]

Or a Trabant...

Go Trabi Go!

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0101960/

(One of my favourite films!)

Cheers,

Mark.

[dale8chevyss]

back on, "Ugly is in the eyes of the beholder," on a visit to the railroad museum at Roanoke some years ago I heard a (female) visitor comment, "Why does everyone want to get that ugly old thing back into service?"

She was referring to N&W 611...

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

Obviously someone who didn't see her in working order & hear that whistle.

A HORRIBLE pic I took of her with a HORRIBLE Kodak Pocket Cam on a fan trip a few miles east of Brewster back in the spring of 1989.

 

 

 

To each thier own, but to me (and countless others) that is a slap in the face.  The J, especially the 611, is the furthest thing from my mind when it comes to discussing ugly locomotives.  Even the unshrouded WWII Js are sweet.   

[verheyen]

Then there's the Swiss crocodile. The one engine SWMBO won't let me bring into the house....

 

More pics at http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/ch/SBB_CFF_FFS/electric/historic/crocodile/pix.html. 

p. 

[Packers#1]

Reading No. 60: Proving that even the ugliest of parents can have a beautiful baby!

(The No. 60 was the experimental Baldwin engine that lead to the very handsome VO660) 

 

Cheers!

~METRO 

Looks like a switcher on steriods.

[Packers#1]

Yeah, I saw those when I was browsing Wikipedia. They are pretty ugly.'Course, the second pic was a little nice.

[METRO]

Reading No. 60: Proving that even the ugliest of parents can have a beautiful baby!

(The No. 60 was the experimental Baldwin engine that lead to the very handsome VO660) 

 

Cheers!

~METRO 

[verheyen]

Or a Trabant. Buy yours here. I would.

p. 

That being said, it's the kind of ugliness that grows on you.

Kinda like a Citroen 2CV in the automotive world.

Andre

[andrechapelon]

AND the Gölsdorf http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/at/steam/310-16/310_23_bild1.jpg

is one of the most beautiful steam locomotives ever build, so that makes it clear that north americans dont have any taste whatsoever..." border="0" width="15" height="15" />" border="0" width="15" height="15" />

 

/stefan 

Oh yes it is. A picture may be worth a thousand words, but it's not even close to seeing one up close and personal. I was at the 150th anniversary of Austrian railways and rode behind it.

That being said, it's the kind of ugliness that grows on you.

Kinda like a Citroen 2CV in the automotive world. http://www.2cvimports.com/podcast/podcast.jpg

 

Andre

[andrechapelon]

Hammerhead RS-3 and RSD-5........

What would be the purpose of the tall nose on these engines?

IIRC, the "Hammerheads" had both dynamic brakes AND steam generators in the short hood.

Andre

[Gromitt]

The Bulleid Leader class engine of Britain's Southern Railways

• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_Leader_Class
• http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/leader/leader.htm
• http://www.semgonline.com/steam/leader_01.html

 

Greetings, p. 

This makes " Amos & Andy " look downright HANDSOME in comparison !

AD60 Garrett..................... GOOD LOOKING UGLY !!!

Cheers,

Warren

 

This (Bulleid Leader) is actually a steam locomotive, and in my opinion one of the most cool looking locomotives ever.

 

And a Garrett is NEVER ugly...

AND the Gölsdorf http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/at/steam/310-16/310_23_bild1.jpg

is one of the most beautiful steam locomotives ever build, so that makes it clear that north americans dont have any taste whatsoever...

 

/stefan 

[rs2mike]

Hammerhead RS-3 and RSD-5........

What would be the purpose of the tall nose on these engines?

[rs2mike]

Hammerhead RS-3 and RSD-5........

What would be the purpose of the tall nose on these engines?