So much about model railroading is based in technique, not in scale or size. If you can't put a decal on straight in HO, don't expect miracles in N. If you avoid detailing HO locomotives, then why bother worrying about whether you can do it in N?
Decaling hopper cars isn't the nightmare you make it out to be. But it is the same relatively dull repetitive motion process that it can be in any scale. I know, because I've tried it! Atlas now regularly releases it's hoppers painted with dimensional data only applied, ready for the modeler to apply only his road name and reporting marks. What a Godsend.
I'm not as wrankled about your post as Dave is, but I do get a little weary of HO gaugers pressing their noses against the glass trying to figure out why in the world anyone would choose a scale other than their own...
Just Do It, to quote the ad. Come on in, Chip. The water's fine!
Lee
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
modelalaska wrote:Chip loves discussion. I for one like to read many of the thoughts that come out of Chip's topics. Let him talk out loud for goodness sakes.Peter
Chip loves discussion. I for one like to read many of the thoughts that come out of Chip's topics. Let him talk out loud for goodness sakes.
Peter
Not for nothing, but judging by his post count no one's stopping him.
Chip,
Offended? No. Dumbfounded is more like it. If you honestly can't picture operating in N scale, what business have you hocking your "Beginner's Guide to Layout Design?" Does it show N scale as cutsey loops of track on coffee tables, or does it discount N scale altogether? I confess that I've never read it. But since it's been pushed at newbies by many forum members here, I sure hope it doesn't promulgate your misconceptions about N scale.
Fishing... It's when you've already made a decision, but you're doubting yourself, so you go "fishing" for reassurance that you made the right decision. You don't need my, or anyone else's, reassurance.
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
Dave,
I'm not sure I get what you mean by fishing. But I get that I've offended you by this post. For that I apologize.
However glib it was written, and I am guilty of that, I really could not picture ops sessions with N-scale. I could not picture myself working a pick & separating cars.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
SpaceMouse wrote:Can you really do ops in N-scale? I don't mean theoretically, like you've switched a few cars here and there. Do you have or know of an N-scale layout where guys come once a week and run ops?
Can you really do ops in N-scale? I don't mean theoretically, like you've switched a few cars here and there. Do you have or know of an N-scale layout where guys come once a week and run ops?
Check out "Mississippi Valley N Scalers" with quite a few layouts and pics...
http://mvns.railfan.net/home.html
If you were not told up front that this was N Scale - It would take some time to figure out the actual scale being modeled - The website has apx. 50,000 hits.
Start with the Photo Gallery and these four links...
http://mvns.railfan.net/Jerryslayoutmain.htm
http://mvns.railfan.net/graphics/Jerry2/index.htm
http://mvns.railfan.net/graphics/FredHouska/index.htm
http://mvns.railfan.net/graphics/FredAgain/index.htm
Conemaugh Road & Traction circa 1956
modelalaska wrote: Chip loves discussion. I for one like to read many of the thoughts that come out of Chip's topics. Let him talk out loud for goodness sakes.Peter
No one's stopping him.
But there's a difference between discussion and validation. My point is he shouldn't need us to validate this decision for him.
Chip's a big boy. Either N scale works for him or it doesn't. But we can't make that decision for him.
I enjoy discussion as much or more as the next guy. But this is "fishing."
I too use an optivisor when I need it; I also have a lamp with magnifier (great for detailing scenery,such as putting "No Parking Here to Corner" signs on stopsigns and such too).
Repeat after me ...
"I think I can...I think I can...I think I can..."
(borrowed from the first train book I ever had).
SpaceMouse wrote: Perhaps, I'm just crying out for reassurance that N-scale is doable on a grand basis.
Perhaps, I'm just crying out for reassurance that N-scale is doable on a grand basis.
...and we get to the pith.
Chip, if the many quality, operations-oriented N scale layouts out there in MR, MRP, GMR, N Scale Railroading, N Scale Magazine, RMC, etc. isn't reassurance enough, there's nothing we can add that will assure you.
It's just model trains, man. It's not like you're testing nukes. If it doesn't work out, no one dies. As we say "crap" or get off the pot.
By the way, I've been cutting out individual letters and numbers in dimensional data lettering a PRR X31a in the Shadow Keystone 1b scheme (nobody makes the correct dimensional data decals in N for the X31 class). It's not easy, but if it were easy it wouldn't be worth my time. I use an Optivisor, good lighting, and a white-painted workbench to make it tolerable.
loathar wrote:What happened to the HO Pennsy layout?? Ya give up on it?
Nope. Just stuck on a research block. I know I need to visit my local historical society and they are giving me access to their secret files, but I have to take off work to go and so far I have not been able to. My engines are getting sound installed, so nothing to run and nothing to build.
The N-scale layout should be simple to complete, but I am planning two scenes that will involve more detail. But it is basically a railfan layout. On one hand I know that as Dave says, size shouldn't matter (where have I heard that before?) and so far I have been able to pull off painting and making my structure look good.
But couplers and mini-decals have scared me a bit. I have before me putting 2 sets of 1/16 BPRR decals on 20 plus coal cars and I can't even imagine cutting them out let alone getting them straight on the cars.
Let me offer some advice you can take or leave, and it may not come off as particularly friendly.
You've posted a lot about your foray into N scale, and that's fine. I'm glad you're interested in N scale trains.
But in order to fully enjoy N scale, you have to stop looking at it as a seperate hobby. I spent 20 years in HO before I switched to N. I never considered myself as an "HO-er." I was a model railroader. I still feel I'm a model railroader. But many folks want to put N scale model railroaders into a box labeled "N scaler" as if it's a seperate hobby. It's not. It's model railroading.
Yes, we kid each other about scale, but in the end there is nothing - I mean nothing - you can do in HO that you can't do in N. That includes kitbashing steam engines, sound, scratchbuilding strctures, and operations.
Yes, Chip, you can operate a model railroad in N scale. In fact, you can operate a lot more railroad in N scale. As was demonstrated in you 10x12 design exercise, in HO you can simulate a sleepy branchline, or a busy terminal. In the same space using N scale, you can simulate miles of mainline running, as well as those branches and terminals. Here's the operations I can run on my modestly sized layout:
This is the main line as it wraps around the paper mill. There is a dedicated mill switcher that shunts about 20-30 cars during a typical operating session.
Here's an overview of the paper mill. The mainline splits into two divisions at the Maryland Junction tower.
There's run-through traffic from the Laurel Valley, my fictional Pennsylvania highlands short line,
There's fast freight headed east to Shippensburg and the connection with the Reading...
There's room for some nice scenery
There's enough staging for (8) 20-car trains...
There's several opportunities for local switching...
There's mine runs,
and coal drags.
And there's a freight yard and engine terminal to keep it all moving.
I like the way N scale fits in my space, and the way it looks doing it.
As for the mechanics of working with N, like any skill, it takes doing to get good at it. I started out scared to death of knuckle couplers, now I'm installing decoders in N scale switchers.
As for the oft cited eyesight issue, I think you'll find you have no trouble seeing N scale equipment as long as you're not looking down your nose at it...
I operated my old N scale layout. The new one I am designing now will also feature ops.
Three railroads, two with passenger ops and all three with freight ops.
The only problem is that no one makes an N scale ten wheeler, which is required to model early 1930's Norfolk Southern. I don't mind scratchbuilding one, but I would need a few of them.
Chuck,
The only multiples I really need to worry about are hoppers, and they tend to move in clumps anyway!
All my cars are weathered to varying dgrees, so my several PRR X29 and X26C boxcars are all visually different despite similar paint schemes.
My hat's off to anyone who operates their model empire like a railroad, no matter what the scale. While I do not model in either N or Nj (1:150 scale) I am planning to incorporate some nine millimeter gauge track on my 1:80 scale layout. Does that make me an honorary N-scaler?
Dave, there's only one weak link in the idea of descriptions/pictures on car cards. What if you own 20 box cars, identical except for the digits in the car number - plus an additional 14 that are identical to each other and almost identical to the first group? I guess you could use one of those high-magnification monoculars that meter readers use to read the electric meter from thirty yards away. Even in 1:80 scale with slightly oversize car numbers, 1.25 meters seems to be an outside limit for the Mark 1 Mod 0L eyeball. (Mod 0L = Mod 0 after Lasik.)
Actually, my car cards have very precise descriptions of the cars they belong to - descriptions expressed in two Katakana characters and the first car number of the class. (This is why, when Washington Mutual started referring to themselves as WaMu, I started referring to them as, "15 ton capacity box car.")
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Dave Vollmer wrote: SpaceMouse wrote: Scaleist?It's more like I want to believe, but...I am giving it a go sort of. Do or do not.There is no try.-Yoda
SpaceMouse wrote: Scaleist?It's more like I want to believe, but...I am giving it a go sort of.
Scaleist?
It's more like I want to believe, but...
I am giving it a go sort of.
Do or do not.
There is no try.
-Yoda
Succeed I will.
SpaceMouse wrote: Can you really do ops in N-scale? <sniup>But the idea of backing those little bitty suckers into a yard with a toothpick and jeweler's glass to build a cut is beyond my comprehension.
Can you really do ops in N-scale?
<sniup>
But the idea of backing those little bitty suckers into a yard with a toothpick and jeweler's glass to build a cut is beyond my comprehension.
Chip, and I mean this kindly, there is still a lot about model railroading that you have not yet personally experienced, large post count notwithstanding.
There are a number of N scale operating layouts, some of which have already been mentioned. I've had the pleasure of operating at Lance Mindheim's once and the overall experience was better than a lot of the HO layouts on which I have operated. It was car card and waybills and we read car numbers. No problem.
Picks actually seem to work better for me on N scale MT couplers than they do on HO KDs. Rerailing does not seem to me to be tougher than with HO.
Reading car numbers can be a challenge. Lots of light helps. On my small N scale switching layout (which is sometimes run in low-light conditions), I've selected the cars so that there is only one of any roadname/color combination. (Thus, three WP cars, but one's silver, one's orange, one's boxcar red). The three rotating switchlists call out road name and color and it works fine. A photo in all its "plywood plains" splendor is below.
Don't be a scaleist, dude. N scale ops may not be for everyone, but it works for a lot of us.
ByronModel RR Blog
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
ChrisNH wrote: ... so I can just wave a wand over a car to get its info. Chris
... so I can just wave a wand over a car to get its info.
Chris
Great thought Chris. I don't see why you couldn't use those tracking devices they use with pets... you know the injected micro-pins they can read with a wand to determine who the owner is of that lost dog. Probably costly but who knows.
I put a description of the car on my car cards...
Another option is putting a small photo on the car card. That eliminates the so-called problem of reading the car number. You can reduce issues with reading reporting marks by using adequate lighting.
I guess I was put off by the tone of the question. You can't seriously think that no one does ops in N scale... do you? Grab your MRP 2007 and read about the N scale Clinch River.
Maybe I misread your post. But it does tell me that the perception of N as a 'roundy-round only scale is still alive and well.
EDIT:
Chip, as long as you can see well enough and don't have the shakes, you can do whatever you want with N scale. I say "who cares what everyone else does?" If nothing else, you can always be a pioneer. But N scale really does have an ops following.
The re-railer I have works great when I need to rerail in tight quarters. Otherwise, after a while of working with n-scale consists, I've found it easy to "feel" the correct orientation of the trucks when setting a car on the rails (as long as there's room to get my big fingers there).
I also agree with Chris on having adequate lighting (I no longer see well for close work unless lighting is much brighter than I needed in the pase), and on having the layout higher--right now my layout is on a shelf above my workbench, and when I move it to the garage to expand it, it will still be up high, and critical areas of track will be within easy reach.
All this aside, I really love n-scale!
SpaceMouse wrote:working with small picks, working with N-scale couplers, re-railing mistakes, not to mention reading car numbers
working with small picks, working with N-scale couplers, re-railing mistakes, not to mention reading car numbers
Card numbers are a pain as I mentioned in my post. Couplers I had no problems with a wooden skewer. Rerailing I always use a re-railing tool.. railing n-scale cars is a pain.
Two things help with the mechanical aspects of using n-scale.. having it up high so that your eyes are close to it.. and having good lighting so you can see the little bits.
I think you are doing the right thing by "trying". You will know quickly enough if the small size hampers your fun.. and there is nothing wrong with that. If my area was 20x26 rather then 10x13 I would probably be doing HO..
I'm not asking anyone to throw up their hands and say "You got me." I guess it just seems beyond my comprehension, but then again so are certain aspects of string theory, and imagining a consciousness outside of time and space.
Still, the idea of older gentlemen working with small picks, working with N-scale couplers, re-railing mistakes, not to mention reading car numbers is hard to fathom. Like I said, I've never seen it done on a practical scale. All I've seen is railfan long train, big scenery, layouts.
It's a bone I've worried on.
ChrisNH wrote:What boggles my mind is that folks have big enough basements to do the ops they do with HO. Seriously, as others have said, the only difference is the scale. You can get an awful lot of railroad in a moderate space with N.. or get a little railroad with a lot of scenery between your destinations.. The only down side I have experienced trying to use a car card system on my 3x5 layout is reading the little numbers on the cars. I would love some system like the inventory control tags used in stores so I can just wave a wand over a car to get its info. Chris
What boggles my mind is that folks have big enough basements to do the ops they do with HO.
Seriously, as others have said, the only difference is the scale. You can get an awful lot of railroad in a moderate space with N.. or get a little railroad with a lot of scenery between your destinations..
The only down side I have experienced trying to use a car card system on my 3x5 layout is reading the little numbers on the cars. I would love some system like the inventory control tags used in stores so I can just wave a wand over a car to get its info.
Not a bad idea... I'd also love to just point the camera on a PDA to any pair of couplers on any rolling stock, touch the screen, and presto! uncoupled!!
"You show me a man with both feet on the ground and I'll show you a man who can't get his pants on." -anonymous
A few years ago I used to attend a weekly OPS session on a large N-scale layout. They used wireless DCC controllers and the card system. They had full length trains and several yards/industries for drop-offs and pick-ups. It was pretty elaborate.
It was my first experince with OPS and I'll confess that I didn't really get into it, but it worked well and they were a good group to work with. I was impressed.