Helping the Younger Generation

[Anonymous]

Well, an old post, but a fitting place for my comments. I have a younger cousin who got an HO Thomas set, and he's coming to see my layout in a few weeks, so I thought I'd provide him with some extra stuff to keep him interested in the hobby. I searched through my drawer of old cars and locos and came up with this train to give to him.

Everything was weathered today, and the loco tested to make sure it runs.

(Before anyone gets upset that I'm giving him "junk" comparitivly speaking, I have a very limited budget, and the odds are he'll stick these in the attic somewhere anyhow.)

I also gave him a few things that might be needed for a layout, a folded-glued paper building, and a small glass jar of sifted scale dirt. I hope he stays in this hobby. 

 

[Bapou]

Well I am 14 years old (almost 15). I would like to say that I have had a lot of help from operateing at the same place as Tony from Tony Train Exchange. Also several of his employees go there. I was going to garage sales looking for train related things and met somone with 2 grandchildren (they were not present at the moment) who love trains so I left my phone # and said when they were in town to call me and they can look at the layout. Well I hope they call, just not to soon since I am re-doing my trackwork from Vermont and changing it to Hoboken. Lots of work ahead . Just my .

[jfugate]

Hmm, interesting thread. Looks like I missed all the debate about whether or not it's our "obligation" to be altruistic. If altruism is not forced, but done out of free will, that's what makes lending a helping hand truly meaningful, if I can put a slightly different spin on Mark's point.

As to helping out my fellow modelers, especially newcomers -- that's an area of particular joy for me since I love to teach. It's also why I bother hanging around forums like this one ... and trying to post things like my forum clinics on here and on my own web site.

Regarding my forum clinics, you can find them here:

Designing for satisfying operation 

Building realistic scenery 

Picking the best DCC system

12 years of using DCC

Operating like the prototype 

Regular op session reports (with photos) 

(Wow, can you believe it? The 12 years of using DCC clinic was started in 2005! That's the one clinic that is getting a bit dated, but the others are still fine.)

One interesting observation I have about this forum is that many of the "better known" seasoned modelers don't seem to be here.  I suspect that's because free time is a precious commodity and many of those modelers get done what they get done because they're not on here debating about whether or not they should be helping out hobby newcomers.

I've been in the hobby 41 years now, and I've done a few things wrong, that's for sure. Like I've told my kids:

Good judgement comes from experience -- and experience comes from bad judgement!

Of course, that bad judgement doesn't have to be your own -- if you're smart, you'll pay attention and learn from the other guy's bad judgement! 

[yankee flyer]

ICRR1964

Good job with the young boy. I have eight grand kids but I have trouble getting time with the older ones. They seem to have all of their time scheduled, with base ball, basket ball etc: Which seems to be the norm now. My two little ones four and six, love to play trains. I am trying to teach them the difference between toy trains and modeling, the older boys enjoy the hobby but, at the present everone seems to want their kids activitys to be organized sports. Where is the time to dream and stretch their imagination? 

sorry about the soap box.

 Yankee Flyer

.   

 

[concretelackey]

I feel that I owe an apoligy to Mark as well since I think I was the first one to cast the stone.

My sincerest regrets...

[marknewton]

No worries, ICRR - a lively exchange of views is what makes the forum enjoyable!

All the best,

Mark.

[ICRR1964]

TA462, you are so right on about them not having interest in MR once they turn 16, not all of them, but some of them. Girls and cars fall into place then, but I have seen boys with their girlfreinds at train shows sometime, so maybe some of them show interest in MR.

As far as my veiws go? Well it was just my thoughts on helping the younger generation, did not think it would turn into a debate.

Mark lets just move on from this, sorry I came across so harsh. I respect your opinion like others, I just may not agree with it though. And your right opinions will differ in the forum, thats what the forum is suppose to do.   

[marknewton]

However, I will help out someone who I feel would truly want to enter this hobby.  I'd help with train problems, painting, and such...

And that's something I'm also willing to do - but I don't want to be told it's something I HAVE to do!

...but not take them under my wing. The problem I see with "mentoring" a young modeler, is that it won't give them a sense of independent thought.

A good point, and one I hadn't considered. I think that's a big problem within the hobby - too many people are unwilling or unable to think for themselves.

...instead it will influence the newcomer to the ways of the teacher.  For example, If the OP is teaching his student more than just train modeling, like maybe how to react in a negative manner when someone has an opposing opinion to his, then why should henbsp;be commended for that?  The way he reacted to a differing opinion is really an eye opener.

Yeah, I thought so!

All the best,

Mark.

[Dave Vollmer]

I'd like to toss my hat into this ring in support of Mark.

Now I actually take my layout to shows and actively engage young people in the hobby.  Moreover I'm brainwashing my two sons into taking up the hobby!

But I understand and respect Mark's position.  Nobody is "obliged" to do anything when they enter a hobby; to suggest otherwise makes it a job.  Model railroading is not Mark's job, and neither is it mine.

I didn't see anything overtly offensive in Mark's first post.  OTOH, several forum members jumped on Mark in response.  A common tactic when one is losing an argument is to shift the focus on the other side's personal character; I believe that's what happened here.

Mark speaks his mind, and we don't always agree, but Mark did not deserve the bashing he got here.

[marknewton]

Alright Mark Im sorry I called you a Jerk about what you said but its not exactly the worst thing I could have called you.

Oh, well, that makes it alright then! LOL!

However, I'll accept your apology in the spirit it's given.

 Look Im all for discussing the hobby in a respectful way but really what is the point of getting together and complaining about it?? Isnt modeling supposed to be fun?? I thought so...

I think it is, but that doesn't blind me to the fact that there are aspects of the hobby that aren't fun, and warrant serious discussion.

 

Anyway lets just get back to modeling. Mark you can think whatever you want about helping people, its not your job but you dont have to say you would basically refuse to help thinking that you should be left alone in your basement to run your trains because this is an individual hobby... Ahh i think part of the fun is meeting new people and socialising with them but thats just me, heyy what do I know Im your arrogant teenager that you refuse to help right??

I don't advocate "refusing to help" anyone. If you read my posts carefully you'll see that I've never adopted that position. So never mind what ICRR thinks or wishes I wrote, I simply don't agree with the widely held view that as an experienced modeller I'm obliged to help those starting out in the hobby. I do help people, but I do so at my discretion.

As for being solitary, I spend a lot of my working day training, teaching and mentoring new employees. The last thing I want to do is train, teach or mentor anyone in my hobby time, when I'm trying to relax.

You don't come across as particularly arrogant - I'd say you were just a typical teenager. At least you're articulate enough to express an opinion and defend your position.

All the best,

Mark.

[jasperofzeal]

I was going to stay out of it, but what the heck....

Mark, what can I say, you were right on when it came to breaking down the OP's comments on your thoughts clashing with his.  I agree with you in saying that it's not our "job" to mentor or seek out young ones to nurture and bring them into this hobby.

However, I will help out someone who I feel would truly want to enter this hobby.  I'd help with train problems, painting, and such but not take them under my wing.  The problem I see with "mentoring" a young modeler, is that it won't give them a sense of independent thought, instead it will influence the newcomer to the ways of the teacher.  For example, If the OP is teaching his student more than just train modeling, like maybe how to react in a negative manner when someone has an opposing opinion to his, then why should he be commended for that?  The way he reacted to a differing opinion is really an eye opener.

BTW, sure I could have PM'ed this, but what would be the fun in doing that?

[trainfreek92]

Alright Mark Im sorry I called you a Jerk about what you said but its not exactly the worst thing I could have called you.

 Look Im all for discussing the hobby in a respectful way but really what is the point of getting together and complaining about it?? Isnt modeling supposed to be fun?? I thought so...

 

Anyway lets just get back to modeling. Mark you can think whatever you want about helping people, its not your job but you dont have to say you would basically refuse to help thinking that you should be left alone in your basement to run your trains because this is an individual hobby... Ahh i think part of the fun is meeting new people and socialising with them but thats just me, heyy what do I know Im your arrogant teenager that you refuse to help right??

 enough negatives, ICRR thanxs for helping out to keep the hobby growing and best of luck to you and your freind!

[marknewton]

Mark, I have not been an active member of the forum for a while now but just reading this thread it seems pretty clear your a negative jerk.

LOL! You must be one of those well-mannered, respectful young people ICRR keeps referring to...

If your not going to be positive about keeping the hobby alive then shut up no one really wants to hear it.

You're neither the forum owner or a moderator. You don't get to set rules about what may be discussed, or sanction those whom you don't agree with.

There's no requirement for posts to be only " positive about keeping the hobby alive".
Adults are capable of discussing the negative aspects of the hobby without resorting to name-calling.
That's something you'll discover as you mature.

Its people like you that always ruin threads and get them locked....

You reckon? From what I've seen it's children who use terms like "jerk" that cause threads to be locked.

[Anonymous]

Uh oh. Here comes a big kaboom......

I don't think it's "required" to help younger model railroaders, although I will always help if an oppertunity exists. I am all for helping younger model railroaders, I will go out of my way to help!

Let's just stop the name calling, OK? 

[trainfreek92]

If it helps, and I'm not sure at this point it will, I really appreciate all the MR experience that this forum puts together on a minute by minute basis.  I'm no kid (36 years young).  But I'm just jumping into this hobby with my 5 year old.  My LHS is 20 miles away and not really geared toward MR, so I don't get much help there.  I've built plastic and wood models since I was 5, but MR is not the same.  So this forum is really what I have along with books.  But you cannot ask a question and get an answer from a book.  I find ths forum invaluable to learn the ins-and-outs of this hobby.

Thank you all that have already helped me along so far, and an early thanks to you that will help me in the future!

 

SparkyJay, idk what LHS you go to but there is a good one about 30 minutes away from you in Leominster Ma that has a good selection of Ho and N scale trains and the owner will order you anything you want from Walthers.

 

Anyway thanxs for helping out the kids with MR guys, I am 15 and havent really done any modeling in a while ive kinda had other things to do but Ive not lost my love for trains and hope to have a real nice layout one day.

 

Mark, I have not been an active member of the forum for a while now but just reading this thread it seems pretty clear your a negative jerk. If your not going to be positive about keeping the hobby alive then shut up no one really wants to hear it. Its people like you that always ruin threads and get them locked....

[ICRR1964]

By no means Mark, your are free to express your opinion here! But in short sir, I dont know you as a person, and am glad of it. As far as getting a pat on the back for myself as you think or choose to, thats not what I was looking for.

Their you had your debate, and mission accomplished Mark. Us lower thinking people should back away, no problem. I am going to put my efforts towards the hobby and not have this debate with you.

I will consult you first if I ever want to start another thread though. So their you go then, you win! Good job, and congrats!

 

[marknewton]

Well Mark Maybe instead of scanning this forum and looking for post to bash, you could go talk to a young person and learn some manners.

What do you regard as "bashing"? My politely expressing an opinion that differs from yours? I scan the forum looking for threads that have interesting topics, nothing more. I find this thread interesting, as it promotes a particular view of the hobby I've often encountered, but have never understood or agreed with. I thought that you might expand on that view, and to offer an explanation as to why you believe it is our "job" to teach young people - to help me understand that view. You could do that, rather than dismiss me as you've done. That would be more in keeping with your expressed aim of educating others about the hobby.

You seem to equate "manners" with not questioning the consensus view on a particular topic, or at least not disagreeing with you. That's not what I understand manners to mean.

You seem to think everyone is below your thinking and learning

You make that statement on what basis? The forum exists for the express purpose of exchanging information and ideas. There are specific areas where I have knowledge and experience, which I , like others, share with other forum members, as intended. There are times when those with less knowledge and experience in those areas make statements that are incorrect or misleading, so, like others, I correct them. Again, part of the forum process.

What would you have me do instead - pretend ignorance to avoid upsetting your apparently delicate sensibilities?

If that's the case, it makes me question your commitment to educating other modellers. Or are you more committed to maintaining the status quo than expanding and improving the knowledge available to forum members?

I don't think "everyone is below (my) thinking and learning", but at the same time I have no problem acknowledging that I have more knowledge and experience than many of the forum members. Nor do I have any problem acknowledging that there are forum members far more knowledgable and experienced than me. I reckon that's something you might need to think about, though.

This is why a year ago I walked away from this forum, because of people like you and your thinking. I think everyone here gets really tired of watching you badger others, and cut their throats because it makes you feel good about yourself. People have good question and ideas in this forum and if the moderators seem to think that its ok for people like you to run threw the forum and bash others for your own type of little game your playing. Well that's fine then, but you are a very sad person.

You should never make generalisations about someone you don't know at all, based only on what you read in the forum. I'm a very happy person.

If I were to do the same, I'd sugggest that you're a very angry person, to react this badly to a mere difference of opinion...

I am sure this whole post and talk will be deleted very soon, so your mission will be complete then, you should be proud of yourself, don't forget to give yourself a pat on the back to! Copy and paste seem to be an easy way for you to take a post apart.

I use the same software tools as you and every other forum member. What other method do you suggest I use to respond to your post? Rambling stream of consciousness?

I like that though "universally applicable", so in otherwords if it does not apply to you, it should never apply to anyone else.

Not my words at all. You're the one who stated unequivocally that our "job" as modellers is to teach the younger generation. In other words, "it applies to me, so it should apply to everyone else."

IThis topic was posted for other readers to see and maybe spark them into giving a bit of their time to young people...

So you say. I can't help thinking part of your reason for posting this topic was to attract a few pats on the back for yourself, hence your hostile response to my opinion. But I'll give the benefit of the doubt on that one. Giving time to young modellers is commendable, but the idea that we are all obliged to do so is not.

We are talking about MR, so take your opinion down the hall to the next room and you can debate with yourself, we will send down the young people to "maybe" help you learn some manners and respect.

Manners and respect should stretch both ways. Your post is ill-mannered, and not respectful of my entitlement to express an opinion, so I'll pass on your offer to send the "young people" down.

MODERATORS, feel free to delete this whole topic if you feel that it has know worth in this forum.

So you want to give me a tongue-lashing, but you want the thread deleted before I get the chance to reply? That says a lot about your tolerance of other ideas, other opinions.

Mark.

[secondhandmodeler]

 Please don't rain on somebodies parade if they chose to invest in someone else's life.

That's not the case at all. I even said I thought it was great if someone does choose to do this, and so did Mark.

But your post--and others--suggest that by NOT doing so, we're doing something wrong or bad. So don't rain on OUR parade if we choose not to actively recruit the younger generation.

I went back and read the thread again.  You are right, it is not a modeler's 'Job' to help people.  I originally read the thread yesterday and must have missed that part.  I do still give kudos to the OP for his giving of time.  Hopefully more of us could follow suit some day.

[Midnight Railroader]

 Please don't rain on somebodies parade if they chose to invest in someone else's life.

That's not the case at all. I even said I thought it was great if someone does choose to do this, and so did Mark.

But your post--and others--suggest that by NOT doing so, we're doing something wrong or bad. So don't rain on OUR parade if we choose not to actively recruit the younger generation.

[secondhandmodeler]

 It's also not anyone's job to smile and say hello in the street.  Nobody signed an agreement to hold the door for little old ladies.  Volunteering at the local soup kitchen is not required.  People do not 'have' to do these types of things. However, it is things like this that make the world a little nicer place to live.  I hear all the groaning on this forum about how the hobby is dieing.  If trying to help the younger generation 'saves' the hobby, then I'm all for it.  Nobody said you have to climb out of your hole and find a youngster to help.  If a situation arises where you may help encourage a fellow modeler, think twice before you turn away, that's all.  Nobody 'has' to help others.  If you choose not to then that's your prerogative.  Please don't rain on somebodies parade if they chose to invest in someone else's life.

[Midnight Railroader]

This topic was posted for other readers to see and maybe spark them into giving a bit of their time to young people, they are part of the future of MR.

As much as it pains me to admit it, I agree with Mark.

It is not any model railroader's "responsibility" or 'job," as one poster put it, to pass on their wisdom, teach kids, or whatever.

There's nothing wrong with doing so; in fact, I think it is great. But it is by NO means an obligation.

No one signed an agreement (or even made a tacit one) to spend their time showing youngsters the hobby when they began building model railroads. It's a hobby. If I don't choose to spend my time promoting it, I am doing nothing wrong.

[sparkyjay31]

If it helps, and I'm not sure at this point it will, I really appreciate all the MR experience that this forum puts together on a minute by minute basis.  I'm no kid (36 years young).  But I'm just jumping into this hobby with my 5 year old.  My LHS is 20 miles away and not really geared toward MR, so I don't get much help there.  I've built plastic and wood models since I was 5, but MR is not the same.  So this forum is really what I have along with books.  But you cannot ask a question and get an answer from a book.  I find ths forum invaluable to learn the ins-and-outs of this hobby.

Thank you all that have already helped me along so far, and an early thanks to you that will help me in the future!

[ICRR1964]

Well Mark Maybe instead of scanning this forum and looking for post to bash, you could go talk to a young person and learn some manners. You seem to think everyone is below your thinking and learning.

This is why a year ago I walked away from this forum, because of people like you and your thinking. I think everyone here gets really tired of watching you badger others, and cut their throats because it makes you feel good about yourself. People have good question and ideas in this forum and if the moderators seem to think that its ok for people like you to run threw the forum and bash others for your own type of little game your playing. Well that's fine then, but you are a very sad person.

I am sure this whole post and talk will be deleted very soon, so your mission will be complete then, you should be proud of yourself, don't forget to give yourself a pat on the back to! Copy and paste seem to be an easy way for you to take a post apart. I like that though "universally applicable", so in otherwords if it does not apply to you, it should never apply to anyone else.

This topic was posted for other readers to see and maybe spark them into giving a bit of their time to young people, they are part of the future of MR. We are talking about MR, so take your opinion down the hall to the next room and you can debate with yourself, we will send down the young people to "maybe" help you learn some manners and respect. 

 

PS,

MODERATORS, feel free to delete this whole topic if you feel that it has know worth in this forum. Sorry for getting upset in this post also.

ICRR1964

[marknewton]

No problem Mark, maybe we all should use your advice...

I didn't offer any advice. I expressed an opinion that differed from yours.

and there are very few modelers where I live. I think we stand at 3 of us now, no club, just allot of young people showing some interest. I won't turn my back on them if they are showing interest.

And good on you for that. FWIW, I don't advocate turning away anyone who shows an interest, but you made a comment based on your personal philosophy, which is not universally applicable.

My circumstances are that I know no young people who show an interest in railway modelling. And I seriously doubt that there's any advice based on my own knowledge or experience I could offer a ten year-old that would be helpful.

All the best,

Mark.

[ICRR1964]

Tyler,

No you are not, your an eager young man who knows what he wants, we need more MR's like you out there in the world. When I was your age there were tons of young people out there in the hobby. I've been in the hobby for 30 some plus years, and still enjoy it very much.

Even if cars and girls get in the way later down the road for you. I know you will come back to it, I did!

[Anonymous]

Yeah, I'm not sure if you'd count me as a "kid" (I'm almost 14) but I'm completely obsessed!

[ICRR1964]

No problem Mark, maybe we all should use your advice, and there are very few modelers where I live. I think we stand at 3 of us now, no club, just allot of young people showing some interest. I won't turn my back on them if they are showing interest.

The young boy asked me about train shows this afternoon after school, and I told him to save up some money and we will go this spring. He said he had never been to one, so this will be fun. Bet he will want everything he see's, I know I still do.

Thanks for the comments guys, think its great some kids are still interested in the MR hobby.

ICRR1964 

[marknewton]

"As far as this being a solitary hobby? I do not agree, beside if it was solitary to someone out their, why would they be in the forum?"

There are no other modellers in town 'coz I live in the middle of nowhere, I don't belong to a club, and when I run trains I do so on my own - that's solitary by my definition.

The forum is about the only means I have of communicating with like-minded modellers, but it's still a solitary activity. Much as I'd like to, I can't invite TomikawaTT over to run some trains whenever I feel like it. If where you live there are other modellers, then good on you - but don't assume everyone else on this forum can round up a dozen mates for op sessions.

Mark.

[marknewton]

So if a kid came up to you and asked a legit question on modeling trains you would feel no need to respond?

It's entirely hypothetical - but it would depend on the question. It may not be something I could satisfactorily answer. If that were the case then no, I would not respond, other than to suggest where a proper answer might be obtained.

Mark.