The most obvious gaping hole in the lineup of readily-available HO scale steam locomotives is the lack of a good-looking, good-running late-19th century 4-4-0.
The Bachmann Spectrum 4-4-0 and the recent sound-equipped Roundhouse/Athearn 4-4-0 are nice products, but they're really models of 1900- and 1890-era locomotives, and cannot easily be backdated through kitbashing due to chassis design, shape/size of boiler, etc. The old metal Mantua/Tyco "General" can be a basis for Civil War-era kitbashes, but lacks modern detailing and electronic options. The Bachmann "old west" 4-4-0s are not up to modern modelers' standards in terms of operation or appearance. The Rivarossi/IHC 4-4-0s, although not bad for their time and reasonably accurate for a generic 1870-1880 period locomotive, are not up to the standards of modern production as exemplified by Spectrum, Proto2000, Broadway Limited, et al.
As several people have noted, small steam like this is far more versatile and easily accomodated on compact layouts than the monstrous Big Boys and Triplexes of which we currently have a (fortunate) abundance. 4-4-0s of very similar pattern were ubiquitous on railroads throughout the country from the 1870s until the 1920s, and lingered on in shortline and branchline service up until the very end of steam in some locations. The same basic model could reasonably accurately portray literally thousands of prototypes, especially if the manufacturer made allowance for easy application of different domes, stacks, cabs, headlights, etc., to a common basic chassis and boiler.
Bradley A. Scott
Since I am a LIRR fan a PRR/LIRR H8/H9?10 as well as a G5s. These would be huge sellers.
Ray Jensen
selector wrote:I guess if the Duplex and the Niagaras, and many of the other Northerns, could have a whistle and a horn, it can't be all bad to have an engine sound like something else...must confuse some of the railfans waiting at a photo op.
I guess if the Duplex and the Niagaras, and many of the other Northerns, could have a whistle and a horn, it can't be all bad to have an engine sound like something else...must confuse some of the railfans waiting at a photo op.
Darth Santa Fe wrote:...I'd like to see as an affordable model is the PRR S1 6-4-4-6 Duplex...(it) may have even achieved speeds faster than the Mallard.
CNCharlie wrote: Selector posted regarding CP2816's whistle like a pig's squeal. I can advise that CP 2816 actually has 2 whistles. The one in the video clip is located beside the stack and isn't a CP whistle. It is off of a US loco and was added in Steamtown before the engine was rebuilt here. The original whistle is in front of the cab and apparently came off of a Royal Hudson. It has a far deeper sound. I heard both of them many times on Sept.17/07 as I followed CP2816 for over 60 miles north from Thief River Falls, MN. The highway is only 50-100 feet from the Soo line tracks. I was the only car following it and drove for many miles with the window down listening to it at every miles grade crossing. They seemed to use the shrill whistle for major crossings but for the rural mile roads they used the original whistle. I have about 15 minutes of video but haven't put it on YouTube. I have no idea how to do it.
Selector posted regarding CP2816's whistle like a pig's squeal.
I can advise that CP 2816 actually has 2 whistles. The one in the video clip is located beside the stack and isn't a CP whistle. It is off of a US loco and was added in Steamtown before the engine was rebuilt here. The original whistle is in front of the cab and apparently came off of a Royal Hudson. It has a far deeper sound.
I heard both of them many times on Sept.17/07 as I followed CP2816 for over 60 miles north from Thief River Falls, MN. The highway is only 50-100 feet from the Soo line tracks. I was the only car following it and drove for many miles with the window down listening to it at every miles grade crossing. They seemed to use the shrill whistle for major crossings but for the rural mile roads they used the original whistle. I have about 15 minutes of video but haven't put it on YouTube. I have no idea how to do it.
Funny you should mention it! In the videos where it's doubling with MILW 261, I can hear a whistle that led me to think that the second engine (261) was also blowing signals....which would be odd. So you have cleared that up for me nicely...thanks. It all makes sense now.
In any event, I like the CPR Hudson whistle...it too is distinctive, but the pig-squeel one is the one that sounds perfect for my inexperienced, but appreciative, ears.
I guess if the Duplex and the Niagaras, and many of the other Northerns, could have a whistle and a horn, it can't be all bad to have an engine sound like something else...must confuse some od the railfans waiting at a photo op.
rogertra wrote: We need a "modern" 4-6-0 with steel cab, plain sandbox and steam dome, piston valves and "modern" appliances. The Bachmann Spectrum is too old to really be of use for a mid 1950s class one. We need a locomotive that is reasonably generic in looks.We need a "modern" 2-6-0 with steel cab, plain sandbox and steam dome, piston valves and "modern" appliances. The IHC cannot 2-6-0 run on code 70 rail, is not too well detailed and is thus not suitable unless upgraded with details that meet today's requirements. We need a loco to be of use for a mid 1950s class one. We need a locomotive that is reasonably generic in looks.We need a "modern" light 2-8-0 with steel cab, plain sandbox and steam dome, piston valves and "modern" appliances. The Bachmann Spectrum is a fine model but is of a heavy 2-8-0, we need something lighter. We need a locomotive that is reasonably generic in looks.We need a "modern" 2-8-2 with steel cab, plain sandbox and steam dome, piston valves and "modern" appliances. Something that is not a USRA 2-8-2. Bachmann could easily convert the 2-8-0 into a 2-8-2 by adding another section into the boiler to make it longer for a 2-8-2 and adding a trailing truck from their 4-8-2. We need a locomotive that is reasonably generic in looks.We need a "modern" 4-6-2 with steel cab, plain sandbox and steam dome, piston valves and "modern" appliances. Something that is not a USRA 4-6-2. We need a locomotive that is reasonably generic in looks.
We need a "modern" 4-6-0 with steel cab, plain sandbox and steam dome, piston valves and "modern" appliances. The Bachmann Spectrum is too old to really be of use for a mid 1950s class one. We need a locomotive that is reasonably generic in looks.
We need a "modern" 2-6-0 with steel cab, plain sandbox and steam dome, piston valves and "modern" appliances. The IHC cannot 2-6-0 run on code 70 rail, is not too well detailed and is thus not suitable unless upgraded with details that meet today's requirements. We need a loco to be of use for a mid 1950s class one. We need a locomotive that is reasonably generic in looks.
We need a "modern" light 2-8-0 with steel cab, plain sandbox and steam dome, piston valves and "modern" appliances. The Bachmann Spectrum is a fine model but is of a heavy 2-8-0, we need something lighter. We need a locomotive that is reasonably generic in looks.
We need a "modern" 2-8-2 with steel cab, plain sandbox and steam dome, piston valves and "modern" appliances. Something that is not a USRA 2-8-2. Bachmann could easily convert the 2-8-0 into a 2-8-2 by adding another section into the boiler to make it longer for a 2-8-2 and adding a trailing truck from their 4-8-2. We need a locomotive that is reasonably generic in looks.
We need a "modern" 4-6-2 with steel cab, plain sandbox and steam dome, piston valves and "modern" appliances. Something that is not a USRA 4-6-2. We need a locomotive that is reasonably generic in looks.
Hi Roger!
You know, you just described the Harriman-standard line of engines. Right now, the only one on the market is a Harriman heavy 2-8-0, and that's the Bachmann engine. It'd be nice if someone would come out with Harriman engines, since it'd give all of a break from the now-trite USRA designs. And if someone does step up to the plate and comes up with the full line of Harrimans, we'd get a decent 4-4-2 also!
Ray Breyer
Modeling the NKP's Peoria Division, circa 1943
Cheers
Roger T.
Home of the late Great Eastern Railway see: - http://www.greateasternrailway.com
For more photos of the late GER see: - http://s94.photobucket.com/albums/l99/rogertra/Great_Eastern/
F-12's are a great looking locos. Stunning aesthetically, the best looking 10 wheelers produced!
grayfox1119 wrote: I want to see B&A, and B&M Pacifics. NYC ran their Pacifics on the former B&A main line from Boston to NY after the 20's, but all the B&A Pacifics were still being used right up into the late 40's. And on all the B&M rail lines, Pacifics ran all over New England....so where are they Atlas, Athearn, P2K, BLI, etc.????Also, the sports model Berkshires that ran on the former B&A/NYC in New England, where are they ?
I want to see B&A, and B&M Pacifics. NYC ran their Pacifics on the former B&A main line from Boston to NY after the 20's, but all the B&A Pacifics were still being used right up into the late 40's. And on all the B&M rail lines, Pacifics ran all over New England....so where are they Atlas, Athearn, P2K, BLI, etc.????
Also, the sports model Berkshires that ran on the former B&A/NYC in New England, where are they ?
How about the original A1-a and A1-b Berks? The A1-c's are nice but the originals were not only the first superpower locomotives they were the epitome of B&A steam.
B&A ran a great many dual purpose Pacifics, K-3's and K-14's. After the J-2 Hudsons were produced all the K-6A and K-6B Pacifics were transferred to the P&LE.
As a Rutland fan I would also like to see a NYC F12e. Alco made similar locos for several other RRs (CNW, MEC, B&M . . .).
The large locos that have been produced are too large to run on many layouts. I have several Spectrum 4-4-0s, 4-6-0s and 2-8-0s. They run great on my RR. I guess the brass collector routine really doesn't apply to the plastic loco operator. My brass mainly sits on the shelf while my plastic locos see a lot of operation.
CAZEPHYR wrote: True this engine was scrapped, but so was his 4-6-2. Both were scrapped because no rent was paid and the railroad collected the sum in scrap iron whe he failed to move them. There was a notice given several times and railfans did not respond to help with the cost of saving these engines. It could happen again today for the individuals who try and run their locomotives on mainlines and run out of money. Do you know if Dick got anything back in return after the court action???
True this engine was scrapped, but so was his 4-6-2. Both were scrapped because no rent was paid and the railroad collected the sum in scrap iron whe he failed to move them.
There was a notice given several times and railfans did not respond to help with the cost of saving these engines. It could happen again today for the individuals who try and run their locomotives on mainlines and run out of money.
Do you know if Dick got anything back in return after the court action???
I used to know someone who had worked with Jensen. According to my source, workmen had started to scrap the 4-6-2 before Jensen was notified that it had to be moved. When Jensen inspected the engine before he prepared to have it moved, he found that a "test cut" had been made in the boiler, which would have been very, very expensive to repair. Jensen refused to remove the engine until the agency responsible admitted its mistake, and made proper compensation. The agency refused, and the engine was scrapped, the scappers ordered to "cut it into small pieces that could not be salvaged." (However, I am told that some pieces were in fact salvaged, and even found their way into some restored engines.)
Apparently, the engine could have been moved only a short distance away so that it wouldn't interfere with the work that needed to be done. During the court case, the defendants made the claim that because the side rods were disconnected, there was a danger that the locomotive's drive wheels would distort "to an egg shape," and this is why they didn't simply move the engine.
If memory serves me, Jensen died while the case was in court, and his estate received some compensation.
To me, the saddest thing about all this is that the media made it look like Jensen was a man of questionable sanity, when, according to my source, he was acting reasonably and deliberately given the circumstances.
Dan
CNW R-1 4-6-0
MILW S-3 4-8-4
Soo L-1 2-8-2
All of these are extant, have run lately. All have been through Waukesha within the past 10-15 years, the Soo engine in late June-early July. MILW 4-6-0 would be nice as well.
Mike WSOR engineer | HO scale since 1988 | Visit our club www.WCGandyDancers.com
GTW-TY wrote:As a newbie with a couple of pennies in my pocket. I've seen pictures of a streamlined GTW 6410 4-8-4 U-4-b. I don't know if its ever been produced in scale, but, I wouldn't mind seeing one of these beauties produced. I think, but I'm not sure, only 5 of them were built. I would even settle for a few more Locomotives with all weather cabs.
As a newbie with a couple of pennies in my pocket. I've seen pictures of a streamlined GTW 6410 4-8-4 U-4-b. I don't know if its ever been produced in scale, but, I wouldn't mind seeing one of these beauties produced. I think, but I'm not sure, only 5 of them were built.
I would even settle for a few more Locomotives with all weather cabs.
That GTW U-4b has been imported at least two times. First around 1980 from NICKEL PLATE PRODUCTS, second less than a decade ago from FOMRAS.
orsonroy wrote:In the current non-brass steam engine model cycle, I'm personally surprised that Bachmann is still the ONLY manufacturer that's supporting small steam. BLI, Athearn, and P2K are still cranking out the behemoths that no one can really use (on small layouts, which overwhelm medium and large ones). Even IHC, which has the second largest number of small engines available, hasn't released one in a dog's age.
In the current non-brass steam engine model cycle, I'm personally surprised that Bachmann is still the ONLY manufacturer that's supporting small steam. BLI, Athearn, and P2K are still cranking out the behemoths that no one can really use (on small layouts, which overwhelm medium and large ones). Even IHC, which has the second largest number of small engines available, hasn't released one in a dog's age.
Gary
I talked to Dick in Ft. Worth when he was preparing the 610 for the Freedom Train duty.
Dick brought loco pieces into the courtroom.....
SteamFreak wrote: Heartland Division CBQ wrote:Another steam fan engine was CB&Q #5632, a 4-8-4 was eventually scrapped, but It would also be a good model.Garry,I love this shot of 5632 from an early 60's railfan excursion. A genuine case of life imitating art. It's a crime she was cut up.
Heartland Division CBQ wrote:Another steam fan engine was CB&Q #5632, a 4-8-4 was eventually scrapped, but It would also be a good model.
Garry,
I love this shot of 5632 from an early 60's railfan excursion. A genuine case of life imitating art. It's a crime she was cut up.
Dick Jenson had it sitting in a yard area in Chicago, the yard needed it moved, I think Dick said it wasn't ready for moving, so the railroad scrapped it on the spot.
a prototype not to paint your brass locos, wow
Nelson
Ex-Southern 385 Being Hoisted
_________________________________________________________________
Cazephyr--
Count me in as a 4960 fan--I've got an old LMB brass model of it, and it's a very distinctive, quite handsome little Mike. Mine runs like a little Swiss watch, but it would be nice to see it available in plastic for CB&Q fans--and there are quite a few out there, I think. The Burlington always had a good-looking steam roster IMO, and it would be nice to see some of them made that were affordable.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
The 5633, 5629, 5631 and 5614 are four of the CB&Q 4-8-4's still on display. It would be a great model and the real ones are out there to get detail correct. I got to see several of the Q's in action during the 1955 steam era and the 4960 on a fan trip in 1960 and watched it again at the Grand Canyon Railroad a few years ago. I would probably purchase both versions of the 4960 just to have them.
The 6313 was always a favorite of mine and was in the Centrailia Illinois roundhouse very late in the steam era under house steam. I would like to see the 2-10-4 made also.
.
CB&Q's #4960 was used by the Q for steam fan trips in the 1960's. Ultimately, the locomotive became the property of the Grand Canyon Railroad for tourist train service. Originally a common 2-8-2 for freight service, it would be a good model.
Another steam fan engine was CB&Q #5632, a 4-8-4 was eventually scrapped, but It would also be a good model.
GARRY
HEARTLAND DIVISION, CB&Q RR
EVERYWHERE LOST; WE HUSTLE OUR CABOOSE FOR YOU
exPalaceDog wrote: The omission that amazes the Old Dog is a 0-4-0T "fireless" steamer. Ideal for areas like oil refineries. If the Old Dog remembers correctly, one still exists at the RR museum in Northeast, Pa. Just make new superstructure for an existing 0-4-0 frame.
The omission that amazes the Old Dog is a 0-4-0T "fireless" steamer. Ideal for areas like oil refineries. If the Old Dog remembers correctly, one still exists at the RR museum in Northeast, Pa. Just make new superstructure for an existing 0-4-0 frame.
Old Dog
I looked at a Porter in NW Montana, it was (so I'm told) used at he RR tie mill on the north side of Flathead Lake. JJ Hill started this mill to supply ties to the GN.
doctorwayne wrote: Tom, you're certainly right about the Big Boy, although part of its cachet is due to its "biggest" tag. It is a handsome loco, though, as are the ones suggested. I think that some of the popularity of some of these locos can be attributed to the fact that there are still examples extant, and it would probably be good for the hobby to see any or all of them produced. . Wayne
Tom, you're certainly right about the Big Boy, although part of its cachet is due to its "biggest" tag. It is a handsome loco, though, as are the ones suggested. I think that some of the popularity of some of these locos can be attributed to the fact that there are still examples extant, and it would probably be good for the hobby to see any or all of them produced. .
Wayne
There are three of the DM&IR 2-8-8-4's on display and they are impresive also. They would make a great model and the Brass ones have always sold well.
The Greenbriar is a natural also and would sell very well. The Northern Pacific A3, A4 and A5 class 4-8-4 would be of great interest to me and I believe this is a model that is long due to the plastic model world.
We keep asking and maybe someone will listen some day.
dinwitty wrote:I think the Lima built 2-8-4's have been done a lot, whats not been made in the plastic arena is the ALCO builts, and that can easily be done like the LL versions with interchangeable parts.W&LE had them, as did C&NW and other lines. Maybe not as sleek, but solid workhorses for the lines they were on.
I think the Lima built 2-8-4's have been done a lot, whats not been made in the plastic arena is the ALCO builts, and that can easily be done like the LL versions with interchangeable parts.
W&LE had them, as did C&NW and other lines. Maybe not as sleek, but solid workhorses for the lines they were on.
Please remember that the first 15 NKP Berkshires were made by Alco and 70 of the 90 C&O Kanawha's were made by Alco.
As an aside the first brass Kanawha's that were made were based on a Alco picture on one side and the Lima version on the other. Each side was accurate down to the Alco builders plate on one side and Lima builders plate on the other.
Rick
Rule 1: This is my railroad.
Rule 2: I make the rules.
Rule 3: Illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices is always welcome, but in the event of visitor-perceived anacronisms, detail descrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1!