"Just Get it Done!'

[Anonymous]

I'm finding it stranger and stranger that so many people on this forum are lamenting the fact that ready-to-run stuff is supplanting kits and the like.

The reason it's strange is that there have to be an equal number of posters saying things that amount to, "What's the fastest way to..." or "I don't want to mess with all the work that goes with...." or "I don't have time to...."

If people are going to say they want the easiest possible way to lay track/run trains/build scenery, then it's no surprise that the manufacturers are going to give them exactly that.

[Big_Boy_4005]

That's an interesting observation, and I agree. Here's some more food for thought. There are a lot of different skills needed to build a MODEL RAILROAD. Most people can't be an expert at every aspect needed to COMPLETE the task. Everyone's taste and skills are different. The NMRA has the Master Model Railroader program for anyone who wants to try to become accomplished in a number of catagories. I think there are 11 on the list and a person needs to complete 8 to achieve the title MMR. For all the people who are in this hobby, only a select few have ever earned this title.

I have been in this hobby for over 30 years , and have never scratch or even kit built a car or locomotive, that's just not how I want to spend my time.

[Anonymous]

you are right.

[Anonymous]

Over time the hobby has changed due to improved techniques, materials, and construction of just about everything in the hobby. When people first got interested in the hobby, almost everything had to be scratch built. From batteries running engines to hand laying everything, what have you. Most layouts were never "finished."

Many today want a "finished" layout so they can move on to operations. Operations in the early days was barely a consideration; today there are those whose main interest is operations.

Then there is the great in between who want a little of both, scratch building and ready to run. I myself would be happy if my layout were further along in its completion. I would rather be running trains.

[Roadtrp]

I also want to 'get it done'. My primary objective is also to be running trains. Right now it's been less than a month since I received my first equipment. I've got a pretty decent track layout, 4 built-up buildings, a pre-fab tunnel and a dandy 'value pack' of deciduous trees from Woodland Scenics.

The trees were nice. They made my pre-fab tunnel look decent enough that I don't gag when I look at it. [;)]

Right now I don't have much time. I am at the peak of my career and typically spend 45-50 hours per week at work, as does my wife. My weekends are spent doing yard-work, helping my wife clean the house, and about once a month making a 6-hour round trip twice during a weekend to bring our daughter home from and then back to college. I just plain don't have time for the kit or scratch built stuff.

But I will hopefully retire in 8 years (or for sure in 11 years) and THEN I will have time to approach the hobby like I would really like to. Then I may well toss 75% of the inexpensive RTR and built-up stuff that I have accumulated. But in the meantime, it has served me well. It has let me act on my great love of trains, and given me a vision of what might be possible in the future. When I run my trains around my present layout I don't see what exists right now. I see what I dream will exist 15 years from now.

Please don't take my dreams from me just because I don't have time to pursue them right now.
[:)]

[joecool1212]

I've been in this hobby since I was 8. Im on my third layout . First 2 were never finished with scenery, never mind other stuff. For the first time I have changed couplers to KDS. Installed better wheels and trucks on some stuff and even remotered 2 engines. I want to get involved with weathering and scenery this time around. But it took me 30 years to get here and Ive only assembeled blue box kits never kitbashed or scratched built anything. I guess it took that long to get up confidence level. I like RTR stuff and it is'nt bad. If I started with all RTR stuff I might have had time to move on faster. Although Might not have had as much money left. Joe

[Big_Boy_4005]

If you stop and think about it, this could be viewed as a sad comment on today's society.

Instant gratification has run rampant, everything has to be fast or faster. We don't have the time to travel by train any more, the airlines are too slow. We communicate at the speed of light, and anything less is unacceptable. Its no longer about getting there, its about being there.

We used to think that all of these modern conveniences would save time so that we would have more time to do the things we enjoy. What happened to all the time we saved? It certainly isn't earning interest.

Have we taken technology too far, or is our definition of model railroading out dated?

I'm not trying to change my position, but rather trying to figure out what happened, and understand how and why this hobby got to where it is today.

[Roadtrp]

Nevermind... [:)]

[Anonymous]

OK there were no on-line forums back then but I have heard these comments before, the first time was in the early '50's. It was some grizzled old fart, he had to be almost 40. His layout was most of the top floor of his house and used a lot of real British Rail equipment for dispatching and com. I later met his Dad who informed us that his son had it easy with all the modern RTR stuff...haha.

Personally I like to run trains, once I have something, anything running, I will work on the layout. Never tried it any other way.

[Anonymous]

Okay, I'll be the weird one. I've found more recently in the past five years or so that the fun part for me is the building, painting, Masking, sanding & the rigamaroll that goes along with most hobbies(R/C, Slot Car, Trains, Static Models). I am just starting in HO after being a O collector for 25+ years. I am sitting here pieceing together my first engine that I got for a late holiday present, putting on a Grab Iron now, & finding this great fun. I suppose I get this from my uncle who built a North Gap Railroad (alot Scratch built). It won't be as fun as running on my completed layout (which is still in think Stage)but I will always need something to paint or build or weather. I went to my local hobby shop to inquire about kinds/brands of track & the first piece of track they showed me is this new easy track/ fast snap together stuff. Yuck!! Well I guess I'm just doomed like the dodo & the Edsel, even though I'm just turning 30.

[Jetrock]

THE JOURNEY IS THE REWARD.

That's my mantra of model railroading. I'm sure some folks would like to just go to the hobby shop, plunk down their credit card and take home a complete model railroad in a box that they could just open and run, complete with track, rolling stock, scenery, wiring, structures, etcetera.

But for me, that seems to be missing out on the whole point.

I build models because I enjoy building models. When I look at a model I built, I get great satisfaction from knowing that I built it, whether it is a scratchbuilt structure or a kit-built piece of rolling stock or some scenery component. Buying an RTR piece just doesn't provide that same sense of enjoyment. Admittedly, I have bought some RTR pieces of motive power, but I don't think I would ever buy a pre-built structure kit because I wouldn't get the fun of building it! Oh, if I found some pre-built structure I wanted used at some train show for a great price I might buy it, but I'd probably end up making some modifications to it later on. And even the RTR stuff I buy typically needs weathering and detail modification...

As to "getting it done", well, I can run trains as soon as I have track laid--my current layout isn't finished, but the track is down so I can run trains all I want as the layout springs into being around 'em.

Model railroading is a hobby for the jack of all trades--someone interested in everything but not interested in being a single-subject expert in anything, and, well, that's me. I think that having a wide range of skills was more common in the past, and rarer now--people tend to have more specialized knowledge and less general knowledge, and in a sense less adaptability. I'm not an expert electrician or a master carpenter or a professional artist, but I can do each well enough to build a model railroad.

I'm no retiree, either--I work 40 hours a week, volunteer at the railroad museum 4-8 hours a week, occasonally work consulting jobs, put on live shows and perform with my band, and occasionally do housework and spend time with the wife. This doesn't leave me much time to work on the layout, but I don't mind taking my time with it.

But then, I'm the kind of guy who builds his own computers, grows his own vegetables in the backyard, bakes his own bread, and travels long distances by train--in other words, one of those freaky weirdos who finds that the journey is just as rewarding as the destination.

[ndbprr]

I find that I don't have time to do the research or the time to correct everything so I just concentrate on the PRR stuff as other PRR modelers know the difference. the other roads equipment on my railroad is filler and I could care less about it. besides it draws attention to the PRR equipment and it stands out as something special compared to say a NYC atroicty. [:)]

[Anonymous]

I find it interesting, all the comments about time, and the way it used to be, and operation oriented over detail oriented.

Let me assume that most people posting on here are the "typical" model railroader, late 30's to late 50's, established profession, and so one.

I myself am a 22 year old college student, working on a second major, with the goal in mind that the more education I have, the better the job I will get, thus the more time and money I will have for my hobby, we'll see on that one.

Anyway, I LOVE to scratchbuild and have been forced into it for a variety of reasons.

#1 I model the two foot railroads of early 20th century Maine, and despite there being several kits available for the Maine narrow gauges, they are quite pricey at $40 for a box car, and THATS WITHOUT THE TRUCKS!!!

#2 I model in On2, not exactly on the list of "Most Popular Scales" actualy I would venture that the amount of serious On2 modelers out there is comparable if not much less than serious traction modelers, and we all know how rare those are, I mean we're talking the Maltese Falcoln of model railroaders.

#3 I am anal, I am the type of person that can't buy a remodeled house because I don't want someone else "mistakes" so scratchbuilding is perfect for me.

#4 After studying I have A LOT of time, I don't party so this is perfect. Only problem is there are few few few places that supply "good" On2 trucks, so I have, right now, what would amount to a freakin awesome model of a railroad being scrapped. Thank goodness structures don't need wheels.

So as a tribute to all you scratch builders

Casting your own truck frames $0.50
Turning your own wheels $0.33
Lumber for 2 box cars, 1 flat, & 1 passenger car $57.95
Brass for 1 engine $65.00
Building it yourself and learning a lost art 100+ well focused hours
Knowing that you paid 10% of what those RTR fools did

PRICELESS


Now don't get me wrong, I have done the RTR thing before, but I am still a detail person, and always will be, operation on my future line is simple, I want to stage a five star show for visitors, scratchbuilding is just what suits me.

The important thing about model railroading is to remember no matter what the approach is that you take, we are all in this for fun, and we can all learn untold amounts from each other, regardless of preference, everything builds on what was done previously.


HAVE FUN, and chew on that one for a while.

PS I am NOT an english major, so spelling doesn't count.

[loathar]

Not me. I always buy kits instead of RTR. I like the challenge of building the stuff.

[icmr]

I get any of it as long as it is what I want.



ICMR

Happy Railroading.[swg][swg]

[rolleiman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ACL Fan

I'm finding it stranger and stranger that so many people on this forum are lamenting the fact that ready-to-run stuff is supplanting kits and the like.

The reason it's strange is that there have to be an equal number of posters saying things that amount to, "What's the fastest way to..." or "I don't want to mess with all the work that goes with...." or "I don't have time to...."

If people are going to say they want the easiest possible way to lay track/run trains/build scenery, then it's no surprise that the manufacturers are going to give them exactly that.

Instant gratification my friend.. That's what it's all about these days.. People want what they want when they want it and they want it now. Get all that?? I must admit that after assembling 1000+ pieces of rolling stock, I'm just not interested anymore in putting them together. I'm not particularly interested in rivet by rivet accuracy of the model either, with the exception of the locomotives, so they are pretty much assembled as intended right out of the box. So, If I can get what I want, prebuilt (or someone else has assembled it), for just a couple $$ more, I'm going that route.. Right now I'm more interested in building structures. I am one of those who has to have built all the structures on the layout. I also spike my own track and build my own turnouts and crossings. It isn't because I think it looks better (although I do), but it's because I enjoy doing it.

You are right.. If people want pull it out of the box and plop it on the layout, that's what they are going to get.. As long as they are willing to pay for it.. But trust me, the people who simply enjoy the building end of it aren't asking those questions.. They are in process of "just get it done"..

Jeff
[8D]

[fwright]

Model Railroading is my chosen hobby because
1) I'm doing more than just collecting stuff - if I want to be a collector, I'll collect something more compact like stamps.
2) I don't have to do anything with other people. I'm an introvert living in an extroverted world. I deal with teams, projects, wife, kids, and friends far more than I have need. Which means I don't need a large layout (for which I don't have money/space for anyway). Sequential operations will be about as far as I go operationally.
3) Because in my world of work singular accomplishment means nothing, being able to say "I built that" as my Shay steams out of the forest over the tall trestle makes me feel real good.
4) If I am willing to build it myself, the cost per hour of the hobby is very inexpensive.

That said, I watched my father after he retired. He started building in 1990 a relatively ambitious layout - about 11 ft x 20 ft in HO. He used flex track, a mixture of RTR and kit locomotives, and so forth, and started on the journey to become an NMRA Master MR. Now his health and eyesight is failing him, and he never got the layout to a point where it satisfied him. Things that did layout completion in were a duck-under design, too much hidden trackage (or tracks that were underneath other trackage), and the chore of installing and wiring switch machines, feeders, and block wiring. Although he got enough for a continuous run working, towards the end he took much greater delight in building very detailed and weathered structures. The scenery was never done (except what I put in for him) and the trains didn't run anymore. The thought of going under the layout to fini***he wiring to get more trackage working was unpleasant and painful enough to not do it. Virtually all is being sold off now. I'm sure many of us know similar stories.

As a result of this, and understanding myself better, I am forcing myself to stick with a very small layout that can be expanded some day if I have the time or desire. That way I can still build most everything from kits, and handlay my track. I am hard-over on easy accessibility to all track and wiring, and ensuring that good lighting is a part of the layout plan. I plan to strictly limit my roster to 5 or less locomotives in each gauge. This requires strict emphasis on locomotives that fit my era and theme, and not what the LHS sells! In fact, I will have to sell some locomotives and rolling stock to get there.

From the hobby supplier's point of view: As the price of labor relative to machinery continues to increase, RTR becomes the more practical alternative to produce. The distribution system of the past (wholesalers/dealers) is broken, but nothing has fully taken its place, creating a lot of uncertainty for the producer. So the answer to reduce risk from his point of view is limited runs of RTR. With limited RTR runs, his costs are very certain, and reduced to a minimum. No follow-on support or parts and no hand-holding over the telephone for people struggling with kits - just the cost of cutting the dies, producing, and marketing the items. The disadvantage from the producer's point of view of limited run RTR is limited profit. But if an item is that big a seller, a rerun at a later date is certainly feasible.

My main point in this long diatribe is the decision as to whether kits or RTR is the answer from the modeler's view should be part of an integrated overall approach to the hobby. What makes you happy, and what parts of the hobby that you would rather not do that can you afford to pay somebody else to do, should be the factors that determine your approach. Your outcome should also be scaled to your time and money available.

Meanwhile, unless there is a proven market for kits and/or the model train distribution system stabilizes, I think they will continue to die out. Right now, the kit market is apparently being supplied adequately (not great, but adequately) by a combination of left-over old stock kits that were never sold/built, and small producer new stock.

My advice is worth every penny you paid for it!

[SpaceMouse]

I would like to acheive the level of Zen railroading that Jetrock talks about. Check that, it is vital that I do so because what I want in terms of a finished product will require attention to minute details. However, in real life, I am a Git 'er Done euntrapenuer business builder. I can't afford to take my time. It is hard to switch gears.

So I jumped on my layout and scrounged a bunch of structures that are almost what I want--but I know must be replaced. I bought an plastiic engine house for $7 and put three weeks labor into it and got the effect I was looking for. Now I'm working on a craftsman mine. It is a series of 5-6 structres, the smallest of which took me a week and I haven't weathered it yet. When it's done, if it turns out like I think, will be followed 20 or so other kits that I already have.

I also have some old kits Mantua and MDC that are locos needed on my layout. What I need, for the most part are not in production.

The fact that so much work must go into every loco and structure is maddening to my Git 'er Done business life.

So if I survive in this hobby, I have to Ommmm out and develop patience and live in the moment. It is part of the appeal of the hobby.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by twofootrevival



So as a tribute to all you scratch builders

Casting your own truck frames $0.50
Turning your own wheels $0.33
Lumber for 2 box cars, 1 flat, & 1 passenger car $57.95
Brass for 1 engine $65.00
Building it yourself and learning a lost art 100+ well focused hours
Knowing that you paid 10% of what those RTR fools did

PRICELESS

TwoFootRevival,

Do you have a machine shop, or access to one? I love the thought of scratchbuilding some diesel loco's in the future. It seems really difficult to find info on how to do this!

I don't know if I should bother going down that road without a mill & a lathe (which I know how to use, but don't want to purchase).

[Anonymous]

while I do get some rtr ,(kadee and atlas), I prefer kits, branchline red caboose, intermountain, etc. I like the challenge of the kit and the price, it's usually half. As long as you can get either, I'de be happy, but a lot of builders are just doing rtr, and the price keeps me from getting more.

[Anonymous]

I am in N scale and haven't seen to many kits available. I buy what I refer to as "Once Ready To Roll" and work on it to try to get it to what I consider acceptable condition. I have not really finished anything yet, still getting tool and supplies, but I am having fun. I have to say the same about the layout. The sectional bench work is mostly recycled materials. A 3X4 piece of homosote left over from my wife's stained glass set up. Two doors off of a closet I turned into a book shelf / desk. To me the hands on creativity is the fun. Even if I had unlimited funds I don't think I would do it any differently. But I would have all the tools and 40 + more free hours in the week fot the layout.

[Anonymous]

How we wax poetic. The simple theme is that there are no cheap BBs out there. The days of the $3.25 shake the box rolling stock are gone, but we cannot let go. RTR is the obvious target for the disappointment being that they are what is available plus $15.00.
What is, is. Sure we would like dollar a gallon gasoline, a bigger SUV in the driveway, and an E-Bay auction win of a mint condition brass cab forward for $50.00. Were it was so.
It is time to move on with the realities of todays market place. RTR would gather dust on the merchants shelves if someone was not buying them. And the manufacturers would be rushing kits to the local hobby shop if there was money to be made and buyers to provide that money.
Decades before I became involved with the hobby, modellers were cutting up tin cans for scratch building materials, and building some interesting models and layouts. Relatively they had no more time or money than we have today, despite the rumors that the winters were milder and the summers cooler. So why don't we build more? Are we less bright than our predicessors, or just lazy, lulled by cheap Wally World pricing into thinking that it is cheaper to buy a new computer because your kid unplugged the power cord for some other use, and the fuse in the power supply blew when the cord got plugged back in. Do we go in search of the fuse, or run out a get a new one. Hey I got it "sale" for $599.99 at XYZ. Who said a fool and our money are soon parted? What was the "golden rule", they who have the gold, rule.
"Our world" keeps changing with events pushing those changes into an increasingly rapid series of changes. We need to wake up to the changes. This morning the military advises the president that we need a coordinated national "search and rescue plan" and we are pleased that someone has a brilliant suggestion like this one. The same people who sent fighter aircraft out to sea when the nation was under attack by aircraft crashing into buildings. Why does it take four years to finally "get" the Vision, that we need to prepare for a changing world and hope that someone in China or India don't go for a tripple or quad major to out do us, again.
So if we are to accomplish what we want in our modeling goals, less bemoaning of what is no more, and more moving forward with what is possible, even if it is RTR. Change is what we have, so we need to embrace change .

Will

[SpaceMouse]

I for one don't wax poetic since I have only been in the hobby for less that a year. I miss models since the old models I have been able to scrounge off eBay and train shows are the closest things I can get to the models I need for my era. That goes for locos, rolling stock and structures. Just in the last year, it had gotten harder and harder to find what I need.

In addition, It takes more work to take an RTR apart and redo it than to make the alterations as it is being constructed.

While RTR may be the mass market, for serious modelers it is getting harder. Since this forum has its fair share of serious modelers, just maybe they are feeling the pinch.

[Anonymous]

This is a very interesting topic.

I think it's safe to say the model railroads in Model Railroader are way better looking today than they were even 15 years ago.

With all the products available, people can focus on the overall picture more.

I love the idea of scratchbuilding stuff. I am currently struggling with this concept. What is scratchbuilding, really? How far do you take it?

MR had an article on scratchbuilding a steam locomotive in the late 90's. I have the article. The guy does an awesome job.

However, not everything is scratchbuilt. He still uses an off-the-shelf motor, trucks, wheels, lots of detail parts, etc.

It's almost as if there is an invisible line of where you "draw the line". People draw the line in different places.

I'm a mechanical engineer, and have designed, among many other things, motors. I know for a fact I don't want to be scratchbuilding a motor by hand. That would be crazy. So if I ever "scratchbuilt" an engine, it would not be 100% "scratchbuilt".

That line seems to be shifting closer to the ready-to-run side these days, I think.

Very interesting topic, and I don't know exactly where I stand.

If I were to scratchbuild a diesel, would I be able to make it look like a high quality atlas diesel? As much as I'd like to say I could, I sort of doubt it.

Maybe I'll have to be a structure/track scratchbuilder, but locomotive RTR'er. Maybe that's where my line will be drawn.

For the track though, I'll still be buying ties, rail, and spikes. So even there, a line is drawn.

Where's your line?

[claycts]

The TRUE SCRATCH BUILDER was Mr John Allen, heck, he made his own people! My wife keeps buying me RTR stuff so that I can have something "ready for Christmas", heck the tabel will not be done by then. I have spen time looking for kits and have found a bunch of OLD Walthers, Roundhouse and Atherns along with plent of Campbell Kits. all I need is the time to build them.
RTR is good for a lot of people, it gets them up, running and a taste of what can be.
Take Care
George P.

[markn]

"Where's your line?"-short answer-making something unique-something you won't see on everyone else's layout and when asked "where did you get that?" being able to say.."I made it!"

[jwar]

Returning to the hobby after 35 years I see a fantastic change concerning detail. The Athern blue box cars appear to me to be the same castings. other brands RTR have so much detail, I wont finish detailing them untill I get my scenery finished, thereby not handeling the cars so much.

I never attained the scenery stage years ago, Most layouts by todays standards were in my openion "a lot to be desired" Most of todays layouts far surpass yesterdays layouts, hey thats just my personal openion

Theres a lot to do and many skills needed to get our mini railroads up and running, taking a great amount of time and energy. Been at this three years and I really feel flustrated Im not further along. Finding better ideas a cheaper and quicker ways of doing things is the "American Way" then we wonder why other countrys grab on to that concept, hmmmm

I see today far better scrach building supplys and keener kits then three decades ago. However any industry has to follow the flow, or turnout the lights.

To me lamenting any type of modeler is a great waste of my time, If I visited your layout, I could care less if your railroad lives in Plastic Junction, Rural flatlands, or Detail City., as we share a great hobby.

Perhaps Im a "just get it done", I just want to get it to the point of apearing to be done, then I can get on to better and more detailed things.
Take care...John

[rolleiman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by markn

"Where's your line?"-short answer-making something unique-something you won't see on everyone else's layout and when asked "where did you get that?" being able to say.."I made it!"

[#ditto][#ditto][#ditto][#ditto]

Jeff

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rolleiman

QUOTE: Originally posted by markn

"Where's your line?"-short answer-making something unique-something you won't see on everyone else's layout and when asked "where did you get that?" being able to say.."I made it!"

[#ditto][#ditto][#ditto][#ditto]

Jeff

I must agree with markn and rolleiman. If the hobby means nothing more to you than quickly amassing a collection of RTR "stuff" that looks identical to everyone elses and getting a layout completed in the shortest possible time, then it's really a sad reflection on what the hobby has come to.

For decades this hobby was about high personal craftsmanship, clever innovations, and savoring and expanding your own creative talents over time. The only thing that results from rushing through your "hobby" is a rapid loss of interest and the urge to move on to some other pursuit. How many magazine-quality layouts do you think came out of a box or were built over a few weeks or months?

CNJ831

[skiloff]

I've stated in other threads that I like RTR because I neither have the time to put the kits together, nor have the desire at this point to do so. I do, however, enjoy assembling buildings and am looking at kitbashing some, but I will also have some stock buildings if it looks right for what I'm after.

I think the point that some are missing is that this hobby can offer so much to many different interests that just because you think it a cardinal sin to have buildings or rolling stock that other people have, doesn't mean the next guy doesn't give a rip. I'm building my layout for me, my son and my daughter to enjoy together and I could really care less if it looks similar or completely different from someone else's. It is highly unlikely that I will ever have my layout published in MR and quite likely no more than a few dozen family and friends will ever see it. It almost sounds like some are putting down people for enjoying the hobby differently than they do and that is a sad statement.