Poll #3 RTR over KITS

[Anonymous]

I voted yes and no. For myself I prefer kits. I hardly ever pass up a chance to get one of the old Ambroid kits. But the reality is that the ACF Centerflow that I built from one of those kits, while good, cannot compare to some the better RTR products.
Working part time at a local Hobbytown, I encounter many people who do not, or claim to not have time to assemble the more difficult kits. They want to have trains but feel that they will never get there if they have to build everything.
I think that there is room for both without polarizing the hobby. However, for myself it is kits forever!

Cliff Smith

[ClinchValleySD40]

I prefer R-T-R because I don't have time for kits at this point. I absolutely love the Atlas freight cars. If I had plenty of time, I'd probably stick with kits.

[ericsp]

I posted a poll back in July that asked something to the effect "if all kits and RTR products were available as both kits and RTR, which would you buy?" with somewhat similar results (kits won). For some reason, I just do not like buying a car, taking out of the box. and putting on my layout, it is no fun to me. I have nothing against RTR, I just wi***he companies would not assemble some of their products and offer them as kits (they aren't extruded, or injection molded as one piece, except for some detail parts). Maybe if we boycott RTR (until they offer more kits) and all told the manufactures that we want kits too, they would offer some.

Walthers says that they have gone to RTR because that is what most people want. However, all of the polls I have seen here indicate otherwise. Is Walthers wrong or are people who like kits more likely to come here than people who like RTR?

[fec153]

emerald-I have put many mdc-accurail and bb's together. well over 250. I had to get a friend to put together two tanker kits from intermountain as I couldnot.[B)][:(]. Ialso had to pay someone else to put all the grabs and small details on a kato loco. I just don't have the talent to do craftsman kits. But I also do not have the money to spend on rtr unless it is something special I really want-Not need-WANT.
Fla.Phil

[on30francisco]

I like both. RTR for locomotives and kits for rolling stock and structures. I don't enjoy building most craft train kits and would much rather scratchbuild - preferably out of wood.

[BRAKIE]

I have mixed feelings over RTR engines and cars..I think they will help the hobbyist while also hurting the hobbyist at the same time.You see I fear that some of the basic skills will be lost..However thankfully some cars are not truly RTR as one must add some parts such as grabs and steps.Not to mention one needs to change out the couplers for more reliability..
Now I prefer a Athearn or MDC car kit over those kits that has a thousand and one iddy biddy pieces..

I do like the looks of the RTR cars over the kits..The Athearn Genesis,5344 and 5347s comes to mind as well as the IM RTR cars.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SuperChiefFan

Emerald, when do you think you'll have enough information to compile and subsequently post your findings? It should be interesting to read.

Andrew

probably do it this weekend.

[CBQ_Guy]

Maybe Yes, Maybe No was my vote. I don't like the high prices of the RTR stuff but they are outselling the kits so those participants in model railroading is apparently being served...and satisfied. On the other hand, the less kits of reasonable cost available can't help but to keep the kids and those on a tight model railroad budget away from hobby particiaption.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dehusman

The problem with the vast majority of the "polls" on these chat groups are they are not comprehensive or are constructed to end up with the results the creator wants. Poll #2 is an excellent example of this. The only possible option is to pick something that is "wrong". It doesn't allow for the possibility that things are "right".
Dave H.

Dave, Poll #2 questions what's wrong with the hobby, if anything. The creator of the survey did include the option of voting for "Nothing" for those who see no problems within the hobby. I think many of the pollsters make strong attempts to include all possible categories in which to cast a vote.

The polls aren't scientific and should always be viewed as such, which creates room for friendly agreement or dissension. I would consider a margin of error when reviewing results. In any event, polls are created to be fun. They are not necessarily a definitive view on what many modelers feel; they simply shed light on what the participants think.

[dehusman]

The problem with the vast majority of the "polls" on these chat groups are they are not comprehensive or are constructed to end up with the results the creator wants. Poll #2 is an excellent example of this. The only possible option is to pick something that is "wrong". It doesn't allow for the possibility that things are "right". For example if 1000 people read the survey and 990 of them decide that nothing is wrong with the hobby and so don't participate, then the other 10 all vote for "RTR". The results of the poll will "show" the the "problem" with model railroading is RTR, even though 99% of the people in the hobby don't think there is anything wrong with the hobby.
Another problem is that most polls do not have a statistically representative number of participants, so the results really don't mean anything as far as the hobby as a whole.

Dave H.

[Anonymous]

Emerald, when do you think you'll have enough information to compile and subsequently post your findings? It should be interesting to read.

Andrew

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SuperChiefFan

QUOTE: Originally posted by Roadtrp

I like trains!!!
[:D][:D]

And just what the heck is so bad about that??
[?][?]

After I've been with it a bit, I may well decided to get much more serious about the modeling end of it. But in the meantime, I'm out there buying stuff from the LHS and the internet, stuff that probably has a higher profit margin since it is built. Thereby keeping the LHS guys in business so folks like you who want to build everything from toothpicks can!

[bow][#ditto][bow][#ditto][bow][#ditto][bow][#ditto][bow][#ditto][bow][#ditto][bow]
I voted RTR. I have nothing against kits; it's just that when I see something I like I want to get it home, watch it run, and have fun doing so. What's wrong with that???

Okay, Emerald--I think I've responded to all of your polls![(-D]

And I thankyou[:D][:D][:D][:D]

[vsmith]

its both good and bad, RTR gets more people into the hobby and Kits are a great challenge for experienced modelers. OTOH, RTR sucks the life out of the hobby for more experienced modelers, and kits can scare off newer modelers.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Roadtrp

I like trains!!!
[:D][:D]

And just what the heck is so bad about that??
[?][?]

After I've been with it a bit, I may well decided to get much more serious about the modeling end of it. But in the meantime, I'm out there buying stuff from the LHS and the internet, stuff that probably has a higher profit margin since it is built. Thereby keeping the LHS guys in business so folks like you who want to build everything from toothpicks can!

[bow][#ditto][bow][#ditto][bow][#ditto][bow][#ditto][bow][#ditto][bow][#ditto][bow]
I voted RTR. I have nothing against kits; it's just that when I see something I like I want to get it home, watch it run, and have fun doing so. What's wrong with that???

Okay, Emerald--I think I've responded to all of your polls![(-D]

[Hawks05]

RTR was pretty nice to have when i just started but now i kind of like the kits. you can do pretty much what you want with them. they are nice to customize stuff for your railroad.

its hard to say which is better. if you are just starting its nice to get RTR stuff to get going but then you find that kits are better.

[Anonymous]

I'm just starting my second layout and I'm building structures from scratch. Also making some turnouts from Nickel silver rails. I enjoy trying to build in the late 30's or early forties. I also like the old rural scenes of up-state NY. I'm not adverse to RTR power if I can find them - especially smaller switchers.

I think that the hobby has room for everyone and after a while most folks do some kits for special effects or a singular need for their own pike.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005

I did not answer this poll.

To me this question has no real meaning for 2 reasons. First, in the scale that I model
( 3 rail O ) this isn't an issue since everything is ready to run. Second, the question is begging to divide the hobby and set the stage for more intolerance and conflict. See my response to poll 2.

By answering this poll, we start down the road of who's right and who's wrong, and that is road leads only to trouble.

Your first point is well taken, however the second is begging to be answered because this is an issue that is with us on global scale today . Around the world today, MRR Manufactureres are trying to cope with an ever changing hobby, ever changing attitudes about the hobby, and most of all, economic conditions around the world, that could all but destroy this hobby as well as others. I've been in this hobby for 51 years, and in that time, I've seen it and most other hobbies, fall so low, that hobbyshops just couldn't stay in bussiness. Without hobbyshops, we really don't have a hobby, unless you want to scratchbuild everything. So MRR Manufactureres have to trim down to make a profit and stay in bussiness. What do they do, continue with a line of kits that maybe only a few diehards still want or do they go with the ever growing demand for RTR. Ignoring this issue won't make it go away, it's like the one and only bad penny that keeps showing up. I think, really, that most modelrailroaders, are a very intelligent lot and they see the trends occurring and don't really know what to do about it, or how others really feel. I don't think this is going to devide the hobbiest, but rather show what the real demand is.

[Anonymous]

Hmmm.... I cannot believe that there are people out there that cannot assemble an Athearn gondola or caboose! We're not talking rocket science. 2 screws and a couple of clicks, glue 2 parts . This is not like assembling a Tamiya Tiger tank or something very complex. If they have physical problems maybe. Time wise it takes almost as much time to open a RTR box as is does to do the basic assembly of some kits. The advantage to kits would that you can customize with out taking the car apart, thus making it not RTR. There are plenty of RTR's out there that are almost the same as the kits. I have a Bachman caboose that is exactly like an Athearn kit.(I was SHOCKED) Paid a lot less money for it that the Athearn RTR's. Athearn caboose kit that takes 5 minutes to put together. $5.75 Same car in the same condition RTR $14. $8 for 5 mins work or $96 an hour to do it and in CHINA!!!! You tell me !!! Oh course there are middle men etc.etc.

RMax

[BNSFNUT]

I enjoy building kits (I also do some scratch building) but I have some RTR equipment as it saves time and is the only way I can get the car I want. I built all my structures from kit or scratch built but I have one built up structure I just could not resist.
How many modelers complain about all the RTR stuff on the market but are happy to take an Atlas or Kato deisel out of the box and drop it on the track? Any one want to scratch build a SD70?

[Anonymous]

If there ISN'T room for everyone's preferences, the hobby is in more trouble than we think.
Ours is not like so many "other" hobbies...there's a huge diversity of approaches we can take. Someone who buys RTR equipment, but builds excellent scenery, buildings, or electrical control systems, or who faithfully runs a timetable and \ or a car forwarding system IS certainly a model railroader.
But if there's no layout, and the models are in a display case, they may be a "collector" instead....[:0]
Someone who scratchbuilds or kitbashes extremely detailed rolling stock, but isn't so great at doing backdrops or who has crude-looking trees, is still a model railroader, as long as there's a layout and track involved.
Otherwise, they may be a "model-builder" instead.....[:X]
What difference should it make to us as individuals whether we are everything that some self-styled "expert" decides we should be ? Where's the fun in having to adhere to some sort of "checklist" of values and choices ?[?]
regards
Mike

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kbfcsme

QUOTE: Originally posted by dougal

But what about rookies? They don't want to spend an hour (or more) building a kit when they could be running trains!

An hour spent is not a kit! Thats just shaking a box and having stiff fall out right! What some of us "old timers" refer to as a kit starts life as a box of sticks (or brass) and some crude instructions, and ends up a piece of rolling stock, or an engine, or a factory complex, some 20 or 30 hours later!
Get yourself an old RedBall, Gloorcraft, or Quality craft kit. They are relatively inexpensive at train shows, 10-15 bucks will get you a nice basic kit. Follow the directions (look at the pictures) take your time and do the VERY BEST job you can. Use lots of sanding sealer to hide the woodgrain, (unless its a wood sheathed reefer)double check all measurements before installing the grabirons, and paint carefully. Even if it comes out halfway decent, you will be prouder of that car that any other in the fleet.
You can't get that feeling in a box!
Your friends reaction?----------->[:O][wow][C):-)][yeah]

Thank You

Someone has defined what a "kit" is. However this is a skill that not everyone is capable of. Unless they can find someone to take the time to show them. And from what I'm reading not everyone has this as an option.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by IRONROOSTER

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005


....in the scale that I model
( 3 rail O ) this isn't an issue since everything is ready to run. ....

You can always build a O scale kit and use lionel trucks and couplers.

Personally, I like RTR because it gets me up and running faster, but I also enjoy building kits.
By having both the hobby is attractive to more people and we all benefit. I suspect that a fair number of the RTR folks will eventually build a kit and most of the kit folks will buy a RTR diesel (can't hardly get a diesel kit) .

Enjoy
Paul

That's a very good point Paul, and maybe some day I will get around to it. As it stands right now, I have almost 500 cars on the rails with no power. They are sitting in the only partially hidden "hidden yard" collecting dust, as I work to build the layout. I was tired of having them packed away in boxes, so with 600 feet of track down, I decided to take them out for inspiration, and it worked![:D]

Come to think of it, in 30 years in this hobby, I've never done any rolling stock tougher than a "shake the box" Athearn. I guess I prefer structures, those I've done quite a few, and a lot from scratch at that. Thanks for the wake up call.[:D]

[Anonymous]

I feel that Ready to Run has its place in the hobby and am glad after years of Bachmann, Tyco, and Life-Like hell that quality ready to run pieces are being offerd by people like Walthers, Spectrum, (Interestingly a division of Bachmann!) and Athearn, (Though for some reason ever piece of Athearn RTR I have orderd has been sub standard. But with my discussions with other modelers I am told I must be extreamly unlucky as all of theirs has been red leter perfect) I feel that Ready to Roll only leads to a limited satisfaction of you are truely modeling. You may just want to run trains and Ready to Run fills your needs completely, Thats fine, Even Great, What ever floats your boat. But for me, If there is no modeling involved. Even the ritualistic assembly of a Basic Box Car kit, I feel what's the point. Its just a piece of plastic I took out of the box and set on the track. ANd it wasn't much fun. For me model railroading is the fun derived from going through the process of building things. Not running things around on fancy circles of track. (What I consider the new Chicago Museum of Science and Industry layout to be) As for my layout, While I hope it to be operational, so that I can show freinds and family and one day the public the fruits of my laborings. If I never truely get there. I' wont be all that upset. As All the fun I had building the models on it is what the hobby is about for me.

[Roadtrp]

I like trains!!!
[:D][:D]

And just what the heck is so bad about that??
[?][?]

After I've been with it a bit, I may well decided to get much more serious about the modeling end of it. But in the meantime, I'm out there buying stuff from the LHS and the internet, stuff that probably has a higher profit margin since it is built. Thereby keeping the LHS guys in business so folks like you who want to build everything from toothpicks can!

[Anonymous]

Since you ask, I'll tell you what I think. RTR isn't model railroading, its playing with trains.

The essence of model railroading is putting something of yourself in to a project, regardless of how elementary and artless the result. Buying RTR is putting the contents of your wallet on display.

Someone who doesn't have the time and won't make the effort to develope the skills, is someone who likes trains, they aren't a model railroader.

Randy

[IRONROOSTER]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Big_Boy_4005


....in the scale that I model
( 3 rail O ) this isn't an issue since everything is ready to run. ....

You can always build a O scale kit and use lionel trucks and couplers.

Personally, I like RTR because it gets me up and running faster, but I also enjoy building kits.
By having both the hobby is attractive to more people and we all benefit. I suspect that a fair number of the RTR folks will eventually build a kit and most of the kit folks will buy a RTR diesel (can't hardly get a diesel kit) .

Enjoy
Paul

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dougal

But what about rookies? They don't want to spend an hour (or more) building a kit when they could be running trains!

An hour spent is not a kit! Thats just shaking a box and having stiff fall out right! What some of us "old timers" refer to as a kit starts life as a box of sticks (or brass) and some crude instructions, and ends up a piece of rolling stock, or an engine, or a factory complex, some 20 or 30 hours later!
Get yourself an old RedBall, Gloorcraft, or Quality craft kit. They are relatively inexpensive at train shows, 10-15 bucks will get you a nice basic kit. Follow the directions (look at the pictures) take your time and do the VERY BEST job you can. Use lots of sanding sealer to hide the woodgrain, (unless its a wood sheathed reefer)double check all measurements before installing the grabirons, and paint carefully. Even if it comes out halfway decent, you will be prouder of that car that any other in the fleet.
You can't get that feeling in a box!
Your friends reaction?----------->[:O][wow][C):-)][yeah]

[CP5415]

If there's a locomotive or piece of rolling stock i want, the only thing that'll usually stop me is price.
I do prefer the "kits" though. To me there is a satisfying feeling I get after assembling an Athearn, Accurail or Roundhouse kit. It's just not the same as taking something out of the box & placing it on the rails.
I have 2 Intermountain kits I inherited from my dad I haven't tackled yet. I'm saving those for when I get most of my scenery done.
The one thing I wished that all manufacturers would do is put KD's in the box instead of the crappy imitations.

Gordon

[tomwatkins]

I prefer kits to RTR because I like building models and adding details. However, there is a place for both in the hobby. RTR makes sense if you can afford them and would rather spend money instead of time. Hopefully both will continue to be available in good supply and variety.
Have fun,
Tom Watkins