Sir,
Precision Crap Models has by far the worst record of any model manufacturer I've known. Of half a dozen N scale products they've announced (some as early as 2004) only one has ever been produced.
They like to slip the release date when it gets close.
The HO PRR I1sa has been on the books since 2004... Only last month was it revealed to the Pennsy modeling community that they had finally produced a pilot model.
You may well get your I1sa, and I wish you luck! I doubt, based on the unfinished pilot model, that you will see it next month, but at least PCM shows signs of making it.
I'm still waiting for the PRR M1a/b in N scale they announced in late 2003. I have a pre-order. They haven't even started a pilot model.
Actually, I gave up and started building my own.
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
I wouldn't put much stock in a PCM/BLI delivery date. When I originally ordered my PAs, they were due in early fall of '06. They weren't delivered until June of this year. I have noticed the same thing with quite a few of their projected delivery dates.
To be fair, it isn't just PCM though. I am in the same boat with Athearn waiting for the FP45s. I believe that was supposed to have originally been August of this year.
jblackwelljr wrote:I recently ordered a PCM PRR I1sa (w/short tender). This is the first time I've ordered a loco with a future-release date - I usually stick with in-stock stuff. My question is, how reliable is PCM with their projected dates? The ETA is Jan '08. I'm not aware if this is the original promise-date or if it's been moved several times. Am I dreaming if I expect to get it next month???
The schedule is varied since it has been slipped several times. You should be happy you did not reserve it a year ago. PCM usually comes with a good product, just not on time.
cheers
Well....I'm a very patient man. I'm still waiting for Zager and Evans' second hit single. However, I'm also not a young man, so I hope they get their act together.
Check this forum out. There have been some talk about release dates and Matthew from BLI have been very fast in answering the last day or two.
http://precisioncraftmodels.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=1
Magnus
I also have an I1sa on order, and I was told last month by BLI/PCM that "We expect delivery in February or March of 2008". I think the delays have mainly been in getting the tooling made - I heard that they had to find a new builder last year, and that it's taken this long for them to find a place in the queue for the I1. Now the metal has been cut and the tool has been made, the actual production should be pretty quick. I have heard that the models are superb and well worth the wait - the pre-production shots look excellent and the model really seems to capture the look of the prototype. I also notice that they appear to be using brass numberplates, builders plates, trust plates etc.
-Ed
PCM/BLI has slipped badly in thier announced dates, delivery dates and swung wildly back and forth between TBD, Nov 07, JAN 08, June 08, NOV 08 for the Long Tender model.
Accuracy is something that relies on something called "Suspension of Disbelief." In the nice land of trains and all things wonderful we are supposed to contently wait months, years if at all.
They will have you believe that pre-orders is the future. Well, they wore it out long ago. For me, I acted to buy products availible NOW and suitable for the service. For example the PCM P7 President was another long-waited for engine. I canceled that one and bought Proto E7 A units by a pair to do the same service.
Now any kind of dates generate a urge to setup a large towel to wipe the tears of laughter away. If I had a load that arrived that late, I cannot expect to keep my job with the company that scheduled it.
I dont mind a little wait. It took Walthers 3 years total to issue what I consider to be a complete train in heavyweights. But just not two years and no information or hard data.
Yes thier Forums appear to be undergoing some quick postings. Maybe they finally unfroze that rusted wheel and got moving again. Who knows?
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
My personal opinion on this:
PCM don't actually owe us anything, and we don't owe them anything. As I understand it, the reason behind the preorder idea is to get a good gauge of what the market for a model is like - I understand that the costs to bring a model to market are in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, and for a relatively small company like PCM/BLI (I read on their forum that they have 12 people), they clearly can't afford to have a string of poor selling models on their hands. People have previously complained about the sale prices on models that have come after they have bought the model at MSRP. These sales are a sign (in my opinion) that the model was overproduced and that the excess is being sold off, rather than taking up storage space, which is an expense. The idea behind the pre-order system is that the excess is kept to a minimum, so these sales aren't necessary. By the same token, models that don't meet a certain pre-order threshold simply won't get made, as the company wouldn't be able to take the hit if they invested the money and they didn't sell. I believe that with brass, it was quite common for producers to take a substantial deposit before anything was produced on the model, relying solely on the reputation of the builder. If there wasn't sufficient interest, the model would be cancelled and the deposit was returned to the prospective purchasers. At least with PCM they are putting up the cash to produce the models, and if the model doesn't match expectations they will be faced with a lot of returned merchandise.
My suspicion is that when more models are on the market, and assuming the preorders are taken up and the models sell, the production rate might increase. It wouldn't surprise me if some models they have announced never get produced if the preorders don't materialise, but who can blame a company for not wanting to potentially ruin themselves?
NB: My only relationship with PCM/BLI is as a satisfied customer. I can sympathise with their situation, having been in the situation of investing substantial amounts of time and money in projects that have not met with the commercial success that was expected.
I don't know what the situation is with the other models, but with the I1sa a substantial amount of work had been done by the time the model was announced. The CAD models that were shown on the website would be a substantial investment - probably in the order of thousands or tens of thousands of dollars.
I'm not trying to say it's not frustrating - it definitely is and it feels like I've been waiting for the I1 FOREVER, but my point is that there are two sides to the story and there's no way that PCM are doing this intentionally. Every model company (and every company) wants to produce what people want, but I find it hard to blame a company that's just ensuring there's market before investing such a large chunk of money.
Speaking for my own situation, I have no problem at all waiting patiently for the loco to be released. I absolutely understand the issues with releasing a new product that's manufactured by someone else. I've got plenty to keep me busy - when it comes, it comes. It's just that I get like a little kid just before Christmas, anticipating its arrival. There's something about getting a new locomotive that makes me tingly all over.....well, maybe that's going too far.
Eddie_walters wrote: I'm not trying to say it's not frustrating - it definitely is and it feels like I've been waiting for the I1 FOREVER, but my point is that there are two sides to the story and there's no way that PCM are doing this intentionally. Every model company (and every company) wants to produce what people want, but I find it hard to blame a company that's just ensuring there's market before investing such a large chunk of money.
Eddie,
When PCM first showed up on the scene, they called themselves an N scale company. The started by announcing the E7 and the M1. The M1 was to be the first-ever mass-prodcuced DCC & sound equipped N scale steamer.
We rejoiced.
With some delay, the E7 came out. We rejoiced. We waited patiently for the M1.
Suddenly PCM started popping out HO models. This despite PCM being a division of BLI, whichj already made HO models. Fine. We kept waiting for the M1 in N scale. Some were also awaiting the H2 hoppers, the E8, and the PAs in N.
Yet the years wore on, and we N scalers were treated to a whole host of reasons for the delays. Everything from "we changed factories" to "we didn't like the first sound system we tried" to the current "not enough pre-orders." It's been over 3 years. Almost four.
In that same span of time, Athearn announced and actually produced 2 N scale DCC & sound steamers.
Am I bitter? You're darned right I am.
We in N scale Pennsy land had been hoping for a savior manufacturer to bring us RTR Pennsy steam. PCM promised to be that. But they've turned out to be a false prophet.
In the meantime, through their stalling, excuses, and unrealistic expectations of willingness of people to pre-order a product they no longer trust, they've essentially shut the door on RTR Pennsy steam in N.
So I do blame PCM for screwing us in favor of the HO market. I know money makes the world (and the hobby) go 'round, but I'm pretty angry about PCM all the same.
Maybe in HO world, PCM seems reputable. In N scale they've really screwed up.
Dave,
I really feel your pain - I've waited for products that have never seemed to arrive before and it's mighty frustrating. However, your suggestion that PCM were an "N scale company from the start" is a bit off base. I just checked back - the absolute first iteration of the PCM website is here: http://web.archive.org/web/20050216205247/http://www.precisioncraftmodels.com/
The first two models announced were the DB Pacific in HO and the EMD F unit in N. I think the point of starting PCM was to differentiate between the QSI sound in the BLI models and the ESU sound in the PCM locos.
I really hope that the M1a does get produced in N, but to say that they started out as an N scale company and then "betrayed" the N scale guys by going to HO is a bit off base. It migh have been the same problem as arose with the I1sa - that the M1a was going to be produced at the same factory as the I1sa, and then lost its slot when they moved factories. It was definitely frustrating to see the NH I-5 and Big Boy produced before the I1 when the I1 was announced first, but I can understand why it happened. Again, I'm not saying that all is perfect, I'm just trying to show that there are two sides to every story.
Ed
All you njeed to do is wander around some of the N scale forums out there to notice immediately that I am far from the only person that feels betrayed by PCM. Heck, just read PCM's own N scale forums. There is some hardcore bitterness there.
More than simply failing to deliver a product (that happens some time, I know), PCM has pretty much made sure no one else (I'm thinking Bachmann Spectrum, Athearn, MTH?) will attempt N scale Pennsy steam. So yeah, I feel betrayed. And I don't think I'm off base.
Insiders tell me PCM expected an HO-sized preorder for the M1. Duh. They're just ain't as many of us N scalers. To say nothing of the fact that now people are canceling their preorders in droves because they don't want to have to sit on a sizebale chunk of hobby money for a product that may never come out.
Nevertheless, PCM billed itself as the first company to offer N scale steam with sound. They failed at that. Athearn beat them to it (I know, Athearn is much bigger).
Maybe I'd be more understanding had not PCM changed their story every 6 months as to why the M1 was delayed. Or maybe if they'd been more honest about expectations, instead of waiting until the delivery date crept up to push it. Or maybe if they would just freakin' say "WE STILL NEED XYZ PRE-ORDERS in order to afford the tooling."
Maybe if we could see a pilot model.
Maybe.
But I doubt it.
For me it was slightly different. They were producing quality QSI equippted engines that the only fault I could find was dummy front couplers. Thier service was and apparently still is second to none. They pull well on the track that matters to me.
In fact this DCC stuff is KEWL!
That was then.
I waited faithfully for this engine and visited the webpage weekly for updates. I told my store I will be buying this engine and for a time bothered with fire and zeal to take this engine home and run the wheels off it.
When I saw the date swing from Nov of 07 this year to TBD (Usually the kiss of death) or... WINTER of 08... I told my storekeep. Cancel that &^%$ engine. Now I see dates much sooner. But I could care less now. I use the money for other things availible now from other manufacters.
There were about 5 engines total held up in the last 24 months or so. About a even thousand dollars worth of potential sales to PCM.
POOF. Canceled. Just as well. That thousand vanished to the rest of the hobby budget which had a pretty good year this year. It was a great year.
Im not happy about it and got over it. Would I buy another PCM engine? Probably. But only if it is availible to ship TODAY. Or off ebay.
There. I make life simple in the roundhouse today. Fewer units to maintain and service.
A company once got me into DCC with it's wonderful sound and quality. Only time will tell the rest of the story.
They need to forget about 400 dollar pricing. Aint happening. They helped to prove it or hurt it with the blow outs from FDT.
If they have trouble with China making engines? Then they need to build a plant there in Florida and make it happen.
The company needs to settle down and readopt QSI, I dont mind paying the extra 30 dollars or whatever it is for that brand in the BLI/PCM engines. I know what Im getting and how to work it. My gut feeling is to stay way from the Blueline. Im not wasting a dollar on it.
At least the Pre-order-o-meter in bright primary colors were pulled down. That one item was the worst insult to my understanding of how many people it takes to make a production run of engines. Instead it only drives more quesitons... how many units of a item is considered a minimum production run? 1000? 5000? Certainly not much more than 15 or 20 thousand. that's what? 3 containers on a ship stacked with thousands>?
Oh no, that information is a big secret see? Joe Publics like me dont get to know about these numbers see?
There isnt any point going any further. Only they alone know what is happening inside the building. No one else. I dont have a problem with it.
But performance compared to all the other manufacters is pretty poor. That needs fixing. The problem is, do they have the money and the sales to make it happen?
I dont know. Do you?
But I will say this...
This whole experience taught me alot about what it takes to get a engine to the nice Hobby Shop.
I will add this...
I've come close, but I haven't canceled my pre-order. I still want to see the M1 made, and I don't want it to be canceled because I didn't do my part. I don't have the cash to pre-order a dozen; one's all I can set enough money aside for (and still enjoy the hobby right now).
Why am I building an M1 myself? The obvious reason is because I need one. A 1956 PRR Middle Division without an M1 4-8-2 is like a post-war Rio Grande Southern without a Galloping Goose; it's unconvincing.
The other reason? Because I'm counting on the Law of Model Railroading Irony. That law states in part that as soon as a modeler has finished scracthbuilding or kitbashing a complex prototype, that same model will be released commercially.
I want a PCM M1a/b because it'll be a darned-sight more accurate than my kitbashed "foobie." If my building one myself creates that cosmic force that brings PCM to finish theirs, I will have done all of us N scale Pennsy guys a favor!
PCM/BLI is an entity to beware of. They entered the N Scale Community with lots of promises of sound and DCC, never before heard of performance, rare and never offered steam and fleets of finely detailed hoppers.
What it came down to was, the first locomotive produced ended up being sold at fire sale prices along with the brass yard tower. I still get emails from FDT on the E8's.
The fleets of hoppers (48 different #'s) and PRR M1's were delayed by a change in factories, then there were the production changes for inferior material, then not enough pre-orders, the preorder-o-meter and then the TBD delivery date. All of this while still soliciting pre-orders and never showing a pre-production model of the several other models offered.
Wait until the HO Community order numbers drop below thier production threshhold. After they string you along for a few years, with ever changing versions of "we aint going to make it", you might be bitter too.
I took the $1200.00 reserved for all 8 sets of N&W H2a hoppers and plunked it down on a brass DM&IR Yellowstone. With the change, I took the MRS. to dinner a few times. Atlas will probably make enough ore hoppers for me to drag, before PCM makes another model in N Scale.
Bob