Hello, my name is Ken, I live near Lansing, MI. Im diving back into the model railroad world... Heres my story...
My dad was into MRR real heavy and at one time I followed down the same path, but then girls and cars came along, then I lost interest... Well, I now have both a great woman, (two to be exact with the birth of my daughter) and My 65 Mustang. So, those needs in my life have been filled...So, Im wanting to start another hobby... Trains instantly popped into my head. With that said, I need to start all over again. My dad had a huge layout.... Not going light on the huge part, he added an addition onto our house just for his trains... when he had overgrown the house, he claimed our garage... the whole thing. From watching him I know it can be addictive, so I know I will have to be careful. When I played with trains as a kid, it was just me setting up my Tyco snap together track on the livingroom floor. I didnt know how to create a town, or country scenery. Id just roll my matchbox cars up to the track and pretend the best I could.
Well, now that I have the brain power(i think) I'd like to have a life-like layout. I know I'll need patience, cash, more patience and tons more cash... Either way, I want to create a nice layout, I have enough room for about 3 4'x8' sheets of plywood area, give or take a little. Anyways, Id also like to have multi-levels(Mountain- down to a town scene).
Ill have a ton of questions, and all though I have had some experience, Id call myself a rookie, so please bear with me. I can build things, as I stated before I have a 65 Mustang, I restored from the ground up, so Im decent with my hands and know what it takes to take on a big project.
Ill be going with HO scale...
So I guess I need to start with the materials and trains I want. For the layout, what does everyone recommend for construction materials? Id like for the train to climb, I know it has to be a gradually done, but dont know how much. (mountains, bridges, towns, will be used.)
What brand of trains should I buy? I guess, Id say, please rate the brand names.
I want the towns to be well lit and the scenery looking real, any do's and don'ts?
I guess thats enough for now, Ill wait for your responses and poke around the board.
Ken Bayard
Hi Ken;
I'll let the experts here on the forum answer most of your questions, but I'll throw in this advice...Budget yourself and start with one 4 X 8, and add on as you can rack up a big outlay of cash rather quickly.
Plan your layout. I marked ours out on the floor of the garage before I ever bought a piece of track. It worked out better in the long run. I planned ours for portability as it gets moved around quite a bit.
There are many choices in locos and running stock, and I'm not the one to give advice on what's best in HO. Again, I'll leave that to someone else to answer better.
Good luck and have fun...
Bob Berger, C.O.O. N-ovation & Northwestern R.R. My patio layout....SEE IT HERE
There's no place like ~/ ;)
Hello back from SE Michigan.. The 4x8 is a great place to learn the basics, and even get pretty involved but before you go setting up 3x 4x8 tables (unless it has to be portable), look here..
http://www.rolleiman.com/trains/clinic2p1.html
Build a warchest. Call it 200 dollars or so. Set it aside.
That way you can pounce on the limited run, soon to never be made anymore, never again sold items.
There is alot more.
Enjoy the journey.
Welcome to the forum. I started back with the same story less than three years ago. I finaly had a good space and assurance that I would not be moving again. I designed what I always wanted and started building. It turned out to be two 4x8s connected with a 20 foot shelf section. I am doing L girder tables, flextrack on WS foam roadbed and mostly foam scenery. I am having the time of my life.
My advice, build what you like the most first. I obviously like scenery. Get a plan, build a few kits and lay some track. I will tell you about DCC when you ask.
Keep us posted, we are all learning this together.
Click on my pics in my sig to see what I have wraught in 2 1/2 years.
Hi Ken,
First off Back. The best bet is to read, read and read again on this forum the past posts. Then go to some open houses at nearby clubs and ask questions. It will take some time to learn but it is worth it in the end and it will save you a lot of cash.
Hope it helps.
Frank
"If you need a helping hand, you'll find one at the end of your arm."
Visit the nearest hobbyshop and peruse the Walthers catalog and or pick one up.
They are online but to me browsing thru gives plenty of inspiration.
Basically making a layout starts with a dream, a goal of what you want to do with it. You want multi-level with mountains down to a town. What kind of railroad does this? is a good basic question to ask. There are many ways to go about building a layout, from simple tabletop 4x8 style to the more serious Club-like construction. Genearally if your going to do multi-level your going to do some form of wood framework to support the layout. L-Girder style has been a popular form and flexible for quality layout building.
For me for a layout has been always to make the N&W heavy coal drags up and down the mountains with pusher service and my many railroad interests has added more to my concept, and in a small space indeed. Theres a ton you can do for a layout its neverending. But keeping the dream is the must.
Welcome to the forum. You can learn a lot in this forum and in the Model Railroader online articles. And right at this time of year, a lot of train shows are going on. Go and see all the different product that are available and the club layouts on display.
Welcome to the forum.
You can learn a lot in this forum and in the Model Railroader online articles. And right at this time of year, a lot of train shows are going on. Go and see all the different product that are available and the club layouts on display.
Ken - One thing that you should do is visit the Lansing Model Railroad Club when they have an open house or consider joining the club. Google for their web site. You can get a ton of ideas just by looking at other layouts and as others have posted, reading articles in the various model railroad publications.
One thing to keep in mind as a beginner is to start small. I can't emphasized this enough. By starting small you are starting with a manageable project that most, if not all aspects of it, can be completed. By tackling a project that is too large, for example your space for three 4x8 sheets, you stand a chance of turning a fun project into a major job which can, and often times will, take the enjoyment out of it.
That's what happened to me. For more than twenty years I was purchasing everything HO - locomotives, rolling stock, building kits, track, etc. - in the hope that one day I would build another layout. My wife let me have a spare 10 x 13 bedroom, now known as the Man Room, a couple of years ago and I began construction of a wall mounted shelf switching layout around three walls. After completion of the benchwork and backdrop on the roughly 18" deep shelf, I began to layout the track plan. I worked and worked and worked on the design but never made any progress because I felt overwhelmed, even with only thirty or so linear feet of layout. It just was beginning to feel like I would never get anywhere. So I stopped work on it and thought about it for a few months.
I decided to sell off all my HO stuff on eBay and used the proceeds to purchase two-rail O-scale. My thought was that O is so much larger that it takes less 'stuff' to fill the space. Now I'm really happy with my decision and have been making a lot of progress. I finally got the overall track plan designed and once a curved turnout that I ordered arrives this week I'll begin laying the track. The fun is definately back.
So consider starting with one 4x8 sheet. Consider ripping it down the middle to create a 2x8. You can pack a lot of action into a 2x8 space in HO. Butted end-to-end, 16' of length in HO would make a great industrial switching area that can be expanded upon later. A narrow space can be easily reached to work on, too, as well as keeping the initial cost down. Obviously what you do with the benchwork design is determined by whether or not you want to have the ability to run trains continuously or whether you are most interested in switching operations. I'm partial to switching so a shelf layout is ideal for me.
If you start small think about how you may expand the layout later and incorporate those ideas into your intial track plan from the get go. This approach will enable you to make progress while at the same time dream about the future. It's a good balance and not a bad approach, in my opinion.
One last point - the benchwork (framework) is the foundation of the layout. Take your time with this and don't cheap out on the components. You don't have to spend a fortune but don't purchase the cheapest wood, either. Also make sure to seal the wood with some sort of eurethane based sealer or stain. Since you are located in Michigan the changes in humidity levels throughout the year will expand and contract wood and if your framework isn't sealed it will expand and contract to a greater degree. This can cause all sorts of track problems and derailments and is something to avoid.
Have fun and enjoy your new hobby!
Before you spend any money get an idea of what you want to build & set reasonable goals. I may have missed a few items & I ask my fellow model railroaders to fill in the blanks. Also the order below may not be perfect but I tried to cover most of the things one must consider when building a layout. Remember do not take on too much to soon or you will get burned out. Sometime less is more (less yards, less sidings, less building ect)
First, thanks for all the replies. I know what it's like to give the same answers every other day to newbies on a forum. I own and operate a website for Mustang owners here in the state of Michigan. http://www.michiganmustang.com if anyone is interested.
Ok, I've done a ton of reading here and arround the net, I've aslo contacted a few people from the board. Ive also taken a look through a few peoples photo albums. I see what everyone is talking about in the size of a layout, using just 4x8 sheet vs. a shelf style 2x8. I still want to go a larger layout, I know I wont be happy with just a 4x8 sheet. I want to run 10-12 maybe 15 cars beween my loco and the caboose. As for era, I like the more modern locomotives, at least to start, so Ill gear most of my purchases towards that. I really do not need to model it after a certain place, I think for the most part it will all be made up, like Pine Stump Junction (Yes I know there is allready a Pine Stump Junction) Anyways, you get my drift...
Im good with wood, for the most part, I own a table saw, miter saw, circular saw, jig saw, scroll saw, routers and so on... So I should not have an issue building the base/structure of the layout. What I will have to learn is the detail portion of the scenery. Ive done model cars, airplains and even a 4' aircraft carrier, but I haven't done the sculpting side of things. That will be the fun part for me.
Id like the train to run the length of my display without needing to be turned around, from what I have read, Ill need to have at least 4' on each end to do so. So, most likely it will look like a dog bone(forgive me for not knowing all the terms yet. Id also like to have a small switching yard, a mining station and a big tresel bridge. Those are my must haves for building structures.
I will visit a show or two, and maybe the Lansing club or another in the state. Seeing layouts upclose will get me better prepared for my task ahead. I think I will visit the local hobby hub. There used to be a Ryders Hobby Shop, The Hobby Hub and one more I cant remember. Who knows if they are still in business. Someone mentioned Just 4 Fun, I'll have to look it up.
Ok, now for power, I see all over this board you are talking about DCC... as well as Art mentioned it. I read up on it, I like it... I'd like to be able to operate more then one loco at a time on the same track system. Im still a little foggy on what else you can do with it... But I'm sure I'll learn quickly. I have time yet to figure it out, Ill keep reading here.
I've downloaded the layout program from atlas, as well as the other one, its a bit frustrating, sense the options are so primative, but I'll keep trying it. Anyways, I need to come up with something for a layout, but for the most part I know what features I want, so I'll work on my "vision".
I guess I,ll go see if I can locate some buildings to put together. Start pricing track and so on... Would Ebay be recommended?
I talked to my mother and she had said that there was one of my fathers old foot lockers with a few trains left in it, so I'll have to take a look to see what goodies are there.
As for the Buckeyes, better them then Michigan! You see, I'm a Spartan! But I must say, looks like your boys back their way into the championship game. Now I hope they can prove they deserve to be there. Either way, it's basketball season, and my spartys look good to make another run in march.
Thanks again,
Before I forget it, I want to welcome you to visit my layout when you get to the AnnArbor -Brighton area. My home is about halfway in-between. 9841 Hamburg Rd. Brighton, MI 48116 Phone: (810)231-2171 One place to look for track ideas is Space Mouse 4'x8' layout contest. I happen to be one of the lucky ones, who built a 24'x24' garage, with an inside stairway to a loft (for my PLANNED around the room layout) I started out on one wall with a "dogbone", but I installed the required "unused" turnouts for my planned expansion. This way I did not have to rip up any ballasted track, to construct the expansion. You mentioned a trunk full of old RR stuff. I started my present railroad with about 100 structures from my previous HO railrod. Be careful about old locomotives. They may draw too much amperage for your DCC future layout. I happened to have a number of old low 4 drawer dressers to add to my present layout, (for support and storage.) Be sure that your structure is strong enough to support you weight, (if necessary!) For harbor areas, I used two inverted (free)"industrial pallets", They are extremely strong and the slats on the bottom, make a good support for the harbor base. I would suggest that you attend "Model railroad flea markets", before buying anything. They,also, often have operating model RR layouts, where you can get a world of free information. If you intend to eventually go DCC, be careful about buying locomotives at a flea market (or LHS),(they are usually getting rid of old DC "only" locos! Be sure that they are "DCC Ready". This means that they are DC locos, with easy attachments for "plug-in decoders". I waited for DCC to come down in price, before I purchased a Digitrax Super Chief. For most railroads of moderate size, the Digitrax Zepher (or comparable other DCC brands),are adequate The wonderful part about DCC is that most DC railroad trackage connections and wiring are compatable. As to the wiring; I would suggest that you plan for several "Power districts", that isolate various parts of the layout, in case of a "short". Although this may be overdoing it, I suggest that you run the #14 "bus" under your layout, and attach #20 wire "feeders" to every section of track. Silver-nickel track and rail joiners are relatively poor conductors. Get Kalmbach books on all subjects of interest. Nuff said! Bob Hahn
Bob, thanks for the invite, I will take you up on the offer, but it will have to wait until after the holidays.
Ok, some questions, and please everyone chime in.
1. Ok, everyone uses the connecting clips for the track sections? Id like to solder them, does it matter what kind of solder is used?
2. Type of track recommended? Ive read that most use code 100, but what type of metal? I believe there are a few choices.
3. When you reach a bridge, do you cut a piece of wood the width of your road bed(cork) and build the bridge around it or do you just bring the bridge up to meet the cork? or do you just run the track without wood and cork? Did that confuse anyone? hmmmm....
4. Should I lay out the track on the top sheet of wood before I build the legs and braces so bracing does not interfear with wiring holes?
5. When building a valley/gorge in the middle of a layout(where it would drop lower then the table top) is there any thing I should NOT do in the construction portion of it?
6. What is the material used to create "model" water? Is it just a 2 part bar top finish? Or the stuff you finish a picnic table with? Or something else all together?
7. How much power do you use? As in for lighting, switches and other gadgets?
8. I still have no idea how much track Ill be running, but lets say I have the 3 - 4x8 sheets of wood covered moderately with track/lines... How big of controller will I need, will I need a dcc booster or are the boosters for huge layouts? I cant see myself running more then 3 trains at once, most likely only 2. Any do's and donts?
9. Any items I should stay away from all together? Certain controller? Brand of building? so on and so on?
I guess this is enough for now, it should get some ideas going in my head, and help with my shopping lists.
Thanks for everyones help, I can see thie will become a VERY useful site.
Ken
About track, you want Nickel Silver. Brass track gets dirty very quickly, as with steel.
Good luck!
Ken-
The nearest hobby shop to you is Michigan Model Train Center, at 9260 McGregor Road, on the south edge of Portage Lake, between Pinckney and Dexter. Skip McDonald, who owns the shop, knows the area model RR clubs very well and can probably line you up with a good group. There is an active round-robin group in Brighton, and the Lansing-area N-Trak guys (http://www.lantrak.org/) meet at the former C&O Howell depot which has been moved to the fairgrounds in Fowlerville.
Division 5 of the North Central Region of the NMRA is a very active group which meets at the library in downtown Lansing on the second Saturday afternoon of each month. They're starting a series of clinics on scratchbuilding billboards. At their meeting on January 12, I'll be giving a clinic on using computer graphics programs to make convincing billboard artwork.
My own club, Rails on Wheels (http://www.railsonwheels.com), is a modular club based in the Ann Arbor-Saline area, but draws members from as far north as Owosso and Hartland. Our secretary lives near Webberville, just off of M-52, a couple miles south of I-96. You can find our meeting information on our web site. We welcome guests to all of our meetings.
-Fritz Milhaupt, Publications Editor, Pere Marquette Historical Society, Inc.http://www.pmhistsoc.org
I am back to answer your questions. Strangely" enough, although I have laid 240 yds. of track + 102 electric switches, and have nearly completed my scenery, I have yet to complete the wiring, and have never actually run a train around my entire layout. A Spring visit, might be better. My layout is a complete mess at present, because I am completing the wiring. I'm a scenery buff. To answer your questions:
(1) Especially, in the changing humidity and temperature of Michigan, DO NOT solder every joiner,(or your track will buckle). I solder connecting wire loops between every third joiner and will have "feeder wires " soldered to every section of track. The #18 or #20 solid feeders are connected to the #14 "bus wire" below with "suitcase connecters" (Be sure to get those which match the size of the two wires), or solder, if you so desire. The loops mentioned above and the suitcase connectors, prevent trouble of unsoldering joiners and wires, and allow for easy rearrangement. Never solder joiners to switches directly, or you will have a difficult time if you later want to change the position of a switch.
(2)Many suggest using Code 83 for main lines and code 100 for yards (mainly because yard switches are often #4 or #6 (small radius turnouts for switchers, but not for long locos. If you wish to join code 83 to code 100 track, there are special "adaptor joiners" that are slightly offset to make the tops of the rails continuous, at the same height. Incidentally, if you are going to include a yard, I have found that instead of the usual "ladder" of sequential turn outs, I use a Y and then attach two more Ys to the prongs of the first Y, to form a four track yard. I also make use of "double-slip switches within the yard, so that the switcher has access to all four tracks, and can adjust freight cars without pulling or pushing them onto the mainline. If possible make a long "drill track approach to a yard" so that the switcher does not tie up the mainline. Train length pass through "run around tracks" on the main line are essential, to allow higher priority trains to pass slow freights. One other point. Make your stub-end spurs long enough to handle the "drop off" freight cars, by backing the cars onto the spurs. Kaydee Magnetic couplers allow one to "uncouple" magnetically. If possible, use pass through sidings.
(3) As Tyler says,"No brass rails" Most modern track is silver-nickel (which is only a relatively good conductor) Joiners are notoriously poor conductors, due to oxidation. I am using some reclaimed brass, but may have to replace it, since it oxodizes rapidly. It is usually code 100 track. Use resin core colder and flux on "clean track". You heat the track hot enough to melt the solder. Don't touch the soldering iron to the solder. (Acid core solder is a no,no!).
(4) Screw your layout top in place "first". Feeder holes can be drilled anywhere where there are no legs of cross struts. When you buy a bridge kit, they often have a piece of code 83 track included, which is mounted on closely spaced ties. Hook up this track to the track on each side. Finally, adjust the height of the bridge abutment to the bottom of the ties.
(5) My gorges are cut through the front "facia", and are framed "frontless box-like structures" that are screwed to the underside of the layout. One neat trick is to use old kitchen drawers with slides, so that you can gain access to inaccessable areas behind. I mentioned that I used inverted industrial pallets for large harbors or lake areas, or merely cut out the layout surface and build a framed depression, with a bottom.
(6) I happen to use "Magic Water" (which is a two solution mix) $28/2-3ft. river, with cascades Some prefer to use glossy varnish, or other brands of commercial model water-making material. Try out what you suggest to see if it works.
(7) Overhead lighting, is separate (of course!) If you have an old transformer in the trunk, try it out for structure lighting, signals, etc. Be sure that it does not overheat. DCC Control wiring must be separate,although, the Contol box usually has Auxillary conections for signals, etc.
(8) I happen to use Digitrax Super Chief which has one booster as part of same box. Do not mix brands. Don't rush out to buy extra "Boosters". They may not be necessary.
(9) As far as the No, Nos! I'll leave that for othersto answer. I would suggest that you frst stick to plastic Styrene Atlas model kits.(which require special glue) "Bar Mills" has laser cut wooden kits, that are very realistic, but much harder to construct. If you donot buy DCC "equipped" locos, at least buy DCC "Ready" locos, so that you can use "pug-in" decoders.
Bob Hahn
do you think your looking at a serious 2 level layout? or try to keep it all at one level?
Once you know your space area better you may be able to tinker on things. You might think of the idea of a layout that grows, gets you running sooner, but able to add on later.
You might make a totally level dogbone then add your mountain running later. Definately play with the planning software to help work out ideas.
I'll say right off if you can avoid 18" radius curves and think 24" or higher your better off.
I'm in the planning stages of my new layout, and my goals are set like this, 24" or higher, except for industrial areas where it can go 18" or 15" radius.
First, thanks for the compliments on my Mustang Website, it also is another "hobby" of mine, web design. It helps I love Mustangs as much as I do, it helps drive me in making it what it is. I also have a great bunch that help.
Ok, back to my quest for the "Holy Rail"(I know, poor atempt at a railroad joke.)
First HHPATH56, I wouldnt mind to see your project while its in its building process, I might understand a bit more on how it comes together.
Dinwitty, I want the track to cross over itself. Most likely in the gorge area, where the two bridges would cross it. Im not worried about it running tomorrow. Im sure I will grow more anxious as I get closer to having it done to have my "toys" moving supplies, ore, people or what ever else I come up with. So, I plan on it taking more time to finish if it means I get what I want. I do plan on making it possible for future add-ons by making "feeders".
TrainManTy, Silver Nickle it is... Any certain brand? Atlas? other? Other then my turn-outs, do you recommend any of the other pre-built track peices? I'm hoping to use mostly the 3' flex track. I think it will look cleaner and leave a less of a chance it would have a dead spot... Or am I wrong?
I need to learn what grade is, not what it means, but what degree is 1% or 5%... Or is it that simpe? 1% is 1 degree from horizon(180 degrees?) If so, whats the max I can climb? Again, I want to pull 10-15 cars...
I'd reccomend Atlas, it's not as detailed as Peco and other $$$ (expensive, not swearing) brands, but it doesn't cost as much. It's a good trade off between cost and detail. I beleive it's one of the most popular brands of track. I'd go with either Code 100 or Code 83; Code 83 is more expensive, but better detailed and the rail is more to scale, but Code 100 is cheaper and doesn't look that different with proper wethering.