Short time reader, first time poster ...
So, I am now gainfully employed (read: out of school) and my wife was getting annoyed with me being home with nothing to do on weekends, days off, etc. She suggested "get a hobby"... Well, I found one that I remember enjoying a few years back (like 16-20 years back) when I was a kid. So, here I am. I have been looking at posts for awhile, many questions answered, a few still to be answered, not all posted here.
First a background: I have some HO stuff (we won't mention brand, think old, cheap, ends in co), but for now that seems to work just fine with code 100. The locos were dirty and were not functional (not a big suprise, been sitting in a basement in a box for those 16-20 years). Well, wanted to run at least a train, so got a good deal on a quality loco, so now I can run trains. Because of this, despite current lack of significant space, I will continue in HO and not scrap it for N. I was looking at staying code 100 (mainly due to compatibility with current track). First question: any strong advantage to staying with code 100 or switching to code 83 other than that I am remarkably cheap?
I am looking at doing a little early Conrail modeling (I know, early is relative term). Haven't firmly decided on industries yet, but am trying to decide. Already was planning a 4x8, but read enough on here about limitations, decided didn't want to do that. I am currently in an apartment, and plan to officially start the layout construction once we move in a few months. I have a few 2'x4' panels of OSB, so am flexible. Thinking about doing a 6'x10' layout with a 2'x6' or so pit in the middle. While I don't know size of room this will be going into, I do know that I have cages for some pets which are big enough to be sure that I will have room for it in my office/pet/train/storage room of the future. Any problems this kind of setup? Will a 2' wide pit be adequate for moving around in, working in?
For layout: planning on 22" mainline radius with the oft maligned sectional track. I am looking at Atlas for cheaper prices outlook with quality associated. I plan on doing my own roadbed, so don't want to do a Truetrack or equivalent. What other track makers are out there and do any of them make a larger radius sectional for relatively same cost of Atlas?
I guess I will start there, trying to get an idea of what I am biting off before I start chewing. Much appreciated for all the advice I am sure to get. Thanks
I'll offer what I can-
as for the 2' pit size being large enough...... I suggest doing a mock up of some sort with what ever you have. Don't bother with the track yet, just find some things that will resemble your layout table and set the up on boxes, chairs, whatever is handy. Adjust the pit until you can work/walk/move without banging into the edges.
My LHS offers roughly equal amount of items in both 83 and 100. Notice I said roughly! I've also read somewhere that they make rail joiners to go from 83 to 100. This area would need a slight shim under the roadbed (on the 83 side) so your track does not spring.
I personaly would skip on the sectional track and go with flextrack. With sectional you'll need some trial and error fitting to get where you wish. Flex on the other hand is.....well....flexible. this route allows you to lay a 23" or 21" radius, whatever fits.
Welcome to the forum
(And back to the hobby.) Is your old track brass? The newer track is nickle silver and is a whole bunch easier to maintain. Have you considered a point to point type of layout. This type is very suitable for an apartment and can be added to a larger layout as space becomes available.
I think Atlas makes sectional track in larger than 22" R.
73
Bruce in the Peg
Welcome to the forum. When I was your age, I got back into HO for about the same reasons. I did not have much money then, so I built with what I had. It was not as nice as I have now, 3 layouts and 40 years later, but it was what I could build and afford. You have to use what you have. My suggestions:
1. Build what you like first, for this will not the the final end product.
2. Build everything movable, if not portable.
3. Don't ever let the good stuff go, even if you think you are quiting sometime down the future.
4. Don't worry about getting it perfect, just get it up and running in a way you like. Even John Allen didn't get it right until the third extension. Because I like sceney the best, my current layout is the first one that ever ran very well. Others will get the first one to run, and may never get to much sceney.
5. Have fun, we all get enough stress on our jobs.
Atlas supposedly makes 24" radius pieces in code 83 (but not code 100) sectional track, although I have never seen it in a hobby shop.
It is probably easier to lay a smooth curve using 22" sectional track rather than flex, especially Atlas flex. Just take the time to get your eyes down at rail level and sight along the rails for even the slightest misalignment at the joints. Adjust until it's right, then fasten the track.
On the straights and small fitter curves is where I recommend first trying flex track. One piece of flex can replace up to 4 9" straight pieces and their joints. And the flex track will give you a much smoother and better looking curve than fitting small curved pieces of sectional track.
For me, a 24" wide pit would be too narrow. I'm planning mine to be 36" wide, but then I'm a wide kind of guy. As suggested, mocking up in advance would be prudent to know if 24" is sufficient.
yours in having fun
Fred W
Welcome to the forum, and back to the hobby!
One question that could drive several decisions: Do you like the super-long freight cars, such as auto racks and 89ft intermodal flats? If so, you'll need at least 30" radius curves for them to operate reliably and not yank shorter adjoining cars off the rails. That is why, when I returned to mrr 20 years ago, I never built a 4x8.
Another thing to consider: There are several excellent track planning software tools available, including XtrkCAD (available for free) and 3dPlanIt. This will not only give you better-looking drawings, they'll help you identify potential problem spots (such as too-tight radius curves).
-Ken in Maryland (B&O modeler, former CSX modeler)
petvet wrote:First question: any strong advantage to staying with code 100 or switching to code 83 other than that I am remarkably cheap?
Any problems this kind of setup? Will a 2' wide pit be adequate for moving around in, working in?
What other track makers are out there and do any of them make a larger radius sectional for relatively same cost of Atlas?
petvet wrote:Short time reader, first time poster ... First question: any strong advantage to staying with code 100 or switching to code 83 other than that I am remarkably cheap?
First question: any strong advantage to staying with code 100 or switching to code 83 other than that I am remarkably cheap?
Welcome to the forum, and to the greatest hobby!
As mentioned, code 100 is sturdier. It also requires a bit more work to disquise its size a bit. It scales out to be the very largest of rail the prototype ever used (think Pennsy 4-track main thru Horseshoe Curve)- quite a bit larger than the average. That said, it's what I use on my layout.
Some parameters to be aware of: The average human male can reach across 2' of layout at most, depending on the height of the layout. This gets rapidly shortened by structures and scenery that must be reached over. Choose your layout height carefully. Too high, and it becomes hard to reach up under the layout (wiring, switch machines, etc.) while sitting on the floor. Too short, same problem. A 2-foot "pit" is workable, if you're young and limber, and don't mind crawling under one side of the layout. I'm not, so I made a swing gate.
Be aware, the sectional track is "oft maligned" with reason. Rail joiners, while necessary, are the bane of model railroaders when it comes to electrical connectivity. You will cause yourself no end of aggravation down the line by pinching pennies now. 22" minimum is pretty tight, and will limit you as to the locomotives and cars you can run on it. I would recommend at least a 26" minimum, which will let you run medium steam and six-axle diesels. Also, if you are not already handy with one, get familiar with a soldering iron or gun - you'll need it. I would recommend Atlas code 100 flex track. Bullet proof, and relatively cheap. I picked up twice what I needed for my layout at a train show, used, for about $30 back in '02.
It's a big mouthful for sure, but one that can be chewed, if you don't try to do it all at once. I would suggest a modular approach while you're still in an apartment, and plan on hooking them together once you're in a house. Above all, have fun with it!
---
Gary M. Collins gmcrailgNOSPAM@gmail.com
===================================
"Common Sense, Ain't!" -- G. M. Collins
http://fhn.site90.net
I use Atlas Code 100 also, mostly old sectional track, (all Nickel Silver) and some flextrack.I would stay away from the longer cars, (autoracks, etc) the longest cars I run are centerbeam cars (70-odd feet) and intermodel well cars. They actually work fine, as they are built to operate on 22" raduis curves (though not well) so as long as my trackwork is good, they'll run.
The Code 100 looks fine as long as it'as weathered, painted, and ballasted. Most of my visiters don't even reailize the size of it! Can you?
Good luck, and !!!!!!
Thanks for replies and advice.
I will look into the pit size. I was wondering about the use of a pit in the first place, but would really like some continuous running besides mild operations, so was also thinking about a liftout or a draw bridge (if I decide to get fancy). Was planning more on working the scenery, though don't know how good (read: bad) it will look, so the modular idea will help a lot too.
I will look into flex track. Just another question, how best to cut the flex track, does a Dremmel with a cutoff wheel work, or is there a better way?
As far as soldering, I am not familiar. A number of questions are popping into my head, probably easier to just say "What do I need to have and need to know?"
Thanks again in advance.
TrainManTy wrote: The Code 100 looks fine as long as it'as weathered, painted, and ballasted. Most of my visiters don't even reailize the size of it! Can you?
Man, I am worried about all you guys talking about the "durability" of Code 100 track
How tough are y'all on track, anyway?
petvet wrote:I will look into flex track. Just another question, how best to cut the flex track, does a Dremmel with a cutoff wheel work, or is there a better way?As far as soldering, I am not familiar. A number of questions are popping into my head, probably easier to just say "What do I need to have and need to know?"Thanks again in advance.
I have used a dremel to cut track but I think a razor saw is better. You might want to invest in the MLR Track tool as well.
http://www.mlrmfg.com/
MLR also has a tool for holding track while soldering. Besides that you will want a 35W soldering iron, one that doesn't get too hot to help avoid melting the ties. You will also want a fine, 1/16" or less diameter solder that has a resin flux core. Also a good idea is a little tube of resin flux for cleaning the joint before soldering. Practice soldering on old rail before trying to solder good rails.
I have a 5x12 foot table layout, which is on wheels so I can move it around the room. That is to maintain peace in the household, as I share the room with the rest of the family and the big TV set. From this experience, I've learned that 2 1/2 feet is the maximum "reach distance" which is practical, and even then, doing work 2 1/2 feet from the edge is marginal.
If you really can devote the room to your layout, then you should consider an around-the-walls plan. For continuous running, you have the option of a loop at each end or a removeable bridge across the doorway. The bridge can be interesting as an operational element of your layout, too.
I'd get XtrakCad from www.sillub.com and start learning to use it. If you find it tough to use, try the RTS program (also free) from www.atlasrr.com instead. It's easier, but less capable, and it's also free. Either way, it's a lot cheaper to make your mistakes on the screen than it is once you start fastening down track. Once you've settled on a methodology for design, even if it's just pencil and paper (and there's nothing wrong with that, either,) then you can try both a table and an around-the-walls plan, and see the virtues of each one.
For cutting track, get a Xuron Rail Nipper. It's a hand tool, like a pair of diagonal cutting pliers, but specifically designed for cutting rails. Don't use it for anything else but rail cutting, and it will last a long time and give you a lot of good, clean cuts.
And most of all, welcome aboard!
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Been awhile since I've posted or even logged in (6-21-06).. See a lot of new(er) names here and glad to see some of the old(er) ones as well. To your questions.. Particularly track. Scrap what you have in the way of that 16-20 year old stuff. Chances are pretty good that the ties are brittle, the rail oxidized beyond recognition of anything that once resembled metal, and it'll frustrate you beyond belief in this 'relaxing' hobby.
The others have given a lot of good advice. If you want to stick with code 100, that's fine, and probably the least expensive option. Go the Flex track route though and stay away from sectional. That way, you'll cut your potential electrical problems by at least 4 times. Spend the extra pennies and get "dcc ready" turnouts (if there's still an option not to) as it will save you a world of headache in wiring as well.
I haven't really updated my website lately but check it out,
http://www.rolleiman.com/trains/index.html
particularly the clinic #2.. It offers some friendly advice to beginners.
Good luck and welcome to the hobby. Frustrating as it will become...
petvet wrote: I will look into flex track. Just another question, how best to cut the flex track, does a Dremmel with a cutoff wheel work, or is there a better way?
http://e-hobbyland.com/railcutters.html
Part Number 2175B
petvet wrote: For layout: planning on 22" mainline radius with the oft maligned sectional track. I am looking at Atlas for cheaper prices outlook with quality associated. I plan on doing my own roadbed, so don't want to do a Truetrack or equivalent. What other track makers are out there and do any of them make a larger radius sectional for relatively same cost of Atlas? I guess I will start there, trying to get an idea of what I am biting off before I start chewing. Much appreciated for all the advice I am sure to get. Thanks
pv:
Sounds like a good start. If you have a bunch of snap-track, go ahead and use it, even brass and steel. I'm doing that right now, because snap-track has one big advantage - you can change the layout easily, since it's in small preformed pieces, and doesn't need to be nailed down. I laid the track without nails and hooked up power with screw terminal sections, then went right to operating, and have changed the plan as I encountered design problems. When these are all gone, I am going to lay down roadbed and flex track. Use the table as an analog trackplan computer.
To clean your old track: "Tyco" tells me "Steel", and probably you also have some brass. Clean these well before using. Rub the railhead with a softwood block saturated in Brasso. Brasso is a polishing compound and also contains a very mild abrasive, probably silica, that will remove stubborn dirt without hurting the surface. Very stubborn pitted spots left after the Brasso treatment respond well to ultrafine sandpaper (600 grit or finer) or crocus cloth.
After cleaning with Brasso, brush the rail ends with a brass brush. Then wipe with an alcohol-dampened rag and dry with a clean cloth. Replace the rail joiners with new ones. Just use NS joiners. Galvanic action will be minimal, and if anything it will only hurt your steel. VBD.
Inspect switches carefully. Clean as described above, then check carefully for electrical-continuity problems or bad parts. Often the small grommets or pieces of metal that bridge the rails near the frog, or the point pivot rivets, will fail to conduct, and you'll get problems. Be careful about wearing away the plastic frog or guardrails while cleaning. Rivets can be squeezed tighter (not too tightly) with a light tap on a punch, backed up with a cutoff nail in a vise. Badly worn guardrails can be carved away and replaced with bent rail, superglued on. Use your NMRA gauge to set the new guardrail. Snap-switch clones probably won't meet all NMRA standards. Don't worry about this unless you get operational problems.
Build a John Allen slider car and run it over your trackwork to reduce dust buildup, which will cause most of your dirty-track problems. Run trains frequently, too. That's the best way to keep track clean.
When using snap-switches with the intent to replace them later, be advised that they are 18" radial type, and will only directly replace with other snap-switches. No. 4s will be close, but you will have to leave room for their more gradual divergence.
You can use your Tyco equipment,too. Why not? Some of their cars are very nice. The 50' flatcar is worth putting new trucks on some time, for example. Don't worry about that just yet. Clean everything up and use it, but the first time problems are evident, put the equipment aside. This will help you sort out the troublemakers, and also help you improve your trackwork, as these cars will most likely find the worst spots. Go back later and find out why the bad ones act up. This may be weight or wheelset problems. Doing so will help you get started quickly, teach you a lot about proper equipment standards, and help you decide what kind of rolling stock you like. Illustration: I bought a handful of Life-Like 40' boxcars at a train show. They actually work pretty well and make great track-cleaning cars, but more importantly, they helped me realize that I really don't like the chunky AAR boxcar design as well as earlier, lower cars, which will affect my choice of era, and save me money when I start buying better-quality stuff.
You can even clean up the wheels of your Tyco engines with alcohol and run 'em. Sure, they're not great, but they'll pull a track-cleaning car until they wear out, and then you can use the bodies in kitbashes. The PowerTorque motor's idler-truck casting makes a great nondescript foundry product in HO if you weather it and add some chalk markings. They're not really worth anything to sell, so you might as well run out those last few miles.
A 2 x 6 pit would be all right for occasional access. A 3 x 6 or 4 x 6 would be more comfortable for operation. Put your benchwork high if you do this, perhaps chest-level, so you will have minimal ducking and a nice view. The 6 x 10 table sounds fine, though personally I find that a 4 x 8 works very well in a room that has to be shared with other purposes. You may find that the access aisles for your animal cages overlap the train aisle.
In general, I'd say that if the choice ever comes up between doing it now with what you have, and waiting for the perfect stuff to come, I'd do it now, while leaving plenty of room for future upgrades. Don't be discouraged if things don't turn out great -- you can always go back and try again, right? In the meantime, you'll have learned things.
BlueHillsCPR wrote: I have used a dremel to cut track but I think a razor saw is better. You will also want a fine, 1/16" or less diameter solder that has a resin flux core. Also a good idea is a little tube of resin flux for cleaning the joint before soldering. Practice soldering on old rail before trying to solder good rails.
I have used a dremel to cut track but I think a razor saw is better.
You will also want a fine, 1/16" or less diameter solder that has a resin flux core. Also a good idea is a little tube of resin flux for cleaning the joint before soldering. Practice soldering on old rail before trying to solder good rails.
That should be "rosin" flux. Radio Shack also has it in tubes, Sears has a liquid version, (better for track soldering). Get a decent 40watt pencil iron ($40-$60), don't skimp here. And practice, practice, practice.
"Xuron" brand rail cutters are the most efficient way to cut rails. You can use them to cut soft wire like brass or copper in addition to rail.
Jay
C-415 Build: https://imageshack.com/a/tShC/1
Other builds: https://imageshack.com/my/albums
Autobus Prime wrote: You can use your Tyco equipment,too. Why not? Some of their cars are very nice. The 50' flatcar is worth putting new trucks on some time, for example. Don't worry about that just yet. Clean everything up and use it, but the first time problems are evident, put the equipment aside. This will help you sort out the troublemakers, and also help you improve your trackwork, as these cars will most likely find the worst spots. Go back later and find out why the bad ones act up. You can even clean up the wheels of your Tyco engines with alcohol and run 'em. Sure, they're not great, but they'll pull a track-cleaning car until they wear out, and then you can use the bodies in kitbashes. The PowerTorque motor's idler-truck casting makes a great nondescript foundry product in HO if you weather it and add some chalk markings. They're not really worth anything to sell, so you might as well run out those last few miles.
You can use your Tyco equipment,too. Why not? Some of their cars are very nice. The 50' flatcar is worth putting new trucks on some time, for example. Don't worry about that just yet. Clean everything up and use it, but the first time problems are evident, put the equipment aside. This will help you sort out the troublemakers, and also help you improve your trackwork, as these cars will most likely find the worst spots. Go back later and find out why the bad ones act up.
Again, everyone, thanks for the advice. I have been occasionally running the trains on my dining room table while doing good cleaning. Took the advice of using the Tyco engines. We can now remove the plural, apparently the old steam loco wasn't a fan of functioning again, and made some of the most beautiful smoke I have seen. So, as was said, a problem is evident, and will be remedied by becoming a very nice ornamental piece.
Well my 2 cents is to use what you have. The thought is you'll change as you gain experience and design where this/that goes on the layout or next one.
As for tools. I used the dremel for cutting track when necessary. A hot glue gun for tacking the track and cork down and running a train in minutes over the section just laid. Then a quick ballast in a few places to hold the whole thing down. I also used the sectional track for curves and soldered the joints together before placing them down. Get a ribbonrail curve gauge or two to check your work and have fun.
modelmaker51 wrote: BlueHillsCPR wrote: I have used a dremel to cut track but I think a razor saw is better. You will also want a fine, 1/16" or less diameter solder that has a resin flux core. Also a good idea is a little tube of resin flux for cleaning the joint before soldering. Practice soldering on old rail before trying to solder good rails. That should be "rosin" flux. Radio Shack also has it in tubes, Sears has a liquid version, (better for track soldering). Get a decent 40watt pencil iron ($40-$60), don't skimp here. And practice, practice, practice."Xuron" brand rail cutters are the most efficient way to cut rails. You can use them to cut soft wire like brass or copper in addition to rail.
Either spelling is correct. It's essentially down to a personal preference.
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/resin