Originally posted by jfugate Brakie: I can only see what you suggest working if everyone plays along. But all you need is one "entrepreneur" type to provide options and your simplistic "one outlet selling model" breaks down. ------------------------------------------ True..However,IF he/she does not have a brick and mortar store then they will have a whale of a time buying anything..As a former part time train show dealer without a brick and mortar shop I could no longer buy Athearn products at wholesale prices.Athearn made up 45% of my sales. Also, I see a total move away from online sales of Model RR goods a giant step backward. Any store/retail outlet/distributor that offers online purchasing capability finds that it dramatically expands their potential market. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No..Just the DEEP DISCOUNTERS not those offering 10-15% discount..In other words no more(say) $99.00 P2K locomotives for $29.95. ------------------------ The online sales model is here to stay, like it or not. In fact I know of one local LHS who found their online sales expanded their market so much that they have completely shut down their brick and mortar operation and now *only* sell online. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Only if the wholesalers will sell to those on line dealers that does not have a brick and mortar store.See what I am getting at? No store? No wholesale buying end of subject from the distributors. --------------------------- Consolidation in the industry to get economies of scale, certainly. One benevolent single source "controlling" the market through only brick and mortar outlets -- not hardly. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Not handy for us for sure.Again it more convenient to the manufacturers that sets the high MSRP and those distributors *could/would* adjust their wholesale prices more closely to the MRSP thus killing the deep discounts that we are enjoying today. Now in all truth I like it is now with the deep discounts.But...I fear those deep discounts is living on borrowed time if the mergers continue and the wholesalers get tough and sell only to the brick and mortar stores regardless if they sell on line or not. I think this is a rather interesting topic and discussion.[:D] Joe,Thanks for your views on a rather important matter that should concern us all.[:D] Larry Conductor. Summerset Ry. "Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!" Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, January 29, 2005 1:33 AM I guess I'm coming in at the last second, so to speak, on this but this is also the first I've heard about this merger. First off, it doesn't surprise me. This merger activity is the current rage, it seems, and is bound to continue as long as people are willing to sell and make MORE money. That's what it's all about anymore. So, the products suffer, the service suffers, the customers suffer. But as to killing off the hobby? I don't think that's very likely. There are absolutely too many talented people in this hobby with more ways and means of continuing or prospering in model railroading to let it slip away. As evidenced in these forums, in MR articles, and other hobby pubs. there is enough ingenuity and creativity to keep it going strong. Besides it would be business suicide to make it impossible for hobbyists to pursue their chosen modeling hobby. Still, you have to wonder not only when it will end but how far they are willing to go before a stop is put to it or the company realizes they've gone too far. Don't know if this is a contribution or just babbling. I DO know it's frustrating! Reply Edit jfugate Member sinceJanuary 2002 From: Portland, OR 3,119 posts Posted by jfugate on Thursday, January 27, 2005 11:56 AM Brakie: I can only see what you suggest working if everyone plays along. But all you need is one "entrepreneur" type to provide options and your simplistic "one outlet selling model" breaks down. Also, I see a total move away from online sales of Model RR goods a giant step backward. Any store/retail outlet/distributor that offers online purchasing capability finds that it dramatically expands their potential market. The online sales model is here to stay, like it or not. In fact I know of one local LHS who found their online sales expanded their market so much that they have completely shut down their brick and motar operation and now *only* sell online. Consolidation in the industry to get economies of scale, certainly. One benevolent single source "controlling" the market through only brick and mortar outlets -- not hardly. Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon Reply BRAKIE Member sinceOctober 2001 From: OH 17,574 posts Posted by BRAKIE on Thursday, January 27, 2005 9:07 AM Bergie,I fully believe we are seeing the dawning of a new era.The manufacturers that is not bought out will more then likely be distributed by one distributor.This will include Kato USA... The reasons are many but,I feel its mostly "rational realization of the model railroad plant" that is IF the hobby is to survive the coming years it must be streamlined like we have seen railroads and some industries do over the past several years...The benefits will be many including more of a stable distributor price base and limit distribution to only brick and mortar hobby shops... Instead of the various discounts we see today including the deep discounters prices will be more equal regardless if one buys a locomotive off the Internet(from a brick and mortar hobby shop) or at the LHS..I also feel this will be one way the distributors can help the Mom & Pop hobby shops survive the coming years.After all if they have a stable distributor price base that kills the basement deep discounters then that would or should boost LHS sales.. Of course that means we will lose the deep discount prices we are enjoying today.So in all truth its win/win/lose.. Larry Conductor. Summerset Ry. "Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!" Reply darth9x9 Member sinceDecember 2002 From: US 665 posts Posted by darth9x9 on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 9:30 AM It depends. I have talked with IM and other manufacturers and everyone always says they are for sale if the price is right. I don't think Horizon bought Athearn with the intentions of killing the hobby as that would be a collosal waste of investment. As long as the other manufactures have strong sales for their product lines, they will be around. Not many of today's manufacturers are mom/pop shops or family owned. Most are corporately owned and have they have stock holders to please. It also seems that for every company that gets purchased, two more new ones come along. I think Red Caboose has come a long way in the past couple of years and I'm sure there are more coming. Bill Carl (modeling Chessie and predecessors from 1973-1983) Member of Four County Society of Model Engineers NCE DCC Master Visit the FCSME at www.FCSME.org Modular railroading at its best! If it has an X in it, it sucks! And yes, I just had my modeler's license renewed last week! Reply trolleyboy Member sinceMay 2014 3,727 posts Posted by trolleyboy on Monday, January 24, 2005 11:04 PM I just wanted to revisit this as since the initial horizon purchase we have seenMDC brought into the fold and Bowser has bought stewart hobbies as well. With Lionel in chapter 11 and i've heard that accurail is looking for a purchaser as well 2005 could be a year of continuing mergers. In today's day and age it seems that manufacturers and distributers need to get bigger and more diverse to survive. Be it from leagal pressure or just the fact that we the buying public want more and more at reasonable prices. just my 2 cents. TB Reply trainfan1221 Member sinceJuly 2003 From: Elmwood Park, NJ 2,385 posts Posted by trainfan1221 on Monday, January 26, 2004 5:53 PM CNWfan, Not much of a UP fan, are you? Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, January 23, 2004 2:16 AM (Dave Fallon) It saddens me greatly to see Athearn disappear into the hugh mega- companies that seem to be consuming everything intheir pathes. I loved Athearn as a family company that seemed to be in touch with the Railfan. I've asked about things from them for thirty-five years and always rec'd a reply; mainly handwritten; I bet that's gone with Horizon! I enjoyed Athearn's kits, and I want kits, buts that's also gone! Has this hobby got so lazy it doesn't want to put things together anymore. And the prices, they're out of sight; I don't suspect they'll be too many kids coming along to take our places when were gone! Sorry to see Athearn lost forever, but money speaks louder than loyalty, and that's what Mr. Irv had for his railfan friends and customers. If I'm going to have to pay the new higher inflated prices, I'll just buy Proto 2000 instead!!!!!! Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, January 22, 2004 7:33 PM For the most part, I do not purchase Athearn products. I don't really care who owns them or buys them. Bill Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 8:01 PM only time will tell. Reply Edit trainfan1221 Member sinceJuly 2003 From: Elmwood Park, NJ 2,385 posts Posted by trainfan1221 on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 7:57 PM Sure, after all since the real railroads seem to get bought out when they become succesful (see Wisconsin Central) why shouldn`t the model manufacturers? Reply lyctus Member sinceJune 2002 From: Perth,Western Australia 194 posts Posted by lyctus on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 2:48 AM Wow ! choochoo57, are you the guy who is building the really high brick wall all around the 48 contiguous states ? What seems to happen is that industry ends up happening where it makes most sense, so high volume, mass appeal stuff goes to cheaper labour countries and specialised low volume higher cost items centre on advanced industrialised economies. Our hobby supports a bit of both. I don't necessarily subscribe to the "junk" label for Asian producers. They react to consumer demand, and some really good product comes out of Asia if the customer (read distributor/manufacturer) insists on a certain level of quality. I am most impressed with the offerings of Bachmann for example which comes out of China. Other brand names also source from China and their stuff is fine. You would probably gape if you drove through the industrial areas of ,for example, Shanghai, to read the top end brands being produced in factories there and marketed as top US and Euro produced product at massive mark-ups in our stores . We all have to learn to co-exist and not to erect walls to safeguard the backyard from foreign fiends ! Sure ,US (and Aussie,and Euro) factories can do great quality stuff, its just that most of us would not buy it 'cos we couldn't afford it. Geoff I wish I was better trained. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 7:42 AM I hope that independant manufacturing folks will stay that way. It's not good to put all your eggs, or models into one basket. I was quite happy with the old way things were done. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Monday, January 19, 2004 9:00 PM Time will tell what will happen to Athearn, I guess we will have to wait and see. The one thing that bothers me most is the apparent 'only brick and mortar hobby shops will be able to handle Athearn products' policy. I tend to do most of my hobby product shopping on-line these days. If Athearn products are not available from an online shop because they do not have a storefront, then I will be purchasing fewer Athearn products. If the prices at the physical stores do increase over what I would find reasonable, I will be purchasing no Athearn products. But I can purchase styrene sheets and shapes and refine my scratchbuilding skills! Just my two pennies. Dave Reply Edit MononFan Member sinceApril 2001 From: US 3 posts Posted by MononFan on Monday, January 19, 2004 12:42 AM While a bad thing for this hobby - it was predictable. Wall Street has made "bigger is better" the mantra and encouraged buy outs. That has been helped along by a general culture of greed in this country. It's my feeling that that culture has now invaded our little corner of the world. When Athearn was bought out... did it go to an established model railroad manufacturer or someone who had a life-long interest in trains? No. It went to a business man... and in this country a business man does what is best for the bottom line, first the companies bottom line and then his bottom line. Athearn was brought back into the forefront of the hobby for one purpose only - to be attractive as a buy out. There is nothing good that will come of this - or any further consolidation - especially if it is along the current line of greed and restraining trade. I expect we will see fewer 'blue box' products and what we do see will cost more. We will have far fewer discounters who can deal in Athearn products. That means the new way to do business (make a ton, sell at full price and then dump, dump, dump) will not work and so prices will rise as fewer product is sold (fewer channels, fewer discounts, fewer sales). Prices will have to rise to cover the cost of the buy out. So, we will see less product, less availability and higher prices. I can only hope other companies don't fall. While I am pessimistic about Athearn, I am still optimistic about the hobby... it has been kept alive for years by the talent and energies of dedicated people. Even though the owners of Athearn went "Wall Street" on us, I don't think most of our manufacturers have that in mind. Reply brothaslide Member sinceDecember 2001 From: Southern California 743 posts Posted by brothaslide on Sunday, January 18, 2004 11:35 AM I wouldn't suprise me if we were buying our train "stuff" from WalMart in the next fews years - what does this mean for the LHS?[?] Reply curtisporky Member sinceAugust 2002 19 posts Posted by curtisporky on Sunday, January 18, 2004 9:09 AM I think it will only serve as a way to increase prices AGAIN; it seems to me the price on Athearn and others goes up weekly. At Caboose Hobbies in Denver, one can choose from a total of about forty "blue box" kits- there used to be hundreds to choose from. I can only imagine that Horizon will pu***he R-T-R and pull the "blue box." It's always a shame when these big mergers happen, no mater what the product or service. curtisporky Reply JoeUmp Member sinceMarch 2001 From: Blooington, IN 118 posts Posted by JoeUmp on Sunday, January 18, 2004 1:42 AM Swieder has a valid point to make. the only problem with that idea is that sometimes when sales of a product go down what happens is that instead of the manufacturer dropping prices to tempt buyers back, they drop the product line entirely and WE lose a valuable product. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, January 17, 2004 1:56 AM If this turns out to be a bad thing for the model railroading community, why not fight back in a way corporate America understands - in the pocket book. Just do not buy their product. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, January 16, 2004 5:03 PM Well, how many workers is this going to put out on the streets? I suppose we'll see a bunch more "made in China" stickers on the Athearn boxes. I just hope it won't lead to higher prices due to decreased competition Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, January 16, 2004 3:01 PM [:(] I hope not, but we cannot control the future. When a company gets bigger it gets greedier and wants only big orders to stay in bussiness. The mom and pop stores will not be able to fulfill this greed, and eventually will no longer be. Model railroading used to be a one on one with your local hobby shop, but with big companies its "If you want it you are going to have to pay for it" All we can do is hope for the best. trainman Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, January 16, 2004 3:00 PM Oh My People what is the world coming. Everyone thinks that Big brother of the corp. world is coming after us. It is business people. I have found that reading the post reffering to this story has replaced my reading of the newspaper comics. So much humor. Bottom line people It will either make a great move product wise maybe better product maybe better prices. Or other hand Prices go thru the roof. Will I lose any sleep over it. Nope. It prices get out of hand Guess what we do not have to buy the product. Enough said Reply Edit nfmisso Member sinceDecember 2001 From: San Jose, California 3,154 posts Posted by nfmisso on Friday, January 16, 2004 12:05 PM In HO, Walthers got into consolidation of manufacturing and distributing, bascially from the beginning, with spurts at various times. That has not set off a wave of consolidations.... Nigel N&W in HO scale, 1950 - 1955 (..and some a bit newer too) Now in San Jose, California Reply harryb3 Member sinceJune 2002 From: New Mexico 17 posts Posted by harryb3 on Friday, January 16, 2004 11:00 AM Who is next, Wal-Mart? Forgive me for being a bit cynical, but that may not be too far in the future. This Christmas, the local Wal-Mart had the Athearn John Deere set available. So they have moved up from Bachmann Sets in a small way. We've seen Rivarossi go sky high since their exclusive deal. Model Power bought out Mantua/Tyco and now have introduced their all metal series. Didn't Atlas buy out the O Intermountain line too? I have a ton of "Blue-Box" kits from Athearn. They were relatively inexpensive and I still upgrade to metal wheelsets and Kadee's for just a little more cost. Putting them together is a lot more fun than just opening a box RTR. Two Mom and Pop shops closed locally, two others relocated. I supose the internet is responsible somewhat. I like to price shop from all of the sources available. But this hobby has gone from simple plastic kits to detailed kits/half pre-built to RTR pretty quickly. And the prices have gone up exponentially. People wonder why kids aren't getting into the hobby or why NMRA membership is shrinking. Big Bucks business deals like this lead to higher cost expectations, I just hope this Horizon deal will keep what we the consumer want at a reasonable cost and available. The timing of batch runs initially floods the market with stuff which is sold quickly and one might have to wait years for a reissue run to fill his needs. Facts of life to live with, we just have to grin and bear it until the next merger deal catches us by surprise. No wonder I'm seeing more scratchbuilding articles. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, January 16, 2004 10:31 AM [:D]We have to remember, to most of us it's a hobby. To most of the suppliers it's a livelyhood,job or business. If a company has a good product, but can't make money with it, then that company has to quit, sell or give it away. Sometimes we as the hobby consumer tent to forget that fact. Kalmbach, as an example, used to print an excellent magazine about airlines, they publish magazines other than model magazines (The Writer). As long as someone wants to buy it someone will make it, but if not it's gone. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, January 16, 2004 9:37 AM [}:)] Yes, but the devil is always in the details. If this merger is to be acceptable then the new company must have the same goals as does Athearn. They must have the same core business activities. The reason some mergers fail is because the buyer does not value the core business as does the buyee. Example: A large for profit company buys or merges with a not-for profit organization in an un-related field. Not-for profit organization is doomed from the start because the core business structure is totally different. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, January 16, 2004 8:02 AM After the death of Irving Athearn,I suppose this "merger" was inevitable. Athearn locomotives comprise the majority of my locomotive fleet. I've used them for the same reasons most of us in the hobby have. Reasonable price,good looks,ability to super detail,good pullers on our pikes.We'll just have to wait and see how this one plays.I'm certain I won't be the only one watching. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, January 16, 2004 6:29 AM This is my first posting so don't scream. But I think this Athearn deal is totally wrong and no good . I have seen what happens before not just here but in the steel industries ( Beth Steel ) the car sector ( Chry. buying AMC & Jeep ) stop and think both cost tax payers millions on dollars and jobs. Well I sure that this merger won't effect us the way those did but it still is no good. A prime and recent deal was Rivarossi sold out you could not get train for months then when they are back the prices when up. We need new co. and products I feel in the worst way But they need to be high quality at fair prices not Jap. or China made junk at top dollar. Lets keep the U.S. worker in jobs and the pride here not over seas. This is the greatest country in the world with the best tech. and workers in the world, And we have proven it time after time!!!!!!!!! Reply Edit trainwomen Member sinceJune 2002 From: Australia 29 posts Posted by trainwomen on Friday, January 16, 2004 6:24 AM This is of some concern. There is a theory that a bigger compay equals greater efficiency. Pity it's only a theory and often doesn't work in practice. We have had great supply and service over the years in Australia from Athearn and I would hate to see this change. If supply is going to be a problem to some hobby shops in the US what hope is there for us on the other side of the world? 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Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon
Bill Carl (modeling Chessie and predecessors from 1973-1983) Member of Four County Society of Model Engineers NCE DCC Master Visit the FCSME at www.FCSME.org Modular railroading at its best! If it has an X in it, it sucks! And yes, I just had my modeler's license renewed last week!