I think most of these comments are fair. I particularly like the one "Thy are what they are".
IHC is an Importer - no more no less. Their products are very uneven, but the one 'common thread' seems to be 'cheap' (& 'profitable').
selector wrote:It was a nice, eye-catching ad, but as you did, I found myself looking to the valve-gear which is my eye-candy on a steamer. Same old stuff, all right. So, I am afraid I agree with you, as much as I wish you were mistaken about IHC's latest offerings. In a way it makes the whole 2-10-2 episode seem a bit odd, doesn't it? It is a superior model, but what has gone on the past 12 months? Is this a flash in the pan?....
It was a nice, eye-catching ad, but as you did, I found myself looking to the valve-gear which is my eye-candy on a steamer. Same old stuff, all right. So, I am afraid I agree with you, as much as I wish you were mistaken about IHC's latest offerings. In a way it makes the whole 2-10-2 episode seem a bit odd, doesn't it? It is a superior model, but what has gone on the past 12 months? Is this a flash in the pan?
....
Maybe this is one of the reasons there is no PC set this year. Hard to follow up on that 2-10-2 from last year's set.
Just a thought.......
Larry
I DO have fun in the hobby, daily! I just can't get my head around the fact that some manufacturers build what may be some good engines, but put totally rediculous or fake paint scheme or road names on them. What's next? A great running 4-4-0 in CSX yn3 paint? Or how about a GG1 in SP bloody nose? I guess what I am getting at here is why can't they be decorated correctly to start with so that the guys who just want to run trains AND the more discering modelers can all enjoy the same product. Wouldn't they sell more that way?? Plus, as the model owners tastes change over time, (I've witnessed this several times)there wont be a delayed "buyers remorse" for buying an engine that may need to be modified or repainted to fit into a prototypical operating scheme.
It cant take that much more effort to just do it right.
kbfcsme wrote: LarryI just can't get my head around the fact that some manufacturers build what may be some good engines, but put totally rediculous or fake paint scheme or road names on them. What's next? It cant take that much more effort to just do it right.
I just can't get my head around the fact that some manufacturers build what may be some good engines, but put totally rediculous or fake paint scheme or road names on them. What's next?
I think you'll find that all manufacturers tend to do this. Can you name a manufacturer who doesn't take some liberties with roadnames and numbers?
msowsun wrote: kbfcsme wrote: LarryI just can't get my head around the fact that some manufacturers build what may be some good engines, but put totally rediculous or fake paint scheme or road names on them. What's next? It cant take that much more effort to just do it right. I think you'll find that all manufacturers tend to do this. Can you name a manufacturer who doesn't take some liberties with roadnames and numbers?
And this is why I buy present-day plastic steam to kitbash! How difficult is it, given the information in MR Cyclopedia volume 1 and from other sources, to remove and change road names and numbers, relocate minor details, swap tenders?... These days my only requirement is that the mechanism have the right number of properly sized wheels to be bashable into the loco I really want - which is almost certain to have almost no external resemblance to the manufactured product.
kbfcsme wrote: What's next? A great running 4-4-0 in CSX yn3 paint?
What's next? A great running 4-4-0 in CSX yn3 paint?
Actually, I'd probably buy one of those.I don't mind the fantasy paint schemes. Heck! I love some of the paint jobs that SMOKE does! I was just hoping with the nice job they did with the 2-10-2, we might see that "upgrade" carried into some of their other models. I know that what they're selling has it's place in our hobby. I'd just like to see them sell 2 different levels of locos like most of the other companies do. IHC seems to be one of the only companies NOT doing that these days.
What is so nice about the 2-10-2?
RP25 wheels, DCC ready, Blackened handrails.
Yes, that is exactly what they have added to their 4-6-2 Pacific and 2-8-2 Mikado models. So why is anyone complaining?
The 2-10-2 is really the old 4-8-2 Mountain with a different drive wheel arrangement. Both share the same boiler and drive train as the 4-6-4 Hudson. I imagine they will aslo get the RP25 wheels other upgrades soon as well.
msowsun, hands down, your work on the IHC steamers is good stuff. You can see what they need, and by golly, they get the treatment. But, as I said in my initial comment, I can get past inconsistencies over dome heights and positions, colours of the handrails, and so on, but the difference between the valve gear when comparing the 2-10-2 to the lesser offerings is really much too much to be discarded, even discounted. I am retiring an IHC WP&Y Ry Mikado because the vale gear has already succumbed to its engineering deficiencies. I have perhaps 1.5 hours of total moving time on that loco, although I would be willing to bet my next pension check it is less than that, and the valve gear is shot. We'll forget that it bears a poor resemblance to real valve gear. Well, actually, I can't. And that is what distinguishes the usual stuff from their rather nice Santa Fe type.
Nobody is forcing one of these down my throat. Good thing, because I am about to decommission one and place its decoder in a Trix Mikado. In some ways, I wish I had bought the Christmas PC 2-10-2 because it was a nice engine.
-Crandell
kbfcsme wrote: LarryI DO have fun in the hobby, daily! I just can't get my head around the fact that some manufacturers build what may be some good engines, but put totally rediculous or fake paint scheme or road names on them. What's next? A great running 4-4-0 in CSX yn3 paint? Or how about a GG1 in SP bloody nose? I guess what I am getting at here is why can't they be decorated correctly to start with so that the guys who just want to run trains AND the more discering modelers can all enjoy the same product. Wouldn't they sell more that way?? Plus, as the model owners tastes change over time, (I've witnessed this several times)there wont be a delayed "buyers remorse" for buying an engine that may need to be modified or repainted to fit into a prototypical operating scheme.It cant take that much more effort to just do it right.
The companies do this because they need to recoup some of their costs for the tooling of a particular locomotive by trying to give it a larger market appeal. For the most part only Pennsy and later Amtrak and Conrail owned and operated the GG-1s as you mentioned and they pretty much only operated in the Northeast Corridor. They were also retired, donated to museums, or scrapped by the early 1980s. In order to get their money back then make a profit they'll need to sell alot of GG-1s. So unless everybody suddenly decides to start modelling either Pennsy, Penn Central, Early Amtrak, or Early Conrail in the Northeast Corridor you're gonna need to run some other roadname choices or raise up the prices. Sadly this is one of the many compromises we have to deal with. Whether we like it or not companies like Athearn, Atlas, IHC, and all the others are businesses mainly interested in making money and locos that aren't selling aren't making money either.
Good running engines will sell and keep selling for years.
Junk engines get discontinued quickly. The People votes with thier wallet and the good engines thrive. The rest just rot in the warehouse.
IHC has been careful to maintain it's inventory over years. Unlike some of the fancier newer engines from other manufactors that are out of production or discontinued within two years.
I dont necessarily enjoy some of the things like CSX paint on a 4-4-0 gah! However taking into consideration the gilded and golden wonders adorned with colors from before the 1900's anything is possible.
I did see that IHC has put two UK engines on thier products. Im mildly interested. It's the little things like pulling power, decoder installation etc that is holding me from buying a set of two. I can only imagine the hue and cry should two of these be spotted towing pre-ICC reefers past the ice dock.
Guys:
90% of the people who enjoy this hobby have never seen a steam loco other than in a museum.
While there are many people in the hobby who are doing everything in their power to build a museum quality exact replica of a day-gone-by, there are also many people who are running NASCAR, Coors, or Christmas trains. Some people are in it for the fun of "running trains". They are not obsessed with details. Like a large percentage of Americans, they shop price, not perfection. Wal-Mart has proven just how large that market segment of America is.
If IHC has chosen to be the Wal-Mart of model railroading, I suspect they will make a lot of money. There is room in our hobby for both kinds of modelers.
In the mean time, there will always be places where those of us who actually know what 4-6-2 K4 Pacific even means can find acurate prototypically accurate models, and we understand that they will cost more.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Actually a lot of modelers would rather have "close enough" at a fair price then "exact" at a higher cost..Even Atlas had to enter the lower price market..That's what the Traiman line is all about.You do know the modeler needs to add the grabs on the Trainman GP38-2 ?
I have notice a shift in the local clubs as well..Athearn,Atlas Trainman,Walthers Train Line and P1K seems to be the choice over the higher price models..BLI/Blueline seems to have won the day on the locomotives with sound.
Maybe the higher details/higher price bubble has developed a leak?
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
marknewton wrote: BRAKIE wrote: Come on down off of your high mule..Guys that buy those engines are in the hobby because they like trains and are still having fun in the hobby.Is that against the law these days?Interesting line of argument based on a non-sequitur - "You don't agree with me, so you must not be having any fun". The OP expressed a valid opinion aboout the quality of a particular manufacturer's models. I don't recall him making any suggestion that fun should be outlawed.
BRAKIE wrote: Come on down off of your high mule..Guys that buy those engines are in the hobby because they like trains and are still having fun in the hobby.Is that against the law these days?
Come on down off of your high mule..Guys that buy those engines are in the hobby because they like trains and are still having fun in the hobby.
Is that against the law these days?
Not in some many words but,I believe this sums up his thoughts..
Finally saw the ad in MR today. These things look like crap! I can see taking one loco type and making it generic to cover a bunch of road names, but they used the same exact loco for their 2-8-2 AND their 4-6-2. All they did was change the wheel arrangement"
Actually that is nothing new under the sun and MR in their review of the 2-10-2 stated it didn't follow any prototype locomotive.
The 4-6-2 and 2-8-2 favors a genetic USRA design.
You see these genetic locomotives fills a niche in the low price steam locomotive market.
I dont know about the price bubble, Brakie. I suspect that will be worth a entire thread by itself.
You can make a IHC passenger car look, weight, run well and generally be first class with a few dollars expense. I prefer Rapidos or Walthers, but try to avoid MSRP. IHC is just too light for me. However there isnt any reason other than the Horn Hook couplers not to use them.
Things have gotten cheaper on some items but other items like reefer cars are just as stubbornly expensive as ever.
Actually, I think that Msowsun has answered the IHC argument extremely well with his photos of the kit-bashes. He's taken some relatively inexpensive, well-running 'generic' locomotives and transformed them into some extremely handsome Canadian prototypes.
It's the old "Give me a lemon and I'll make lemonade" type of thinking.
Back in the 'good old days', there were certain manufacturers of steam locomotives--Mantua, Varney and MDC come immediately to mind--who made good-running (for their day) 'generic' steamers, and modelers immediately began 'kit-bashing' them to produce more accurate models of the steamers that they wanted. I even did a couple, myself, way back when. Hey, even back then when Brass prices weren't out in space, I kitbashed a 'close-enough' model of a Rio Grande F-81 2-10-2. It's still running on my MR, and some of my colleagues STILL think it's a 'real' F-81.
What I'm getting at, is that these IHC models, which are good little runners, are perfect candidates for reviving the fun of kit-bashing. And since they're plastic, they're certainly a lot easier to work with than Zamac or Brass. So at least in that respect, they're kind of a boon for we guys that like to 'tinker.'
Those handsome Canadian kit-bashes of Msowsun's kind of speak for themselves, don't they?
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
There's nothing you could do to help this poor thing except repaint it or put it out of its misery.
I knew when I saw the ad in Model Railroader that IHC was only adding blackened metal parts and RP25 flanges to improve the appearance, and were not undertaking a complete retooling. Like Rivarossi before them, they are slow to change and upgrade. The only IHC loco I own is the Reno 4-4-0, which is just old Rivarossi tooling with a better 3-pole motor. I've always found the IHC/Mehano castings to be generally crude, but they do have their place in the market, and are a boon to kitbashers like Mswosun.
What I really don't understand is their line of diesels that still have the plastic handrails, talgo couplers, and gap-toothed pilots from the AHM days. Athearn proved years ago how easy it was to produce a decent inexpensive diesel, and IHC could fill that niche in the market now with better offerings. When you can get Proto 1 or 2K diesels through a Trainworld special for $10 - $15, why bother with IHC? It seems like they're aiming for the toy train market, but big box stores don't carry trains anymore.
Nelson
Ex-Southern 385 Being Hoisted
loathar wrote:I don't know msowsun...If you can't see a difference in the level of detail between thisand thisYou may want to have your eyes checked.
BRAKIE wrote:Not in some many words but,I believe this sums up his thoughts..
Finally saw the ad in MR today. These things look like crap! I can see taking one loco type and making it generic to cover a bunch of road names, but they used the same exact loco for their 2-8-2 AND their 4-6-2. All they did was change the wheel arrangement" Actually that is nothing new under the sun and MR in their review of the 2-10-2 stated it didn't follow any prototype locomotive.
I am somewhat confused about all the fuss.
Check out this ad for one of the new locomotives. The ad on e-bay does go into some detail that the printed ad in MR seems to only allude to.
http://cgi.ebay.ca/New-Rel-from-IHC-4-6-2-Premier-Gold-CNJ-Blue-Comet_W0QQitemZ160179683538QQihZ006QQcategoryZ38274QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
About 25 years ago I received a circle train set for christmas. Later I found out it cost about $25 or so but that did not phase my interest in model trains. Fast forward 25 years to the present day (literally the past 30 minutes) and now I begin to question why should I begin to design and build my 1st layout.
I see the ads in various magazines saying "authentic replicas" and highly detailed and I think the pic looks great (doesn't matter whether steam or deisel) and the price is average. Then I see this thread and read every post and start to wonder what the big deal is.
If the product offends you so bad then don't buy it! It is that simple.
If the manufacturer has lowered their standards to stay in business (not a new concept) and the new business as usual is not good enough for you, buy from someone else.
On the other hand, if some offers a product line that catches your eye and you have the cash buy the darn thing and be happy.
I may step on some toes here which really does not bother me but it may appear to someone new that maybe to become a real model railroader you must first build the ego, then the layout.
This hobby, like many others, is all a matter of what the individual wants. If I shop around for a 1940 Ford coupe for sale I can find a few basic versions-
1-someone will have a fully functional restored coupe that has factory matched ID#s,
2-there will be a coupe with the hood removed and big chrome all over the engine,
3-Joe Schmoe down the road will have a 1940 coupe that was restored using aftermarket body panels made in 1994, a seat that was reupholstored by some wet behind the ear 20-something, and a 1979 Audiovox AM/FM casstette player,
4-Tom, Dick and Harry Custom Cars wll be happy to build what I want.
So if, according to the standards I see displayed here, I buy any one of these I will be scum to the fans of the other styles. THAT IS THE EXACT INTERPRATION OF THE POSTS! "This loco ain't true to life" so if I buy it I'm in the out crowd OR if I buy the loco because it looks real sweet pulling a few other cars I have, I'm also in the out crowd.
And you guys wonder why modeling railroads is not as famous, traditional, or popular as it once was?
Ken
SteamFreak wrote: There's nothing you could do to help this poor thing except repaint it or put it out of its misery.
Aw, c'mon...It's not THAT far-fetched...
http://precisioncraftmodels.com/PCM-591-Reading-T1,-4-8-4,-Chessie-Steam-Special-2101,-with-LokSound-DC-DCC,-HO-i29429-c3145.html
Just be glad you don't have to press "2" for English.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ_ALEdDUB8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hqFS1GZL4s
http://s73.photobucket.com/user/steemtrayn/media/MovingcoalontheDCM.mp4.html?sort=3&o=27
Hey, Ken! You make a valid statement, and it bears repeating. Your post hits to the underlying sentiment of many of the onlookers to these discussions, that there is room, or ought to be, for all tastes, abilities, and means in this hobby. Mostly we can co-exist in the one forum, but occasionally we get the "rivet counters vs. It's my railroad and I'll do what I want" polarization. The discussions are rarely fruitful, because, as you say, it seems that the ego is what this hobby is all about. So, someone looking for self-gratification by way of toy trains is likely to find himself here if it suits their purpose.
Me, you, they.
Still, it can't be all bad for those who know better to lament that a stalwart in the hobby seems to have dug itself into a well-used format of selling toy trains. I don't know if IHC lurks here, but it might help to give them guidance if they do lurk and find that there is some disappointment with their product. We do that with all manufacturers when what they produce is deficient or defective against a moving standard.
Again, I take your message seriously and understand you. Some of our other contentious debates centre on the matter of the health of the hobby, and why newcomers are staying away in droves. The other side is, we need proof that this is so. I also agree that some of our expression here, including in this thread, may give the impression that we are a bit stuck up and rigidified, and intolerant of anything that does not conform to a convention.
Thanks for saying what you did.
Crandall,
I thank you for being open minded enough to grasp what I was trying to type.
After that 1st train set I bought MR at newstand prices by doing as many chores (there was no such thing as an allowance when I grew up, you worked for your money!) as I could con my mom out of. Now some 25 years later I'm considering doing a layout to involve my 2 youngest kids (9 & 11) as a year round thing for the family.
At the same time I have no wish to expose my kids to the "us and them" mentality when all this is for (I'm guessing here) 96% of this forums membership a hobby/distraction from "the real world"/something to fill the day type activity. I say the remaining 4% are "spys" from various manufacturers/retailers/wholesalers who are trying to get the pulse of the community.
steemtrayn wrote: SteamFreak wrote: There's nothing you could do to help this poor thing except repaint it or put it out of its misery. Aw, c'mon...It's not THAT far-fetched...http://precisioncraftmodels.com/PCM-591-Reading-T1,-4-8-4,-Chessie-Steam-Special-2101,-with-LokSound-DC-DCC,-HO-i29429-c3145.html
Precision Craft applied an actual excursion scheme for the 2101, while IHC's paint scheme makes that Pacific look like a big ol' chunk of Velveeta.
Not that I'm elitist or anything.
Mark said:As do the higher-priced, prototype-specific locomotives - something you "cheap and cheerful" types apparently can't bear to acknowledge.
--------------------------------------------------
Well,Lets see then..I have Athearn,Athearn Genesis,Atlas,4 Kato,3 Walthers(GP15s) and a Spectrum GE70 tonner..I am quite happy with my "cheap" stuff.
I suppose when a low price steam engine runs as smooth as a higher price engine..That's gotta hurt the old ego.
Then when one takes some old fashion modeling and turns a lemon into lemonade that's gotta hurt as well.But,we know you high rollers will never acknowledge that .After all a guy added details and has a fine looking locomotive that runs as smooth as a higher price engine for less in most cases.
marknewton wrote: msowsun wrote: kbfcsme wrote: LarryI just can't get my head around the fact that some manufacturers build what may be some good engines, but put totally rediculous or fake paint scheme or road names on them. What's next? It cant take that much more effort to just do it right. I think you'll find that all manufacturers tend to do this. Can you name a manufacturer who doesn't take some liberties with roadnames and numbers?Yes, I can. Kato, Stewart, P2K, A&R, Austrains, Liliput, Roco, Bemo, etc...
Kato has gotten ripped for missing details or wrong paint shades.Even Atlas has gotten rip for missing details or wrong paint shades..
I haven't heard of any manufacturer that hasn't been ripped for something or the other.Even OMI got a flogging for a detail or paint mistake.
concretelackey wrote: About 25 years ago I received a circle train set for christmas. Later I found out it cost about $25 or so but that did not phase my interest in model trains. Fast forward 25 years to the present day (literally the past 30 minutes) and now I begin to question why should I begin to design and build my 1st layout. I see the ads in various magazines saying "authentic replicas" and highly detailed and I think the pic looks great (doesn't matter whether steam or deisel) and the price is average. Then I see this thread and read every post and start to wonder what the big deal is.If the product offends you so bad then don't buy it! It is that simple.If the manufacturer has lowered their standards to stay in business (not a new concept) and the new business as usual is not good enough for you, buy from someone else.On the other hand, if some offers a product line that catches your eye and you have the cash buy the darn thing and be happy. I may step on some toes here which really does not bother me but it may appear to someone new that maybe to become a real model railroader you must first build the ego, then the layout. This hobby, like many others, is all a matter of what the individual wants. If I shop around for a 1940 Ford coupe for sale I can find a few basic versions-1-someone will have a fully functional restored coupe that has factory matched ID#s,2-there will be a coupe with the hood removed and big chrome all over the engine,3-Joe Schmoe down the road will have a 1940 coupe that was restored using aftermarket body panels made in 1994, a seat that was reupholstored by some wet behind the ear 20-something, and a 1979 Audiovox AM/FM casstette player,4-Tom, Dick and Harry Custom Cars wll be happy to build what I want.So if, according to the standards I see displayed here, I buy any one of these I will be scum to the fans of the other styles. THAT IS THE EXACT INTERPRATION OF THE POSTS! "This loco ain't true to life" so if I buy it I'm in the out crowd OR if I buy the loco because it looks real sweet pulling a few other cars I have, I'm also in the out crowd.And you guys wonder why modeling railroads is not as famous, traditional, or popular as it once was?Ken
Well said Ken. Bravo! Bravo!