Reasons my second layout was a 4x8:
1. Best use of space, freestanding, leaving walls free for floor to ceiling shelves.
2. Cost efficient module allowing for easy expansion.
3. Because the 'experts' hate 'em.
:-)
If everybody is thinking alike, then nobody is really thinking.
http://photobucket.com/tandarailroad/
SpaceMouse wrote: trainfan1221 wrote:You do what you have to..some people just don't have the space for more. I run N scale on a 4x6 layout and get quite a bit out of it. If someone can only do 4x8 then why not as long as they can get in on things with the hobby.If you had enough for a 4 x6 island then you had enough for a 8x8 30" wide U shape with 5.5 x 3 walk in operating area. Still contiuous running. My guess is there were other reasons--which could have been that you couldn't see that there was more space when you factored in walk around space. No matter.
trainfan1221 wrote:You do what you have to..some people just don't have the space for more. I run N scale on a 4x6 layout and get quite a bit out of it. If someone can only do 4x8 then why not as long as they can get in on things with the hobby.
If you had enough for a 4 x6 island then you had enough for a 8x8 30" wide U shape with 5.5 x 3 walk in operating area. Still contiuous running. My guess is there were other reasons--which could have been that you couldn't see that there was more space when you factored in walk around space. No matter.
Chip,Facture this facts in..A lot of folks don't want to attach anything to their walls or do they want a room full of layout..A 4X8 footer suits these modelers and supply there layout needs.
Again,its easy to build,easy to maintain and when properly design fun to operate.
Again what is wrong with these layouts for solo operation?
http://www.gatewaynmra.org/project.htm
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I would argue that 4x8 is the exactly WRONG thing to start with. Here's why...
First, you can't push it up against a wall, or put it in a corner, because you can only reasonably reach about 3', especially if you table is set at 50" or above, which the same books with the 4x8 plans also recommend.
Second, 4x8 is bigger than a twin sized bed. If you don't plan to have it set up all the time, it's a hell of a big chunk to find a storage place for, unless you completely give up and don't do any scenery, or are happy with those Lifoam tunnels.
Third, If you do plan to keep it up all the time, you have to dedicate the better part of a room to it. If it's sharing space with other family functions, don't be surprised if it becomes a laundry folding zone, a place to pile up old credit card statements, or just a place for the cat to sleep. Ask anyone who bought an Air Hockey table back in the '80's.
Fourth, It's Plywood, and plywood ain't cheap! Have you priced a/c sanded 3/4" plywood lately? Try $40-50 a throw. I'd rather buy more freight cars, thank you very much. 3/4 ply is also extremely heavy. Again, not conducive to putting up and taking down.
Fifth, with rare exception, 4x8 layouts are dull as dry toast, with a short train chasing its tail. This is especially true for HO (hum) scale. N scale at least allows the prospect of cutting the panel into thirds to create a more lineal plan, or an L shape, or any of a number of configurations. I dare say, a beginner that gets trapped in a 4x8 box will not be with us very long.
HO, being the lumbering behemoth, the woolly mammoth of model railroad scales, is slow to innovate in this area. N scalers more or less invented modular railroading, pioneered the use of lightweight foam, and introduced the hollow core door as the lightweight practical alternative to the 4x8. (Because we can have a return loop of 18" radius without it looking stupid)
I believe it was Gordon Odegard's N scale Clinchfield layout revolutionized model railroading as we know it in terms of portability, overall scenic impression, and a creative approach to prototype operations.
Unfortunately, the hobby is dominated by HO adherents, so we get boring project railroads in the magazines that beginners take as gospel truth. But, as long as people like vanilla, there will be loops of HO track tacked to a sheet of plywood...
But Wait! Before you send the Black Helicopters after me, consider this... Have the pimply faced kid at the lumber yard cut your plywood up a bit... Like this:
I built the above configuration for my son's HO stuff (Kids these days!) and using that good ole 4x8 plywood, we ended up with a 4x12 layout complete with an operators pit in the middle.
The result was a longer mainline run, room for a small yard, and a couple of sidings to keep a young conductor busy.
Lee
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
Here's another reason why a 4x8 island might be the best option:
Sometimes the spare bedroom you plan to use has no continuous blank wall space. You know the kind; the door is on one wall, the closet on another, a window on the third, etc. How do you build a layout in there if you plan to use the doors and windows?
4x8 island to the rescuse there. I was in that boat myself in the mid 90s at my first duty assignment. I had one of those annoying rooms with only one short blank wall, and I was in HO. Hence I had a 4x8 layout.
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
Tradition.
They find a 4x8 plan they like (there are a few 4x8 plans out there ) and go with it.
Every 'beginner' layout ever published in MRR is a 4x8? (I could be wrong here, but it feels that way).
Mostly, thinking inside the box, I think.
Soem of the reasons have validity, a moveable layout is going to work much better as a 4x8 (or some other rectangle sort of thing) than around the walls.
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
Most people cannot cut a piece of 4 x 8 plywood
That statement is pure BS, thanks for sharing.
Why would a person build a layout so large that if he even finishes it in his lifetime, will spend most of time cleaning track or performing maint?
Seems like work instead of a hobby.
At any rate , your layout is a loop to loop or point to point, regardless of if its a 8x4 or 64x128. The large ones just have more in the middle to keep running, while the smaller layouts, are just running.
I'm a lone wolf modeler, I want to build something I can finish.
I work for a living, I don't have time to play choo choo all day.
I have a family, I don't have time to play choo choo all day.
pilot wrote: 1. Most people can't cut a piece of 4x8 plywood.2. It works! 18" curves take about 38" wide to do a loop, so the 48" is wide enough with room to spare!3. No layout is perfect. If you have some track and some trains, you can start making things work and start learning. Gotta start somewhere.
1. Most people can't cut a piece of 4x8 plywood.
2. It works! 18" curves take about 38" wide to do a loop, so the 48" is wide enough with room to spare!
3. No layout is perfect. If you have some track and some trains, you can start making things work and start learning. Gotta start somewhere.
Actually you can use 22" on a 4x8 footer.
As far as being a loop de loop must layouts regardless of size are loopy de loops.
I see several reasons:
1. It's a convient size for a small railroad because the sheets come in 4x8. 5x10 might be better, but you don't see those at the local Lowes, HD, etc. - at least I haven't.
2. It's easy to set up. Lumber to build a supporting grid comes in 8' lengths so there's minimal waste.
3. A tabletop avoids duck unders or swing bridges and leaves access to closets, windows, electric panel, doors, hw heaters, etc.
4. Mounted on wheels and you can roll it around, leaving it in a corner most of the time.
5. It allows for a nice depth of scene.
6. You can do it in an unfinished basement and move it around later when you finish the basement.
7. You can actually get the thing looking finished even if you have little time for the hobby.
8. It's cheaper.
I find it easy to understand why the 4x8 is so popular.
What I find interesting is that larger table tops are not popular. 2 sheets of plywood cut at 5'4" can be arranged in 5'4" x 12' layout using all 4 pieces or 5'4" x 10'8" using 3 pieces and a small part of the 4th. Either of those sizes good be a good candidate for a spare bedroom or family room where you don't want the inconvience of an around the walls layout.
Enjoy
Paul
Primary reason: fear of cutting wood. If plywood came from the factory in 5'X9' sheets, that would be the size of HO starter layouts (and they'd be a lot better for it).
Byron
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
BECAUSE a 4X8 seems large enough, but is equivalent to running a boat in a bath tub.
2.It's simplicity.
3. Shades of Lionel on a 3/4" 'ping pong' table.
Largely it's so they can put those trains they just bought to some immediate use. I know that's what my family and I did when I got a trainset for christmas at the age of 9. Since we had a very large dining room we used a corner of it to put the train layout in. Needless to say it never dawned on us that cat invasions would become an issue. And to a kid at that age just watching the trains go around is enough. It isn't until you start getting older you begin thinking of concepts like operation or simply "how do I make this train do something other than endless laps around the layout?".
As you know, 4' X 8' is the standard plywood size used for home building since modern home building began many years ago. Homes studs are on 16" centers and the plywood can work with 16" centers or 24" centers without any problem. It is the easy choice since it is available at any lumberyard or home center. Many start at that size and expand and build on it since it was their first oval.
My dad used a 4' X 8' for our first S American Flyer layout and quickly expanded it to a 6' by 10" since we need more space.
Cheers
My 4X8 exists for one purpose - for me to practice on until I can build the around-the-walls configuration I really want. It also serves as a placeholder for all the stuff I'm building/buying until I have the real layout built....OK that's 2 purposes. Anyway, it was easy to construct and at some point I'll integrate it into that real layout as a peninsula.
I've learned how to lay, solder, wire and ballast track (ugh), and run trains in circles with DCC. I've slapped some scenery stuff down just to see how to build up terrain. Most of my work isn't even done on the 4X8 - it's done on my workbench.
fwright wrote: A 4x8 is by far the easiest benchwork to construct that a train set will fit on. Any larger (or even smaller) size takes planning, cutting, and additional steps in constructing the benchwork.
A 4x8 is by far the easiest benchwork to construct that a train set will fit on. Any larger (or even smaller) size takes planning, cutting, and additional steps in constructing the benchwork.
I'll add that a 4x8 lends itself well to watching the trains going around in circles. Early modelers are less into operating than they are watching.
Plus a 4x8 can be somewhat easily moved around. A multi segment construction will have to be disassembled.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
It may be because of item 5 on your list. It is so easy to just go to HD and drag home a 4 x 8 sheet of foam, or ply and plop it on a ping pong table, pool table or some saw horses.
Sad to say, that wold be suitable for a N Gauge layout but a sorry mistake for HO gauge. One ends up with 22 inch radius curves and a loop of track that is little more than a Christmas tree layout. Gotta get boring pretty fast.
I have studied almost all of the "wonderful" 4 x 8 layout plans on this forum, and mentally traced the possible operations on them. Most of them are just around and around loops with soe sifings, many of wich ca't even be switched
An oval with a straight section of about 48 inches would be the best starting point because it would at least provide a passing siding that would permit operating a train in both directions. This would allow switching all sidings as trailing point.
If space is available an open benchwork 6 x 10 layout would be the optimum smallest practible layout for HO gauge. It would permit 30 inch radius curves and operation of 85 foot passenger cars and still allow for a 4 foot passing siding.
"Rust, whats not to love?"
In defense of the 4x8:
I've been in this hobby since 1982, so I'm no newbie. But as much as I've tried (car-cards, waybills, switch lists, etc.), operations just aren't me! I prefer to just watch 'em run. So for a guy like me, a 4x8 does offer continuous running. If I were in HO, and did that thing where you rip the 4x8 down the middle and made an L-shaped table, I'd lose the continuous running.
4x8 would make a heckuva layout in N.
Now, my next layout isn't going to be 4x8... I'd probably go around the walls. But there's something kind of exciting about a blank 4x8 sheet on plywood on a well-costructed bench that screams "build me!"
I think it's going to be tough, Chip, for you to convert everyone to the "4x8 is wasted space" view. It is, in fact, a terribly inefficient way to use space, but darned if it isn't easy to do!
Chip,There are many reasons why new modelers and experience modelers continue to use 4 x 8 footers..They are easily built,easy to maintain and when properly design they are fun to operate as well.
Now one can still lay track to the bare plywood if its finish on one side.Of course the noise level will be greater then if one use cork or Homasote as roadbed.
Getting out of the 'HO Centric' thinking here, 4x8 is a sizable space for an N-scale layout.
But regardless of scale, just because someone chooses to build a small layout hardly indicates they are not serious about the hobby.
I think it came about for no other reason than 4 X 8 is the defacto standard that a solid one-piece sheet of plywood comes in .... no fuss, no muss - instant table top.
The standard 4 X 8 sheet of plywood existed before the train-set, so manufacturers designed their sets to fit on that standard predetermined size. Dad wants to get his kids' train-set up and running as quick as possible and doesn't want to have to be a carpenter as well.
Mark.
¡ uʍop ǝpısdn sı ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ 'dlǝɥ
Add on:
The disadvantages of the single sheet of plywood size (and of bare plywood as a base) don't really become apparent to any modeler until that person has accumulated enough experience to cease to merit the designation, "Newbie."
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Sorry chip, just had to throw that in. It actually started not in the traditional roundy-round 4 x 8, but rather, as more of a diorama (See MR, April, 1986).
A HUGE benefit of a 4 x 8 is that it's self-contained. The fact is, this makes it relatively portable. How many benchwork "joints" are there? Zero, if desired. There are a lot of benefits to a 4 x 8.
I have not built a layout since I was a kid/teenager, but really want to build another one. The local hobby shop has a 4 x 8 (roundy-round style). Now, whenever I see it, I'm constantly convinced that it can never look truly realistic with the sharp curves, etc. But, in the same amount of room space, a David Barrow domino-style layout could make for a very realistic looking layout.
As mush as I'd like continous running, if you're cramped for space, you really have to pay a HUGE price for continuous running, so I will probably live without. Those loops just eat up a TON of space. (This is where the N scale guys have a huge advantage - they can turn around quite nicely in like 2-1/2 feet or so)