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Why do people start with 4 x 8's

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Why do people start with 4 x 8's
Posted by SpaceMouse on Monday, November 5, 2007 12:59 PM

The two most convincing reason I've heard are:

1) They have a train set and they want to get it working fast, so they get a sheet of plywood throw it on a couple saw horses and in two days have something running.

2) They lack the commitment. They want to try model railroading to see if they like it.

But there's always.

3) They heard that a 4 x 8 is the starter layout.

4) They think they don't have room for anything else.

5) That's what the magazines show to get newbies started.

Chip

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Posted by selector on Monday, November 5, 2007 1:07 PM

Chip, they want to play trains, not operate them.  They learn how to "run" trains later as they realize there should be more to simply running a loopty-loop for an hour a day.

They realize a train set is achievable for $40-$80, know they need a comfortable and safe place for it, and they all have a couple of saw horses and a sheet of 1/2"ply lined up against the side of the wood shed.  Too easy.  Card swipe, dash home, Dad's all excited for once, wife feels that he's out of her hair, and they all get a fun interlude for a few nights..................a very few nights.

Then comes the disenchantment, then some reading, then some learning, then some more realization that enjoying model trains, like anything else, takes more than a simple plug and play.

How long does it take for a child to get tired of a R/C car like those that were popular back 12 years ago or so?  About a week?

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Posted by cwclark on Monday, November 5, 2007 1:10 PM

Chip,

   I'd have to go with the first two reasons you posted. They have a brand new set-up, need to get it started, and ol' dad was kind enough to build a table with a sheet of plywood on it to get started.

    The second reason is just as important. They want to "try out the hobby."  They use the 4 x 8 to find out if they: either got what it takes to become a fairly decient modeler, or fail miserably before dumping the big bucks into the hobby.

     I think we all started on that first layout on a 4 x 8 sheet of plywood in our youth and as time went on, learned a whole new way to model and carry on to higher levels from there...Maybe it's as simple as:   because it's fun....chuck

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Posted by fwright on Monday, November 5, 2007 1:16 PM

I would refine the answer slightly.

A 4x8 is by far the easiest benchwork to construct that a train set will fit on.  Any larger (or even smaller) size takes planning, cutting, and additional steps in constructing the benchwork.  The train set fits on the 4x8 with what looks like plenty of room for expansion.  And there are countless articles on how to get started with a 4x8, and expand it as time goes on.  Finally, as you mentioned, the commitment to a given room, $$ for benchwork, and time are about as minimal as you can get.

Fred W

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Posted by SBCA on Monday, November 5, 2007 1:17 PM
George Sellios' Franklin & South Manchester started as a 4 x 8....

Sorry chip, just had to throw that in.  It actually started not in the traditional roundy-round 4 x 8, but rather, as more of a diorama (See MR, April, 1986).

A HUGE benefit of a 4 x 8 is that it's self-contained.  The fact is, this makes it relatively portable.  How many benchwork "joints" are there?  Zero, if desired.  There are a lot of benefits to a 4 x 8.

I have not built a layout since I was a kid/teenager, but really want to build another one.  The local hobby shop has a 4 x 8 (roundy-round style).  Now, whenever I see it, I'm constantly convinced that it can never look truly realistic with the sharp curves, etc.  But, in the same amount of room space, a David Barrow domino-style layout could make for a very realistic looking layout.

As mush as I'd like continous running, if you're cramped for space, you really have to pay a HUGE price for continuous running, so I will probably live without.  Those loops just eat up a TON of space.  (This is where the N scale guys have a huge advantage - they can turn around quite nicely in like 2-1/2 feet or so)

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Posted by tomikawaTT on Monday, November 5, 2007 1:19 PM

Add on:

  • The simplest possible layout base is a 4 x 8 sheet of 3/4 inch plywood on two sawhorses.
  • All the track plans that come with toy train sets are 4 x 8 or smaller.
  • The first dozen pages of the track planning pamphlets put out by the purveyors of tracklaying supplies are meant to be built on the ubiquitous 4 x 8.

The disadvantages of the single sheet of plywood size (and of bare plywood as a base) don't really become apparent to any modeler until that person has accumulated enough experience to cease to merit the designation, "Newbie."

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

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Posted by Mark R. on Monday, November 5, 2007 1:25 PM

I think it came about for no other reason than 4 X 8 is the defacto standard that a solid one-piece sheet of plywood comes in .... no fuss, no muss - instant table top.

The standard 4 X 8 sheet of plywood existed before the train-set, so manufacturers designed their sets to fit on that standard predetermined size. Dad wants to get his kids' train-set up and running as quick as possible and doesn't want to have to be a carpenter as well.

Mark.

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Posted by MAbruce on Monday, November 5, 2007 1:25 PM

Getting out of the 'HO Centric' thinking here, 4x8 is a sizable space for an N-scale layout. 

But regardless of scale, just because someone chooses to build a small layout hardly indicates they are not serious about the hobby. 

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Posted by BRAKIE on Monday, November 5, 2007 1:28 PM

Chip,There are many reasons why new modelers and experience modelers continue to use 4 x 8 footers..They are easily built,easy to maintain and when properly design they are fun to operate as well.

Now one can still lay track to the bare plywood if its finish on one side.Of course the noise level will be greater then if one use cork or Homasote as roadbed.

 

Larry

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Posted by Dave Vollmer on Monday, November 5, 2007 1:28 PM

In defense of the 4x8:

I've been in this hobby since 1982, so I'm no newbie.  But as much as I've tried (car-cards, waybills, switch lists, etc.), operations just aren't me!  I prefer to just watch 'em run.  So for a guy like me, a 4x8 does offer continuous running.  If I were in HO, and did that thing where you rip the 4x8 down the middle and made an L-shaped table, I'd lose the continuous running.

4x8 would make a heckuva layout in N.

Now, my next layout isn't going to be 4x8...  I'd probably go around the walls.  But there's something kind of exciting about a blank 4x8 sheet on plywood on a well-costructed bench that screams "build me!"

I think it's going to be tough, Chip, for you to convert everyone to the "4x8 is wasted space" view.  It is, in fact, a terribly inefficient way to use space, but darned if it isn't easy to do!

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Posted by Robby P. on Monday, November 5, 2007 1:53 PM
I have a 4x8 and I have had several.  The main reason is space.  Yes I have a huge basment, but at least with a 4x8, I can move it around or if needed to take down it will be alot easier.  I think alot about taking it apart and running a wall set where it would be huge, but I don't wanna take up basement space.  Plus, I would have it run all over the place.  I don't think it would look nice.  As far as, theres a bathroom, a wall with tools, etc.  I would like it look real neat and clean, if I picked that way to go. I enjoy doing the 4x8's.  They work for me.  Heck......I have even thougt about adding another 4x8 to the table I have.  Thats just me.  I work with what works for me.

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Posted by BigRusty on Monday, November 5, 2007 1:58 PM

It may be because of item 5 on your list. It is so easy to just go to HD and drag home a 4 x 8 sheet of foam, or ply and plop it on a ping pong table, pool table or some saw horses.

Sad to say, that wold be suitable for a N Gauge layout but a sorry mistake for HO gauge. One ends up with 22 inch radius curves and a loop of track that is little more than a Christmas tree layout. Gotta get boring pretty fast.

I have studied almost all of the "wonderful" 4 x 8 layout plans on this forum, and mentally traced the possible operations on them. Most of them are just around and around loops with soe sifings, many of wich ca't even be switched

An oval with a straight section of about 48 inches would be the best starting point because it would at least provide a passing siding that would permit operating a train in both directions. This would allow switching all sidings as trailing point.

If space is available an open benchwork 6 x 10 layout would be the optimum smallest practible layout for HO gauge. It would permit 30 inch radius curves and operation of 85 foot passenger cars and still allow for a 4 foot  passing siding.

 

 

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Posted by DigitalGriffin on Monday, November 5, 2007 2:00 PM
 fwright wrote:

A 4x8 is by far the easiest benchwork to construct that a train set will fit on.  Any larger (or even smaller) size takes planning, cutting, and additional steps in constructing the benchwork.

I'll add that a 4x8 lends itself well to watching the trains going around in circles.  Early modelers are less into operating than they are watching.

Plus a 4x8 can be somewhat easily moved around.  A multi segment construction will have to be disassembled.

Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions

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Posted by jblackwelljr on Monday, November 5, 2007 2:07 PM

My 4X8 exists for one purpose - for me to practice on until I can build the around-the-walls configuration  I really want.  It also serves as a placeholder for all the stuff I'm building/buying until I have the real layout built....OK that's 2 purposes.  Anyway, it was easy to construct and at some point I'll integrate it into that real layout as a peninsula. 

I've learned how to lay, solder, wire and ballast track (ugh), and run trains in circles with DCC.  I've slapped some scenery stuff down just to see how to build up terrain.  Most of my work isn't even done on the 4X8 - it's done on my workbench. 

I've never intended to "finish" a 4X8, but it sure is a good laboratory for learning.
Jim "He'll regret it to his dyin day, if ever he lives that long." - Squire Danaher, The Quiet Man
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Posted by CAZEPHYR on Monday, November 5, 2007 2:07 PM

 

 As you know, 4' X 8' is the standard plywood size used for home building since modern home building began many years ago.  Homes studs are on 16" centers and the plywood can work with 16" centers or 24" centers without any problem.  It is the easy choice since it is available at any lumberyard or home center.   Many start at that size and expand and build on it since it was their first oval.  

My dad used a 4' X 8'  for our first S American Flyer layout and quickly expanded it to a 6' by 10" since we need more space.   

Cheers

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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, November 5, 2007 2:08 PM

Largely it's so they can put those trains they just bought to some immediate use. I know that's what my family and I did when I got a trainset for christmas at the age of 9. Since we had a very large dining room we used a corner of it to put the train layout in. Needless to say it never dawned on us that cat invasions would become an issue. And to a kid at that age just watching the trains go around is enough. It isn't until you start getting older you begin thinking of concepts like operation or simply "how do I make this train do something other than endless laps around the layout?".

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Posted by Don Gibson on Monday, November 5, 2007 2:27 PM

BECAUSE a 4X8 seems large enough, but is equivalent to running a boat in a bath tub.

2.It's simplicity.

3. Shades of Lionel  on a 3/4"  'ping pong' table.

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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, November 5, 2007 3:26 PM

1. Most people can't cut a piece of 4x8 plywood.

2. It works! 18" curves take about 38" wide to do a loop, so the 48" is wide enough with room to spare!

3. No layout is perfect. If you have some track and some trains, you can start making things work and start learning. Gotta start somewhere.

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Posted by cuyama on Monday, November 5, 2007 3:27 PM

Primary reason: fear of cutting wood. If plywood came from the factory in 5'X9' sheets, that would be the size of HO starter layouts (and they'd be a lot better for it).

Byron

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Posted by SunsetLimited on Monday, November 5, 2007 3:35 PM
Some people also use 4x8's because you can put alot more scenery (town type stuff) on it than a 2x10 switcher, with my old 4x8 i had a nice sized town in the middle of the layout that allowed me to do what i like best which is scenery, and i could let the trains run while i did it.
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Posted by on30francisco on Monday, November 5, 2007 3:47 PM
I started out with a 4x8 with a Lionel "Super O" trainset. Many years later I built the 4x8 HO railroad That Grows by Linn Westcott. Although I am currently building portable module-style sections around the perimeter of a spare room (I live in an apartment so portability is very important), I had a lot of fun with the 4x8s that I built. I'm not an operations guy and much prefer to watch trains running through scenery and past structures (I'm more of a builder) so a continuous run is important to me, even if it's a glorified oval with a few sidings for limited switching. The 4x8 (or 5x9) fits the bill for this when space is limited or portability is important.
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Posted by IRONROOSTER on Monday, November 5, 2007 3:51 PM

I see several reasons: 

1.  It's a convient size for a small railroad because the sheets come in 4x8.  5x10 might be better, but you don't see those at the local Lowes, HD, etc. - at least I haven't.

2.  It's easy to set up.  Lumber to build a supporting grid comes in 8' lengths so there's minimal waste.

3.  A tabletop avoids duck unders or swing bridges and leaves access to closets, windows, electric panel, doors, hw heaters, etc.

4.  Mounted on wheels and you can roll it around, leaving it in a corner most of the time.

5.  It allows for a nice depth of scene.

6.  You can do it in an unfinished basement and move it around later when you finish the basement.

7.  You can actually get the thing looking finished even if you have little time for the hobby.

8.  It's cheaper.

I find it easy to understand why the 4x8 is so popular. 

What I find interesting is that larger table tops are not popular.  2 sheets of plywood cut at 5'4" can be arranged in 5'4" x 12' layout using all 4 pieces or 5'4" x 10'8" using 3 pieces and a small part of the 4th. Either of those sizes good be a good candidate for a spare bedroom or family room where you don't want the inconvience of an around the walls layout.

Enjoy

Paul 

 

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Posted by BRAKIE on Monday, November 5, 2007 4:49 PM
 pilot wrote:

1. Most people can't cut a piece of 4x8 plywood.

2. It works! 18" curves take about 38" wide to do a loop, so the 48" is wide enough with room to spare!

3. No layout is perfect. If you have some track and some trains, you can start making things work and start learning. Gotta start somewhere.

 

Actually you can use 22" on a 4x8 footer.

 

As far as being a loop de loop must layouts regardless of size are loopy de loops.

Larry

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Posted by tatans on Monday, November 5, 2007 5:52 PM
I would assume that most people start out with a 4x8 because they don't have the $40 or $50,000 that a lot of model railroaders seem to have put into their layouts, with the vast amount of locomotives and cars they have accumulated according to lists posted here, along with track, buildings, electrics, etc etc, Some people have more money than others.
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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, November 5, 2007 6:06 PM

Most people cannot cut a piece of 4 x 8 plywood

That statement is pure BS, thanks for sharing.

Why would a person build a layout so large that if he even finishes it in his lifetime, will spend most of time cleaning track or performing maint?

Seems like work instead of a hobby.

At any rate , your layout is a loop to loop or point to point, regardless of if its a 8x4 or 64x128. The large ones just have more in the middle to keep running, while the smaller layouts, are just running.

I'm a lone wolf modeler, I want to build something I can finish.

I work for a living, I don't have time to play choo choo all day.

I have a family, I don't have time to play choo choo all day.

 

 

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Posted by trainfan1221 on Monday, November 5, 2007 6:11 PM
You do what you have to..some people just don't have the space for more.  I run N scale on a 4x6 layout and get quite a bit out of it.  If someone can only do 4x8 then why not as long as they can get in on things with the hobby.
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Posted by SpaceMouse on Monday, November 5, 2007 6:22 PM

 trainfan1221 wrote:
You do what you have to..some people just don't have the space for more.  I run N scale on a 4x6 layout and get quite a bit out of it.  If someone can only do 4x8 then why not as long as they can get in on things with the hobby.

If you had enough for a 4 x6 island then you had enough for a 8x8 30" wide U shape with 5.5 x 3 walk in operating area. Still contiuous running. My guess is there were other reasons--which could have been that you couldn't see that there was more space when you factored in walk around space. No matter.

Chip

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Posted by Vail and Southwestern RR on Monday, November 5, 2007 6:28 PM

Tradition.

They find a 4x8 plan they like (there are a few 4x8 plans out there Big Smile [:D]) and go with it.

Every 'beginner' layout ever published in MRR is a 4x8? (I could be wrong here, but it feels that way).

Tradition.

Mostly, thinking inside the box, I think.

Soem of the reasons have validity, a moveable layout is going to work much better as a 4x8 (or some other rectangle sort of thing) than around the walls.

 

Jeff But it's a dry heat!

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Posted by Gandy Dancer on Monday, November 5, 2007 6:53 PM
You can lean it up against the wall, put it behind the bed, hinge it off the wall, suspend it from the ceiling, put it out in the garage or shed when not being used to run trains.  Traditionally called a "train board".   Mom, mom, can I get out the train board?
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Posted by Dave Vollmer on Monday, November 5, 2007 7:05 PM

Here's another reason why a 4x8 island might be the best option:

Sometimes the spare bedroom you plan to use has no continuous blank wall space.  You know the kind; the door is on one wall, the closet on another, a window on the third, etc.  How do you build a layout in there if you plan to use the doors and windows?

4x8 island to the rescuse there.  I was in that boat myself in the mid 90s at my first duty assignment.  I had one of those annoying rooms with only one short blank wall, and I was in HO.  Hence I had a 4x8 layout.

Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.

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