LD357 wrote: loathar wrote: I had an Athearn GP with a KD on one end and a horn on the other untill I got all my cars changed over. I don't really remember the horn hooks coming uncoupled or giving me any problems. Didn't have to worry about coupler height with them either. I never had trouble with the dreaded ''horn hooks'' either, or worried about ''coupler height'', but I gave into the mass hysteria that I HAD to change to knuckles if my railroad were to be viewed by anyone, so I did, and the never ending disconnections, foul ups and general uselessness of those knuckles made me change right back to horn hooks! and.... before theres a flurry of posts about what I did wrong, I used a height gauge, I used Kadee pockets, I used Mchenry AND Kadee couplers, I body mounted and I checked everything twice...and it was still a huge pain, those knuckles disconnect at the slightest pressure, hook say, 12, heavy cars up together , start pulling and pop! they come uncoupled. I got tired of it, I wasted time and money fooling with changing everything over, and you know what? not a SINGLE person ever even noticed there were ''prototypical'' knuckle couplers on my equipment, they did notice the constant uncoupling though. So now I change those knuckles over to horn hooks, I don't care if they aren't prototypical, or they're out of scale, or ''old fashioned''...THEY WORK! So change them if you must, but be ready for never ending maintenence and problems.
loathar wrote: I had an Athearn GP with a KD on one end and a horn on the other untill I got all my cars changed over. I don't really remember the horn hooks coming uncoupled or giving me any problems. Didn't have to worry about coupler height with them either.
I had an Athearn GP with a KD on one end and a horn on the other untill I got all my cars changed over.
I don't really remember the horn hooks coming uncoupled or giving me any problems. Didn't have to worry about coupler height with them either.
I never had trouble with the dreaded ''horn hooks'' either, or worried about ''coupler height'', but I gave into the mass hysteria that I HAD to change to knuckles if my railroad were to be viewed by anyone, so I did, and the never ending disconnections, foul ups and general uselessness of those knuckles made me change right back to horn hooks! and.... before theres a flurry of posts about what I did wrong, I used a height gauge, I used Kadee pockets, I used Mchenry AND Kadee couplers, I body mounted and I checked everything twice...and it was still a huge pain, those knuckles disconnect at the slightest pressure, hook say, 12, heavy cars up together , start pulling and pop! they come uncoupled. I got tired of it, I wasted time and money fooling with changing everything over, and you know what? not a SINGLE person ever even noticed there were ''prototypical'' knuckle couplers on my equipment, they did notice the constant uncoupling though.
So now I change those knuckles over to horn hooks, I don't care if they aren't prototypical, or they're out of scale, or ''old fashioned''...THEY WORK!
So change them if you must, but be ready for never ending maintenence and problems.
arent the McHenry's all plastic? All the stories heard on these forums nothing works better than the Kadees. If your serious about long heavy trains, Kadee is it. It takes a good inspection regiment to make sure the Kadees work right, and mounted right, but when they do, they are reliable. 12 heavy cars wont "knuckle down" a kadee.
Well, I just don't care if those horn hooks don't look ''right'', I don't care about ''prototypical'' this and that, I don't care if its all the rage to have Kadees or whatever, the folks who come to see my railroad, and bring their kids, don't care either, and I ESPECIALLY don't care what the goobers from the LHS think!
I used McHenry AND Kadee couplers and both uncoupled, I did everything right, and it was a total waste of time, those little springs pop out, the plastic McHenrys break, its all a waste of effort. If you're worried about the appearance of your equipment and you think those knuckles make it look ''cool''.....by all means switch over, I'll stick with what works.
Oddly I know of one club that still allows the use of X2F so the club is 50/50..Would you believe this club doesn't allow the KD clones..
As a kid the X2F was the "standard" coupler that was being used by the majority of the modelers including those that would become today's "greats"! I recall seeing a early picture of the V&O in MR(1963?) and the equipment had X2F couplers.
Make no mistake the X2F was the standard coupler at one time and it came with a plastic spring or a metal coupler with a brass spring that mounted on the back.
Another good choice in the 50s was the Mantua's working knuckle coupler.These was pushed aside by the X2F.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
BRAKIE wrote: I agree when properly mounted the X2F coupler works quite well..And RG,Nobody ever said the X2F would win a beauty contest..A ugly contest I suspect the X2F would come in third place after Mantua's loop and hook and the Kup-eze coupler.
I agree when properly mounted the X2F coupler works quite well..
And RG,Nobody ever said the X2F would win a beauty contest..A ugly contest I suspect the X2F would come in third place after Mantua's loop and hook and the Kup-eze coupler.
As a kid, I hated the X2F coupler - yes even as a kid I thought KD's looked really cool and looked alot more realistic than the the functional loop and hook or horn hook. Now I just take it for granted and am happy that the industry as a whole has toss the X2F firmly into the dust bin of history. The plastic clones are inferior to KD's no doubt, but a major leap over the ugliniess of the X2F. There are some fossils still running around with them but they too will fade over time. They Syracuse train show (going on this weekend) probably has alot of X2F floating around due to the ponderance of old junky trains dominating the tables there.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
LD357 wrote: I never had trouble with the dreaded ''horn hooks'' either, or worried about ''coupler height'', but I gave into the mass hysteria that I HAD to change to knuckles if my railroad were to be viewed by anyone, so I did, and the never ending disconnections, foul ups and general uselessness of those knuckles made me change right back to horn hooks! and.... before theres a flurry of posts about what I did wrong, I used a height gauge, I used Kadee pockets, I used Mchenry AND Kadee couplers, I body mounted and I checked everything twice...and it was still a huge pain, those knuckles disconnect at the slightest pressure, hook say, 12, heavy cars up together , start pulling and pop! they come uncoupled. I got tired of it, I wasted time and money fooling with changing everything over, and you know what? not a SINGLE person ever even noticed there were ''prototypical'' knuckle couplers on my equipment, they did notice the constant uncoupling though. So now I change those knuckles over to horn hooks, I don't care if they aren't prototypical, or they're out of scale, or ''old fashioned''...THEY WORK! So change them if you must, but be ready for never ending maintenence and problems.
I got a good chuckle out of your response. Yes, horn hook couplers work but they look dreadful, which is part of why they are "dreaded". I have had them uncouple on me in my early days when I was a kid or still in college and spending money on couplers was secondary to getting the actual trains. I realize you tried to do all the right things but if your train came uncoupled, it was either because the couplers were not mounted properly despite all your efforts or those plastic clones fail, as they sometimes too. I've had to work extra hard on some kits (especially Athearn with the metal clip) to allow KD's to swing and center freely. Occasionally a knuckle spring will pop out but not often and they can be secured with a touch of AC glue. Yes, any coupler be it horn hook or knuckle can be stuck in the wrong position because of the draft gear box or the spring or other reasons, and therefore not engauge or uncouple at the wrong time or on a curve. NEITHER are 100% reliable but KD's come pretty close and look close to real train couplers while they are doing it.
But, to each his own and different strokes. It goes without saying that people like KD's because the "look" alot like the real thing and for a majority of model railroaders, realism has ALWAYS been the central draw to the hobby. You mentioned not a single person noticed you didn't have prototypical couplers on your trains? Your audience must have been very casual train watchers indeed. This topic only proves the wides spectrum of people interested in trains - from those who are interested in them as caracatures of the real thing at one end, to those who are trying to model them down to the last dimension and rivit at the other ("proto 48 crowd"). I would gather than most of the folks who hang out on these forums are after a degree of realism and the more the better. I have never counted rivits (honest!) but I do try to buy models and move my roster ever closer to a representation of real trains during my 20's and 30's in Colorado and California. I realize that most of us will not reach 100% realism but we are usually striving and working in that direction little by little. Couplers are a very basic part of that effort.
Anyway, I know I'm preaching to the choir here since I've been on the internet (1994-present) the resounding consensus has always been KD's and at the very least knuckle couplers. The reasons almost go without saying but there are exceptions now and then and we all have to get along to some degree (maybe not in the same club heh heh).
LD357 wrote:...and it was still a huge pain, those knuckles disconnect at the slightest pressure, hook say, 12, heavy cars up together , start pulling and pop!....
...and it was still a huge pain, those knuckles disconnect at the slightest pressure, hook say, 12, heavy cars up together , start pulling and pop!....
I'm willing to bet your failed couplers were the McHenry ones, more often so that the Kadee ones.
TONY
"If we never take the time, how can we ever have the time." - Merovingian (Matrix Reloaded)
BRAKIE wrote: SpaceMouse wrote: loathar wrote: SpaceMouse wrote: Unless your rolling stock is really high quality, if the change over to knuckles is difficult, it might be worth your time and money to buy newer cars to replace those cars instead of converting them. I'm referreing to the cheap Tycos, Life Likes, and Bachmann's. WRONG!!! Nothing wrong with converting your old stuff over to Kadee's. It's NOT difficult and only costs about $1/per car/loco.My guess at the price is about $2 for the couplers, plus you have to buy the 2-56 tap and screws, cut the old box off and glue it in place. Then tap out the plastic and mount the coupler. If you then have to adust the height, it is even more work. To me this is more work and money than I want to spend on when I can get a better car at a train show with the couplers already mounted for $4--and get my $4 back from selling the old car on eBay. Chip,Let's look into this a tad deeper shall we? The new bulk 148's are $39.95 for 25 pair..That's $1.60.(rounding off to the next highest) per car.Not bad.The #5 bulk pack(20 pr) is $25.75 or $1.29 (rounding off to the next higher number)..The better deal.However,the price goes up with the scale couplers.I could not locate any "bulk" coupler boxes other then the standard pack of 10 pair for $2.85/2.95 per pack.
SpaceMouse wrote: loathar wrote: SpaceMouse wrote: Unless your rolling stock is really high quality, if the change over to knuckles is difficult, it might be worth your time and money to buy newer cars to replace those cars instead of converting them. I'm referreing to the cheap Tycos, Life Likes, and Bachmann's. WRONG!!! Nothing wrong with converting your old stuff over to Kadee's. It's NOT difficult and only costs about $1/per car/loco.My guess at the price is about $2 for the couplers, plus you have to buy the 2-56 tap and screws, cut the old box off and glue it in place. Then tap out the plastic and mount the coupler. If you then have to adust the height, it is even more work. To me this is more work and money than I want to spend on when I can get a better car at a train show with the couplers already mounted for $4--and get my $4 back from selling the old car on eBay.
loathar wrote: SpaceMouse wrote: Unless your rolling stock is really high quality, if the change over to knuckles is difficult, it might be worth your time and money to buy newer cars to replace those cars instead of converting them. I'm referreing to the cheap Tycos, Life Likes, and Bachmann's. WRONG!!! Nothing wrong with converting your old stuff over to Kadee's. It's NOT difficult and only costs about $1/per car/loco.
SpaceMouse wrote: Unless your rolling stock is really high quality, if the change over to knuckles is difficult, it might be worth your time and money to buy newer cars to replace those cars instead of converting them. I'm referreing to the cheap Tycos, Life Likes, and Bachmann's.
Unless your rolling stock is really high quality, if the change over to knuckles is difficult, it might be worth your time and money to buy newer cars to replace those cars instead of converting them. I'm referreing to the cheap Tycos, Life Likes, and Bachmann's.
WRONG!!! Nothing wrong with converting your old stuff over to Kadee's. It's NOT difficult and only costs about $1/per car/loco.
My guess at the price is about $2 for the couplers, plus you have to buy the 2-56 tap and screws, cut the old box off and glue it in place. Then tap out the plastic and mount the coupler. If you then have to adust the height, it is even more work. To me this is more work and money than I want to spend on when I can get a better car at a train show with the couplers already mounted for $4--and get my $4 back from selling the old car on eBay.
Chip,Let's look into this a tad deeper shall we?
The new bulk 148's are $39.95 for 25 pair..That's $1.60.(rounding off to the next highest) per car.Not bad.
The #5 bulk pack(20 pr) is $25.75 or $1.29 (rounding off to the next higher number)..The better deal.
However,the price goes up with the scale couplers.
I could not locate any "bulk" coupler boxes other then the standard pack of 10 pair for $2.85/2.95 per pack.
Micro-Mark carries the bulk coupler_boxes, 20 pair. The price, however, is the same as if you bought 2 packs of the standard 10 pair packages.
They also have bulk pack of scale_knuckle_couplers at $26.85 for 20 pair. These are Kadee brand, not some cheap copy. They come out to $1.34 per pair/per car which is not a whole lot less than the $1.60 you quoted for the 25 pair package. The savings will add up as a lot of people buy multiple packs of these bulk packages to outfit their fleet.
47gotcha wrote: I've been out of the hobby for several years due to moving to several new homes since my last model railroad build. All of my boxed up equipment is fairly old and it all has horn hook couplers. I intend to eventually convert over to knuckle couplers, but it may be awhile. I am also eyeing some newer motive power and rolling stock, most of which now comes with knuckle couplers. My question is; Will knuckle couplers mate up with the horn hook couplers of my existing equipment?
I've been out of the hobby for several years due to moving to several new homes since my last model railroad build. All of my boxed up equipment is fairly old and it all has horn hook couplers. I intend to eventually convert over to knuckle couplers, but it may be awhile. I am also eyeing some newer motive power and rolling stock, most of which now comes with knuckle couplers. My question is; Will knuckle couplers mate up with the horn hook couplers of my existing equipment?
You have not been gone long enough for the couplers to match.
No, they are not compatible in any way and that is really the good news. Once you have converted to regular knuckle couplers, the operation is improved to the point you can enjoy the hobby. The horn hook can be used if you convert one car with knuckle on one end and a horn hook at the other, you could still pull a train, but it will not back without problems.
Cheers
The horn hook couplers, can withstand rough handling (a must for younger train enthusiasts) where the new knuckle couplers break very easily. ...
The Hook Brings You Back I Aint Tellin You No Lie The Hook...on That You Can Rely
loathar wrote:That's strange. I did all mine with a $20 bulk pack of #5's and some 3 cent screws from my hardware store. Got about 100 draft gear boxes from McHenry for $2. Total of about $1.25/car.Guess I should have just got rid of them though...
There you go. I've never seen a bulk pack of gear boxes. I gotta find a Hobby shop.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
davidmbedard wrote:Actually...you are ALL wrong. You can do some 'snipping' to the X2f couplers to allow them to couple to #5s.David B
Actually...you are ALL wrong. You can do some 'snipping' to the X2f couplers to allow them to couple to #5s.
David B
If I am modding over to kadees, no need, I say buhbye hornhooks!!!
I think I mostly trash any hornhooks I find...I curse at every moment my cars derail because of the hornhooks...
I'll bite... but I'm not sure how many opinions we really need...
Most engines and some cars I've bought recently do actually come with horn-hook couplers that you can put on if you need them, which is not a bad solution.
If you're interested, or become interested as you go along, pick a favorite engine and a couple cars and convert them to knuckles. As mentioned, the best of the best is Kadee, but others will work - especially on short trains without grades. Uncoupling with a pick (wooden skewer found in grocery stores) works best with like-brand couplers, i.e. all kadees. If you need specific help with a car, take some photos or describe them for us and we can offer suggestions. After you switch a couple cars over, you will either decide to to the rest, or retire your fleet and purchase more "mature" cars. Personally, I converted a couple of my oldest cars, and I use them regularly. I also have a fleet of tyco cars which, after temporarily converting a couple, I opted to pack away. There are lots of nice but relatively inexpensive cars available these days.
By the way, each conversion will be a little unique. The cars I converted had truck mounted couplers. I replaced the trucks with new ones that came with metal wheels and had no coupler mounts (actually, I bought trucks with coupler mounts but later cut them off). Then I mounted Kadee #5's in boxes to the body of the car. Changing the trucks required gluing a new stem of styrene tubing into the car and using screws to hold the trucks. Then, there was a bit of floundering around inserting washers between the trucks and cars to raise the couplers to the correct height. Kadee makes a coupler height gauge which is very helpful once you switch to knuckles. It was pretty involved, and it took me a few tries to get to the final result.
Hope this helps,
Jim
davidmbedard wrote: branchline wrote: Hello David B,For me its no contest,knuckles only for me I change from UK 4mm scale which was all wrong anyway to US/Canadian modelling in 1979 and compared to American models then UK was all tripe and Geeps and Fs became my rostered locomotives and my first vcisit to Canada last year started off an interest in Canadian railways and have locos in GO Transit,VIA Rail,and CN plus the RDC all fitted with knuckles and all well detailed but next on my wish list are Rapido coaches for my Trainline VIA Rail F40 and GO Transit Bombardier cars for my GO F40 also Trainline.Malcolm David B
branchline wrote: Hello David B,For me its no contest,knuckles only for me I change from UK 4mm scale which was all wrong anyway to US/Canadian modelling in 1979 and compared to American models then UK was all tripe and Geeps and Fs became my rostered locomotives and my first vcisit to Canada last year started off an interest in Canadian railways and have locos in GO Transit,VIA Rail,and CN plus the RDC all fitted with knuckles and all well detailed but next on my wish list are Rapido coaches for my Trainline VIA Rail F40 and GO Transit Bombardier cars for my GO F40 also Trainline.Malcolm
Hello David B,
For me its no contest,knuckles only for me I change from UK 4mm scale which was all wrong anyway to US/Canadian modelling in 1979 and compared to American models then UK was all tripe and Geeps and Fs became my rostered locomotives and my first vcisit to Canada last year started off an interest in Canadian railways and have locos in GO Transit,VIA Rail,and CN plus the RDC all fitted with knuckles and all well detailed but next on my wish list are Rapido coaches for my Trainline VIA Rail F40 and GO Transit Bombardier cars for my GO F40 also Trainline.
Malcolm
Would you like an aspirin David?
Teditor
That's strange. I did all mine with a $20 bulk pack of #5's and some 3 cent screws from my hardware store. Got about 100 draft gear boxes from McHenry for $2. Total of about $1.25/car.Guess I should have just got rid of them though...
I forgot to mention, the modified X2F/Horn-hook will still work with each other as well.
For an initial cure to get you a conversion car (or indeed all if you wish), cut off the gathering tab on the horn hook with a good set of flush cutters, then cut off the protrusion underneath, you will be left with a basic knuckle, file the cut edges a bit to make smooth surfaces, and you will have a coupler that will mate automatically with Kadees (and most other magnetics), at no cost.
A cheap way to get you up and running, it can be a bit daunting to try and change everything over at once, this is a temporary cure that we find becomes quite permanent on older stock where switching is not required. Or just to get up and running again.
If the issue is expense, you could look at KD-sized dummy couplers like Accurail makes, they're cheap and will work with KD's. They will even couple with Kadees on straight track. I use them on my ore cars, two ore cars in a set of five have a dummy on one side and a Kadee on the other. The cars in the middle only have dummys. Except for not having the uncoupling "tail" they look at a glance much like Kadee couplers.
Otherwise, if you have talgo truck mounted couplers on some of the cars, Kadee does make talgo truck/coupler combinations that you could look into on their website.
There was someone featured in an MR article who used horn hooks and the writer sweared he had one of the best horn hook operating couplers ever. The industry now has pretty much switched to kadee clones, but no matter what you are best to convert to kadees in the long run. Its been noted that many of the kadee clones dont stand up to the heavy use such as 100 car freights and break easily. The manufacture kadee clone is great for testing and couples immediatly to your stuff with kadees. Horn Hooks could not do that and you had to convert over.
The only coupler I know that couples horn hooks and kadees is the EZMate. While you are in the process of converting have a few conversion cars so you can run all your equipment still. I did the same thing.
If you get too much slack action, you just twist them some more!
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
Semper Vaporo wrote:You can also throw a handful of "Universal couplers" in your tool box and use them for coupling any cars together that do not have mating couplers installed.I get one Universal Coupler with every loaf of bread and package of buns I buy. I also get a small packet of them in every box of trashbags.Some folk call these things "Twisty Ties" but they are actually "Universal Couplers".
You can also throw a handful of "Universal couplers" in your tool box and use them for coupling any cars together that do not have mating couplers installed.
I get one Universal Coupler with every loaf of bread and package of buns I buy. I also get a small packet of them in every box of trashbags.
Some folk call these things "Twisty Ties" but they are actually "Universal Couplers".
How's the slack run out on those universals?
Enjoy
Paul
When you do pick a car to use with different couplers on opposite ends, try to choose one which will be easy to identify quickly. Trying to figure out which car in a string of identical black hoppers marks the transition from X2F to knuckles can be a major PITA. It's a lot easier if it's the only four-bay in a string of two-bays.
OTOH, if you are going to run cars in cuts, and haven't encountered derailment problems, you can install knuckles at both ends of each cut and leave the interior couplers X2F. I do something similar with my unit coal trains - MKD-5s on the ends, ancient Kadee K couplers (without trip pins) in between.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
47gotcha wrote:Most of my rolling stock is cheap stuff such as Bachmann and Lifelike. My motive power for the most part is Athern and a couple of Bachmann engines. My wife will love to hear that I need to buy all new equipment...NOT!
No problem..You have a choice..Take one car and add a knuckle coupler on one end and a X2F on the other..There you have a conversion car and can change couplers as you will..
Of course you can still replace the cheap knuckle coupler with the horn hook.Its your call.
BTW..There are still modelers that still uses X2F couplers.