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If I convert to DCC, which system is "best" for me?

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If I convert to DCC, which system is "best" for me?
Posted by mobilman44 on Wednesday, October 17, 2007 8:18 PM

Hi,

I have been an avoider of DCC, as I have way too many locos (22 - P2K, 28 - Stewart, 4 - BLI, Atlas) to convert, and the two Controlmaster 20 units I have work just great.  My layout fills a 15x11 room and is 3 levels.

But, even at age 63, it might be a good idea to look at a change.  Cost is not a major issue, but it certainly is a consideration.  While I am fairly computer literate, I am not a PC guru.

So, what advice do you all have for me?  And assuming I want to put a decoder on all of my locos, what kind of money am I looking at?

Of course I could go to the loco hobby shops and/or read (again) all the ads, but frankly I trust you all to give me the straight scoop!

Thank you!

Mobilman44

ENJOY  !

 

Mobilman44

 

Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central 

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Posted by Mark R. on Wednesday, October 17, 2007 8:30 PM

One of the best pieces of advice is to check with other DCC users in your area and see what they are using. Also, what brand(s) does your local hobby shop carry. There's nothing like close support for when you have problems and need help figuring things out. If there are more than one prominent system in your area, get to know who has them and try the different systems out for yourself - one will "feel" better to you than the others .... THAT is strictly a personal thing. Kinda like telling you what kind of car to buy - I like it, you might not - you yourself are the one who has to be comfortable with it.

As for prices on decoders, depends on what you want / need your decoders to do. If all you want is good engine control with two functions (front and rear lights), TCS offers the T1 decoder which is one of the better low end decoders and can be had for $15.00 or less in quantity.

Mark. 

 

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Posted by Vail and Southwestern RR on Wednesday, October 17, 2007 8:32 PM

Well, there are several parts to the question, and so several parts to the answer.

As far as decoders, assuming you don't need/want sound (and even if you did, probably not in very many, I'd think), you can get decoders for a bit under $15 each.  There's no need to do them all at once, but eventually you will probably want to.

As far as a system, it somewhat depends on how many trains you plan to run at a time, with how many locomotives, with how many operators, and whether you want radio throttles or not.  I think you'd start by looking at the Digitrax Super Chief and the NCE ProCab.  The Lenz Set 9 or Set 100 would probably also warrant a look.  Your requirements might help narrow it down.

 

Jeff But it's a dry heat!

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Posted by tstage on Wednesday, October 17, 2007 9:33 PM

mobilman, 

Figuring $15 per decoder x 54 locomotives, you get $810 just for converting your locomotives to DCC.  Buying a good DCC system will bring that amount over a $1,000.

I think you'd be wise to answer some of the questions that Jeff has proposed to you so that you can start narrowing down your choices of DCC systems.  Depending on your layout needs, you may only require a starter DCC system like the Digitrax Zephyr or NCE Power Cab to get up and going.  However, the more locomotives/throttles/users you add to your requirements, the more likely you'll want to look at a more substantial system to better serve your needs.

Tom

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Posted by Ted Marshall on Wednesday, October 17, 2007 9:42 PM

Save yourself the headaches, go with Digitrax for all your DCC needs.

No offense meant to the proponents of Lenz, NCE or MRC.

Just my My 2 cents [2c]

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Posted by Driline on Wednesday, October 17, 2007 9:44 PM

 Ted Marshall wrote:
Save yourself the headaches, go with Digitrax for all your DCC needs.

He's right. All other DCC systems suck. Especially NCE.Smile [:)]

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Posted by Mark R. on Wednesday, October 17, 2007 9:56 PM

 Ted Marshall wrote:
Save yourself the headaches, go with Digitrax for all your DCC needs.

Digitrax MUST be the most popular - well over half of all the DCC problems people seem to have on these forums are Digitrax related !!!  Wink [;)]

Mark. (A staunch Lenz supporter)

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Posted by bearman on Wednesday, October 17, 2007 10:04 PM

Tom,

This time I tend to disagree with you.  With a layout that size, albeit you did condition your response based on the original poster's needs, I don't think that the 2.5 amp Zephyr will provide enough oomph.

Bear "It's all about having fun."

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Posted by tstage on Wednesday, October 17, 2007 10:20 PM

Bear, 

You are more than welcome and entitled to disagree with me. Smile [:)]  Although I do understand your point, I think it really depends on several factors:

  1. How many locomotives you're are going to run?
  2. How much track you have in that certain space?
  3. What size power bus and track feeders you use to provide power?

If you are only going to run 2-3 locomotives on a single track through those 3 tiers, I think the 2.5A Zephyr would work just fine under those circumstances.  However, if you start increasing demands on that layout (e.g adding another mainline, installing a large yard or yards, invite several friends over for an ops session), then I would agree and say that you should look for a DCC system with some more "oomph".

Also, what size (gauge) power buss and feeder wire(s) you use to wire your layout with can make powering your layout either more or less efficient.

Tom 

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Posted by loathar on Wednesday, October 17, 2007 10:48 PM
 Mark R. wrote:

 Ted Marshall wrote:
Save yourself the headaches, go with Digitrax for all your DCC needs.

Digitrax MUST be the most popular - well over half of all the DCC problems people seem to have on these forums are Digitrax related !!!  Wink [;)]

Mark. (A staunch Lenz supporter)

Laugh [(-D]

 I find it strange that there's hardly any DCC systems for sale on E-Bay. (from any mfg.)

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Posted by Vail and Southwestern RR on Wednesday, October 17, 2007 11:46 PM

Until the Mobilman comes back and answers some questions I don't see that there's much more to say.  Other than the one liner about Digitrax was obviously well thought out and considered. Clown [:o)]  My guess based on a three level layout, with fairly good size, and the number of locos he has is that he's going to want more than a starter system, but we don't know.

 

Jeff But it's a dry heat!

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Posted by modelmaker51 on Wednesday, October 17, 2007 11:48 PM
 Driline wrote:

 Ted Marshall wrote:
Save yourself the headaches, go with Digitrax for all your DCC needs.

He's right. All other DCC systems suck. Especially NCE.Smile [:)]

Looks like the Digicrap trolls are back.Dinner [dinner]

Jay 

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Posted by MisterBeasley on Thursday, October 18, 2007 7:00 AM

Please don't be misled by the partisan fans of one system or the other.  Very few modellers are actually dissatisfied with the DCC systems they own.  (Also, almost no one ever goes back to DC once putting a DCC system on line.)

From what I've read and heard, all of the DCC systems that have come out in the last few years are very good.  A while back, there were a few "entry level" systems that had limited capabilities and were not expandable, so if you wanted to upgrade the first step was to tear out the old system.  Now, all the major manufacturers offer a growth path from their bottom-end systems.  And even those starter sets are pretty good.

It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse. 

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Posted by Driline on Thursday, October 18, 2007 8:55 AM
 modelmaker51 wrote:
 Driline wrote:

 Ted Marshall wrote:
Save yourself the headaches, go with Digitrax for all your DCC needs.

He's right. All other DCC systems suck. Especially NCE.Smile [:)]

Looks like the Digicrap trolls are back.Dinner [dinner]

Big Smile [:D] LOL. I was being facetious. I actually have an NCE power cab.

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Posted by DigitalGriffin on Thursday, October 18, 2007 10:14 AM
 mobilman44 wrote:

Of course I could go to the loco hobby shops and/or read (again) all the ads, but frankly I trust you all to give me the straight scoop!

Quite frankly it's a matter of personal choice.

First off, I would buy Dream Plan Build Project Edition Volume 2 DVD - DCC from start to finish from MRR's customer service.  You can reach them by

phone:  800-533-6644

fax: 763-577-1298

Although this video is really a big plug for Digitrax as that's the only system they show you how to set up, it should give you an idea if you are ready for DCC.

That being said, Digitrax is probably the simplest and offers the greatest number of accessories as well as the greatest installed user base.  They have a neat signalling system.  (Which techincally works with all DCC systems, but you get the most out of it when used with digitrax system)

HOWEVER, I find Lenz to be one of the cheapest and flexible.  There are several different vendors which make compatible cabs which work with the Lenz system since it is an open standard.  They also offer several innovative systems available including two way communication with trains that has them automatically slow down, or even stop a train when a train comes to an end of line, or if the next block is occupied.

 

 

Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions

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Posted by SpaceMouse on Thursday, October 18, 2007 10:37 AM

I went with Digitrax because my club uses Digitrax. If they used something else, I'd have used something else.

I operate on two layouts. One uses NCE the other uses MRC. Both work extremely well. You simply cannot make a poor choice.

You can, however, argue until bandwidth is exceeded as to which one is 2% better.  

Chip

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Posted by jfugate on Thursday, October 18, 2007 10:44 AM

Wow, we get this question a lot ... for that reason I put together this thread:

Picking the best DCC system

One short answer to "What's the best system?" is this: all the big four systems (Lenz, Digitrax, NCE, EasyDCC) are good, so just pick one. You probably won't be disappointed no matter which one you pick.

Advantages: Digitrax has the advantage that more people use it than any other system, NCE has the best feature set, EasyDCC has the best wireless DCC, and Lenz has nice "big knob" throttles and some unique features like using a wireless phone as a throttle. 

Disadvantages: Digitrax is the most geeky of all the systems (keep the manual handy), NCE's wireless is weak, EasyDCC is only available directly from the vendor (so it tends to cost a bit more), while Lenz tends to lag behind the others a bit in features (like having no true wireless throttle offering).

Next is the question of how many amps of output do you need? You answer this question by adding up all the amps draw of all the locos you will be running at one time.

For example, if you will be running two HO trains with two sound locos each, that's 4 locos. Each sound loco will draw about .5 amps (typical), so you'll need at least 2 amps of output. If these are non-sound locos, then you can cut the amp requirement in half to about an amp.

You should also allow for some headroom on the amps, so at least 2.5 - 3 amps would be recommended. Going 4-5 amps would be ideal and give you plenty of capacity that you should never exceed.

DECODERS

My favorite decoder has become the NCE D13SRJ, which can be had in quantity for around $12 each. That means you could outfit your entire loco fleet for about $650.

Keep in mind with DCC, you get the ability to individually tune loco performance. If you like having the best possible performance from each of your locos, DCC will give it to you unlike anything you can do on straight DC.

Then there's the whole area of sound. If you have some locos you like to run more than others (I suspect you do), then you may consider adding sound to them. Keep in mind sound decoders cost more, going from $50-$100 typically. You will probably want to stay with only equiping your favorite locos with sound decoders because of the expense.

But adding sound to your locos is addictive, so be careful! Once you get used to sound, your non-sound locos just aren't nearly as much fun to run. Smile,Wink, & Grin [swg] 

Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon

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Posted by mobilman44 on Thursday, October 18, 2007 12:26 PM

To all,

Thank you for your input, it is appreciated!  It sounds like the field of choices is narrower (4 ?) than it was when I first looked into this about 4 years ago.

To answer some of the "it depends" items, I tend to run two or sometimes three trains at a time.  I also "overkill" on power, and my F units (Stewart) run in ABBA configurations with all units powered.  In any case, I do not want a system that could lack for power.

The GPs and E units run two/3 powered units.  So I guess the max draw would be 10 or so powered locos at a time.  The BLI steam locos have sound, and I do know that this is an additive thing.  Maybe a good route is to power about half the locos with the basics, and then eventually replace those with sound and move the basics to the other locos.

I do subscribe to the Dream/Plan/Build series and did watch the Digitrax demo.  But like I said originally, I much prefer to get the opinions of "the people" than the companies themselves (or those demonstrating them).

My layout is fairly track intensive (not quite a spaghetti bowl) but the wiring is fairly heavy.  If I go to DCC I will of course keep the many feeder wires (#18/#20) and put in either # 12 or # 14 bus wiring.  I firmly believe that if you are going to do something, do it right the first time and don't skimp on anything.

Again, I thank you all for your input......

Mobilman44

PS:  If you all have any questions about oil refineries or terminals or pipelines or the oil bizzness in general, just give me a hollar!   

ENJOY  !

 

Mobilman44

 

Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central 

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Posted by selector on Thursday, October 18, 2007 3:00 PM

This is just a theory.  If you were to take 20 new and 20 experienced, but DC-familiar, railroad modellers and assign them randomly to brand new systems ranging in what was available in 1997 to what is currently available, and then asked them to be as honest as possible in evaluating the utility of their assigned systems, you would find that the neophytes would have mastered and been quite content with their various systems something like 17-19 times out of 20.  Those who had been using DC would probably run the same statistic when all was said and done.

When you synthesize all of the responses on the plethora of threads over the years, you find that the greatest variable either alluded to, or that is anecdotally offered as instrumental, is how the user adapts to the demands of the user/equipment interface.  From system to system, it is the predisposition, orientation, intelligence, attitude, personality, or the persistence of the operator that determines how likely that user is to defend the virtues of his chosen system in these types of threads.

Simply, the systems all do a good job.  It absolutely is incumbent upon the prospective user to find out if one is more utile for one's needs, whether that be the throttle's fit in one's hands or the size of the buttons, the numbers of serviced functions, power supply, and so on.

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Posted by simon1966 on Thursday, October 18, 2007 4:07 PM
 selector wrote:

This is just a theory.  If you were to take 20 new and 20 experienced, but DC-familiar, railroad modellers and assign them randomly to brand new systems ranging in what was available in 1997 to what is currently available, and then asked them to be as honest as possible in evaluating the utility of their assigned systems, you would find that the neophytes would have mastered and been quite content with their various systems something like 17-19 times out of 20.  Those who had been using DC would probably run the same statistic when all was said and done.

When you synthesize all of the responses on the plethora of threads over the years, you find that the greatest variable either alluded to, or that is anecdotally offered as instrumental, is how the user adapts to the demands of the user/equipment interface.  From system to system, it is the predisposition, orientation, intelligence, attitude, personality, or the persistence of the operator that determines how likely that user is to defend the virtues of his chosen system in these types of threads.

Simply, the systems all do a good job.  It abosolutely is incumbent upon the prospective user to find out if one is more utile for one's needs, whether that be the throttle's fit in one's hands or the size of the buttons, the numbers of serviced functions, power supply, and so on.

This is classic Crandell at his best. 

This response needs preserving and placing in the On-line-forum-response-hall of fame!

Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum

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Posted by selector on Thursday, October 18, 2007 6:54 PM
 simon1966 wrote:

This is classic Crandell at his best. 

This response needs preserving and placing in the On-line-forum-response-hall of fame!

Well, if you're right, Simon, I had better hurry back to it and fix that nasty typo (abosolutely) first. Laugh [(-D]

Thanks, I appreciate it.

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Posted by cudaken on Thursday, October 18, 2007 6:55 PM

 Boy this is a can of worms that comes up a lot. I was a hold out for some time for DC only. But when I got my first BLI with sound that ran on DC I was hooked.

 Only reason I went DCC was for the sound. Guessing your bench has DC cabs so you can run more than one engine on a line at a time. If you don't care about sound then I would not change to DCC. If you want sound then go DCC.

 Down side is a DCC decoder with speakers cost more than some of the engines may be worth. But there is the fun side of the up garding as well. I have a 30 year old War Bonnet FP-45 that I up graded (runs backwards for some reason but I am over that part) and I love seeing this old engine draging freight.

 Thanks to T-stage I went DCC with a Bachmann E-Z command. It has it short comings but at around $60.00 off E-bay it was a good start. What I like is it is simple to use. That really means you have less of a chances of pushing the wrong button and mess up your Decoder. Down side is when your decoder messes up on there own, you cannot change the CVs and fix it.

 One draw back was it 1 amp power supply when I made the A Line and B Line DCC, for most of the time the A Line was DC powered by a MRC 9500. But thanks to this great site I found a simple and afforable answer. MRC Power Station 8 power booster, for $120.00 I got a 8 amp power booster that will work with any DCC system inc my Bachmann E-Z.

 Biggest reason I did not get the  Digitrax Zepher was it 2.5 amp power supply. I have big plains and was afraid the 2.5 amp supply would be to little. I will be getting a Zepher next year and and will have the power of a Super Cheif Digitrax 8 amp system.

 Want to get your feet wet try the DCC E-Z, need more power Power Station 8.

 Have fun and let us know.

                        Cuda Ken

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Posted by riogrande5761 on Thursday, October 18, 2007 7:37 PM

Glad most resisted the troll comments.

Great summary Joe Fugate and having grown up in Davis and Sacramento California - SP is near and dear to my heart!  I watched lots of tunnel motors and SD45's run parallel (more or less) to hwy 80 all the way up to Donner Pass and SD9's as well.  Beet gons ran right by my house in north Davis up toward Woodland CA.

Anyway, great advice and summary on DCC.  I have no layout at present but was building on in the late 90's and did alot of research at the time.  I boiled down to Digitrax and NCE.  Ended up with a radio Chief but after doing more reading etc, and fiddling, the Chief is very tecno geeky and less intuitive and easy to operate.  Mansfield in MRG magazine did alot of cheat sheets to help ease that aspect of operations.  I'm thinking I'd go NCE if I had to switch.

The factor that I think is important for anyone to consider are the controllers.  Do you like the way the operate, fit in your hand, the throttle nob etc.  I liked rotary throttles and that is why it was Digitrax.  NCE was thumb wheel at the time and I wasn't enamored with that.  Lenz is mostly push button - phooey on that.

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Posted by mobilman44 on Thursday, October 18, 2007 8:45 PM

David,

You question marked my "10 locomotives at once"............  Let me clarify that.

The 10 locos is really 3 trains.  In example, I like to run an ATSF ABBA FT with all four units powered, and an F3 ABBA, also with all four units powered.  For yard work, I often run two Alcos connected as one.  And I guess this brings about another question........

Do "you all" put one decoder in a unit of locos that you always keep together (i.e. FT A&B)?

Thanks,

Mobilman44

ENJOY  !

 

Mobilman44

 

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Posted by simon1966 on Thursday, October 18, 2007 8:52 PM
Mobilman, you could use 1 decoder, but it would be a pain to wire and would really limit your use. You would also have to be careful about overall current flow. A 4 unit lash-up may well draw enough current to fry a 1 amp limit decoder.  Really you should figure a decoder for each powered unit and then run them as a consist.

Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum

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Posted by Vail and Southwestern RR on Thursday, October 18, 2007 9:16 PM

 simon1966 wrote:
Mobilman, you could use 1 decoder, but it would be a pain to wire and would really limit your use. You would also have to be careful about overall current flow. A 4 unit lash-up may well draw enough current to fry a 1 amp limit decoder.  Really you should figure a decoder for each powered unit and then run them as a consist.

Another advantage to running them as a consist (besides that you can take them apart) is that you can tune them individualy to run well together.  For similar locos it might not matter, but sometimes it may.  Also, you could put sound in one of the group.  I think the one decoder idea may have had merit at one time, but as decoders have gotten smaller and less expensive the benefits of individual decoders wins out.

 

Jeff But it's a dry heat!

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Posted by ami6 on Friday, October 19, 2007 2:03 AM

Hi,

 

There are three commonly avaliable "high-end" systems, Digitrax, NCE and Lenz. All are good systems and everything, well almost, that you can do with Brand A can be done with Brand B.

I have used Lenz Set100 for several years but switched to Digitrax recently. And to be honest  I have more funBig Smile [:D] operating my layout with the Digitrax DT400 than with the Lenz LH100. But there are features that I miss from Lenz.

One important thing is, Buy a system with a computerinterface, and download DecoderPro. It makes everything easier to use and easier to understand. 

 

 

Greetings from Sweden Bertil, Fan of the Fallen Flags modelling the midwest 1975-1985 (And a lot of other started projects)
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Posted by mobilman44 on Friday, October 19, 2007 10:03 AM

Folks,

   Again,  I thank you all for the very useful advice!  As I wrote earlier, your advice and comments mean more to me than what I hear from dealers or read in ads.  I suspect that I will convert (likely when I do a rebuild of the existing layout) and you all have narrowed it down in my mind to Digitrax, Lenz, or NCE. 

I am an advocate for "more power", and a 5 amp system (or more) seems to be the way I will go.  Of course like all the electronic gizmos we have today, they will all change and improve (hopefully) and will probably make life easier for the "converts".

 One thing I have done to prepare for this eventuality is to sell off all my Athearn and Rivarossi and other older locomotives and upgraded to "DCC ready" locos like the Stewarts, P2K, Bachmann Plus, Atlas, and BLIs.  I suspect that will make life easier.

Thanks again,

Mobilman44 

 

 

ENJOY  !

 

Mobilman44

 

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Posted by Pruitt on Friday, October 19, 2007 11:11 AM

 jfugate wrote:
But adding sound to your locos is addictive, so be careful! Once you get used to sound, your non-sound locos just aren't nearly as much fun to run. Smile,Wink, & Grin [swg] 
You sure hit that nail on the head, Joe! I was very sceptical of sound-equipped locos when they first started coming out, thinking that I would turn the sound off rather than hear a cacaphony of sound from several locos running at once.

Now when I run a non-sound-equipped loco I feel very sharply that I'm getting only a mediocre experience - especially when I want to blow the whistle at the station! Needless to say, my sound-equipped locos run a LOT more than my silent ones.

Cowboy [C):-)]

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Posted by riogrande5761 on Friday, October 19, 2007 9:47 PM

Do "you all" put one decoder in a unit of locos that you always keep together (i.e. FT A&B)?

Thanks,

Mobilman44

Mobilman44

You can put a decoder in say, an F7A and then run the wires to the F7B unit.  This is possible if the decoder has the amp capacity to handle two motors - and that is probalby possible with such loco's as Stewarts which draw lower current.  You would have wires running between the units to hide and could make a plug apparatus so they could be separated.  But for another $15 you could just outfit the B units with their own.  I doubt many people run two "tethered" loco's off one decoder anymore.  Back in the days with Decoders cost 60-80 dollars each, and if money was tight, it very well may have made more sense.

Rio Grande.  The Action Road  - Focus 1977-1983

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