Anyone have one are are familiar with these units. My LHS has a sale on and these units are available at a major discount for the next week.
I know there was some sort of link between LifeLike and Hobby Craft before Walthers took over the Proto Line.
The C-Liner with the 5 axle engines certainly look impressive, but how do they run?
I have a bunch of the 4 axle C Liners and they are very nice. I would expect that the 5 axle would be similar.
And if the price is right, what have you got to lose?
I am very surprised by the comment that they were somewhat hard to come by. The LHS only has one or two of any item usually. However in the case of the C-Liners there must be about a dozen and a half. Most of them are without sound but some have the sound units installed as well. As one would expect they are CN units, the red and white striped units and the green, black and yellow point schemes.
The units are only A units, but the engine sure would look good hauling the matching Rapido coaches in the green and black livery.
At the suggested prices the regular units are about $85 each, the sound units units are still somewhat pricey around $135 if memory serves me correctly.
A fellow club member bought four of these CPA24-5's, all in New Haven paint. There have been a couple reviews, and quite frankly, IMHO TLT messed up big time on the paint job for NH (and who knows how badly they did for NYC, LIRR, and others). A little history...
True Line Trains (formally Hobby Craft of Canada) announced these models back in 2005 or so as an extension of their 4-axle C-Liners they did for Proto 1000 several years ago. Canadian Model Trains (CMT) is their primary interface with the public, apparently. At the 2006 Springfield (MA) show (Jan.), I pre-ordered one of each for NH from CMT after being told that the 4-fan model should be coming. Around this time, I had heard that the New Haven Railroad Historical & Technical Association (NHRHTA) had given copies of NH Painting & Lettering Diagrams to TLT, along with paint chips, pictures, and more.
At the 2006 NMRA show (July), I saw the pre-production model (undec.) on display for the CPA16-5 (three fans = Canadian version), and was told that the 4-fan model is coming. By December, 2006 (Marlboro, MA show), the Canadian models were out. Around January, 2007, they started posting pre-production shots of the American version (CPA24-5 = four fans)...and the shocking thing was TLT had major paint problems even after the NHRHTA's input (and you couldn't see the fans in any of the pre-producton shots, leaving one to wonder). After a flurry of e-mails and postings on the NH Forum to CMT and TLT, another batch of pre-production models were shown. However, they only fixed a couple minor problems and made no effort to improve any of the major problems. Then I talked to CMT at Springfield this year, and was told that all the problems would be fixed when the NH models came out.
After the show, new pre-production shots were shown online...still wrong. More complaints were sent. Heck, I even sent them prototype pictures comparing them to their model photos, showing them what was wrong by numbering and circling each item and explaining in detail what needed to be fixed, and I was given the ol' "We've forwarded your e-mail." To whom or to what was not given. Oh, and then CMT asked me for $60 per unit just to continue to pre-order them. Since I've never paid to pre-order anything in model railroading and never plan to start (not to mention TLT's less than attractive track record for accuracy), I did not buy any C-Liners.
Finally, these models hit the street...and not only did TLT not paint the NH one's correctly (even after months of input from the NHRHTA and others), they painted all the American paint schemes on the Canadian body (3-fans instead of 4-fans). Arrrrrgggghhhh!
Now they say that the Chinese messed up and put all the American RR's on Canadian bodies and that new shells are on the way. I'll believe when I see it. They also have one more chance to fix both NH schemes...any bets on whether they fix 'em or not? My money is on "NO!"
All that being said, they run real nice. But accuracy? Apparently that's not important to TLT. And that's not even getting to the huge exhaust stacks in the wrong place, the missing brake cylinder on the rear truck (it's a PA truck, not a C-Liner truck), etc.
Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
davidmbedard wrote: My dealer is holding on to mine because he has not gotten the promised replacement shells for the US roads yet. Others (on other forums) are still waiting, too.(The Canadian road names were fine, I believe)Painting your own units has it's benifits........no waiting time.David B
My dealer is holding on to mine because he has not gotten the promised replacement shells for the US roads yet. Others (on other forums) are still waiting, too.(The Canadian road names were fine, I believe)
Painting your own units has it's benifits........no waiting time.
David B
I received mine last week and they are GORGEOUS!
Yes, the Chinese painted the NH colors on the Canadian style bodies. But they are in the process of being replaced.
Even so, 3 fans or no, and the brake cylinder missing. They are going to look fabulous pulling my PRR consist of the 1953 Washington-Boston Federal on the Shore Line to Boston even as is.
Of interest to both Pennsy and New Haven modelers, Union Station Products has notified me that they have produced the sides for the entire PRR Congressional-Federal consist per my request a year ago.
davidmbedard,Ah yes, it's the whine of, "For decades, companies from your country screwed up models from my country, so you have no right to complain when a company from my country screws up on your models!" Huh? You do realize that makes zero sense, right? If you are for accurate models, these inaccurate TLT's should tick you off no matter the road modeled. If you don't care about accuracy, then you shouldn't care if Athearn or Atlas makes a "real" CN or CP unit or not. Which is it? Demanding accurate models for yourself while dismissing calls for accurate models for everyone else strikes me as totally selfish. They should get the paint right, no matter the road.
And as far as "messing up" my "precious paint scheme", they put passenger car lettering on the green/gold C-Liner, and made a lopsided "NH" logo on the black/white/orange C-Liner. These are hardly minor problems. Easy for TLT to fix, but in their arrogance they decided they did not need to. And yes, I can say arrogance due to this question & answer on TLT's own website FAQ:Q: There is something not prototypical with my locomotive, FIX IT!
A: No. We strive to make the most accurate locomotives we can. We research for hours and hours and consult many different professionals for road names, colours, options, etc. We have brought you the best locomotive we could produce, for the most affordable price.
That's obviously a bunch of hooey. Sort of like Athearn's old "Scaled from real railroad blueprints" or some such nonsense they put on those blue boxes of theirs for decades.
Paul3 wrote: And as far as "messing up" my "precious paint scheme", they put passenger car lettering on the green/gold C-Liner, and made a lopsided "NH" logo on the black/white/orange C-Liner. These are hardly minor problems. Easy for TLT to fix, but in their arrogance they decided they did not need to. And yes, I can say arrogance due to this question & answer on TLT's own website FAQ:Q: There is something not prototypical with my locomotive, FIX IT!A: No. We strive to make the most accurate locomotives we can. We research for hours and hours and consult many different professionals for road names, colours, options, etc. We have brought you the best locomotive we could produce, for the most affordable price.That's obviously a bunch of hooey. Sort of like Athearn's old "Scaled from real railroad blueprints" or some such nonsense they put on those blue boxes of theirs for decades.Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
If you do not like what TLT has produced, come out with a competing, more prototypical for US product. And make the paint suit you.
JonathonS,I've got an easier plan. If TLT comes out with something I don't like, I don't buy it. When someone asks about their product (that I don't like) on public discussion model railroad forum, I will explain why. It's a long, long tradition both in this hobby and the rest of the world. I sure hope you are this vigilant in other topics here. Pssst.... Did you hear that MTH is making an HO Triplex? They are getting a lot of heat about it on that topic thread. You should go over there and chastise these MTH critics to start their own company, too. Also, someone is ranting that MR should bring back Student Fare. I hope you're telling those people to start their own magazine...
davidmbedard wrote:
Spoken like a true shake-and-baker.
Spoken like a true hypocrite.
Will the Triplex be done in NH, CP and CN, I hope so, it would be an awesome loco in those schemes, I just hope they get the colours right.
If all else fails in this day of R-T-R
Buy a kit and have some fun
Teditor
davidmbedard,It still doesn't change the fact that TLT screwed up, and you're defending them because they are one of the following:
A) Canadian B) They make Canadian prototypesC) All of the above.
Just to let you know, I actually do a little bit of my own custom painting for myself, my friends, and my fellow club members. Not a lot, but I've got my own paint booth and quite a list of my own projects to get through. Let's see... First I have to paint a Walthers Sand House for my RR club, then I have to finish those 4 Atlas RS-11's & 3 RS-3's for one customer, then I have to get to my Oriental 0-8-0 and NERS 2-6-0 after I decal an MBTA Overland F40PH for another friend. Then there's that NJ/Custom Bass NH railbus and MTS RDC-4 for me, etc. "Shake and baker"? Sorry, but "shake and bakers" don't custom paint anything, let alone brass. So call me some more names if you want to, but FYI "shake and baker" doesn't really apply.
davidmbedard wrote: Wouldnt THAT be what a Model Railroader would do? From what I can tell, it seems that the Model Railroaders of today are more likely to make a phone call or email a mfg than actually bash and paint.David B
Wouldnt THAT be what a Model Railroader would do? From what I can tell, it seems that the Model Railroaders of today are more likely to make a phone call or email a mfg than actually bash and paint.
Sad, but true...I would just be thankful to get a good starting point and make it "my own" from there.
davidmbedard,So, let me get this straight... I should excuse TLT for screwing up because:
1). TLT is a small company.2). TLT is Canadian.3). TLT has limited resources.4). TLT has limited time.5). American manufacturers don't make accurate Canadian models.All model railroad companies are small. They all have limited resources and limited time. If TLT is trying to break into the American market (which they already did with the 4-axle C-Liners, RS-18's and Canadian RDC's for P1K) then why are they offering such a flawed American product? One would think they'd want to get it right and actually create a good buzz about their quality instead of months of arrogantly dismissing calls for improvement.
TLT was given copies of the actual New Haven RR Painting & Letting diagrams for these units by the New Haven Railroad Historical & Technical Association. They were also given magazine articles and pictures of the actual NH C-Liners. TLT did at least three pre-production test shots for the NH over a 7 month span, and the only thing they did was add stipes to the rear of the units and take off "The" and "Railroad Co." off the green/gold unit's nose. TLT has no excuse for not getting the paint job right. None.
As for you not giving pro-Canadian feedback to American manufacturers...that's on you. I have personally managed to get several NH models changed before they were released where if I had sat on my hands nothing would have happened. The NH orange/green RS-1's that Atlas made a few years back had the wrong numbers for that scheme. I posted on the Atlas Forum about it, and after a some e-mails from Rob Pisani and the NHRHTA, they changed the numbers to units that actually wore that scheme. Another was the PSC R-3 4-8-2's that came out with the wrong tender letter font. I posted on the NHRHTA's NH Forum about it, and after much debate, PSC to their credit offered a free tender repaint to fix the problem. I was also able to influence Athearn with their NH 50' twin TOFC and their NETCo. trailers. So to coin a phrase, the squeeky wheel gets the grease. If you sit on your hands and don't let the manufacturers know what's right or wrong, how can you expect them to improve? You strike me as very bitter about the whole thing.
BTW, if I was a "real" model railroader by what I assume is your definition, I would never buy TLT's 5-axle C-Liner. Instead, I would be using MR or RMC articles like Rob Gross and his 4- to 5-axle conversion in the Oct. 2001 RMC using P1K parts, or Bob Boudreau and his article in April 1999's MR using AHM parts. I would just bash away at it, and stop any of my money from going north of the border. If everyone else was like that too, TLT wouldn't sell a thing and would be quickly out of business. Is that what you want?
davidmbedard,I sure wish you'd make up your mind. First you say that I should take the TLT C-Liner and fix it (because that's what a Model Railroader would do), then you say you couldn't care less if I did. If you don't care if I buy it, then why suggest that I fix it?
You then rant about how much spare time I seem to have, yet you have a) far more posts than I on this forum in far less time, and b) you've matched me post for post on this thread right here. Pot...kettle...black. If I have too much spare time, how much sprare time do you have when you post here on average twice as often as I do?
Then you rant about what a waste of time it is to talk to me. Hmmm.... If that was actually the case, then why did you even bother to post in the first place, let alone this latest missive? If I truly was a waste of your time, you wouldn't have even bothered to tell me that I was. The fact that you took the time to tell me off makes me feel all warm and tingly inside. Please, do continue.
Paul3 wrote: JonathonS,I've got an easier plan. If TLT comes out with something I don't like, I don't buy it. When someone asks about their product (that I don't like) on public discussion model railroad forum, I will explain why. It's a long, long tradition both in this hobby and the rest of the world. I sure hope you are this vigilant in other topics here. Pssst.... Did you hear that MTH is making an HO Triplex? They are getting a lot of heat about it on that topic thread. You should go over there and chastise these MTH critics to start their own company, too. Also, someone is ranting that MR should bring back Student Fare. I hope you're telling those people to start their own magazine...Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
I don't make any comments on the Triplex thread because the Triplex holds no interest for me. Likewise I do not participate in the Student Fare discussion as that part of MR never interested me. I fail to see the point of your implication that if I do not have an opinion in all discussions then I cannot have an opinion in any. Can you elucidate on this point? If someone is so interested in the student side of the hobby they should join the Teen Association of Model Railroaders. Or start thier own magazine. That is how Extra 2200 South got started. That is even how MR and Trains got started. Al K. saw the need and decided to produce the magazines to fill that need. What is wrong with someone taking the initiative and supplying a market? And why not you?
My point about you producing a model is valid. Many, if not most, of the Model Railroad manufacturers began because someone decided that they wanted a model of something that was either unavailable, or not modeled well enough to suit them. If you feel strongly enough about having an accurate model of a CPA24-5 instead of using a CPA16-5 as a stand in then go for it and produce a New Haven C-Liner. I for one would buy it, as I will buy the TLT product and modify it to more closely resemble a NH unit and will be glad for its improvement over the AHM model I modified years ago. I have done what I preach as I made and sold a limited number of models of RDG and LV gondolas that have never been produced by any "mainstream" model company. I will not rule out doing something like that again if I want a particular model that is not available and I find that others want the same model too. I will not be making a CPA24-5 as I find that a modified TLT locomotive will fill my needs. But if does not suit you become part of the solution, don't just complain that no one is producing the model you want.
Awe c'mon guys, does this mean that my NH Triplex is to be canned?
I guess a Canadian National Big Boy is out of the question?
JonathonS,Don't misunderstand me, you can certainly post your opinions on any subject you want (as long as Bergie doesn't mind), just like I can post my opinions. But just because we can, doesn't make our opinions logical, correct, or something to be repeated. I'll defend your right to say it, but by no means do I have to agree with it.However, I do ask for one's opinion to be consistant. To "practice what you preach", IOW. If your answer to my criticism of TLT is to start my own company and compete with them, that had better be your answer every time to any criticism of any company. So if someone posts that they don't like paying high prices for gasoline, or if someone in your hearing says they don't like Ford's or Chevys, your opinion should be that these people should start their own refinery or start their own car company and compete with them. If you do, then I'll accept your criticism as valid (I still won't agree with it, but it'd be valid). If you don't, then you are not being consistant, which makes your criticism invalid. Personally, I think people would look at you funny if you told them to start their own company to compete with Exxon or GM, but that's just me.
My major complaint with TLT is not that they slapped NH paint on a CPA-16-5 (they are coming out with the CPA-24-5 replacement shells, or so they say), it's that they did so incorrectly even tho' they had plenty of time and plenty of free information from many sources to get it right, and then arrogantly deny that there's anything wrong. Do you think that sort of thing ought to be rewarded? That TLT should get a standing ovation for screwing up? Why can't they be criticized? Are they doing this for charity? Why are you defending them?
Paul3 wrote: JonathonS,Don't misunderstand me, you can certainly post your opinions on any subject you want (as long as Bergie doesn't mind), just like I can post my opinions. But just because we can, doesn't make our opinions logical, correct, or something to be repeated. I'll defend your right to say it, but by no means do I have to agree with it.However, I do ask for one's opinion to be consistant. To "practice what you preach", IOW. If your answer to my criticism of TLT is to start my own company and compete with them, that had better be your answer every time to any criticism of any company. So if someone posts that they don't like paying high prices for gasoline, or if someone in your hearing says they don't like Ford's or Chevys, your opinion should be that these people should start their own refinery or start their own car company and compete with them. If you do, then I'll accept your criticism as valid (I still won't agree with it, but it'd be valid). If you don't, then you are not being consistant, which makes your criticism invalid. Personally, I think people would look at you funny if you told them to start their own company to compete with Exxon or GM, but that's just me.My major complaint with TLT is not that they slapped NH paint on a CPA-16-5 (they are coming out with the CPA-24-5 replacement shells, or so they say), it's that they did so incorrectly even tho' they had plenty of time and plenty of free information from many sources to get it right, and then arrogantly deny that there's anything wrong. Do you think that sort of thing ought to be rewarded? That TLT should get a standing ovation for screwing up? Why can't they be criticized? Are they doing this for charity? Why are you defending them?Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
To respond to the last paragraph first: While I am not giving TLT a "standing ovation" I do certainly applaud that they are providing the market with an affordable locomotive that has not previously been available outside of a small run of brass. And while it is not the particular variant I would prefer, because it is plastic it will be easily modified and repainted into a good representation of what I want (a NH CPA24-5). As to the paint scheme information you refer to, is the information you cite the only information that TLT had? Probably not. Was there contradictory information as to the correct paint? Very likely. I will refer you to the recent, and very similar, group of communications between the RCT&HS and Athearn about the black frame on Athearn's recently issued Reading RS3. Virtually all color photos show the RS3s with olive green frames. However a thorough investigation showed that the first delivery was painted with black frames, which were very quickly repainted to Olive Green by the Reading . And all subsequent delivery were with olive green frames. Athearn had on hand an official ALCO paint diagram that clearly showed the frames being black. Which side was correct, in this case both. Does TLT have some "official" NH or FM document which shows a different paint scheme?
And to the second paragraph, off topic as it is getting. That is certainly what I believe and the market proves that many others agree. We have the multiplicity of foreign cars available in the USA because people got disgusted with the quality and price that GM/Ford/Chrysler was offering. They decided that a better car could be bought overseas and started importing them for sale here. The same with fuel, that is why we have biodiesel, and ethanol blends (economic and environmental dissatisfaction with the status quo). And why some people, like a neighbor of mine, has replaced the engine in his car with an electric motor and a bank of batteries. Not what I am motivated to do (yet) but more power to all of them.
JonathonS,I see... TLT is to be applauded for simply attempting to make something in HO scale, no matter if they screwed it up or not. I can see your point, but I guess my standards are just too high to applaud a failed effort vs. a successful one (a personal failing, I'm sure).
About the NH paint scheme, this isn't a matter of color as color can change radically depending on the color, the sunlight, the film used, the developer, the age of the paint, and so on. Paint is more a judgement call on historical items, and is something I would be willing to overlook in certain situations. AFAIK, TLT got all the colors on the NH C-Liners correct.
What TLT did was use the NH's passenger car font on a locomotive on the green/gold locos, and used a lopsided "NH" McGinnis logo on the black/white/orange locos. There is nothing to debate about that. I'm always careful when I use the word "never", because one usually doesn't know it all. However, I can say with absolute certainty that the 10 NH C-Liners never had the passenger car font on them (not any NH loco), and that they never had a "NH" McGinnis logo with the "N" being significantly larger than the "H" (on anything). That's a fact based on lots of photos and video of NH locos that I have seen over the last 15 years. You can try to make excuses for TLT all you want, but the simple fact here is that they screwed up multiple times over a 7 month span (three different pre-production shots, all still wrong), then they have denied that they screwed up at all.
Oh, and the NHRHTA Tech. Committee sent TLT the official NH documents for painting and lettering these diesels (which I also have a copy of). TLT has no excuse for not getting it right.
If you can find a prototype picture of a passenger font-equipped C-Liner, or a lop-sided McGinnis logo on a C-Liner, then I will take back everything bad I've ever said about TLT. Somehow, I'm guessing that's not going to happen. I have most every book, magazine and video that's been commercially available about the NH, and some that aren't. I'd love to see you prove me wrong on this one.
About car buying, you are actually contradicting yourself. You've stated that folks who don't like what a company makes should start their own company and make their own products that they like. Then you said that folks got disgusted with the Big Three automakers and started buying foriegn cars...but that's not starting a new company to compete with them, that's buying from a different, existing company. This is the mode that I said I would follow (if I don't like TLT's products, I'll buy something else). You're making my point for me..thanks!
And even the guy that made his own Hybrid car isn't following your advice. He's not starting a new company to compete with the automakers, he's just modifying an existing product.
Teditor wrote:Awe c'mon guys, does this mean that my NH Triplex is to be canned?I guess a Canadian National Big Boy is out of the question?Teditor
I'm feeling rather left out here guys, why can't you pick on me and be nice to each other, this is turning into a real personal conflict that does the hobby no benefit at all, I'm sure every product will have its flaws and accuracies and every company will have its supporters and complainers, but in the long run, we are all human (so the saying goes), so lets get along and enjoy the hobby for what it is, the worlds greatest hobby.
The answer is really quite simple, if you are satisfied with the product, buy - if not, don't buy it, the final overall result will decide if the product/and or company succeed.
My hats off to anyone that attempts to manufacture anything in this day and age of demanded accuracy.
Teditor wrote: Teditor wrote:Awe c'mon guys, does this mean that my NH Triplex is to be canned?I guess a Canadian National Big Boy is out of the question?Teditor I'm feeling rather left out here guys, why can't you pick on me and be nice to each other, this is turning into a real personal conflict that does the hobby no benefit at all, I'm sure every product will have its flaws and accuracies and every company will have its supporters and complainers, but in the long run, we are all human (so the saying goes), so lets get along and enjoy the hobby for what it is, the worlds greatest hobby.The answer is really quite simple, if you are satisfied with the product, buy - if not, don't buy it, the final overall result will decide if the product/and or company succeed.My hats off to anyone that attempts to manufacture anything in this day and age of demanded accuracy.Teditor
I agree with Teditor (well not the left out part ).
And a CP Big Boy would be awesome!
This two-page discussion is rather curious. Doesn't it boil down to: isn't it just as easy to do something correct, as it is to do it wrong? Especially where TLT had the official plans and painting diagrams for the New Haven models. It just seems like common sense to me, and especially if one is going to pay over $100 for a plastic diesel, why should it be necessary to correct details or re-paint the model to make it correct? Most modelers don't have the facilities for painting, anyway. This is an unusual locomotive, that probably won't be done again by someone else, so why not "do it right the first time", as they say in business? Not only would it be better for TLT's business, as ALL modelers who like that loco would be buying it and not complaining about problems, but the company would receive better "PR", instead of getting a "black eye" about stupid mistakes that could have easily been avoided.
I also take exception to this comment fom David Bedard:
"From my point of view, this is no different from what we Canadians have had to endure for the past 30 years in Model Railroading. Nothing has been produced by an American Company that is an accurate model of a Canadian locomotive...nothing."
I have some beautiful MLW C630's in CN and CB&CNS paint, along with VIA F40's and P42's from Overland--they're Canadian models from an American company.
Dave
Greetings! I have one of the 5 axle locomotives and they are great runners. Very well weighted and still lots of room to add decoder and sound. I am looking for another one; they are that good.
OK so I started reading this thread, none of the links work anymore, I didn't recognize any of the posters, only THEN did I look at the date.
Never mind.
Mike.
My You Tube