Curves in N scale

[mikesmowers]

   I am planning to build an N scale  RR, and was wondering about the curves.  I know that in HO a 18'' curve is rather tight, and 22'' curves are much better. What are the limits on curves in N scale? I would like to be able to run some bigger steam locos and some passenger cars. I am planning on modeling in the time frame of about 1880.   Thanks,   Mike

[pcarrell]

Bigger steam loco's in that time period were not real common.  They existed, but they weren't the norm.  About the largest I've seen from that era was a 2-10-0, but that was concidered a BEAST.  2-8-0's and smaller were the more common loco's, with 4-4-0's, 4-6-0's, and 2-6-0's being common and 2-8-0's being on the big side of things.

You can crank an N scale curve down pretty tight (9.75r), but your trains won't like it.  11 or 12 inches is better, but 15r would make a world of difference.

Personally, I don't go less then 17.50, and thats extreme (hidden track only).  20"r is my minimum for "on stage" trackage.

I'd recommend building an HO scale plan as is, only adjusting for the track centers on parallel tracks.  You'll have better running trains and you'll have room to maximize the scenic effects that N scale is so well suited for.

Just my

[R. T. POTEET]

I'll avoid any of my sarcastic levity and try to, indeed, be helpful.

Firstly, N Scale's relationship to HO Scale is a precise 6:11.0236 ratio; you can round that off to a 6:11 ratio and be less than a quarter of one percent too small.  Take 18 inches divide by 11 and multiply by 6 and you will come up with 9.82 (9 13/16) inches; that HO Scale 22 inch radius curve scales down to 12 inches in N Scale. With these figures in mind I think you can probably see why N Scalers very frequently utilize HO Scale (track) measurements for their layouts. An N Scale 18 inch radius curve scales up to a 33 inch HO Scale curve; a 22 inch radius curve scales up proportionately. An N Scale 4 by measures to an HO Scale 7 1/3 by 14 2/3 feet . . . . . . . . . . and you don't need any access hatches!!!

Unfortunately Mike, you will find that the modeling era you outline in your post is going to be an extremely difficult one to model in N Scale. The predominant locomotive of that era was the American Standard 4-4-0 followed in popularity by the Mogul 2-6-0 and the Ten-Wheeler 4-6-0.  There were some Decapod 2-10-0s around and the Consolidation 2-8-0 was growing in popularity and would, by the turn of the Century, become the dominant locomotive on American rails. There were no Mikado 2-8-2s nor Pacific 4-6-2s nor any other large steam locomotives gracing the rails.

Model Power has the American Standard 4-4-0 and the Mogul 2-6-0 available but I can offer no testimony as to how these might run.  The MDC/Athearn Consolidation 2-8-0 has lines appropriate for the 1880s era; when this locomotive first became available as a Roundhouse product it did not get enthusiastic reviews, however Athearn has apparently improved it and more recent reviews give it higher ratings. The Decapod and Ten-Wheeler pose a problem because none are, or have ever been, offered; you should keep in mind, however, that only the Pennsylvania Railroad fielded a sizable fleet of the Decapod wheel arrangement and they were virtual giants - what did they call them? Hippos? - compared to the size you would have encountered in the 1880s. The Ten-Wheeler was quite ubiquitous and it is therefore surprising that N Scale manufacturers have virtually ignored that wheel arrangement.

Depending upon your skill level you could probably 'bash' a Decapod or Ten-Wheeler using a number of available chassis/boilers as a base; keep in mind that such a 'bash' would require both frame and superstructure modification.

 Assuming that you can accept 4-4-0s, 2-6-0s, and 2-8-0s as motive power your main predicament is going come in freight car rolling stock; there just ain't none! A few years back Roundhouse offered 'old time' freight cars that were similiar to cars of that era and could be made to work. Bachmann also had rolling stock from that era but they disappeared years ago.

Things are a little rosier in the passenger car field, however,  they may be just a little hard to lay your hands on.  MDC/Roundhouse put out the 34 foot 'shorties' and the scale specific hobby mags have had articles on lengthening these; MDC/Roundhouse also offered 50 foot cars in the same general configuration which modelers have also stretched into longer units. MDC/Roundhouse at one time offered 80 foot Pullman Palace cars which were, pure and simple, drop-dead-gorgeous. Unfortunately - I sure am tired of that word but have yet to figure out how to avoid using it; maybe I should start saying infelicitously or unhappily - anyway, as luck would have it, to the best of my knowledge none of these are currently available.

Let me add one thing in regards to Passenger cars.  N Scale Railroading Magazine began a series in their Sept-Oct '07 issue by Paul J. Downs titled Easy Car Sides for Modernized Heavyweights; I can't see why, if a car can be modernized, it could not be backdated with wood-sheathing to create a car appropriate to the 1880s era which you have indicated you would like to model.

Hope I have been of some assistance with my response.  

[pcarrell]

I'm sorry, but I see this all a bit differently. Let me show you what I mean.

Firstly, N Scale's relationship to HO Scale is a precise 6:11.0236 ratio; you can round that off to a 6:11 ratio and be less than a quarter of one percent too small.  Take 18 inches divide by 11 and multiply by 6 and you will come up with 9.82 (9 13/16) inches; that HO Scale 22 inch radius curve scales down to 12 inches in N Scale. With these figures in mind I think you can probably see why N Scalers very frequently utilize HO Scale (track) measurements for their layouts. An N Scale 18 inch radius curve scales up to a 33 inch HO Scale curve; a 22 inch radius curve scales up proportionately. An N Scale 4 by measures to an HO Scale 7 1/3 by 14 2/3 feet . . . . . . . . . . and you don't need any access hatches!!!

While this is all true mathmatically, it's not that simple.  You can't just scale things down and expect them to work right.  Some parts get too small and just have to be made a little oversized in order to function.  Based on my many years (decades) in N scale I still hold that while a 9 and whatever radius is possible, it's certainly nowhere near the optimum.  I'd still push for a 12"r as an absolute minimum for decent operation.

Unfortunately Mike, you will find that the modeling era you outline in your post is going to be an extremely difficult one to model in N Scale.

While you won't have a flood of choices, I think you'd be suprised by the variety available.  There's actually quite a bit to pick from if you look around.

Model Power has the American Standard 4-4-0 and the Mogul 2-6-0 available but I can offer no testimony as to how these might run. 

They run quite well, though they lack some pulling power.  The 4-4-0 can be fixed by getting the traction tired upgrade for the Pacific.  It's the same size and gear as the one on the 4-4-0.

The MDC/Athearn Consolidation 2-8-0 has lines appropriate for the 1880s era; when this locomotive first became available as a Roundhouse product it did not get enthusiastic reviews, however Athearn has apparently improved it and more recent reviews give it higher ratings.

I have two MDC/Athearn 2-8-0's and two 2-6-0's and they are excellent runners.  The only thing that Athearn did is added paint schemes and changed out the couplers.  Other then that, it's the same loco.

The Decapod and Ten-Wheeler pose a problem because none are, or have ever been, offered;

Not true!  I own a Minitrix Decapod that I am currently rebuilding as an 1890's era Mother Hubbard based on the Prototype shown at the Worlds Fair.  Here's one here......

Minitrix also makes a fine 0-6-0 old timer with a wonderful tender that would work very well as a heavy switcher.  It's a Pennsy B6 design, but that can be fixed easy enough to make it more generic.

The ten wheler has not been done yet, but the rumor mill is saying that one may surface soon.

Assuming that you can accept 4-4-0s, 2-6-0s, and 2-8-0s as motive power your main predicament is going come in freight car rolling stock; there just ain't none! A few years back Roundhouse offered 'old time' freight cars that were similiar to cars of that era and could be made to work. Bachmann also had rolling stock from that era but they disappeared years ago.

Fortunately this is not true.  Both Bachmann and MDC/Athearn have produced a wide variety of rolling stock that are dead ringers (36ft cars and smaller) for this era.  The MDC/athearn cars can be had at ANY well stocked hobby shop or ordered online easily.  The Bachmann cars are out of production, but they made so many they're easy to find.  I went to a train show not long ago and several vendors had large supplies that they were practically giving away the prices were so cheap.

Things are a little rosier in the passenger car field, however,  they may be just a little hard to lay your hands on.  MDC/Roundhouse put out the 34 foot 'shorties' and the scale specific hobby mags have had articles on lengthening these; MDC/Roundhouse also offered 50 foot cars in the same general configuration which modelers have also stretched into longer units. MDC/Roundhouse at one time offered 80 foot Pullman Palace cars which were, pure and simple, drop-dead-gorgeous. Unfortunately - I sure am tired of that word but have yet to figure out how to avoid using it; maybe I should start saying infelicitously or unhappily - anyway, as luck would have it, to the best of my knowledge none of these are currently available.

You missed the Bachmann 60 footers.

But then most of this goes well beyond the original question.

Please see my last post or two in our 1880's thread as I give a lot of links to the stuff I've just mentioned.

[Wdlgln005]

For mainline N curves, your best bet is to follow the Ntrak standards. Easily, curves 15-20-22" work best with any modern power & passenger cars. 12" is OK, there are some 9" tight curves. Save those for branchlines in industrial areas.

For "big steam" you may mean Athearn's challenger or LL's Berkshire, or Bachmann's new J. If your layout can handle those, it will handle most everything else. ConCor is releasing more old RR heavyweights. I don't know how much longer they may be around. Your best bet may be to look at swap meets, consignment sales, etc.

For a 19th century layout, the MDC/Athearn models are an excellent choice. THe height of the tender due to the motor inside makes it look different. Athearn added new paint & couplers. You may still find some MDC product at Trainworld for $50.

Another good choice is the Atlas/micro-ace Mogul. It makes a sweet little engine. It may be better than Bachmann's old American. I'd like to see Bachmann upgrade more of their line. There may be more closeout "sales" of older Bachmann product.  

 

[BRAKIE]

I believe the larger the curve the better..However,in N Scale I like my curves to be at least 18"..

[Anonymous]

Atlas Shay, Atlas 2-6-0 mogul, Bachmann 4-4-0 mogul, Athearn 2-8-0 and 2-6-0 and maybe a Bachmann 2-8-0 and the Kato Mikato are the ones I know of. All these will run on 11" radius (maybe less). Personally I'd try and stick with 12" or wider and of course, the wider the better.

For 180 degree turnaround I found 32" wide to work about right, maybe a little more if you have it. If you are pulling a grade it is advantageous to use wider radius.

Also I found that If i had a curve coming off a turnout, very advantageous to  put a piece of fixed radius track and not flex track. Flex tends to pry on the turnouts and create kinks. After a fixed radius piece (which, BTW, you can bend if you cut the ties), then you can go flex.

Learn how to solder track without melting ties (you need liquid flux). A quick swipe is all you need.

[tgindy]

What are the limits on curves in N scale?

Here's a link to N Scaler, "Spookshow," who has a straight-forward way of describing his four N Scale layout experiences...

http://www.visi.com/~spookshow/layouts.html 

• Under "N Scale Layout #1" do a webpage word search, "radius," and on the 1st hit you'll see this phrase:  "And I am definitely going to avoid anything like the two narrow-radius, 180 degree curves I employed. Guess where all the derailing happened? Next layout, nothing tighter than 19"-radius, 90 degree curves!"

• Under "N Scale Layout #2" do a webpage word search, "radius," and on the 1st hit you'll see this phrase:  "I finished relaying/reconfiguring my track. Most of my locomotives seem to be happy now, although there are still a couple (steam, naturally) that just don't seem to like 9 3/4" radius curves in general, especially on the steep grades."
  

• Under "N Scale Layout #3" do a webpage word search, "radius," and on the 1st hit you'll see this phrase:  "As mentioned above, no lengthy tunnels, no curves sharper than 11" radius and no grades steeper than 3% (or even 2% if I can manage it)."
  

Spookshow's N Scale layout discussions are backed up with many pictures.

[pcarrell]

For a 19th century layout, the MDC/Athearn models are an excellent choice. THe height of the tender due to the motor inside makes it look different. 

There is an actual prototype for this tender, but I forget where I saw it.  It wasn't a real common design though.