Alright,
I posted a few months back discussing the building of a "room" within my garage (very old, eventually needs to be rebuilt, but can't do it at this time) for my drums, and possibly for my model railroad. The drummer in me won out, and so now I have an almost-finished room for my drums (the drummer in me is very happy, the MRR'er a little bummed).
So, the good news is I still have a nice rectangular 17ft x 6.5ft space in the (very) unfinished portion of the garage to build a layout.
I will no doubt be a shelf-style layout - a large oval. I will likely only scenic and work on one of the long sides of the oval first, and that may be enough to keep me busy into the forseeable future (run my own business, baby #2 due in October - you get the picture...)
What tips to people have for building in the garage? I'm trying to figure out which would make more sense:
a) making a "shadowbox" style layout, completely enclosed, with a "curtain" over the front for keeping out dust. Note, this would be easy to flip up when "playing" with my trains
b) keeping the layout fairly open, making it easier to blow the layout off with compressed air (have an air compressor) - fun for blowing dust all over the place.
c) say forget it to the HO layout, and get started on a garden layout (no experience in this) in the yard, and enjoy running trains under the moonlight...
There was an old issue of MR where Bob Smaus discussed tips for building a layout in the garage, but that back issue is sold out. He mentioned in another article his desire to have the layout easy to clean off, etc. because he built it in his garage, and in fact needed to open the garage door while operating if he wanted full access to it.
Let's hear your tips, ideas, etc....
Well...Living in Santa Barbra, an outside Garden RR sounds like a winner to me.
I think that if I lived out your way, I would love to do a garden RR. Here in Northern MN. it's a bit harder many months of the year and so I have a room with artificial heat and light.
Sounds like you're not sure which way you want to go. Draw up a pros and cons list of the "indoor" and "outdoor" pikes. Be VERY fair and honest with yourself, weigh the info. and it may be a simple choice.
As for a tid-bit of advice: If you do build a pike in the garage (that is and will remain dirty), by all means, being able to close up the layout with a curtained box, or flip down sides, or what ever is a must. Even in a dedicated Trainroom things will get way dusty....If it's out in a garage with an open door and all sort of garage related activates going on...You'll have more dust and dirt than you will be able to keep up with. And all that dirt can rune stuff to boot.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
I understand the recommendations for finishing the garage, but it actually needs to be rebuilt, and that's not going to happen at this time.
The house was built in the 40's, and is in good shape (plus we just did a lot of work on it). In the 40's, apparently garages were not built to the same standards as houses. It really needs to be torn down.
So either I have to either figure out how to use it as is, or put off building a layout for 5 years or so. This is where the shadow box idea comes in.
Yikes, looking at G-scale prices is just scary. I'm thinking I'll likely do something in the garage (like a module with a return loop), and hone my scenery skills, etc. on dioramas and that type of thing for a while.
Put me in the shadow box camp - athough I am thinking more 'showcase' than shadowbox. An added benefit is that the closed overhead valence makes it easy to mount lighting 'a la Joe Fugate.'
My garage is finished, but vented to the outside (as required by code) in an area where flying dust is a given. I suspect that I will end up with clear plastic shower curtain material velcroed to the inside of the valence - easy to remove for construction, maintenance or problem correction, but can be left in place during 'hands off' operation. (Opaque shower curtain material velcroed under the fascia is good for hiding the junkpile!)
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - in dusty Southern Nevada)
Santa Barbara:
I had a similar problem years ago. The garage was to by model railroad home, so I built one 22 feet long and averaging 3 feet wide. I too was concerned with dust and even more, bugs and mice. So, I bought some pretty heavy duty wall mounting brackets...the kind where you mount one bracket to a wall and the other to the item to be hanged (such as a mirror perhaps). The brackets slip one into the other.
Now, one set of brackets (i.e. the female type) gets attached to the facia, which I left as painted 1X4s so as to be a solid piece to screw in the brackets. The other brackets (the male type) are attached to pieces of hardboard, roughly two to three feet in length and about 10 inches high (two brackets per piece of hardboard). After attaching the brackets, the harboard will fit snuggly into the brackets on the facia. This takes careful measurements to get the brackets lined up perfectly.
When all the brackets are afixed and the hardboard is bracketed to the layout, there is still a problem with dust coming in from above. Next, I took 1 inch pink foam baords and cut them so they would lay at aboout a 25 degree angle above the layout with one edge on the hardboard and the other (back edge) resting against the garage wall. Hence, the pink board must be cut so that it slopes toward the edge of the layout in order to support itself without any fasteners. Also, you can sweep any dust off the pink foam board that may accumulate over time and have it drop to the floor or in a dust pan.
It worked well for me for several years. It was quite tricky getting the brackets to be in alignment...I just measured several times to be sure it was right. The pink board is easier with a sharp blade and snapping. Of course when you have everything set up, it pays to number your hardboard sections, because they will only fit in one place. You only need to remove the foam board and lift out the hardboard before operating the layout. Also, if I wanted to work on a small portion of the layout, I just removed those certain sections.
I since tore the layout down because I now have a nice room in the house to work with thanks to my very loving wife of 23 years.
Good luck with your project.
Mike
Just how bad is the condition of the garage? Is it beyond any repairs such as jacking and sistering up a few studs or even a few rafters? A garage in Santa Barbera, even very old, shouldn't be rotted and ready to fall down.
If it is to be many, many years before you could ever rebuild the garage, I would recommend simple repairs to shore it up and Drywall the ceiling and walls. Most old garages only have a few crossties (joists) to hold the side walls from spreading outward from the roof load. Adding the remaining ones and finishing the ceiling would control 90% of the dust. You could use a 3/8" board or plywood also. The quality of this work isn't that critical since it is to be temparary.
This may be easy to say comming from a carpenter, but even if you're not that handy, try to have a capable freind help you out with this project. Your train will be happier and so will you.
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
Just a couple of additional thoughts here....
Yes, the G scale stuff is expensive, but as a friend of mine down in Northern IL, that has a rather extensive garden layout, has pointed out: He gets by with much less then I do. And he has a point. Seems that I have more rolling stock (locos for that fact too) then I really need.....Where he's got 100 times the trackage (his entire back yard and then some), REAL running water, trees and shrubs, and one tenth the cars and locos! Seems the scenario is that items are more expensive...But it takes less to be convincing.
And, as I mentioned and Chuck "tomikawaTT" too for that matter; if you don't do anything else with the garage, you at the ever least have to give some sort of protection.
David Barrow (sp?) did a domino type of sectional diorama thing. There were a number of articles in MR (I think in the mid 90's) with his methods. You could expand on this "domino type thing" with a top, back and some sort of temporary cover on the front and sides too.
This would be a great way for you to get started. As you build each of the module / diorama / shadowbox (what ever you wish to call them), they could be designed to connect with each other. Basically building one scene / diorama at a time with the intent that they could all be assembled into your dream pike without all the protective coverings....When you have a room / garage for it.
I guess where I'm trying to go is...Don't let a lack of space or what's seen as a poor space, keep you from moving forward. Get the mind and the hands going with building a MRR. I say this , as I let my MRR dream stay on the back burner for nearly ten years......I could have / should have been building something!
Just an additional 2 cents.
Thanks everyone for the words of encouragement, tips, etc.
The garage is not quite about to fall down, but light can be seen through it in several places. For my drums, I had a room-within-a-room made, 4 walls, roof, ceiling, all painted/caulked with waterproof paint, and covered in Tyvek paper. (I even framed two of the walls myself, since our contractor is getting married on Saturday, and I wanted to get it done before his wedding!).
The garage isn't about to fall down, but I don't want to spend anymore money on it than I must (having a "home" for my drums is a must )
Regarding having a G scale layout, that does sound like fun, but looking at the prices, I just think the money spent would cause it to not be as fun. I'm apparently a natural-born cheapskate. To me, this hobby should not be expensive. I just feel like I should be able to get a boxcar for the price of a sandwich, locomotive for the price of a decent dinner with my wife, etc. When it's more than that, it just doesn't feel as fun.
(the thought of weathering and not doing a good job and screwing up a $300 locomotive just seems nuts). I remember being practically laughed at when I was at a big name hobby shop in Southern California once because I only was interested in the "plastic" engines. Give me a break. Some people's sense of priorities are just different from mine.
For my other hobby (drumming), I have to fork over cash to buy equipment, but for some reason it just seems proper that a "musical instrument" is expensive. (This must be partially due to the fact that I grew up in a family where playing a musical instrument was considered a "right" that we all should have, etc.)
For my "toy trains", however, forking over $300-ish at a time for a loco just doesn't feel good. $70-$80 a few times per year, I can rest easy with that.
To throw another thought out there, I also toyed with the concept of having a good chunk of the layout roll outside on casters for taking natural lighting pictures. I'm still 1/2 tempted to do that.
Hi SBCA
The old its too expensive to build a garden railway falsehood
I have just about given up OO scale (4mm scale) trains because they are too expensive the same goes for HO.
My garden railway was cheaper to build than anything I have ever done inside.
If you cannot line and dust proof the space you want to build the railway in, and there is no space inside your house to set up a model railway forget it dust and dirt are the worst enemy of small scale trains.
You must have a clean well lit area to build an indoor model railway in.
Other wise you will get very off building in the area, and having dust and dirt stuck to that new just built piece of scenery you just demolished because all the muck stuck to the glue before it dried properly.
A box style layout with curtains just will not beat the problem the curtains may just make the problem worse as they will hold the dirt and dump it on the layout every time you open them.
regards John
Just an update - still working on figuring out my layout concept.
An option I'm now thinking of is making two modules - each 12ft long and 2 ft deep, stacked on top of each other. One will be a "city scene", the other a very basic single track scene with track moving through nothing but scenery (maybe a bridge crossing a river bed, etc.)
These could both have removable plexiglass covers on them to keep the dust out - could even have a gasket made of foam insulation, etc. to really keep the dust out.
Then as you're looking at the modules, there will be a loop of track going behind your back. This will be code 100 atlas track, nothing fancy. Will probably get dirty, but can be sprayed off with compressed air - or maybe even build a transparent enclosure over it.
The unscenicked loop will also contain a sector plate, so that I could move trains (maybe 6ft long or so) from the top level to the bottom level.
My space is 6.5ft wide x 17ft long. If I try to make a fully enclosed shelf layout (as opposed to an unscenicked, 1 track wide loop), the space will be much too tight.
Will try to get some pictures up in a week or so...
I'm really trying to figure out how to have everything I want (city as well as scenic scene), but built module-style so that I could easily move them out in the future without scrapping them. (each 2 x 12ft module will probably be made of two 2 x 6ft sections).
SBCA , got a name?
I have built a few layouts in unfinished garages and it was very discouraging as you guessed it, I had to clean like crazy before I could run a train. I inplimented the shadowbox idea in my garage for my current layout. I would still put up drywall, its not that expensive considering the benefit. It does not have to be perfect. I installed a drop cieling over the layout only and I do not use the space above for storage as this would cause dust to be knokced into the layout every time I move stuff around. I have not put any protective curtain of any kind and it doesn't seem to need one. I do vacume from time to time but its not that bad. I clean the track ocasionally, but mostly just use some Rail Zip then wipe off the rail with strips of old t-shirts.
See my WWW for more pics.
By the way, we don't live all that close to each other but if you do settle on a plan maybe I could get up there for a day or two to help with bench work.
John
SBCA wrote:Thanks everyone for the words of encouragement, tips, etc.The garage is not quite about to fall down, but light can be seen through it in several places. For my drums, I had a room-within-a-room made, 4 walls, roof, ceiling, all painted/caulked with waterproof paint, and covered in Tyvek paper. (I even framed two of the walls myself, since our contractor is getting married on Saturday, and I wanted to get it done before his wedding!).The garage isn't about to fall down, but I don't want to spend anymore money on it than I must (having a "home" for my drums is a must )Regarding having a G scale layout, that does sound like fun, but looking at the prices, I just think the money spent would cause it to not be as fun. I'm apparently a natural-born cheapskate. To me, this hobby should not be expensive. I just feel like I should be able to get a boxcar for the price of a sandwich, locomotive for the price of a decent dinner with my wife, etc. When it's more than that, it just doesn't feel as fun.(the thought of weathering and not doing a good job and screwing up a $300 locomotive just seems nuts). I remember being practically laughed at when I was at a big name hobby shop in Southern California once because I only was interested in the "plastic" engines. Give me a break. Some people's sense of priorities are just different from mine. For my other hobby (drumming), I have to fork over cash to buy equipment, but for some reason it just seems proper that a "musical instrument" is expensive. (This must be partially due to the fact that I grew up in a family where playing a musical instrument was considered a "right" that we all should have, etc.)For my "toy trains", however, forking over $300-ish at a time for a loco just doesn't feel good. $70-$80 a few times per year, I can rest easy with that. To throw another thought out there, I also toyed with the concept of having a good chunk of the layout roll outside on casters for taking natural lighting pictures. I'm still 1/2 tempted to do that.
glad im not the only one who finds it hard to spend more than $60 on a loco. :P
red p wrote:if it was me I would finish the garage first. It will work out a lot better in the long run
I sorta feel the same way, you definately won't have as much of a "dust" issue then to deal with. I love my RR in the out building, but can see your thoughts about the garden also.
Pro's & con's would be a good idea, as well as money and time to consider.
Good luck!
Insulation!
You'll need it! I was doing my layout in an uninsulated "rough" garage for about 2 years here in sunny SoCal and it SUCKED! Hot Hot Hot in the Summer and cold in the winter and SB aint that much different than my neck of the woods.
We rebuilt the garage now its fully insulated, still needs a small AC unit installed thru the wall but its still much more comfortable.
I finished my garage off with 4x8 sheets of 7/16' OSB board, they were practically giving the stuff away at Home Despot, like $5 a sheet! so its got a good surface to work with.
Have fun with your trains
Blowing the dust off a layout with compressed air may not eliminate your only dust problem. If dust can settle on your layout, it can also stick to any exposed (or otherwise not sealed off from outside airflow such as inside you locomotives) lubricated surface. This dust will not blow off but may effectively increase the lubricant's viscosity to the point that the locomotive would have to disassembled, cleaned, reassembled and relubricated if the locomotive is left on the layout between operating sessions.
vsmith wrote: Insulation! You'll need it! I was doing my layout in an uninsulated "rough" garage for about 2 years here in sunny SoCal and it SUCKED! Hot Hot Hot in the Summer and cold in the winter and SB aint that much different than my neck of the woods.We rebuilt the garage now its fully insulated, still needs a small AC unit installed thru the wall but its still much more comfortable. I finished my garage off with 4x8 sheets of 7/16' OSB board, they were practically giving the stuff away at Home Despot, like $5 a sheet! so its got a good surface to work with.
I'll second that. Unfortunately our layouts are sensitive to not only dust but humidity and temperature swings. There are those who don't do much on the layout in the summer because its 100+ and did not insulate .
If you have the space in the house build a switching layout in a controlled environment. This will develop your skills also, call it a test. Then in time you will rebuild the garage to your specifications maybe even add on a second floor.
You certainly have a variety of recommendations, so I'll throw mine in with the "shadow box and curtain" group. I believe most of the dust on the curtain will stay outside the layout. Personally, I would not blow dust around because I think it will blow into places it would never settle naturally. Instead, I would use a vacuum cleaner if I could arrange it so the exhaust from the vacuum didn't blow more dust around.
I am appreciating everyone's insight.
I'm hesitant to do any more work on the garage. It just doesn't make a ton of sense to work on something that you'll have to un-do in a few years anyway.
At 32, my wife and I have lived places with good garages, bad garages, lived here, lived there, etc. Life keeps moving and moving and moving. No model railroads are getting built. If I wait until I have the "proper space", something else will no doubt come into play. I need to start ASAP, and start with a method that is portable, and not sensitive to location. I need to be able to be hardcore into MRR'ing for 2 months, then forget about it for 2 months (this is how hobbies seem to go with me), but not let the layout be getting dirty, etc. during that time.
Maybe I could call it, "Extreme Modular Railroading".
Regarding the blowing around of the dust - good points. I could have the return loops fully enclosed in plexiglass.
Here's what's gotten me thinking about the need for close-able dust-free boxes. Just look at the beautiful trackside photo shot from (arrrggg his names escapes me - the guy who does lots of photos for other people's layouts) in the most recent MR (the one with all the articles about trees).
If I ever did any work that beautiful, I'd really want it in more of a "display case", than just out in the open in the garage, even if the garage was more like a drywalled and insulated garage. Heck, I'd want that beautiful scene enclosed in a case if it was in my house!
When the layout is "open", I won't be running the table saw, etc., so I could imagine keeping it relatively dust-free when in operation.
Keep the ideas coming.
P.S. - I'm now leaning towards extremely simple trackplans. Just checkout Pelle Soeborgs work to see that complex trackplanning alone does not a fine railroad make! His plan is quite simple, and he has arguably one of the most realistic looking layouts ever.
-James
After all of this discussion, and more on another similar thread, I decided to bite the bullet and do the garage thing right.
Being in Sunny Scottsdale, AZ ( 111 yesterday) it gets a little warm in the garage even though the house is constructed of 8 inch thick hollow core cement blocks. The house is in a cul de sac so it faces Northeast, but that puts the garage wall facing the Northwest where is gets direct sunlight in the afternoon. Insulation of that wall was a must.
First order of the day. Air conditioning. I got quotes for roof top units, but nothing I could afford. I bought three 8,000 BTU window units on sale instead. We had to cut three windows in the cement block wall, which was the dirty part of the job. We also had to bring in three 15 amp dedicated circuits from the breaker box which was over 70 feet away on th other end of the house. The electrician ran conduit throught the crawl space which had room for another 20 amp circiit to operate the trains.
Next came furring with 2 x 3 studs place flat and filled between with 2 inch foam insulation board. Then dry wall. All walls were textured and painted 2 coats desert golden tan latex paint. The ceiling was also given two coats flat white light latex paint.
The steel overhead doors, were also insulated with 2 inch foam batts HD sells for this purpose and the whole door was painted white to lighten the place up a little.
A row of 5 4 foot 2 lamp recessed fluourescent fictures was installed over the layout area. They were recessed to clear the overhead door when opened.
The final step was expoxy garage floor coating, a base coat, a second coat with "sprinkles" strewn on it, and a final gloss coat. Now, no more dust, and it looks FABULOUS.
Now I have to decide whetheer to build an 8 x 19 foot "test" oval or a 21 x 19 foot model railroad. Not an easy decision, especially when getting into a 150 degree car on summer days from being left out in the everlasting sunshine.
I'll post some pics when I can.
Being a frustrated model railroader with a nonexistent budget and both a garage and basement that are un useable, all I can say is "I feel your pain". Good luck with what ever path you choose.
Reality...an interesting concept with no successful applications, that should always be accompanied by a "Do not try this at home" warning.
Hundreds of years from now, it will not matter what my bank account was, the sort of house I lived in, or the kind of car I drove...But the world may be different because I did something so bafflingly crazy that my ruins become a tourist attraction.
"Oooh...ahhhh...that's how this all starts...but then there's running...and screaming..."
James,
I can undersatand where you are coming from. I live in a house, but it is one we are renting. There is a whole slew of things I would do in a heart beat if we owned this house, but... well..rentals...
I was putting myself in your place. I think I can picture what you are dealing with. 2 things came into mind that I would be tempted to do.
Assuming the roof is sealed up, just the walls are kinda sketchy. 2 options you could do to seal them up..
Super Cheap: Good: Go out and by some super heavy duty plastic sheeting, like the kind for landscapeing or paint drop cloths. Id probably just get the heavy duty black and tack or staple it to the walls. Dont get me wrong, its gonna stink for awhile, but after time, it will give you super nice clean look in there, and make the walls sealed against bugs and dust.
Cheap: Better: At home improvement store, you can by wall paneling that is ment to go in bathrooms. Kinda of plastic, water proof materail. It comes in 4x8 sheets, and they put it around the bottom half, sowhen they hose the floor, it doesnt soak the dray wall. Usually comes white, easly paint blue and you are ready to rock. Buy a bunch of sheets and put it up. Same as a above. Seal the walls, and it is water proof. Just some ideas for the room.
Both of them user freindly to do. The plastic sheting, you do in a couple of hours. The plastic paneling I bet you do for under a couple hundred bucks and have most of done in a day.
Ah, just outside the box here. Good luck
Best Regards, Big John
Kiva Valley Railway- Freelanced road in central Arizona. Visit the link to see my MR forum thread on The Building of the Whitton Branch on the Kiva Valley Railway
SBCA,
I too have the same problem with an unfinished garage (the other is that I'm Renting) So I'm going the Boxed Benchwork route after reading article by Trevor Marhall in RMC Dec 05 issue.
Travon,
Could you elaborate on the "boxed benchwork"? Was the idea to have it in a semi-dirty area, etc.?