Why long drill tracks

[Dave-the-Train]

Hudson...

The basic answer to all your questions (except 2) is "Yes"... within my (foreign) understanding of US practice.  Various people might correct me on this... or give alternate scenarios...

As I understand it...

• Broadly the same thing applies to both a 3rd Main and a passing siding on Single track.
• The Main(s) are designated.
• An additional track is provided which runs basically parralel to the Main(s).
• The additional track can be just a train length (whatever that may be) OR almost any distance.
• The additional track can be on either side of the Main track(s).  (I don't know if a 3rd Main can be down the middle - but this would tend to restrict its use significantly).
• The additional track is located on the side that it will be most useful - at least in the original plan... this may change - Additional and Man Track could be swapped over at a later date but this would be "more or less" complicated.  (Depending on how much is being done with either track, what signalling, if any, they have and possible the configuration of switches leading in/out.
• A Passing Siding may have a switch at one end only.  RR prefer to provide switches at both ends to be able to use the siding wothout back-up moves.  back-ups both take more time and have a higher risk of cars derailing.
• Both Passing Sidings and 3rd Mains might have more than one switch/crossover leading in/out of them... depending on their length and planned use.
• (Switches that are no longer used can be fixed out of use... we don't usually model this because we lack space and switches cost $)
• Once there is an additional track parralelling the Main it makes Operating sense to take as many leads off of that track as possible - subject to geometry allowing it, possibly some Rule restrictions (that I don't know about) and planned use.
• With the majority, if not all, the switches in the additional track several things are achieved - The Main may be permitted a higher running speed. - The signalling for the Main may be more simple - Maintenance on the Main is reduced to plain line maintenance which (broadly speaking) is less complex and less frequent. - once into the additional track whatever train is put in the is in a world of its own provided that it doea nothing to foule the Main track ... This has advantages for both the additional track and the Main.  The train on the additional track can go about its business "in peace" and without watching the clock so closely for any time it would otherwise need to clear a Main that it was working on.  Trains on the Main can go by unhindered... further, as they approach they don't need to check that the Main has been cleared by a working train:- 'cos it's off the Main and working out of the way.
• BUT!  Some of the switches in the additional track may lead through diamonds in the Main track to facilities on the other side of the main track.  Obviously the RR will try to keep these to a minimum.  Whenever a move across the Main needs to be made permission has to be obtained to block the Main and the activity is subject to all the usual features of blocking the main.  Nevertheless, just as when you take your car across a crossroads you can get out of the way of traffic quicker than if you turn left or right putting a movement across a main via a Diamond (should) take less time than a movement via or to/from the Main.  Therefore it is still good/worth the extra cost of the diamond.
• (A diamond is also less of a line-speed issue and less maintenance than a switch - because all the parts are fixed -  and less maintenance than a switch ... but more than plain track).
• (Getting across a Main and back to parralel is going to take more length than just a switch out of the main.  BUT, if you want to put a road into a facility at an awkward angle getting started from at least a track seperation width away can make life easier - to help this an additional track may swing out of parralel for some distance - an additional track can do this more freely and in shorter distance than a Main... wiggles in Main tracks tend to bring the speed down unless they can be made over a longer distance with more flowing curves)
• (On a model moving out of parralel and crossing the Main(s) with a diamond(s) is a great way of fitting a spur(s) into layout corners).
• {As always adding a track is subject to available real estate, land prices and traffic demand coving the cost.}
• .
• Just what the configuration is will depend on the location - AND what the original set-up was - PLUS what has happened since.  If you want you can build up a theoretical history of how things got to be the shape they are... you can use this to explain some pretty weird situations.  this happened in real RR.  The thing to recall is that the more weird things don't last long unless the RR cannot make an amendment.
• (As an example of a weird practice - I read ages ago of a situation in which a RR lost a bridge.  The solution (in one direction) was to run trains almost up to the bridge, reverse them (propelling the train) down a branch line right through to another Main - of another Company - and then run them forward back to their own lines via the other Company and a junction on the other side of the river.  This went on for some time because of the cost and amount of work replacing the bridge).  (This provides me with an excuse to add another RR - the one diverting - on my own layouts). 
• With an additional track it doesn't have to be confined to the modelled area of a layout. - You can have two, even three tracks emerging from staging... you decide what they are.
• The difference is in the designation.
• This applies with both the real RR and your model.
• Dealing with the model -  If you say that one track is a Single line Main and the track next to it is a Passing Siding you run most trains through on the Main track regardless of direction and then do what you want with the additional track.
• There is no reason why both main tracks and additional tracks shouldn't run right through the modelled area.  In this case a train may be switched onto the additional track off scene and switch back from it to the Main off scene on the other end of the layout.  All you have to do is sort out the combination of the staging track leads and your schedule.  The cost in switches and compexity of working them can be higher or lower.  generally the more ability you want to build in to get from every road to every road the more expensib=ve and more comlex it will be.  BUT, if you have fewer options the more you will have to figure out your operating - this can mean that the ops are more interesting.
• If the additional track runs right through you have several choices of what happens on scene. - The Main can live in glorious isolation. - You can put in a crossover in one direction. - Ditto the other direction. - Ditto both directions ... this may be two crossovers or one scissors crossover.  (Even with a scissors the tracks don't have to be parralel or at the normal track spacing).
• The additional track may end on scene.  In this case you begin to get a bottleneck for traffic - IF you want to.  Trains on the end with two tracks may have to wait while opposing trains go clear (and)/or other trains over take.  This can make ops far more interesting.
• With the previous example you can really get complicated as it effectively doubles up (at least) the last point --- e.g. you can have a WB holding in the additional track one side of the scissors and an EB holding the other side while either an E

[Hudson]

Actually, I read you loud and clear!

It makes sense, a good design addresses types of operation, is flexible and is designed with a certain capacity in mind.

As operators it does not make sense to restrict use of an asset for the sake of operational designations. If an asset is available and it will help achieve an operational objective it should then be employed in whatever specific capacity necessary at the time.

Simple isn't it?

[john galt]

I read with great interest and amazement all the responses. You all missed it.  You have to apply the "Tim the tool man Taylor" school of thought that guides all he men macho types... even us model railroaders.  bigger is better and if you have it , it aint braggin!!!!

side note.. I was asked why I have model trains( I hate that question in that form..its MODEL TRAINS!!!!!)

answer.. BECAUSE MY WIFE WONT LET ME HAVE REAL TRAINS...YET

 

LONG LIVE TAGGERT TRANSCONTINENTAL

[nbrodar]

The Timetable will designate who controls what.  Main Tracks are controlled by the Dispatcher.  Other Then Main Track will be under the Yardmaster's control. (These are generalizations and I'm including Controlled Sidings with Main Tracks for simplincity.)

BTW, Yard Limits (Rule 93) apply to Main Tracks only.  Tracks within Yard Limits are still under the Dispatcher's control. 

The yard I supervise has four "main" tracks for traffic in and out.  According to the Timetable... Tracks 1 & 2 are designated 1 Main and 2 Main and are controlled by the DS and governed by signal indication.  Tracks 3 & 4 are designated 3 Yard and 4 Yard and under control of the Yardmaster. 

Movement on 3 & 4 are governed by signal indication, but you need permission from the YM to occupy them.  The YM needs the DS to up the signal up, but once the signal is up, the YM has exclusive control over the track.  In fact, some of the signals are set up so once the circuit is cleared, it comes right back up.

Nick

[Dave-the-Train]

I left the last little effort thinking "I'm getting something wrong here".

Whether I was way out or just calling the additional track the wrong name(s) I couldn't figure out.

So I come back to it and Nick hits me with his last post!

Okay... I do know that the timetable will do the designating... Just forgot .  (You see we seperate Timetable [which only shows train times] from the Rule Book [which only has Rules] from the Sectional Appendix [which shows track diagrams of the Main Tracks and access to/from them - and a few other bits] from the General Appendix and from some very specific stuff like Signalmen's Regulations.  This probably seems like a huge amount of rules and instructions - basically I guess it is... but anyone who has access to the piles of paper anywhere in the country can look up the bit(s) they need and figure out what the local set-up is and what the local working will be ... within a month or two ).

"BTW, Yard Limits (Rule 93) apply to Main Tracks only.  Tracks within Yard Limits are still under the Dispatcher's control". 

So, if I have this right...

Main track is split between:-

1.  "Pure Main" under the DS's control - on which Trains travel
2. Main Track that is designated as "Yard Limits" under the DS's control - on which trains do various things to do with sorting the cars, getting power on and off the trains and loading/unloading.
3. Not sure if this exists... Access to/from other tracks -                                                 -in freight/loco/carriage/MoW/industry/other yards that are not under the DS's control -- That you MUST have permission from the DS to move out from and permission from someone else to move into.
4. I guess that "3" is the "Other Than Main Track" under the Yard Master's control.
5. It looks to me like Tracks 1 thru 4 are the "Swap-over territory.  Is that right?
6. It also looks to me like 1 and 2 the DS can direct trains into (and out of?) without verbal communication -  Engineers work their trains on signal indication.
7. AND 3 and 4 are signal indication same as 1 and 2 BUT you also have to have verbal instructions/permission.
8. Am I right in thinking that these tracks link to more tracks that are all under the sole control of the YM?  Worked on verbal/radio/handsignal control?
9. If I'm getting this right tracks 1 thru 4 are like airlocks on a spaceship between "Inside and Outside"  -- Maybe, if I take the analogy further - tracks 1 and 2 are controlled by the ship's Captain while tracks 3 and 4 are controlled by the ship's captain AND the loadmaster?  Would that be about right?
10. Nick!  You broke into "Railspeak"! "The YM needs the DS to up the signal up, but once the signal is up, the YM has exclusive control over the track.  In fact, some of the signals are set up so once the circuit is cleared, it comes right back up". -- By "Up the signal up" I take it you mean "Clear the signal to a proceed aspect"?  (When I take a signal on local control we unnoficiallyb talk about "Turning a Signal Down".  This doesn't want to get onto the phone recordings!  Again the official version is to "Key the Signal (from a proceed aspect) to Red".  Giving it back is unnoficially "Keying it back Up" / officially "Restoring the Signal to Auto Working / A Proceed Aspect".  (FWIW we are not allowed to take a signal if it is showing Red and when we give it back it must go to a proceed aspect for the Signalman to accept it as given back).).
11. When the signal is not up who has the track?  I'm figuring only the DS.  If so - does the YM never get to "own" tracks 1 and 2?
12. Looking at configuration... Are track 1 thru 4 to one side of the Main?  With the other yard tracks off somewhere beyond them?
13. Are the Main tracks past the complex/facility physically seperate / alongside tracks 1 thru 4 and/or the yard?
14. Could the Main tracks be designated as Yard Limits and worked in the same way as tracks 1 and 2 and/or 3 and 4? If I'm getting my head round this right what you are doing with tracks 1 thru 4 is similar to our "Station Yard Working".  This applies to designated tracks and lets things go on that are not normally permitted out on the "Running Lines" / "ordinary Main tracks" under a specified person's instructions other than the DS in your case and the Signalman in our case.
15. In your last bit the signals come right back up... so this means that the tracks normally clear to give the YM permission to use them and this has to be taken away (by signal indication) by the DS over-riding the auto circuit?  Is that correct?

 PHEW!

This is great though!  I may actually be getting my head round some US operating practice!

 

[BRAKIE]

Guys,The last time I visited NS Bellevue Terminal(3 weeks ago) the yard tracks was controlled by the yardmaster..The DS only controlled the A/D tracks and bypass tracks.You will find no signals in the Bellevue yard except at the entrance to the yard and on departure tracks.

 

[nbrodar]

As they often say a picture is worth a thousand words:

The black lines are the Main (1 & 2).  They are controlled by the Dispatcher and continue east and west to other points.  The blue lines are 3 & 4 Yard, signaled tracks under control of the Yardmaster.  3 & 4 Yard come togther and then join 2 Main at the east end. The green lines are 3 Runner, the system tracks that connects the yard to everything else.

I can request head room out toward 1 & 2, but the DS will have to give a signal everytime.  When I ask for the signal out 3 or 4, the DS gives the signal once.  The only time the signals governing the yard to 3 & 4 go to stop is when someone occupies 3 Runner.  Once 3 Runner is cleared the signal automatically return to proceed.  Note you can only have the signal for 3 Yard or 4 Yard, not both.

Nick

[BRAKIE]

Nick, Can't the DS give you a track warrant for your move? NS uses  Track Form 23A with a permit number and will say "permission by the stop indication at (say) East E-A-S-T Benson.Do not past the East E-A-S-T Col-San signal.Good until release.

[alco_fan]

Wow, what a lot of posturing.

This is very simple. Longer yard leads help in the model because in most cases, fouling the main gums up the works. And model yard tracks are usually pretty short compared to the real railroad.

I'm reminded of a quote on the topic:
"Constant study and investigation are beneficial to determine whether leads can be extended to keep [switch] engines off main tracks"

Did this come from some model railroad author? Nope, from "Freight Terminals and Trains", written in 1925 by John A. Droege, noted real-life railroader. He wrote the book to guide rela-life railroad employees.

I operate on a number of different model railroads and because the yards are busier than real yards of the same size, a separate yard lead makes it fun. On the layouts without decent length yard leads, constantly clogging up the main makes it not fun.

No, every real yard does not have a yard lead, and certainly not as long as the langest yard track. But longer yard leads usually work well on a layout if they can fit into the space available.

Seems silly to opine that a useful suggestion for model railroads is wrong because it isn't always necessary on a real railroad. Usually things are more congested in yards on a layout than on a real railraod, so anything you can do to ease that is worth considering.

Jon

[dehusman]

Main track is split between:-

1.  "Pure Main" under the DS's control - on which Trains travel
2. Main Track that is designated as "Yard Limits" under the DS's control

There is one main track.  There is no "split" at yard limits.  That are many ways to grant authority on the main track, one of them is yard limits.

 

Not sure if this exists... Access to/from other tracks -                                                 -in freight/loco/carriage/MoW/industry/other yards that are not under the DS's control -- That you MUST have permission from the DS to move out from and permission from someone else to move into.

Unless there is some other system, like a signal system controled by an operator or an interlocking the train s on tracks other than a main track do NOT move on dispatcher control.  If they enter the main track in other than yard limits (and a few other exceptions) they need authority from the DS.

It looks to me like Tracks 1 thru 4 are the "Swap-over territory.  Is that right?

 The following comments are oriented towards the prototype.  Modelers can deviate as they see fit.

Tracks are either main tracks or they are other than main tracks.  About the only in between are controlled sidings in CTC. 

Here's the deal.  In order to be on the main track you need authority.  The dispatcher grants that authority.  You do not need that authority on tracks other than a main track (ignoring controlled sidings for the moment).    The yardmaster directs movements on tracks other than the main track but does NOT grant authority.  How he passed instructions to the trains and how the DS granted authority varies by location, era and method.

Some people think that yard limits mean the trains stop at the yard limits and call the dispatcher before coming in.  There is NO requirement in the rules to do that.  They can drive right up the main.  Now if they go in a yard they have to watch out for yard engines and in a large yard they will contact the yardmaster to find out what track they go into.  Whether that is by radio, hand signal, light signal or whistle signals, depends on the era and location.  Evidently the operation in tracks 3&4 are by singal lights, but that doesn't make them main tracks.

The YM and DS don't pass control back and forth.  They have to work together.

Could the Main tracks be designated as Yard Limits and worked in the same way as tracks 1 and 2 and/or 3 and 4?

Prototypically no.  If you are operating on DS controlled signal indication you are either in CTC or interlocking limits.  You can't operate by manual interlocking limits and yard limits at the same time, they are mutually exclusive. If you operate by CTC you can't enter or move on the the main track without DS authority so they are essentially mutually exclusive.

 If I'm getting my head round this right what you are doing with tracks 1 thru 4 is similar to our "Station Yard Working". 

Without seeing what the rules are I would say there is no prototype N American equivalent to what you have described.

In your last bit the signals come right back up...

 It is very common for N American signal systems to  be able to be set in "fleet" mode and some computer systems can be "stacked".

Fleet mode means you set a direction of travel and the system keeps resetting the signal for movement in that direction as soon as the previous train clears.  So if you had 100 trains to go west on track 1, clear the signal westbound for the first train, put it in fleet mode and go to sleep until the 100th train passes. 

Stack mode means you load the sequence of moves you want made into the system in the order you want them to be made.  So if you want a train to come out of of the lead, onto the main, shove back past the switch then line another train into the lead, then bring the first train back by the switch and shove into the lead behind the second train, come back out  and back in twice, then shove back out on the main line the switch for the main and go down the main, you could enter all those moves into the system, then sit back and the system would line switches and clear signals in the order you loaded up.

I may actually be getting my head round some US operating practice!

 

Its a little early to tell. 8-)

Dave H.

]

[dehusman]

Chip,Don't even get me started on those 10 BS yard design commandments. That doesn't wash in a lot of layout designs.

I wouldn't call them BS.  If a modeler follows them, he or she will have a yard that functions well.  If a yard isn't working properly, there is a very good chance that one of design aspects addressed in the yard is why the yard is broke.

Is it the only way to design a yard?  No.

Is it the most space efficient way to design a yard?  No.

Does every yard need everything mentioned?  No.

But that still doesn't mean they are BS. 

Come up with any ten "rules" of yard design and there will be exceptions to them.  If a person is clueless on how to build a yard they certainly are educational on yard design.

Dave H.

[dehusman]

I can request head room out toward 1 & 2, but the DS will have to give a signal everytime.  When I ask for the signal out 3 or 4, the DS gives the signal once.  The only time the signals governing the yard to 3 & 4 go to stop is when someone occupies 3 Runner.  Once 3 Runner is cleared the signal automatically return to proceed.  Note you can only have the signal for 3 Yard or 4 Yard, not both.

This is actually a fairly common arrangement, I know of several yards with this kind of a set up.  Basically all the switches on the drawing are interlocked with the control point on the main track.  the signals are specifically set up to permit moves continually between the yard and tracks 3&4  without the need to request signals.  Any move in either direction is permitted.  the signals only go red if the contorl point is occupied or a switch is lined against a route.  There probably is no occupancy detenction in tracks 3, 4 or the yard, only in the control point itself (and the mains). 

On the other hand a move twoards the mains, 1&2 invloves entering the main track so the dispatcher has to line them up to grant authority on the main track.  The yardmaster doesn't control the signals, they clear them selves based on the position of the switches.

Dave H.

[nbrodar]

Nick, Can't the DS give you a track warrant for your move? NS uses  Track Form 23A with a permit number and will say "permission by the stop indication at (say) East E-A-S-T Benson.Do not past the East E-A-S-T Col-San signal.Good until release.

Nope.  CSX doesn't operate the way.   However, I can tell the DS how many times I need the head room toward 1 or 2 Main and he'll stack the signals in for me.

Dave...3 Yard has no detection, but 4 Yard does.

Some of my crews avoid working this particular yard, because all the signals intimidate them.  I find the set-up very flexible, and have the capabilty to work three trains at the same time.

Nick

[BRAKIE]

Nick,My experience on the C&O under the CSX banner taught me the upper management lack basic railroading skills by the way they started changing things shortly after the formation of CSX in 1980..Its unbelievable that a track permit can't be issued to cover your head room moves.