Zandoz wrote: Oh yeah...right now, big time. Then N scale caught my eye (Kato's Super Chiefs specifically). I was tempted to take the N plunge, but held off remembering the great HO waste, and held off. Finally around the beginning of the year, my wife convinced me to take the plunge...she gave the go-ahead to build a small portable layout in our dining room...she convinced me we'd manage the cost some how. Now, after investing a bunch of money in Unitrack, a couple locomotives and those Super Chiefs..money that could have been put to better use...I've run into a block. I can not come up with a plan that will fit my tiny bit of space and not be something that I know I'll be unhappy with if I build it. I'm spending several hours a day playing on Xtrkcad to no avail. More and more it's looking like it's going to end up being another never gonna happen waste...only this time when waste is even less affordable. <sigh>
Oh yeah...right now, big time.
Then N scale caught my eye (Kato's Super Chiefs specifically). I was tempted to take the N plunge, but held off remembering the great HO waste, and held off. Finally around the beginning of the year, my wife convinced me to take the plunge...she gave the go-ahead to build a small portable layout in our dining room...she convinced me we'd manage the cost some how. Now, after investing a bunch of money in Unitrack, a couple locomotives and those Super Chiefs..money that could have been put to better use...I've run into a block. I can not come up with a plan that will fit my tiny bit of space and not be something that I know I'll be unhappy with if I build it. I'm spending several hours a day playing on Xtrkcad to no avail. More and more it's looking like it's going to end up being another never gonna happen waste...only this time when waste is even less affordable. <sigh>
Zandoz
As in the commercials, "just do it". You've got some Kato Unitrack that can be easily rearranged whenever you get tired of the present configuration. That's the great thing about a small layout - there's very little financial loss in changing things when you want to.
Harold Minkwitz's Pacific Coast Airl Line Railway is a great inspiration to me (http://www.pacificcoastairlinerr.com/). Harold has switched themes and modeling scales twice on the same 4x8 layout (in HO/OO/On30) using the same HO Atlas Snap Track. The same track plan would be easily adapted to 3x5 in N to fit your dining table.
The June 1962 Model Railroader had an article on a table-top HO layout (less than 4ft square) where the author/builder discussed a "changeable" railroad. He would change the structures, scenery, and theme on a regular basis.
And if you want to start even smaller, see Carl Arendt's Micro-Layout site: http://www.carendt.com/. If you get tired of it in a year, take the track up and start over.
At the very least, lay out your track on a sheet of cardboard or similar on the dining table and run your Super Chief. Enjoy it while you can! Then add a portable base, a passing siding, and perhaps a spur or 2. Build a passenger station, and some structures. Add some little people. Try some switching moves. Most of all, have fun!
fwright wrote: Zandoz As in the commercials, "just do it". You've got some Kato Unitrack that can be easily rearranged whenever you get tired of the present configuration. That's the great thing about a small layout - there's very little financial loss in changing things when you want to.Harold Minkwitz's Pacific Coast Airl Line Railway is a great inspiration to me (http://www.pacificcoastairlinerr.com/). Harold has switched themes and modeling scales twice on the same 4x8 layout (in HO/OO/On30) using the same HO Atlas Snap Track. The same track plan would be easily adapted to 3x5 in N to fit your dining table.The June 1962 Model Railroader had an article on a table-top HO layout (less than 4ft square) where the author/builder discussed a "changeable" railroad. He would change the structures, scenery, and theme on a regular basis.And if you want to start even smaller, see Carl Arendt's Micro-Layout site: http://www.carendt.com/. If you get tired of it in a year, take the track up and start over.At the very least, lay out your track on a sheet of cardboard or similar on the dining table and run your Super Chief. Enjoy it while you can! Then add a portable base, a passing siding, and perhaps a spur or 2. Build a passenger station, and some structures. Add some little people. Try some switching moves. Most of all, have fun!
I love what Mr Minkwitz has created...and that's an impressive site...but right away I see basic building blocks for that layout (and many of the other great small layouts I've encountered in this quest) that won't work for my situation. With my site limitation of only being viewable/operable from two sides, dividers bisecting the layout into separate scenes just leaves me with one even smaller viewable scene. Space saving tricks like having sidings crossing each other are not too workable in small spaces with Unitrack because of limited crossing availability...with Unitrack's 15 degree curvature turnouts and only 15 and 90 degree crossings, that popular trick doesn't work.
Again, a lot of beautiful work on the layouts on Mr. Arendt's site, but when you take away the point-to-point switching layouts (which are great for folks who like that sort of thing, but I've not been able to wrap my mind around), the remaining continuous layouts, as beautifully done as they are, are still just "tail chasers" to me.
I know a big part of my problem is a long built up tendency to over-analyze...systems analysis was my career. That rock is meeting the hard place of how do I justify just doing it...which will unavoidably require more be spent and possibly wasted...without at least some plausible idea of what "it" should be, and with little to no budget for the error side of trial and error.
The other big part of the problem equation for me is that for the past 20 years the layouts I've planned and invisioned were room size, not table top. The anti "tail chaser" buggaboo is still well entrenched in my mind.
I've already tried the "just do it" route playing with combinations on the table, and still keep coming back to the "it's still just an oval with the train chasing it's tail" conclusions I got with playing on Xtrkcad..."Just doing it" is why took the plunge on buying an assortment of track before having a plan for "it".
<shrug>
Reality...an interesting concept with no successful applications, that should always be accompanied by a "Do not try this at home" warning.
Hundreds of years from now, it will not matter what my bank account was, the sort of house I lived in, or the kind of car I drove...But the world may be different because I did something so bafflingly crazy that my ruins become a tourist attraction.
"Oooh...ahhhh...that's how this all starts...but then there's running...and screaming..."
I was once into the same type of paralysis you are in. I couldn't foresee ever getting enough space to build the layout I wanted. Then after being on these forums for a year, and visiting the sites I mentioned, I sat down with my wife and discussed the whole model railroading hobby thing. Some conclusions:
1) For various reasons, the kids aren't interested in the hobby. They are now pre-teens, and growing up quickly. The time we have together, even if its conversing over American Idol (they watch, I don't) is valuable to them and me. Take away: still not a lot of hobby time, and nobody else is likely to join me in operating/building a layout.
2) The wife is not really fond of me being down in the basement by myself while she's upstairs doing something else. I'm not fond of that idea, either. Again, I want more time with her, not away from her. Take away: layout needs to be within conversational range of normal activities of rest of family; no basement empire.
3) The wife wants to see something for the money and time I spend on model railroading, and NOT just a collection of moldy magazines. Take away: she wants to see me produce a layout, and it better look good enough to show off to her friends!
Put these take-aways together and it looks like the conditions for my being a model railroader are:
- layout in the family room that does not dominate the room, and allows other family activities to take place there
- some form of shelf layout to start with while we proceed with the experiment
- keep the layout small to very small (or at least built in sections progressively) so it can reach a stage of "displayability" in a reasonable time frame. The benchwork/support structure must be compatible and comparable to our family room furniture.
- keep the layout small to very small because my modeling time is limited, and to date I enjoy model building as much as operating
- re-evaluate where I am going with this hobby at least every 2 years
- give up the hobby if I can't have fun within these constraints.
Enough analysis, time for a male-bonding Saturday morning at Home Depot! I might even get some of the stuff to get started there....
yours in training
Fred Wright
Stress?
The waiting is killing me. What stress?
Trying to research stuff on the internet or find the lowest price on a engine or widget.
Chasing electrical gremlins when I should be cleaning track.
Pounding a window into a laser cut kit instead of taking the time to drill out the opening properly.
Seeing Athearn release the new FP45 engines but NOT IN MY PAINT SCHEME! (Dont look now but the B&O never had that engine)
sure, I can recover a few days in bed and proceed to get a undec model and build out the paint I want.
Stress? No way.
If it got too bad I'd just sell the whole thing on ebay, take the money and break out the Schnapps instead.
Maybe you should not treat this exercise as an analysis of a system. It is merely a compendium of skills and mechanical techniques that allow you to enjoy toy trains moving about in a pretty setting. If you want it to look more serious, or prototypically operational, then a quick read of a couple of how-to's on that subject should get you started in planning a simple track plan..something more than a spaghetti bowl or a simple loop with siding.
I made a highly focused and a determined goal to design a track plan in one evening. I can't say it is unique or original...I know it isn't, but I went through it, kept in mind the elements, and by 10 pm, I had a decent improvement over the first.
Next, a simple estimate of materials, needed implements, and costs, add it all up, you have your list, and go to the CFO.
Fretting over preventable errors is an exercise in diminishing returns. At some point, you begin in a safe first step, cutting main frame lengths, or something. Once you get that done, you are on your way.
Also, a hobby is pure and utter self-indulgence. The most that could be said for it is that it makes you easier to live with. If your significant other can swallow that aspect of it, buy it is more like it , then get to work with the self-indulgence already! Allow yourself the fun, the creativity, the pleasure, the necessary flexibility and patience to pause now and then to anticipate, or to simply decide, if changes are best at this point.
Rigidity is not helpful in this hobby. Nor in life. Not great in any sport on skis or skates, neither.
-Crandell
P.S. - another thing, did you save several of your plans as files, maybe printed them? Take the smallest, and build it on a counter...if it'll fit. Run the track plan under power, and show what it offers to your wife. Explain to her what it offers the limited modeler, and show her how it can be improved in a number of ways. Let her watch. At some point, you will decide to try another configuration, perhaps one you planned, perhaps something entirely different. An idea comes. I would hope, for you (and her sake), that you will eventually hit upon something that gets you excited. That would be the time to begin a bench, if that is in the offing for you, or at least to begin to give that plan some life...run trains on it.
selector wrote: Maybe you should not treat this exercise as an analysis of a system. It is merely a compendium of skills and mechanical techniques that allow you to enjoy toy trains moving about in a pretty setting.
I hear what you are saying, but the analytical thing is just too much a part of me for too long to just suspend at will...even when suspended, it finds cracks and gaps to seep back in. Kid of the old "can't teach an old dog new tricks" thing.
selector wrote: If you want it to look more serious, or prototypically operational, then a quick read of a couple of how-to's on that subject should get you started in planning a simple track plan..something more than a spaghetti bowl or a simple loop with siding.
Already done and continue to do the research thing...two book racks of model railroad books and magazines spanning the last 20 years on either side of me. Most of which have served to build the "you're not gonna be happy watching a train chase it's tail" mind set.
selector wrote:I made a highly focused and a determined goal to design a track plan in one evening. I can't say it is unique or original...I know it isn't, but I went through it, kept in mind the elements, and by 10 pm, I had a decent improvement over the first.
That's how I've spent several hours a day for the last three months or so...no matter how I start, I end up in one of several destinations...."well, that's not gonna fit", "I'll just regret those S-curves", "that'll work...if I only run the trains in one direction...YUCK!" or "The good news is I don't have to worry about lighting the observation car...the locomotive headlight will do that"
selector wrote:Next, a simple estimate of materials, needed implements, and costs, add it all up, you have your list, and go to the CFO.
I am the CFO....and the stress is from it more and more looking like I did not do my job, and miss-allocated funds.
selector wrote:Fretting over preventable errors is an exercise in diminishing returns. At some point, you begin in a safe first step, cutting main frame lengths, or something. Once you get that done, you are on your way.
The bench work is the one thing that is relatively settled on...a 48x74 rectangle is the most I'm gonna have, period. Other than the cost of materials, no problem once better weather returns (My workshop is open-air...otherwise known as the picnic table). Unless I just give up totally (and I'm not there yet...just frustrated), I will probably go ahead with that.
selector wrote:Also, a hobby is pure and utter self-indulgence. The most that could be said for it is that it makes you easier to live with. If your significant other can swallow that aspect of it, buy it is more like it , then get to work with the self-indulgence already! Allow yourself the fun, the creativity, the pleasure, the necessary flexibility and patience to pause now and then to anticipate, or to simply decide, if changes are best at this point.
Have you and my wife been talking? LOL I think the reason for me pushing me to take this plunge again was the "give him something to distract him" line of thought. LOL
selector wrote:P.S. - another thing, did you save several of your plans as files, maybe printed them? Take the smallest, and build it on a counter...if it'll fit. Run the track plan under power, and show what it offers to your wife. Explain to her what it offers the limited modeler, and show her how it can be improved in a number of ways. Let her watch. At some point, you will decide to try another configuration, perhaps one you planned, perhaps something entirely different. An idea comes. I would hope, for you (and her sake), that you will eventually hit upon something that gets you excited. That would be the time to begin a bench, if that is in the offing for you, or at least to begin to give that plan some life...run trains on it.
No, I've not kept the plans...disk space and "failure mocking me" issues. But even the ones I actually got close to completion before hitting one or more of the above mentioned roadblocks, really were nothing more than ovals with a few spurs...nothing of any great loss not to have kept.
I wish it were a matter of negotiating more space or budget with the wife...she's more than supportive, and it would be quick and easy negotiating. But there is no more space or budget to be had...period.
Lately I've been going back to the idea of building a disposeable "skill builder" layout on a slab of 2" foam, using nothing but what I have and a piece of foam...in essence giving up on my druthers and just doing anything to avoid it being a total waste...I've got my nearly 20 year old edition "101 track plans" book here in front of me now. I'll just keep plugging away at it for now.
I wrote a long essay here and tore it up.
Get some track, get a engine and something to run it. Find a spot to run that train. It does not matter where. Just DO it.
Once you actually get out there and hook onto your train at point A and look to drive it to point B all the other stuff will fall into place for you.
It's a hobby. Hobbies are not supposed to be stressful. Our lives away from our hobbies can be stressful. It's your empire, not someone else's. "Good enough" for you and other than that it shouldn't matter.
Read Model Railroader, and soak up the ideas but don't get hung up on trying to replicate the perfectly detailed layout.
My wife and I were just recently discussing how I'm REALLY enjoying working on my new layout. I've re-modeled a room and am now working on the bench work. I'm finding that I love spending time down in the basement tinkering with everything. And it recently dawned on me why.
I work for a very fast paced consumer products company. I have one of those stressful jobs that involves being responsible for everything, but having the authority for nothing. I spend most of my day taking crud from others while my opinions seem to be of little value. Talk about stressful.
But then I come home and start working on my layout. It's great to be able to do things MY way (right or wrong) and work to my own schedule and budget. I'm finding this hobby to be very therapeutic.
So maybe some of you need to find another hobby and maybe I need to find another job.
Stressed out!! What's there to be stressed out about! I've just got all the track work and wiring completed and am about to start in on the scenery. What's there to be stressed out about!?
Let's see, where'd I put that Napoleon costume?
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
Being a college student, and actually have taken off almost a year now, there is the stress of school and related events, social events, and work. I worked and played baseball all summer taking up a large part of my time, when I wasn't doing one of those 2 activities I was resting/sleeping so I could get up and do it all over again. At school I'm pursuing a degree in elementary education so the work load is extremely full. I have time to browse the boards once in a great while, trying to make a return again for probably the 8th time now. I have all these great ideas in my head but another stressor is the money situation. What I earned during the summer goes towards groceries and other things and doesn't leave much for trains.
I'm planning on finding a show that is down near my college this summer so I'll be able to go to that and pick up some stuff. The last time I was at this show I picked up about $200 worth of stuff which included the 5 packs of well cars for about $20 and 2 locos.
It's stressful when you have a good idea or get motivation to do something and you're stuck down at school where all you have is the web to look at other stuff. I plan on repainting the first locomotive I bought when I started and finally place the styro down on the 4x8 and get started. Just coming up with a track plan will be the only challenge.
I guess it does make me stressed when I don't have money to get stuff or when I'm not around it when I get motivated. Being in a town that has a CP main go right through campus basically makes it tough not to think about it when you're in class and can see the train out the window. On my way home all I see is the BNSF main going up and down the Mississippi.
Oh to have my own place someday...
I thought the hobby was stressing me out, until I started my taxes and found out how much I owe... now THAT'S STRESS!!!
Now I keep sneaking off to work on locomotives when it gets to be too much.
Nelson
Ex-Southern 385 Being Hoisted
SteamFreak wrote: I thought the hobby was stressing me out, until I started my taxes and found out how much I owe... now THAT'S STRESS!!! Now I keep sneaking off to work on locomotives when it gets to be too much.
Do you remember the article -- can't recall if it was MR or RMC -- where the guy was one of those that designed his house and basement around his proposed model railroad, and moreover had the basic benchwork part of the house construction work and thus paid for with part of his home building loan. Result: part of the cost of building his benchwork became TAX DEDUCTIBLE! Hats off to such genius!
Dave Nelson
BTW,
Does anyone have any useful points about magnetic couplers (how do you get those @)(*%&!!! things to stay connected, especially boxcars and flatcars. I'm not stressed, honest.
Not a all. In fact, this hobby is typically a stress reducer.
Now I may loose my cool at times and want to throw a certain tool through the window, but I never get stressed out, just frustrated at times. And that frustration usually passes just as quickly as it came on.
Ryan BoudreauxThe Piedmont Division Modeling The Southern Railway, Norfolk & Western & Norfolk Southern in HO during the merger eraCajun Chef Ryan
dknelson wrote: SteamFreak wrote: I thought the hobby was stressing me out, until I started my taxes and found out how much I owe... now THAT'S STRESS!!! Now I keep sneaking off to work on locomotives when it gets to be too much. Do you remember the article -- can't recall if it was MR or RMC -- where the guy was one of those that designed his house and basement around his proposed model railroad, and moreover had the basic benchwork part of the house construction work and thus paid for with part of his home building loan. Result: part of the cost of building his benchwork became TAX DEDUCTIBLE! Hats off to such genius!Dave Nelson
Hmmm.... I think I'll add my model railroading costs to my medical expenses since it's essential to my mental health. Thanks for the idea!
TomStricker wrote: BTW,Does anyone have any useful points about magnetic couplers (how do you get those @)(*%&!!! things to stay connected, especially boxcars and flatcars. I'm not stressed, honest.
Virginian wrote:No, but this board has been known to.
Your note is a classic,,It is hard to type when I am under hysterical laughter!! That one made my day,,THANKS,,,,BDT